V85 TT Merged Threadfest

[Knuckle Dragger]

OK.  Exploring further it seems that this mini subframe also serves duty as a headlamp assembly & screen mounting bracket.  So I guess it's pretty essential.  Sorry Piaggio!

I'm still a bit put-out about the contrasty red coloured ones 'though.  To me, it creates a discordant harmonic imbalance.  The darker coloured frames allow this frame/bracket to more harmoniously blend in to my admittedly jaded aesthetic eye.

Just goes to show that even in a bike as lovely (in an ugly-but-beautiful English Bull Terrier sort of way) as this one undoubtedly is, you just can't please all the people all of the time.

[blu guzz]

you have to see it in person to really know.  the red may stand out more in a flash picture.  if you don't like it, you can buy some wrap (like they use on cars now) and cover those in a professional looking way without expensive disassembly and paint work.

[Tusayan]

The bike appears to be much like a Buell in that the painted items are small and there aren’t that many of them.  Perhaps those who have now seen the bike could comment, but the fuel tank appears to an unpainted black plastic unit with painted plastic trim panels attached to the sides.  I’m not a fan of plastic fuel tanks but that is the way to do one, if you must: the plastics that cannot be painted are more fuel resistant and the trim panels can be easily removed, painted or replaced for a color change, possibly leaving the tank undisturbed if the design is done well.

[rocker59]

I rather like the "yellow" ones - they stand out in a sea of boring and pay homage to Guzzi Dakar racebike.

Yes.  Me, too.   

[SteveRivet]

I rather like the "yellow" ones - they stand out in a sea of boring and pay homage to Guzzi Dakar racebike.

Me too.  As a Steeler fan, it would match half my wardrobe just fine as well.

Steve

[usedtobefast]

So rear shock is Sachs (adjustable spring preload & rebound), or optional Ohlins.

Who makes the fork (adjustable spring preload & rebound)? 

So no compression adjustments stock front or rear (from what I could find with google searching).

[Darren Williams]

I rather like the "yellow" ones - they stand out in a sea of boring and pay homage to Guzzi Dakar racebike.

I agree, I think it looks really good and the more I see of it the better I like the looks. To each their own.

[pauldaytona]

Front hydraulic telescopic fork diam. 41 mm (1.61 in)
Stroke 168 mm (6.61 in)

 They look like marzocchi, I don't know if they produce again.

[Darren Williams]

The more I look closely at the pictures, the more little design things I am finding that seem to have a good practical value. I being more impressed with it the more I learn. Can't wait to see one in person.

I'm very happy with what I see of Guzzi's efforts and wish this bike much success.   

[Knuckle Dragger]

Front hydraulic telescopic fork diam. 41 mm (1.61 in)
Stroke 168 mm (6.61 in)

 They look like marzocchi, I don't know if they produce again.

Kayaba.  Guzzi have been using this gear for some time now (V7 shocks).  It's cheap as.... which keeps prices down & profits up.  According to Motorrad, the rear cartspring's a Kayaba too.

At Euro 1200 that accessory Arrow can is a bit steep!  Ridiculous.  I think I'll wait to see what what Agostini or Mistral come up with.

Th original looks pretty good anyway.  There's allen screws on the rear, so maybe you can either core the baffles or perhaps just lighten the standard can a bit.

It makes that aftermarket Ohlins damper a positive bargain at not much over 800!

[zedXmick]

I like the yellow....that’s a fine looking machine!

[pauldaytona]

Kayaba.  Guzzi have been using this gear for some time now (V7 shocks).  It's cheap as.... which keeps prices down & profits up.  According to Motorrad, the rear cartspring's a Kayaba too.

At Euro 1200 that accessory Arrow can is a bit steep!  Ridiculous.  I think I'll wait to see what what Agostini or Mistral come up with.

Th original looks pretty good anyway.  There's allen screws on the rear, so maybe you can either core the baffles or perhaps just lighten the standard can a bit.

It makes that aftermarket Ohlins damper a positive bargain at not much over 800!

