V85 TT Merged Threadfest

[Rick in WNY]

Yeah, my Aero engine makes a whopping 50 hp on the dyno, and it doesn't have any pollution controls. Admittedly, it has a mild (V65) cam, but it's hard for me to see another 30 hp lurking in there. 

Well, let's think about the Honda Civic for a moment.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_B_engine#B16B_.28Type_R.29

The high-zoot B16B engine was 1.6 liters and produced 182 HP at 8200 RPMs... in a mass produced engine designed in the early 90s.
The specific power output is 113 HP per liter...  if the Italians duplicated that in an 850CC motor they'd be getting 96 and change HP, so I see 80HP being entirely doable.

[LowRyter]

I am skeptical of 80HP but they say it's going to be pretty peppy bike. 

https://www.motociclismo.it/moto-guzzi-v85-segreti-motore-intervista-cappellini-70088

The bottom end is based on the V9 but with lighter and stronger components and semi-dry sump, titanium intake valve, different valve geometry, bigger throttle body, improved electronics.  They claim 80hp vs 55 for the V9 and meets euro 4.  No water cooling or multi or OH cams.

[Unkept]

Well, let's think about the Honda Civic for a moment.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_B_engine#B16B_.28Type_R.29

The high-zoot B16B engine was 1.6 liters and produced 182 HP at 8200 RPMs... in a mass produced engine designed in the early 90s.
The specific power output is 113 HP per liter...  if the Italians duplicated that in an 850CC motor they'd be getting 96 and change HP, so I see 80HP being entirely doable.

But the V in V85 doesn't stand for VTEC! ;)

I don't doubt it could be the most powerful small block Guzzi ever, and I will probably like it, but I'm skeptical of the numbers and as Pete said that could have repercussions with stat sheet obsessed magazines and buyers out there.

[bad Chad]

I think some of you are a bit jaded, rightfully so I suspect.  But I wonder out loud how Guzzi could still saying 80hp, if it were not at least close.  First we are talking 80 crank hp, if we knock 15% off which is not unrealistic for drive line loss we are down to 68hp at the wheel.  The run of the mill v9 puts out 53hp at the wheel, so somehow they are going to need to pick up something like 15hp.   Getting 15hp more does sound like a tall order, but a lot easier than trying to figure out how to get 30!

[Scud]

FWIW - my 700cc Husqvarna thumper puts out 70 hp. I find 80 hp from an 850 twin believable.

From the V11 LeMans site: this magazine has the V85 on the cover and promises a ride report.

https://www.motociclismo.it/gallery/moto-scooter/moto-guzzi-v85tt-2019-foto-test-motociclismo

[roadscum]

So this makes them ugly and not so sporty?   

Ugly is in the eyes of the beholder. What I do know is they are more capable when the tarmac ends and the gravel begins and I like that versatility. 

Paul

[pete roper]

FWIW - my 700cc Husqvarna thumper puts out 70 hp.

No, I'm sorry, it doesn't.

[Tusayan]

No, I'm sorry, it doesn't.

https://www.cycleworld.com/2018-husqvarna-vitpilen-701-dyno

Slightly more in actuality, 71 RWHP at 8200 RPM.

[pete roper]

(Sigh.) OK.

As an addendum, right at this moment if I was looking for a new bike the Husky has my name all over it. Having said that I'd no more believe in 71HP than I would in Unicorns or Faeries.

[bmp72]

I am skeptical of 80HP but they say it's going to be pretty peppy bike. 

https://www.motociclismo.it/moto-guzzi-v85-segreti-motore-intervista-cappellini-70088

The bottom end is based on the V9 but with lighter and stronger components and semi-dry sump, titanium intake valve, different valve geometry, bigger throttle body, improved electronics.  They claim 80hp vs 55 for the V9 and meets euro 4.  No water cooling or multi or OH cams.

The last question and answer are about a road model based on this engine, "yes, we are working on a road model that already today rides very, very well" 

[giusto]

I asked our host daughter in Italia to call Agostini in Mandello to ask about the availability of the V85 and  this is what the she was told

“the bike will be officially announced  at EICMA 2018 in November in Milan. The bike will be sold starting from February at the price of 11.000 €.”

