4V 820cc V7 conversion

[sign216]

PS Sign216, 'airplane like devices', at least if you mean light aircraft, are exactly like old BMWs to this day, in terms of maintenance.  Light aircraft didn't lose their way, BMW did 

Tusayan, you know what I mean.  A coworker is a former F16 pilot, and he had no idea what he flew, he just flew and left the mechanics to the service pool.  He later bought a bike, and had no idea what kind of engine it had.  He just rode it.

A light aircraft pilot knows Everything about the plane.  A completely different experience.  Different horses for different courses, eh?

[oldbike54]

 Yeah , except light aircraft sales are down . BMW learned from HD , build what people will buy enough of to turn a profit , thus there sales numbers are doing OK . Once again , this is a business, and what a few of us old diehards want is irrelevant . Even the esteemed Mr Roper decries the fact that MG seems to be stuck in 1980 .

 Dusty

[Tusayan]

A light aircraft pilot knows Everything about the plane.  A completely different experience.  Different horses for different courses, eh?

Not in my world, I'm both.

[Tusayan]

BMW learned from HD , build what people will buy enough of to turn a profit , thus there sales numbers are doing OK

That sure made me smile: HD is currently heading down the tubes from following that philosophy, ignoring what is fundamentally right for what sells right now, and BMW is just now starting to face a similar crisis. 

[oldbike54]

That made me smile: HD is currently heading down the tubes from precisely that philosophy, ignoring what is fundamentally right for what sells right now, and BMW is just starting to facing a similar crisis.

 No , HD has lost sales because their prospective market aged out , and the economy tanked . Last I saw BMW was holding their own by building bikes that young and old alike desire . Remember , it was doing exactly what you are asking for that almost killed the MC division in the 1980's . The MC market is down overall , and companies that can't adapt will fail .

 Dusty

[Tusayan]

 Have you looked at the at the average BMW buyer - they are as old as the Harley crowd. 

BMW is now spending money like water developing every imaginable type of bike, money earned selling cars, trying to figure out what to do without any clear direction. I think in 20 years you'll see both Harley and BMW being a shadow of what they are today, unless BMW completely changes direction, with Asian manufacturers having soundly beaten them based on the fundamentals, value and respect for the customer.  Anyway, the 'motorcycle as status symbol' fad will run its course.

[sign216]

Ahh, isn't just like a pendulum. 
The old makers will come back to fundamentals (I hope),
unless they succumb like the many old English marques.

[oldbike54]

 Dunno , around here I see riders in their 40's on R1200 models , and 20 somethings on RR models . Plus , I'll more than likely be somewhere else in 20 years , so it doesn't really matter . I do remember when the first /5's came out and all of the BMW traditionalists just knew that model would kill the company , same with K bikes , and don't even get me started on the howling when the first oilhead RS came out in '93 . I was in the old dealer in Tulsa when he rolled the first '93 RS onto the sales floor , the old guys standing around all just rolled their eyes and sighed , now almost 25 years later we are sounding just like those old guys in '93 

 Dusty

[sign216]

Dunno , around here I see riders in their 40's on R1200 models , and 20 somethings on RR models . Plus , I'll more than likely be somewhere else in 20 years , so it doesn't really matter . I do remember when the first /5's came out and all of the BMW traditionalists just knew that model would kill the company , same with K bikes , and don't even get me started on the howling when the first oilhead RS came out in '93 . I was in the old dealer in Tulsa when he rolled the first '93 RS onto the sales floor , the old guys standing around all just rolled their eyes and sighed , now almost 25 years later we are sounding just like those old guys in '93 

 Dusty

True, true.

Pirsig wanted to know what "quality is."
We still don't know.

I still have my '58 R50.  A 500cc bike with 8 to 1 compression. 
I'm happy with it.  It was my first big bike, back when a 500 was big.
Don't need more, but don't know if that's right.
Just don't know at all.

[Tusayan]

Old people tend to miss the real trends because they are too focused on their own lives and static interests.  In contrast to European developments focused on attracting the eyes and wallets of old, rich, status conscious guys,  I think the more interesting current trend is the reemergence of lightweights, mostly Japanese, ridden by young people including young women.