 Yes I suppose it's Kayaba. The öhlins would be first thing on my list. Any accessory can is useless. Spend the money on other things.
The local dealer got one in yesterday, so today I sat on it. Demo won't be long from now.
Things are on the right place, the legs fit good in the tank, with my 1m90 lenght. And it feels lightweight compared to the Stelvio I'm used to.

Lots of reviews coming now like:

https://www.motociclismo.it/test-moto-guzzi-v85-tt-2019-come-va-pregi-difetti-motociclismo-72204
http://www.inmoto.it/news/test/primo-contatto/2019/03/06-1990876/test_moto_guzzi_v85_tt_sottoesame/

https://youtu.be/Xo7HWQuSCxY
https://youtu.be/abUPOGgxGO8

[Knuckle Dragger]

Yes I suppose it's Kayaba. The öhlins would be first thing on my list. Any accessory can is useless. Spend the money on other things.
The local dealer got one in yesterday, so today I sat on it. Demo won't be long from now.
Things are on the right place, the legs fit good in the tank, with my 1m90 lenght. And it feels lightweight compared to the Stelvio I'm used to.

Lots of reviews coming now like:

https://www.motociclismo.it/test-moto-guzzi-v85-tt-2019-come-va-pregi-difetti-motociclismo-72204
http://www.inmoto.it/news/test/primo-contatto/2019/03/06-1990876/test_moto_guzzi_v85_tt_sottoesame/



https://youtu.be/Xo7HWQuSCxY
https://youtu.be/abUPOGgxGO8

As a Stelvio pilot, you must notice quite a diff. in size, weight & I'm guessing (when you get to test one) handling.  The Stelvio seems better built than the new one.  By which I mean better finish, better quality (more expensive?) components.  Is that valid?

The V85 has some quality gear,  too.  I particularly like the switchgear, USB outlets on the 'dash' & under the seat.  But some of it seems really cheap 'n' nasty:  the bash plate LOOKS pretty cheesy, & those header pipe guards screwed to lugs on the exhaust are an invitation to rattle & buzz.  Some people have complained about the lack of linkages to both the swingarm & rear shock.  What were your first impressions?

[Knuckle Dragger]

This dude seems to be the first to really give the bike a bit of a workout.  Tellingly, he came away impressed.  He also spoke to some (one??) of the designers/engineers, asking why use cheaper components (Kayaba fork & shocks, el cheapo tubed rims etc.).  The reply was "cost".  Makes sense really. 

If you want premium-priced components, then spend 50% more on a KTM or BMW.  As it is, here's an all-but indigenous Italian bike with 90%+ of components made in or around Lombardy!  At a pretty damn good price.

The reviewer likes the price/performance, engine capability & comfort (sounds like a worthy successor to the Stelvio, minus a few grand & 50 odd Kg), but doesn't like the budget tubed wheels nor the poor standard 'screen coverage.  Something to consider when ticking the options list.  He said (I think, I'm not Italian) that he doesn't mind the cjheap Kayaba suspension.  Occupying this type of 'middle ground' (price, performance, size, weight) in the market place makes the V85 pretty unique.  I think they've got an absolute hit on their hands.  This bike's a bloody pearler.

Another point of interest; well, to me anyway, is the fact that a few reviewers have now stated that the petrol tank is actually 23l, not 21 as previously stated.  Good for a safe 450km or so.  Yes please.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xo7HWQuSCxY

[twowheeladdict]

If you want premium-priced components, then spend 50% more on a KTM or BMW.  As it is, here's an all-but indigenous Italian bike with 90%+ of components made in or around Lombardy!  At a pretty damn good price.

Suspension components are easy to upgrade.  Seats, Windshields, wheels can be replaced. 

Buy a KTM and fry your nuts and still need a different seat.  Buy a BMW and you will still have parts to replace and be way more broke than buying the V85. 

[Knuckle Dragger]

The equivalent BMW (850 Adventure) isn't just epensive either.  It's heavy too. Only just shy of the big lard-arsed R1250 Adventure.  I've looked long & hard at this bike.  It has the same (well, similar I suppose) motor to my Husky (900cc P twin) which in the Nuda at least makes the bike a bit of a gem.  slim, light, responsive & making great noises.