This is pretty much in line with what they’vebeen Indicating all along. First time I’ve seen a price.

Cheers

[Huzo]

I asked our host daughter in Italia to call Agostini in Mandello to ask about the availability of the V85 and  this is what the she was told

�the bike will be officially announced  at EICMA 2018 in November in Milan. The bike will be sold starting from February at the price of 11.000 �.�

This is pretty much in line with what they�vebeen Indicating all along. First time I�ve seen a price.

Cheers

Anyone want my Mk 2 Le Mans..?

[Kev m]

Not that it's particularly important, but as I've said before the air-cooled, 2V 696 was originally rated at 79 hp @ 9k rpm, at the crank of course which translates into a very nice ~67 rwhp.

Ducati did later, under pressure from the EU revise it to 74 crank....


Still, I continue to predict this will make something around 60 rwhp which should be delightful. (At least I think that's what I was predicting - Huzo - let me know).

But as usual, I'm the optimist.

[Tusayan]

In an earlier post I estimated 62 RWHP for the V85 engine based on the output of the last high performance 2V cylinder done by Guzzi in the mid-90s.  Given that there is now some evidence that they've fiddled hard with lightweight valves and cam timing, I think it could be slightly more when independently tested by Cycle World or similar on a rolling road dyno, as per the 71 HP Husqvarna test above.  Not more than 65 RWHP.

A (quite durable) 1064 cc V11 Sport makes about 78 RWHP with a pushrod 2V per cylinder air cooled engine.  I'd guess the power output of this might be something like 850/1064 * 78 = 62 RWHP.   The lack of any torque reaction linkage would probably be limiting with any more power than that in any case.

[Tusayan]

Not that it's particularly important, but as I've said before the air-cooled, 2V 696 was originally rated at 79 hp @ 9k rpm, at the crank of course which translates into a very nice ~67 rwhp.

It's amazing what they've done with the small 2V Pantah engine when you consider the same basic design with 750 cc made 53 RWHP in an F1 or Paso in the late 80s.  That's a roughly 25% increase in power with less displacement and almost as good as a carburated SV650 Suzuki (68 RWHP).

[Dogwalker]

Not that it's particularly important, but as I've said before the air-cooled, 2V 696 was originally rated at 79 hp @ 9k rpm, at the crank of course which translates into a very nice ~67 rwhp.

Ducati did later, under pressure from the EU revise it to 74 crank....


Still, I continue to predict this will make something around 60 rwhp which should be delightful. (At least I think that's what I was predicting - Huzo - let me know).

But as usual, I'm the optimist.

As already said, about 10% loss from the crank to the wheel is acceptable, it's what the dynos that measure the dispersion indicates. The last new engines unveiled by Moto Guzzi obtained even a little more (V9, 55ps claimed at the crank, 51ps obtained at the wheel. 12008V, 110ps claimed at the crank, 102ps obtained at the wheel. V7III, 52ps claimed at the crank, 50ps obtained at the wheel.
80ps at the crank, that translates to 72ps at the wheel would be quite an acievement for a 850, 2V, air cooled, Euro4 engine. But I don't see why they should have chosen to lie now.

[Matteo]

As already said, about 10% loss from the crank to the wheel is acceptable, it's what the dynos that measure the dispersion indicates. The last new engines unveiled by Moto Guzzi obtained even a little more (V9, 55ps claimed at the crank, 51ps obtained at the wheel. 12008V, 110ps claimed at the crank, 102ps obtained at the wheel. V7III, 52ps claimed at the crank, 50ps obtained at the wheel.
80ps at the crank, that translates to 72ps at the wheel would be quite an acievement for a 850, 2V, air cooled, Euro4 engine. But I don't see why they should have chosen to lie now.

And when your doing 88 the speedo will read 100 

[Darren Williams]

And when your doing 88 the speedo will read 100 

On my Griso, if I'm going 95 the speedo reads 100. Maybe it's only losing 5% HP from the crank to the wheel.   

[roadscum]

So much blather, little facts. 

