4V 820cc V7 conversion

[Turin]

I've gone down the Quixotic path of attempting to make a silk purse out of a sows ear.

My advice would be to purchase a nice low mile 90's CBR600 or equivalent.

[Chuck in Indiana]

let me chime in. I've known Todd for many years, and he's always been straight up with me.. honest and fair. I also know Pete has an axe to grind with him frome getting shafted by one of Todd's "friends" back in the day. Todd also got shafted by that guy. Enough said about that.
Now, on to the 4V heads. They are a collaborative effort by Todd and Mike Wrenn, who posted his first 4V conversion here. They are utsing top notch components. Will they be reliable in the long run? I certainly don't know.
I used Iceblue's Chinese valves, and thought they weren't manufactured very well at the time. Tried them anyway and got 5000 miles before wiping a cam lobe. I *think* that was caused by the unequal lengths of the valves.. but don't know. I would have continued to experiment with the 4V heads.. they are not heron heads, but pent roof, and breathe very well indeed. The engine is a hoot. By that time, though, I had found the Aero engine, and the rest is history.

IMHO, it would be a *very* fun motorcycle. Todd knows his way around suspension, too. The downside is the unkown reliability.

[kramer921]

bpreynolds - that's a very good distinction.  It's true that, no, I don't need more.  The V7 has taken me across multiple road trips and I have no doubt that it will be able to continue to do so.  But more would be nice.  If I had the space, I would definitely keep it and add a more powerful bike into the mix, but given that I live in a city row home, that's potentially an issue.  I hate the idea of giving up the V7, though, so unless something else really knocks my socks off, I'd figure out a way to keep it in addition to a second bike.  The looks of the V9, however, are not for me.  If it had the looks of a V7, I'd probably really dig it.

drawnverybadly - Yes, I've lightened my V7 with Mistrals and once the battery dies (which will be sooner rather than later), I'll be replacing it with a lithium ion one.  And don't get me wrong, it's quick.

Howard - thanks for the link!  I'll definitely dive into that.

Chuck - thanks for chiming in!  It's nice to hear another take on Todd and his work.  I take it you've never ridden one of his and Mike Wrenn's 820s? 

Really appreciate all of the feedback, guys.  It sounds like renting one next time I'm in LA might be the only way to go. 

[Kev m]

Just throwing this out there, but how hard was it for Todd to put the V7 tank on the V9?

That really might be the answer for a whole lot less work than a 4V 820 V7 kit, assuming you're happy with the rest of the V9 ergos and looks.

[oldbike54]

 Mike Wrenn happens to be a friend , and he is a very talented guy , but let's make this simple . What kind of warranty is GT offering on this expensive conversion ?

 Dusty

[pete roper]

let me chime in. I've known Todd for many years, and he's always been straight up with me.. honest and fair. I also know Pete has an axe to grind with him frome getting shafted by one of Todd's "friends" back in the day. Todd also got shafted by that guy. Enough said about that.
Now, on to the 4V heads. They are a collaborative effort by Todd and Mike Wrenn, who posted his first 4V conversion here. They are utsing top notch components. Will they be reliable in the long run? I certainly don't know.
I used Iceblue's Chinese valves, and thought they weren't manufactured very well at the time. Tried them anyway and got 5000 miles before wiping a cam lobe. I *think* that was caused by the unequal lengths of the valves.. but don't know. I would have continued to experiment with the 4V heads.. they are not heron heads, but pent roof, and breathe very well indeed. The engine is a hoot. By that time, though, I had found the Aero engine, and the rest is history.

IMHO, it would be a *very* fun motorcycle. Todd knows his way around suspension, too. The downside is the unkown reliability.

Just to clarify Chuck I got shafted by Todd, not just his lowlife pal. More than once and to the tune of several thousand dollars. I could explain further but I'll just leave it there.

Pete

[Chuck in Indiana]

ok

[Kev m]

Just throwing this out there, but how hard was it for Todd to put the V7 tank on the V9?

That really might be the answer for a whole lot less work than a 4V 820 V7 kit, assuming you're happy with the rest of the V9 ergos and looks.

In case you haven't seen this on Guzzitech:

So the things I personally didn't like on the V9 is the styling of the 4-gallon fuel tank, mid controls, hard seat and flat bars (though I haven't seen the revised controls on the newest V9), all now replaced on mine below (which I can offer as a turn key V7 retro-fit kit if interested, but know it ain't cheap!). And despite how much I don't like the wheel & tire combos on either the B or R, the 16" Bobber wheels get the nod from me as to confidence/feel.

The motor is a nice step up from the current V7 II. However, I had @Gruzzer ride my V9/7 against his GT-Rx[emoji768] V7-820/2V and he said his had more punch than my modded V9. Everyone is welcome to come sample my V9/7, click pic below or RentAGuzzi banner ad above.