Yet BMW, in transplanting this (Rotax-made) motor into a GS bike, have given it a charisma bypass.  It's boring.  Tragically, mind-numbingly, yawn-inducingly, irreversibly tedious.   No Guzzi ever made in the last 50 odd years - at least none that I've ever encountered - could ever be described as boring.  There's just so much character intrinsic in a longitudinal vee layout.  Even the baby V35s will put a grin on your dial:  reversing an Ercole out of a tight park will make you laugh out loud - in a good way.  Anyway, chains suck for touring.

KTM make great dirt bikes.  I had one (also Rotax-engined) in the mid 80s.  It was a beast, but no way suited for long-range touring.  Sometimes, the bitch just wouldn't start.  At all, for hours at a time.  Then, all of a sudden, when your leg was buggered & you felt tempted to make a bonfire out of the bloody thing..... vroom!   I learned to always shut it down on steep/ish hills.  They still don't seem to be suited to touring in the long, slow, lazy, worry-free way just about any non clipon or rearset equipped Guzzi can.

I've toured a few bikes intermittently across 3 continents over the past 40 years.  I was a late starter on 2 wheels.  But I know what I like, & I'm now getting pretty sure that I know what works best in a variety of conditions & scenarios.  The only real downside to using this particular marque as a remote area tourer is tha lack of dealer representation for parts & repairs.  The world has shrunk astonishingly over my lifetime.  No single part could realistically be much more than a week or 2 away (within reason) from order to express delivery.  With such a 'simple', 'crude' & 'primitive' bike (all in a good way) there's little to fail that a modicum of expertise & common sense can't fix.  OK, I'm crap at auto-electrics, but there's at least one practitioner in most towns the world over.  Europe still has dozens of Guzzi mechanics in just about every country, if not major town & city.

The only simpler bike still universally available is Suzuki's timeless DR 650, which is much more dirt-oriented & a size too small I believe for true long-range, long-term touring.

The V85 is pretty damn near to the perfect embodiment of what I imagine a long-range, allroad touring bike should be.  Just a few key essential additions, covered under the maker's guarantee, a minimum of personal mods (those leaky tubed rims need sealing & the innertubes & valves ditched, for one) & maybe a simpler, collector-free crossover piped exhaust & cored standard muffler & the world's your oyster.  I get a dream-bike that will see me doing what I love for the next (probably my final) twenty years, for around about 2/3 the price of those boring, woefully overrated Teutonic dreadnoughts.  Realistically, what's not to like?

[pete roper]

Just wondering? How much is the Piaggio marketing department paying you?

In jest.

I hope.

Sorry, I see so many disappointments in the V85 it isn't even remotely on my radar.

If it had a sad, lacklustre engine but everything else about it, (Suspension, brakes etc.) was wonderful I could see the merit. Also if it had a great engine but corners had been cut elsewhere? Yeah, I could see that too.

As it is I see a 'built to a budget' uninspiring machine built trading on a once great name.

Over here it's going to be spruiked as a $20,000 motorbike.

I hope it all goes well.

Pete

[Huzo]

Just wondering? How much is the Piaggio marketing department paying you?

In jest.

I hope.

Sorry, I see so many disappointments in the V85 it isn't even remotely on my radar.

If it had a sad, lacklustre engine but everything else about it, (Suspension, brakes etc.) was wonderful I could see the merit. Also if it had a great engine but corners had been cut elsewhere? Yeah, I could see that too.

As it is I see a 'built to a budget' uninspiring machine built trading on a once great name.

Over here it's going to be spruiked as a $20,000 motorbike.

I hope it all goes well.

Pete

So do I...

[blu guzz]

my 2004 BMW RT needed: new seat; new windshield; new suspension to be sorted.  about another $2,000.  as far as i was concerned, these were not optional.
my 2015 Cali 1400 needed windshield and luggage rack.  about $900. these were optional.
my 2007 Victory Kingpin needed nothing.  about $0.  25,000 miles and nothing spent but 2 spark plugs, an air filter, oil changes and tires.

[bpreynolds]

Just wondering? How much is the Piaggio marketing department paying you?

In jest.

I hope.

Sorry, I see so many disappointments in the V85 it isn't even remotely on my radar.

