The most "worth it" upgrades - Breva 750

[willard]

The world of non vintage motorcycling is fairly new to me. EFI is a mystery, and everything seems so expensive!

I want to know. For a fairly unmolested 30,000 mile Breva 750, whats the most bang for buck upgrade?

I was thinking about replacing the exhaust crossover, which is relatively cheap. under $100. Other things are not so cheap. New shocks are 300-400 dollars :( But new fork springs are only a little more than $100. Luggage bags and minstral exhausts are crazy expensive...

I got the bike fairly cheaply (under $2000), and I'd like to keep it cheap. But I do want to know what out there that really enhances the experience.

Two upgrades that I have in mind for later are the sump spacer and center stand, but at almost $300 a piece, I can barely justify the expense.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Hagon shocks can be a bit less, depending on what style you want.
http://davequinnmotorcycles.com/cgi-bin/webc.cgi/HAGON_TWIN_SHOCKS.html

I'd definitely want a centerstand, perhaps you can find one used?

[Sheepdog]

Front and rear suspension upgrades and a sump-spacer will give you the biggest bang for the buck. If you wish to travel, luggage/seat/wind protection come next...

[willard]

Hagon shocks can be a bit less, depending on what style you want.
http://davequinnmotorcycles.com/cgi-bin/webc.cgi/HAGON_TWIN_SHOCKS.html

I'd definitely want a centerstand, perhaps you can find one used?

I've looked at all the usual places (ebay, craigslist), but no sign of any used ones. Any idea on what model number Hagon shocks work for the Breva?

Front and rear suspension upgrades and a sump-spacer will give you the biggest bang for the buck. If you wish to travel, luggage/seat/wind protection come next...

Yea, If I can find affordable rear suspension, I may well do front and back upgrades.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Any idea on what model number Hagon shocks work for the Breva?

Dave Quinn builds them to fit you and your bike, so it's best to give him a call.

[willard]

Dave Quinn builds them to fit you and your bike, so it's best to give him a call.

Just sent an email. Thanks for bearing with me.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Hands Down - the Startus Interuptus Fix
$5 for an in-line fuse and bit of wire, what's it worth to have reliable starting?



I'm almost certain the 850 Breva uses the same yellow wire.
I helped with one at the National in JD
The starter solenoid likes 40 - 50 Amps to engage the starter, it's lucky to get 20 through the spaghetti wiring.
The factory wiring is weak with the current going through switch contacts to and fro.
This fix will engage the starter in about half the time it took before.

[ITSec]

"Worth it" and "cheap" are not the same thing. 

Roy is right about the starter wiring, but that's not an upgrade - it's a mandatory fix.

Center stand is #1, it will make living with the bike a whole lot more pleasant.

I'd target the suspension next.

Exhaust would probably be last on my list.

[willard]

"Worth it" and "cheap" are not the same thing. 

Roy is right about the starter wiring, but that's not an upgrade - it's a mandatory fix.

Center stand is #1, it will make living with the bike a whole lot more pleasant.

I'd target the suspension next.

Exhaust would probably be last on my list.

That kind of what I meant, but badly worded. Since it seems more expensive to me, I'd like to make the best, most "worth it", purchases possible.

I think I'm going to wait for a cheaper center stand or alternative before I spend $300 on one of the HB ones.

You mention starter wiring? I'm not privy to this fix, but my bike does have an issue where the starter button seems to do nothing, but I can always get it to start.

[Muzz]

The rolled perf stainless heat shield extensions that my mate came up with. Fit neatly under the existing ones and contrive to look like a factory accessory.

Now, if I could just find the photo........

[timonbik]

Rear luggage rack c/w top box.  Bike is useless with out it.   Rack about $150 and the top box as much or as little as you want to spend.

Tim

[malik]

In spite of the reluctance to spend money (not unusual at all among us lot), after the centre stand, the best bang for the buck with the twin throttle body is still the mufflers. I didn't believe it either, until I put the Staintunes on. However, there plenty of the bikes out there still with stock mufflers, so it's not actually essential, merely desirable. The centrestand however is another matter - you can get by without it, but you shouldn't have to.

[willard]

Makes me wonder why they thought leaving it off was ever a good idea.

[ITSec]

BTW, I have a ZIP file (a bit large, 37 MB) with all the manuals and a bunch of other useful info for the 750 Breva. If you want it, send me a PM with your direct email address and I can forward it to you.

The wiring diagram above is accurate, but there's a bit better explanation and discussion in some earlier threads, such as:

http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=91964.0

I can't seem to find the (rather old) thread where I gave a full description of the fix for a 2004 Breva 750 - perhaps the mods have a better search method.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Quoting ITSec's earlier post (from the other thread"
"It is my contention that this is actually a problem that has the potential to affect any MG from the last 50 years, since they all ran the starter voltage on tiny wires up through the switch. Consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds, as Oscar said (misquoting Johnson)."
 

My theory is the factory don't even know how much the starter solenoid pulls to engage the gear
They don't show the second heavy current coil on any of their schematics and give it just a 15 Amp fuse?
If you measure the current with a multimeter you will see < 10 Amps because the multimeter is too slow, it's only with an Oscilloscope you see the inrush current of around 40 Amps while the second coil is in circuit.