Depending on how much you like your V7R, you might consider my engine mod. See; http://www.guzzitech.com/forums/threads/gt-rx[emoji768]-v7r-820-quattrovalvole-info.15435/page-2#post-123379 -- Or ride the V9 and see if it speaks to you. If it does, go for it.
The new T's are very good (I own the new Thrux-R for rental duties) but they've become so refined they've lost my interest. Guzzi will largely always have me for the power delivery, sound and simplicity to work on, despite their chronic small issues.

[Trevor G]

I wouldn't go with both mods if you plan to ride the thing on the highway, because the gearing is too low for the extra power.  With Lario primary gearing it would be better.

I have one of Ed Milich's fire-breathing 850s (his claim) which have a lot of porting work done as well. Incredibly quick for a small block, quicker than my Lario even if you allow for the lower gearing. 2nd to 5th on my Nevada are roughly equivalent to 1st to 4th on the Lario. For comparison it turns 5,000rpm at 75mph in top

Mine is comfortable at 80mph and relatively smooth from 70mph on up, but at those speeds it feels like it needs an extra gear or two. That nervousness at high cruising speeds takes away some of the fun because it is not relaxed, not for me, anyway.

But in the twisties the low gearing does not matter, especially if it is hilly, it just pulls and pulls.

[mjptexas]

....While I've heard great things about the Griso, it's a far too big and heavy bike for me.  At 5'8", 130ish lbs, and doing primarily city riding, it just doesn't suit my needs in a bike.....

I got rid of my V7 and push rod Griso earlier this year and got a Roamer.  IMHO the V9 Roamer is an improvement in every way over the V7.  People mock the tank, but keep in mind it's just a pint short of 4 gallons.  My mileage has run from a low of 46 mpg to a high of 57 mpg.  Blasting down the highway at 75 mph yields about 50-52 mpg.  It needs suspension work, as all 'built to price point' bikes do.  Beyond that, it's a pretty decent bike.

Now for the Griso, I REALLY miss the Griso.  I didn't realize how much I enjoyed the bike until I sold it.  It's in a completely different league than the V7/V9.  Doesn't need major suspension work, but does need the suspension set up properly for the rider.  As for being too big for you, we had a gal in our riding group that was, maybe 5'6" and maybe 140lb (have to be careful about the weight thing).  She had hers lowered an inch and had no issues riding it.

[charlie b]

I considered a big bore kit for my T5 at one time.  Things I thought about were the cost benefit and performance.

A ton of money for a little bit of power increase and then the reliability issues need to be considered.  Yes, the GT setup might get the power you want but will it be reliable?  Replacement parts readily available?  Will it increase the value of the bike or decrease it?

If you want a more powerful, lighter bike then maybe the V7 isn't the right platform.  Maybe an Aprilla, Duc, Beemer, KTM, etc are more the right bike for you.

"Power creep" is one of those things that affects many of us.  You find you want a little more.  Pretty soon that isn't enough and you want a little more.  That's why I'd suggest trying a different bike and see if you will feel limited by the small HP increase on the V7.

[AZRider]

You will find a few weeks worth of reading here.
http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=46f9ab96195407354561e5933b47a6b4&topic=65696.0

Thanks to Chuck's magnanimity one time at the Ohio rally I have briefly ridden the Aero Lario.  It's a hoot!

Howard

Darn Photobucket shut down the links for all of the photos!

[pyoungbl]

Humm, $3,500 plus labor for Todd's engine upgrade.  That sounds like a $5,000 end product.  I have been down that road with a Ducati and would not do so again.  It's much cheaper, simpler, and more reliable to buy another bike that fits the bill in terms of size and power.  You get a known quantity with factory parts and a warranty.  At some point you will part company with the bike and then it's harder to find a buyer for some one-off contraption.  All those mods will be money lost.  With all that said, Ed Milich does offer an alternative:  http://www.guzzipower.com/store/Headwork.html

Peter Y.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Darn Photobucket shut down the links for all of the photos!

I've been holding off on doing all the labor of updating all the photos thinking there might be something illegal about what they are doing and they would have to stop blocking the pictures.
As they said, "this thread is worthless without pictures" so if nothing is done by this Winter, I'll restore them using another host.

[kramer921]

Thanks for all of the input, guys.  It's got me leaning towards giving the R9T a more thorough test.  It seems like not many people have gone with Todd's kit, making the reliability of it a pretty big unknown.

[jas67]

I've gone down the Quixotic path of attempting to make a silk purse out of a sows ear.

My advice would be to purchase a nice low mile 90's CBR600 or equivalent.

Nah -- get a Ducati Monster for that 90-degree V-twin character!

I'm glad I have one in my garage along side my V7 Special and Racer.

[jas67]

Thanks for all of the input, guys.  It's got me leaning towards giving the R9T a more thorough test.  It seems like not many people have gone with Todd's kit, making the reliability of it a pretty big unknown.

For only a couple $k more than I have into my V7 Racer w/ Record fairing, I could've had the R9T Racer.

Given the choice between hot riding a V7 and a factory hot ride like the R9T, the answer is pretty obvious!