That trend is what Guzzi is riding successfully with the small block V7, a bike designed in the late 70s, not copying BMW...  copying BMW now having failed for a Piaggio/Guzzi as a business model, and the 2005-on bikes with which they copied BMW having gone out of production.

[oldbike54]

True, true.

Pirsig wanted to know what "quality is."
We still don't know.

I still have my '58 R50.  A 500cc bike with 8 to 1 compression. 
I'm happy with it.  It was my first big bike, back when a 500 was big.
Don't need more, but don't know if that's right.
Just don't know at all.

 Nothing wrong with that , hell , until a couple of years ago I was riding a /5 , and have owned part of a '55 R50 that was fun , even if the suspension was clapped out . Problem is , we aren't the target market anymore . If BMW had even managed to make the airheads meet modern emission standards they still would not sell in 2017 . It is amazing that MG has managed to keep upgrading the small block to meet those standards , but those only sell in small numbers compared to what the other larger Euro companies sell . Even the Japanese have struggled a bit recently , their retro models like the CB 1100 have not been a sales success . Getting old certainly changes our perspective doesn't it ?

 Dusty

[Socalrob]

Nothing wrong with that , hell , until a couple of years ago I was riding a /5 , and have owned part of a '55 R50 that was fun , even if the suspension was clapped out . Problem is , we aren't the target market anymore . If BMW had even managed to make the airheads meet modern emission standards they still would not sell in 2017 . It is amazing that MG has managed to keep upgrading the small block to meet those standards , but those only sell in small numbers compared to what the other larger Euro companies sell . Even the Japanese have struggled a bit recently , their retro models like the CB 1100 have not been a sales success . Getting old certainly changes our perspective doesn't it ?

 Dusty

I kind of thought my V7iii pretty much was like buying a BMW airhead, just made more modern.

[oldbike54]

I kind of thought my V7iii pretty much was like buying a BMW airhead, just made more modern.

 Sorta , with FI , electronic everything , catalytic converters ...

 Dusty

[Socalrob]

Sorta , with FI , electronic everything , catalytic converters ...

 Dusty

I think the catalytic converter fell off when I put the Agostini pipes on.

[Kev m]

  If BMW had even managed to make the airheads meet modern emission standards they still would not sell in 2017 .

 Dusty

I disagree. It too would be riding the wave of hipster minimalism. Sure it wouldn't sell like the wasser-boxer, but it would sell.

[jas67]

Old people tend to miss the real trends because they are too focused on their own lives and static interests.  In contrast to European developments focused on attracting the eyes and wallets of old, rich, status conscious guys,  I think the more interesting current trend is the reemergence of lightweights, mostly Japanese, ridden by young people including young women.

BMW certainly recognize this trend, and have answered with the G310R and G310GS to compete with the Japanese models in this segment; CB300F, CBR300R, R3, MT3 (not yet in the US, but, would be FZ3 here), Ninja 300, Versys 300, Duke 390, etc.

I think even more important to the survivor of motorcycle manufacturers are the 500-700cc middleweights (FZ07, XSR07, SV650, Z650, Ninja 650, CB500X, CB500F, CBR500R).    These bikes appeal to older (non-cruiser) riders who are wanting something lighter, and also to younger riders stepping up from the 300cc class, or even to beginners.    They're in the same weight range as a 600cc super sport, with way better ergos for street riding.    Their twin-cylinder motors provide, IMHO, a way better torque curve for street use, no need to rev the snot out of them to make any power, and more reasonable power levels for the street (50-70 HP).  These bikes are also priced much more reasonably, in the $5,500-$8,000 range, thousands less than 600cc super sports.    This is especially important for the 20-30 year old crowd, many of which are being crushed under student loan debt.

I didn't mention BMW's 800cc twins in this middleweight category, because they're priced a good bit higher than the Japanese offerings.

Have you looked at the at the average BMW buyer - they are as old as the Harley crowd. 

BMW is now spending money like water developing every imaginable type of bike, money earned selling cars, trying to figure out what to do without any clear direction.