When the circuit gets a bit weak it's not able to pull the solenoid in but still drawing enough current to blow a 15 Amp fuse (my guess 20-25 Amps). If you were able to catch it with the multimeter at this stage it would show the real current.
I have measured a current of ~ 30 Amps with re-freshed ignition switch and factory wiring but more like 40 with the fix.
The time it takes for the solenoid to close the main contacts will drop from 20mS to 10 mS when fixed
Roy

[Arizona Wayne]

Makes me wonder why they thought leaving it off was ever a good idea.

So they could get a little more $ out of you after you bought the bike just like other brands are doing now on new bikes.    I got a Guzzi factory centerstand after I bought my used `04 750 Breva years ago and it didn't cost $300.  Maybe you can still get 1 now new thru a dealer.  All I added to mine is a Rifle Sport fairing, Hepco-Becker 30L hard bags, frame mount kit  and a NonFango universal top case mount I had off another of my bikes, + a 36L Givi saddlebag I use as a top case.  Never found a reason to modify the front forks or rear shocks.  Replaced my mufflers for $100 when my factory mufflers started to rattle with Emgos.  They're a lot lighter, louder, and I like their looks.     Never had an issue with the seat.  I put an on/off toggle switch for the headlight on to save the battery like the Breva comes with in other countries. 

[sign216]

I was thinking about replacing the exhaust crossover, which is relatively cheap. under $100.

No need to replace the exhaust crossover.  If you extend the oxygen sensor wires you can use the original crossover and merely rotate it out of the way.

[timonbik]

Is mufflers rattling a "thing" with Breva 750's.  Noticed my left side rattles when letting the clutch out and accelerating from a stop?

Cheers, Tim

[sign216]

Is mufflers rattling a "thing" with Breva 750's.  Noticed my left side rattles when letting the clutch out and accelerating from a stop?

Cheers, Tim

Tim,

I think Willard might be replacing the exhaust x-over to make for easy access to the transmission drain bolt, which it blocks.

Is your rattling the exhaust, or the normal dry clutch sounds that many Ducatis and Guzzis have?

Joe

[timonbik]

Could be that, that's why I asked.  I rode a friends Duc 740 with a dry clutch.  Sounded like a coffee can shaking with a dozen or so bolts in it.  This isn't that bad. Almost sounds like a heat shield vibrating and rattling yet all appears to be tight.  Thought it might be a baffle but the clutch is also a possibility.  Been doing it for 7000km since I bought the bike and there is no driveabilty issues so I assume all is good.

Cheers, Tim

[willard]

Wow, lots of great info in this thread. Thank you, everyone, for your contributions.

Could anyone explain what an ecu reflash is? I keep seeing all these electronic items like power commanders and I assume it is to modify the ecu to better fueling. I'm not sure it it would be worth the money, since the factory probably tuned the ecu for maximum fuel efficiency and longevity, which is what I'm after. But I hear a reflash is a helpful thing. I'm assuming it basically refreshes the ecu, like maybe reinstalling an OS on a computer would. Would that be helpful?

[sign216]

 Willard,

The primary reason people reflash the ECU, or changing the air-fuel map in the ECU, is to avoid the ever more rigorous emission requirements.  To comply, manufacturers are making the air-fuel mix leaner and leaner, which hurts both longevity and better running.

There are many ways to go around this.  I use a programable ECU from Australia, My ECU  http://www.myecu.biz/MyECU/index.htm
but that only works for older, pre-2013 bikes.  Another technique is programable software, using the old ECU.  GuzziDiag is an example, and it's free shareware!

Shops will also reflash your ECU, which is loading a new map.  But this is $, and is a one-time shot.

To look at examples of dyno runs of 750 bikes before/after ECU mods, look at the Files page of the Yahoo MG 750 group.  There's a dozen there.  https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/MG_750/info

Joe

[M0T0Geezer]

Wow, lots of great info in this thread. Thank you, everyone, for your contributions.

Could anyone explain what an ecu reflash is? I keep seeing all these electronic items like power commanders and I assume it is to modify the ecu to better fueling. I'm not sure it it would be worth the money, since the factory probably tuned the ecu for maximum fuel efficiency and longevity, which is what I'm after. But I hear a reflash is a helpful thing. I'm assuming it basically refreshes the ecu, like maybe reinstalling an OS on a computer would. Would that be helpful?

ECU = Engine Control Unit

Its primary function is to control spark and fuel injector timing, based on real-time integration of sensor inputs for ground speed, engine RPM, throttle opening, altitude, and air temperature .

