Ceramic Brake Pads?

[rodekyll]

I'm still in my neverending quest to unsuck my brakes.  I have the rears working pretty good now with 4 25mm pistons engaged, 2 per side.  There is another piston per side on a separate circuit I'd like to also use, but I'd like to integrate them with the front brakes to give a little auto-trimming when I pull the lever.

Front brakes are oddly worse than before.  In the old money I had the Brembo 32/30's and had such good response that the front wheel locked up too easily at about mid lever.  The Brembo's had semi-metallic (sintered) pads.  Now I have 30/30 Tokico's, which are dual sided fixed calipers, containing 4 30mm pucks per caliper.

I know that part of the new brake feel is the difference in plunge angles between the conventional teleforks and my newly-installed Leading link.  The wheel is less likely to hop and lock under braking with the horizontaler angle of the LL swingarm.  But the lever is really low (too much travel), and the pads in these calipers aren't grabbing well:  when I can't squeeze any harder the lever feels solid, but the brake action is weak.  I used to haul the trike down from speed to stop using front brake only, and now I MUST add some rear for the front to be effective.  It used to be the other way around.

It seems to me that a pair of 30/30 calipers should take less lever travel to operate than 32/30's.  I'm thinking one or both of two things is happening:  The pistons are retracting too far (grabby seals?) and/or the pads are worn.  Until I can identify the calipers I can't buy a seal kit.  However, the pads for the different size pistons in the same basic caliper casting are all the same.  So I'm considering replacing the old (also sintered-looking) pads with new.

The question is -- what is the best composition for the replacement pads?  I see organic, organic/composite, semi-metallic (sintered), ceramic (also sintered) and Kevlar.  Are there others?  I want pads that grab without ripping up the rotors, don't fade with heat or water, and don't need to be heated up before they work.  Long pad life would be nice, but longer rotor life is nicer.

I don't care for the feel of organics.  They feel mushy and soft.  My research says it's because the organic material compresses some before the brake effect occurs.

The semi-metallic (also a composition, though not organic) seem to do better hot, do worse in wet and cold weather, and chew up rotors.  I'd rather replace pads than rotors.

Kevlar reviews say it's for track day only.

That leaves the Ceramic composition for consideration, v the metallic, I think.  Ceramic says it has a problem dissipating heat, so it also has metallic fibers to help wick heat back to the backing plates, which are heat sinks.  It claims to work well wet and not need warmup, and it is very kind to the rotors.

Who has used these various linings, or something I missed in my research -- and what was your experience?

Also, I found these on ebay:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Front-Ceramic-Brake-Pads-2005-2006-Suzuki-GSX-R1000-Set-Full-Kit-K5-K6-km-/152592813851?hash=item23873d8f1b:g:FTAAAOSw3YJZSKTb&vxp=mtr

Any opinions on these particular pads or the store selling them?  The price (admittedly discounted 50% for some reason) seems low for quality linings.

[oldbike54]

 RK , are the calipers the same as the late '80's GSXR Suzuki OEM ? The sportbike guys seem to like the ceramic pads .

 Dusty

[rodekyll]

They seem to be 2004-07 gsxr calipers -- the radial mount kind.  Without knowing which pistons came in what models I can't tell much closer than that.

[oldbike54]

They seem to be 2004-07 gsxr calipers -- the radial mount kind.  Without knowing which pistons came in what models I can't tell much closer than that.

 Is there any kind of part number on them ? Maybe a casting code ?

 Dusty

[rodekyll]

There is a tiny, sharp stamping on each.  One says 848.  The other says 849.  Those and the big raised logo are the only marking I can find on the exterior.

[oldbike54]

 Those numbers only tell us right/left . Is there a good Suzuki dealer anywhere nearby , maybe one of their parts guys/girls can help out .

 Dusty

[yogidozer]

what are your rotors made of?