I wouldn't necessarily say that they have no direction.   They recognize that having a diverse product line is the key to gaining market share.   They have ADV (R1200GS, F800GS, F700GS, G650GS, G310GS, S1000XR), touring (K1600GTL, K1600GT, K1600B R1200RT), sport touring (R1200RS, F800GT, S1000XR), naked/roadster (R1200R, S1000R, F800R, G310R), retroish/cafe, R9T and it's many variants, super sport (S1000RR), entry level (G310R), maxi-scooter (C650 Sport, C650GT, C650 Evolution) and even bagger (K1600B) markets covered.   Sure, that K1600B bagger is hideous, but, not more so than some of the other bikes in that space.    It isn't like it was a huge investment in an all new platform.   It's their version of the F6B.    I don't know how well bikes sell in that segment, but, so long as they sell enough volume to recoup the development and certification (DOT/EPA, TÜV, etc), then it is a net positive for their bottom line.

The R1200GS, despite being the most expensive bike in the ADV space seems to sell quite well.    I see more of those on the road than any other ADV bike.

BMW also recognize that the future is electric.   They've got an electric maxi scooter, the C Evolution,  that'll likely be a good seller in Europe, and possibly other markets as well.

Harley Davidson have have also made an effort to expand market share, especially in markets outside the US (which is where all the growth is).      They water-cooled 500 and 750cc Street lineup likely are very good sellers outside the US.   I think that their new Softail lineup with breath new life into the company's sales as well.   It really is a big improvement over the old Softail and Dyna lineups that it replaces.    Still, they, and Indian are still somewhat monolithic, focusing mostly on the cruiser market.   That cruiser market is a big slice of the US motorcycle market pie though, so, it works for them. 

[Kev m]

That cruiser market is a big slice of the US motorcycle market pie though, so, it works for them.

That market is much more than half the street bike market in the US. I mean Harley itself still has half then there's the "cruiserish" products from JAPanInc, Triumph, Guzzi,very and even an arguable contender from Ducati and BMW here and there.

But even I have always thought it would make sense for them to branch out.

[bad Chad]

 BMW motortards target market is very similar totheir auto target market.   BMW is not looking for guys who change their own oil on anything.

 My understanding is a light aircraft sales are off largely due to excessive regulation and super high cost.

 Does anyone have evidence that PIaggo is making money off of any of their motorcycle divisions?

[sign216]

   BMW is not looking for guys who change their own oil on anything.

That's the whole issue.  In the past BMW owners reveled in the fine engineering of their machines.
Now, ... it's different.  The bike belongs to the dealer.  You just ride it.

[Kev m]

That's the whole issue.  In the past BMW owners reveled in the fine engineering of their machines.
Now, ... it's different.  The bike belongs to the dealer.  You just ride it.

I think this is just grass is greener syndrome. As Dusty pointed out there have always been these types in their customer base. As others pointed out there are still DIYers in their customer base.

[Tusayan]

In the past BMW owners reveled in the fine engineering of their machines.
Now, ... it's different.  The bike belongs to the dealer.  You just ride it.

That's exactly what they have in mind.  They'll let you know when it's time to bring money for a new one.  Engineering that dependence plus selling the memory of the previous era is how you 'build a relationship' in the eyes of 2017 upmarket motorcycle product managers.  Ick.

[sign216]

That's exactly what they have in mind.  They'll let you know when it's time to bring money for a new one.  Engineering that dependence plus selling the memory of the previous era is how you 'build a relationship' in the eyes of 2017 upmarket motorcycle product managers.  Ick.

You are right.  Argh, I wish it was different.

[Socalrob]

I guess nobody sees the irony in a bunch of oldsters who cluster around a niche brand that sells a few thousand bikes a year bitching about how BMW Motorrad has gone off its wheels and does not understand that if they only resurrected a /5 airhead with 35 horsepower that was idiot proof to work on then all would be great.

[sign216]

I guess nobody sees the irony in a bunch of oldsters who cluster around a niche brand that sells a few thousand bikes a year bitching about how BMW Motorrad has gone off its wheels and does not understand that if they only resurrected a /5 airhead with 35 horsepower that was idiot proof to work on then all would be great.