Many here knock the boxer motors as lacking character.   The R9T definitely does not lack character.   I've not ridden the Racer model, but, have ridden a bone-stock 2015 R9T, and found it to be very enjoyable with plenty of character and lots of satisfying torque.

The V7 definitely has a much more classic look, but, the R9T Racer is a great looking bike in its own right.

I test rode the R9T and new 1200cc Triumph Thruxton (not the Truxton R, none was available to test ride that day) back to back.   I much prefer the look of the Thruxton, but, despite the 270 degree crank motor that I thought would have similar character to a 90 degree V-twin, perhaps being water cooled mutes too much of non-exhaust related mechanics sounds?    I found the R9T motor to have more character, and found the overall ride more enjoyable.   

[Chuck in Indiana]

^^^^^ I understand what you're saying..but what happens when the warranty runs out? Most of the peoplethat Iknow trade them in on a new one before that happens. That alone keeps me from even going into a dealership..
Gimme a Grease O instead..

[jas67]

^^^^^ I understand what you're saying..but what happens when the warranty runs out? Most of the peoplethat Iknow trade them in on a new one before that happens. That alone keeps me from even going into a dealership..
Gimme a Grease O instead..

I dunno, my Breva 1100 wasn't so great out of warranty either -- two gauge clusters, the second of which only lasted 7k, miles, and a clutch that de-laminated at only 24k miles.

[Kev m]

Maybe the people who trade in BMWs when the warranty runs out do it not because it is NECESSARY, but BECAUSE THEY SIMPLY CAN and WANT TO?

Self-selecting bias to those who want the latest/greatest and can afford it.

[Tusayan]

The tendency towards selling BMWs when the warranty expires has accelerated as BMWs have become more and more expensive to repair, so there is plenty of reason why a buyer would choose to sell one.  As a result, resale values for used non-warranteed BMWs have in parallel dropped to the level once associated with throw away Japanese bikes of prior eras.

[sign216]

The tendency towards selling BMWs when the warranty expires has accelerated as BMWs have become more and more expensive to repair, so there is plenty of reason why a buyer would choose to sell one.  As a result, resale values for used non-warranteed BMWs have in parallel dropped to the level once associated with throw away Japanese bikes of prior eras.

I switched from BMW to Guzzi smallblocks because BMW became dealer-only bikes for repairs.
They used to be thoughtfully designed; you could almost do a complete engine removal with the on-board tool kit.

Alas, now it takes specialized dealer tools just to do routine maintenance. 

Fortunately the Guzzi smallblock (at least the pre-2013 "old" engine) were dinosaurs from the 1970's and easy to work on. 

[Kev m]

I switched from BMW to Guzzi smallblocks because BMW became dealer-only bikes for repairs.


Alas, now it takes specialized dealer tools just to do routine maintenance. 

Fortunately the Guzzi smallblock (at least the pre-2013 "old" engine) were dinosaurs from the 1970's and easy to work on.

When did this happen to BMWs?

What maintenance procedures?

What things can't we work on with current smallblocks?

[sign216]

What things can't we work on with current smallblocks?

I didn't mean to exclude current smallblocks, it's just that I'm more familiar with the pre-13 models. 
The "old" ones definitely have simpler ECU systems. 

[Kev m]

I didn't mean to exclude current smallblocks, it's just that I'm more familiar with the pre-13 models. 
The "old" ones definitely have simpler ECU systems.

I think I could argue either side of that.

What's more simple, a pair of throttle bodies you need to balance, manually set the tps, and use a manual fast idle lever with or a single throttle body that requires no service or manual intervention?

I'm not even sure I'd call the second more complicated to troubleshoot, though potentially more expensive if a component fails.

[sign216]

This is like arguing carbs vs fuel injection.  The things you mention are easy, just an afternoon with a few beers.
The new models have separate ECUs for each oxy sensor and cylinder.  Who needs that complication for a few nths cleaner running.

[Kev m]

This is like arguing carbs vs fuel injection.  The things you mention are easy, just an afternoon with a few beers.
The new models have separate ECUs for each oxy sensor and cylinder.  Who needs that complication for a few nths cleaner running.

No it's nothing like arguing carbs vs EFI.

It's literally arguing primitive, partially mechanical controlled single Lambda EFI vs more electronic dual Lambda EFI.

But what defines simple? More moving components, more complicated linkage, more things to be mechanically checked and set periodically. That all equals more complicated.

BTW, both versions have only one ECU.

[beetle]

You guys crack me up! 

[Kev m]

You guys crack me up!  [emoji23]

Well to be clear I'm coming at this from a position that I think most people greatly exaggerate the "unserviceability" of most modern bikes or cars or....

I'm still curious what makes the BMW's unserviceable, but I whole heartedly disagree there's any real complication to servicing the modern smallblocks.

[sign216]

The Guzzi smallblocks are great, but compare an old airhead BMW to a recent BMW twin,
and hold on to your wallet.  That's where the dealer makes some coin.