Paul

[Huzo]

Not long now kids..
As Dorothy said.. "We're almost there..!"
Then all that's left is a compilation of the comments that have been posted from when the V 85 was first mooted.
"I'll believe it when I see it", is a personal favourite, and a beautifully succinct statement of the bleedin' obvious.

Let's see now.... who was that..?

[pete roper]

Presumably me? Still not seeing anything on shop floors which was my disclaimer.

So far we've had one 'Review' from a partisan Italian magazine of a 300km test ride. Nothing is really known still about the 'New Bit' which is the engine really apart from the fact it's a 2V pushrod engine with roller tappets and a scavenged sump. It's using the same TB and, (Probably.) ECU as the Cali 14 and associated canbus and electronics.

As I keep saying, I hope it will be a huge success but I think they're over-egging the cake.

Pete

[Scud]

(Sigh.) OK.

As an addendum, right at this moment if I was looking for a new bike the Husky has my name all over it. Having said that I'd no more believe in 71HP than I would in Unicorns or Faeries.

My 701 engine is in the Enduro model, but I think the engine is the same in Vitpilen. I believe the 70hp every time I whack the throttle open. My rear tire (TKC 80) also believes the HP number and is going to give up the ghost at 2,000 miles. I simply cannot keep my hand out of the throttle.  I feel like a fairy riding a unicorn.

[Huzo]

Presumably me? Still not seeing anything on shop floors which was my disclaimer.

So far we've had one 'Review' from a partisan Italian magazine of a 300km test ride. Nothing is really known still about the 'New Bit' which is the engine really apart from the fact it's a 2V pushrod engine with roller tappets and a scavenged sump. It's using the same TB and, (Probably.) ECU as the Cali 14 and associated canbus and electronics.

As I keep saying, I hope it will be a huge success but I think they're over-egging the cake.

Pete

Yeah Pete you have harboured healthy scepticism from the start, but the quote belongs to someone from the other side of the Pacific if memory serves.
I don't have enough knowledge to know what's good or bad, but if the bloke/s that know reckon the design is sound, I don't care if it's got one valve per cylinder and pushrods coming out the blurter.
If you say the design is basically solid..
I'm having one and riding it to London..

[pete roper]

A courageous move. I applaud you.

[Huzo]

I will stand corrected on this, but I was at the Castro 2Hr for what I think was the world 's first public look at the mighty Honda CBX.
Does it follow that  the V 85 has to turn a wheel publicly in Italy first ?

[Huzo]

A courageous move. I applaud you.

What, riding to London or taking your advice ?
Also I'd hold off on the applause, my act may not have a strong finish..

[John A]

As long as it doesn't use the same clutch designed for a 350 cc engine Id like  one in red.

[jacksonracingcomau]

I don't care if it's 70 or 80 bhp at top
If it really has peak torque at 3; peak power at 8,500 I will buy one.
I may be the only one here but spread is the attraction, flat torque.
Doubt I would ever hold 8500 for more than a few seconds, others may need max speed, not I
Just wish we could have RoW version, no abs,tc etc etc, weight of V50 or less
Euro 4 or 5 version for Europe, lightweight one without the bollox would be cheap to build, one disc at front enough. Just for US and Aus etc
But I'm sorely tempted to buy anyway, deal with the haircut afterwards
Test ride when possible

[Dogwalker]

During the test, the journalist of "Motociclismo" was escorted by some guy of the Piaggio Group, all in pre-series V85TT.
From left to right:
Nicolò Codognola - journalist
Mauro Salvador - Performance Engineering Manager
Roberto Calò - former Product Development Manager
Antonio Cappellini - Product Development Director
Marco Lambri - Design Center Director.
Federico Aliverti - Director of "Motociclismo"

[Huzo]

As long as it doesn't use the same clutch designed for a 350 cc engine Id like  one in red.

I will be seriously considering immediate dismantling and having the frame done in Anthracite grey as in Ducati monster etc..
And the tank and panels in proper Guzzi Red.
The black will need to come off the engine as well.
Bugger that Ronald McDonald look. Looks like poached eggs swimming in tomato sauce.
Would make you chunder if you had a hangover.