Niche?  Guzzi makes BMW look mainstream.

And ya know, BMW is mainstream.

Guzzi is mini-niche.

[Tusayan]

I guess nobody sees the irony in a bunch of oldsters who cluster around a niche brand that sells a few thousand bikes a year bitching about how BMW Motorrad has gone off its wheels and does not understand that if they only resurrected a /5 airhead with 35 horsepower that was idiot proof to work on then all would be great.

The /5 isn't very interesting to me. I like a quality, long lived bike built as simple and maintainable as it can be while having performance that's good enough to work within the era of its manufacture.   Some of the early 90s paralever BMWs were good in that regard, today they'd need maybe 80 HP for the current market and that's actually a good number for riding too.  A good rider can utilize about that much power in a 21st century chassis, and the kind of bike being described can be made in 2017 with that much power.

Selecting from what you actually can buy in 2017, I like the Kawasaki Versys more than BMWs comparable bikes.  Honda makes some nice bikes too and respects customer individuality more than BMW while selling about 130 times as many bikes.  Suzuki makes the DL650 which maybe isn't quite as good as it could be.  BMWs closest competitor would be the F800 series with Rotax designed engine and Aprilia designed chassis - both better than what BMW has engineered independently.  But I think the F800 is burdened by being marketed by BMW, with Euro-Gee-Gaws and dealer dependence crapola in play. I can't imagine paying more for a less pleasant ownership experience.

[kingoffleece]

Well, this is interesting to say the least.

A few years ago when H-D "removed" about 30% of their people, including several higher up in sales and marketing, BMWNA brought some of them on.  Now, this begs the question.  Did H-D lay off the top 30 % of it's folks or the bottom?  If you ask my BMW car and bike dealer neighbor you'd have a very interesting conversation about how the bike business is being managed (or not) in North America.

[twinky64]

Hello forum,

It's been about 1.5 years since the last post so I figure enough time may have passed to finally ask:

Strictly from a product experience standpoint, for those that have the 820cc 4V kit installed on your V7, how many miles have you accumulated on your V7 since the guzzitech conversion and how reliable has it been during that time?

I'd like to keep the subject of financial logic of commiting to the retrofit aside. Would appreciate the feedback limted to regarding product performance (durability, reliability, longevity, etc) of the 820cc 4V kit

Thank you kindly

[lazlokovacs]

hey Kramer,

welcome to the forum,

so...

-you've politely enquired for knowledge regarding Guzzitech's modding capabilities and run into the fairly bad rep that Todd has on this forum

-you're saying that aesthetics are really important for you and that you want a light bike, with enough power for decent speed work, and that the bike has to be modern.

Makes sense. I'm in agreement with you that most modern bikes look pretty ugly.

If you're really attached to your V7, you can try and mod it. But i personally wouldn't recommend it.

FWIW My experience with Todd's tuning maps for the 1100 motor was that a- he was very polite and prompt in all communications but b- his maps were very expensive and quite poor. Thanks to the guzzidiag freeware, it's possible to 'read' the maps that Todd created and I wasn't personally convinced by them.

You mention the Ducati GT1000 in your post, I owned one for a few years but unfortunately crashed it. Its a good bike, looks awesome in gunmetal grey and handles much better than the V7 for sure.

As you're looking for opinions - I would say...

 buy something faster if you want to go faster, and the Ducati could fit the bill.

...that said, if you could drop the 'modern' criteria from what you're looking for then I could think of many many beautiful reliable bikes that will do exactly what you want!

(I'm not of the opinion that modern Guzzis are really any more reliable than the old ones...)

Hope that helps

 

[lazlokovacs]

man oh man

I just saw the thread drift and relaised the OP was 2 years ago!!!



Go and ride everybody nothing to see here!!!

 

[jacksonracingcomau]

wot he said
but it was Mike Wrenn on here that fired up the 8v sb thing a few years ago, almost certainly the provocation for my one, had to prove it for myself (650 carbs and points)
 Searched for any follow up on his or the Guzzitech conversions,  never found anything, interesting if any were ever built
Maybe you should ask question on guzzitech forum?