[ITSec]

Some so-called 'ceramic composite' pads are actually an organic pad with some small amount of ceramic content added - it makes for an inexpensive pad that the marketing boys can make noise about. Caveat emptor, particularly with lesser-known brands.

True ceramic brakes do require some heat before they work their best and show their racing heritage; ones intended for street use will (to my knowledge) have a greater or lesser degree of organic and resin composite blended in to broaden their range.

Personal opinion - I recommend EBC HH-series double sintered metallic pads. They work under all conditions, don't require warm-up, and in my experience don't harm a quality rotor such as those from Brembo, Galfer, and of course EBC themselves. My rotors on the Norge failed from the floating buttons wearing out before they ever did from pad wear. The HH series pads are recommended for street use on superbikes, and can handle a fair bit of GVWR - handy for your machine.

[yogidozer]

I agree with IT. ceramic pads aren't good on cast iron rotors, I've had good luck with the EBC HH sm pads when you can find them for your application.

[rodekyll]

"Kevlar reviews say it's for track day only."

Where did that come from?
I would not use Kevlar for a track day, the ones I have had way to soft and not well suited for hard use.

Curious?

I wish I could cite the source, but it's just a factoid that stuck during my surfing.  It was repeated enough in different forums that I accepted it.

I'm running stainless 320mm rotors from a Honda CBR, I think.  I'm using them because their offset fits between the wheel and fork and still lets the caliper clear the spokes.

[rodekyll]

I'm thinking the force needed to stop the trike (1120# curb weight) in normal riding would be more like sportbike forces, but the engine brake effect means I don't use them as often as I do on my 2-wheelers.  So they don't get a chance to get very hot unless just the normal drag while rolling heats them up.  Does the normal drag when rolling heat them up?

[Ncdan]

Ok let me throw out my brake pad question as it looks like a good time for it without starting new thread. Are the break pads replacements subject to the bikes year and model or the just what make of brakes?

[oldbike54]

 Yes Dan , the calipers changed over the years .

 Dusty

[ITSec]

According to EBC's reference list:

GSX-R 1000 K4/ZK4 (Tokico Radial Caliper)  04         FA379HH
GSX-R 1000 K5/K6 (Tokico Radial Caliper)    05-06         FA379HH
GSX-R 1000 K7/K8 (Tokico Radial Caliper)    07-08         FA379HH
GSX-R 1000 K9/L1 (Tokico Radial Caliper)    09-11         FA379HH

So the same pad works for all these years of the Tokico radial caliper on Suzuki GSX-R 1000s.  $20-30 a pair (two pairs needed) on Amazon - red-suspender qualified!

[rodekyll]

Ok let me throw out my brake pad question as it looks like a good time for it without starting new thread. Are the break pads replacements subject to the bikes year and model or the just what make of brakes?

You should be able to go either direction for your specs.  I don't know what year or model my calipers were OEM.  But I know they're 4-pot Tokico radials, and the pads for the half-dozen variants of that caliper with 108mm mounts are the same part# in the aftermarket.  So I'm shopping by "Tokico K-series" rather than "Hayabusa" or GXSR . . .neither of which I can spell.

[rodekyll]

According to EBC's reference list:

GSX-R 1000 K4/ZK4 (Tokico Radial Caliper)  04         FA379HH
GSX-R 1000 K5/K6 (Tokico Radial Caliper)    05-06         FA379HH
GSX-R 1000 K7/K8 (Tokico Radial Caliper)    07-08         FA379HH
GSX-R 1000 K9/L1 (Tokico Radial Caliper)    09-11         FA379HH

So the same pad works for all these years of the Tokico radial caliper on Suzuki GSX-R 1000s.  $20-30 a pair (two pairs needed) on Amazon - red-suspender qualified!

LOL
We're getting my two topics intertwined.