A "Reflash" re-writes a different version of the "Fuel Map" stored in an EEPROM in the ECU, which is basically a lookup-table that determines the best crankshaft angles for spark fire and injector pulse for each cylinder. The ECU is an amazing bit of electronic wizardry:

 

Here is a link to a reference text file that I maintain to help me with maintenence of my own 50,000+ mile 2004 Breva 750:

  http://www.dansher.com/bikepix/Guzzi/_V7_fyi.txt

'Geezer

[Kiwi_Roy]

Could be that, that's why I asked.  I rode a friends Duc 740 with a dry clutch.  Sounded like a coffee can shaking with a dozen or so bolts in it.  This isn't that bad. Almost sounds like a heat shield vibrating and rattling yet all appears to be tight.  Thought it might be a baffle but the clutch is also a possibility.  Been doing it for 7000km since I bought the bike and there is no driveabilty issues so I assume all is good.

Cheers, Tim

Two skeletons fornicating in a tin bath is a closer description of my Griso

[malik]

The rattles on the 2throttle body 750's could be a few things.

1. The baffles in a muffler could have come loose - one did so on my V7C & was replaced under warranty. (Still in the box, I took that opportunity to change over to Staintunes). The Breva has a different muffler, tho' .

2. A known issue is the occasional failure of the spot welds that hold the inner pipe in the header. It's usually the ones at the bottom end near the muffler that fail. One fix is to drill a couple of holes through the outer sheath & spot weld them properly. If done reasonably well, it is not unsightly.

3. The horns are a known source of mysterious) rattles - the outer body vibrates loose. Test by removing them & riding for a while to see if it makes a difference.  Can be replaced with Fiamm Strong Tones - similar size & a little fatter & a decent noise.

The 15RC ECU (as on the Breva 750 & the 2TB V7's) is usually pretty decent. And doesn't require fiddling with (unlike the later MIU C3 on the later 1TB V7's). Beetle has a free (& unsupported) map for it on www.griso.org that turns off the lambda, or you could turn it off yourself  with Tuner Pro in Guzzidiag's suite of programs. I've found that mostly a hard reset of the ECU (removing the negative terminal on the battery & replacing it) is enough to restart the auto learning function in the ECU.

Mal

[sign216]

While we are talking about rattles, ... I found the exhaust manifold bolts coming loose.
Had to add lock washers (spring washers) mainly because at a glance, they would show when the bolt was backing out.
After those, and a good torque, no problems. 

[Arizona Wayne]

While we are talking about rattles, ... I found the exhaust manifold bolts coming loose.
Had to add lock washers (spring washers) mainly because at a glance, they would show when the bolt was backing out.
After those, and a good torque, no problems. 

I had to go that route on 1 of my VX800 header exhausts.  End of issue.    Never had that issue on my 750 Breva.

[Kiwi_Roy]

ECU = Engine Control Unit

Its primary function is to control spark and fuel injector timing, based on real-time integration of sensor inputs for ground speed, engine RPM, throttle opening, altitude, and air temperature .

A "Reflash" re-writes a different version of the "Fuel Map" stored in an EEPROM in the ECU, which is basically a lookup-table that determines the best crankshaft angles for spark fire and injector pulse for each cylinder. The ECU is an amazing bit of electronic wizardry:

 

Here is a link to a reference text file that I maintain to help me with maintenence of my own 50,000+ mile 2004 Breva 750:

  http://www.dansher.com/bikepix/Guzzi/_V7_fyi.txt

'Geezer

MOTOgeezer

WOW

I almost missed the significance of your post 

Take a close look at what he's put together guys

[willard]

This is awesome.

Thank you for the information MOTOgeezer.

My Breva pops mildly on decel using E10 93 octane gas and E0 87 octane gas. So I'm assuming the ECU may have already been flashed to run more rich. Or is that a misled assumption?

Edit: I just filled up and got 38mpg doing light commuting. 65 percent 45-50mph backroads and 35 percent highway 75mph. This seems a little low. Ideally I'd be 45-55 mpg with 55-65mpg with full highway miles. Is this possible with the breva 750? If so, could my low mpg be linked to my, assumedly, rich fuel condition?

I just aquired this bike a week ago with 30,000 miles, so I have no idea what's been done to it, but it seems completely stock to me.

[malik]

38mpg is low. There's something not right. 45-55 is the usual range, and I think it's unlikely to ever get much better than 55mpg.. Sustained high speed riding (80-85 mph - trying to keep up with big blocks) might bring it closer to 45.

It could be a lot of things, or a combination. So start at the beginning - a full service (oils, filters, tappets, plugs), check tyre pressures, check for the brakes dragging, wheel bearings, that sort of thing. If the air filter & airbox was too filthy, it would be running roughly & perhaps missing at around 4,000rpm.& you'd know about it. Try re-setting the ECU after your service - remove the negative terminal on the battery for a few minutes, then ride for, say, 50 miles. Check the plugs - are they soothed up already? Does the motor idle at 1100 +/- 100rpm? Check that both overflows in the tank are unobstructed.(the tank will have to come off for that I'm afraid). While you are there, drain the fuel & check for water in it., replace with fresh stuff. While the tank is off & empty, I would take out the fuel pump to check the state of the filter & the hoses in there.

When the basics have been covered, see if you can find someone who has Guzzidiag & the cables to check the map you are running & to find out if there are any errors stored. At 30,000 miles the motor is still relatively new & it shouldn't have been molested with too badly. Let us know how you go.