I need to identify the caliper by K number to get the correct seal kit, since some have different piston sizes.  The pads are common to all of 4-piston block-type K's -- and perhaps to the identical-looking Brembos.  For pads I just need to be convinced of which composition to buy.  I see HH as the common friction grade in ceramic and sintered.  I'm assuming the organics are GG?  What is Kevlar rated at?

[ITSec]

LOL
We're getting my two topics intertwined.

I need to identify the caliper by K number to get the correct seal kit, since some have different piston sizes.  The pads are common to all of 4-piston block-type K's -- and perhaps to the identical-looking Brembos.  For pads I just need to be convinced of which composition to buy.  I see HH as the common friction grade in ceramic and sintered.  I'm assuming the organics are GG?  What is Kevlar rated at?

Can't help you with the seal kit, I don't have any references for that. The Brembos of that time typically used an EBC FA244HH or equivalent, as was found on all larger Guzzis starting in 1999 (other than the Quota) and is still used today. A scan of the EBC reference shows that the FA379 series was specific to the Tokico, even if the Brembo looked similar.

Here's what EBC says about ceramic pads (source at https://ebcbrakes.com/articles/ceramic-brake-pads/ ):

Do Ceramic brake pads really work and what do they do exactly?

That’s a question a lot of people have and the answer is in fact its just a buzz word for an organic brake pad made with less metallic fibers and perhaps man made fibers. A very good pad that contains some Ceramic PARTICLES is the EBC Redstuff which as a low metallic also has the benefit of low dust.

However Ceramic brake pads are generally a term for a group of pads known as NAO or non asbestos organic pads and EBC Brakes was of course the pioneer of this technology back from its early roots 70 years ago when it was part of the BBA group and manufactured products known as Top Dog in the UK. These Aramid fibers used in Ceramic brake pads are certainly NOT Ceramic fibers because although some good friends from the Far East do actually use Ceramic fibers they are a carcinogen and as dangerous if not more dangerous than asbestos.

The organic pads made by reputable suppliers MAY contain small amounts of Ceramic particles (not fibers) in a granular form but this does nothing more as an additive than the other naturally mined ores that are common in brake pads such as vermiculite or barites crystals that help build a decent brake pad. If you have a car that is fitted with Ceramic brake pads and your dealer or service provider tells you they must be replaced with a Ceramic pad, tell him to read this article because he is in fact blowing smoke. There is NOTHING a Ceramic based brake pad can do that a good non asbestos organic pad cannot.

Aramid fibers came about when the world changed away from asbestos. The fork in the road gave rise to two distinct choices, organic pads or semi metallic pads.

So basically you have it Ceramic brake pads are just a non metallic type pad and essentially a buzz word and you need pay no more attention to people pushing them as a eutopic solution to brake problems as green cheese.

One may believe EBC or not, but they've gained my trust in such matters based on experience. As for Kevlar, it is a brand name for one company's Aramid fibers. Like any synthetic, one brand may meet a different spec than another, but who knows for this application?

[rodekyll]

That dismissive article is talking about "ceramic/organic composition pads", which are simply organic pads with glass in them.  I think they're deliberately not distinguishing between the organic and true ceramics.  I suspect it was written by a marketing guy as a spin on a tech article.  Kind of cuts across the grain of EBC's general reputation.  I give it two thumbs-to-nose.

The guys with no dog in the fight -- the guys selling them -- make a clear distinction between ceramics and organics.  Here are a couple of examples:

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=88

https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/r/advice/car-maintenance/difference-between-organic-ceramic-and-semi-metallic-brake-pads

Sorry, they won't let me cut and paste.

The summary is that ceramic pads are dense ceramics and copper fiber manufactured with a kiln process.  So sintered-ish. They compare to semimetallic, not organic or organic composition.

[rodekyll]

Final answer is ebc HH semimetallics this time around.  I don't think I want to buy my first ceramics mail-order.  I want to see them and quiz the counterman.

Thanks to everyone who played.  Check under your seat for your participation award.  :)