If it had a sad, lacklustre engine but everything else about it, (Suspension, brakes etc.) was wonderful I could see the merit. Also if it had a great engine but corners had been cut elsewhere? Yeah, I could see that too.

As it is I see a 'built to a budget' uninspiring machine built trading on a once great name.

Over here it's going to be spruiked as a $20,000 motorbike.

I hope it all goes well.

Pete

Geez, Pete.  I think of you as having some of the best input on this board for various threads, maybe the best info period on some of them, especially with regard to the 8V.  When I inquired, you’ve even kindly taken the time to send me informational emails and such on various Guzzis I’ve owned.  You are an asset truly to this board. 

But I’m just gonna come on out and say it.  Have you ever thought about giving it a damn rest with tire kicking on the small blocks and newer bikes?  It’s just a thought    Seems like every thread about them there you are, repeatedly, unrelentingly giving them shit for various reasons and yet, I’ve owned 11 different Geese and the V7/V9 small blocks seem to twist and go as good or better than the lot of them, certainly less mechanical trouble for me than the majority of the other Geese I’ve owned which have been afflicted with everything from bad odometers, multiple recalls, etc.  And as much as anyone can complain about corners cut, suspension or otherwise, the fact is that not a single damn one of the Guzzis I’ve ever owned were performance machines even with the best suspension, upgrades, etc. added to them.  I’ve loved them for their character and dependability that is different from most any other brand and/or motorcycle on the market.  And in those aspects, it seems like this new bike would still click those same boxes for me and a great number of other people. 

[Vagrant]

Didn't anybody who speaks English get invited?

[Lcarlson]

The equivalent BMW (850 Adventure) isn't just epensive either.  It's heavy too. Only just shy of the big lard-arsed R1250 Adventure.  I've looked long & hard at this bike.  It has the same (well, similar I suppose) motor to my Husky (900cc P twin) which in the Nuda at least makes the bike a bit of a gem.  slim, light, responsive & making great noises.

Yet BMW, in transplanting this (Rotax-made) motor into a GS bike, have given it a charisma bypass.  It's boring.  Tragically, mind-numbingly, yawn-inducingly, irreversibly tedious.   No Guzzi ever made in the last 50 odd years - at least none that I've ever encountered - could ever be described as boring.  There's just so much character intrinsic in a longitudinal vee layout.  Even the baby V35s will put a grin on your dial:  reversing an Ercole out of a tight park will make you laugh out loud - in a good way.  Anyway, chains suck for touring.

KTM make great dirt bikes.  I had one (also Rotax-engined) in the mid 80s.  It was a beast, but no way suited for long-range touring.  Sometimes, the bitch just wouldn't start.  At all, for hours at a time.  Then, all of a sudden, when your leg was buggered & you felt tempted to make a bonfire out of the bloody thing..... vroom!   I learned to always shut it down on steep/ish hills.  They still don't seem to be suited to touring in the long, slow, lazy, worry-free way just about any non clipon or rearset equipped Guzzi can.

I've toured a few bikes intermittently across 3 continents over the past 40 years.  I was a late starter on 2 wheels.  But I know what I like, & I'm now getting pretty sure that I know what works best in a variety of conditions & scenarios.  The only real downside to using this particular marque as a remote area tourer is tha lack of dealer representation for parts & repairs.  The world has shrunk astonishingly over my lifetime.  No single part could realistically be much more than a week or 2 away (within reason) from order to express delivery.  With such a 'simple', 'crude' & 'primitive' bike (all in a good way) there's little to fail that a modicum of expertise & common sense can't fix.  OK, I'm crap at auto-electrics, but there's at least one practitioner in most towns the world over.  Europe still has dozens of Guzzi mechanics in just about every country, if not major town & city.

The only simpler bike still universally available is Suzuki's timeless DR 650, which is much more dirt-oriented & a size too small I believe for true long-range, long-term touring.

The V85 is pretty damn near to the perfect embodiment of what I imagine a long-range, allroad touring bike should be.  Just a few key essential additions, covered under the maker's guarantee, a minimum of personal mods (those leaky tubed rims need sealing & the innertubes & valves ditched, for one) & maybe a simpler, collector-free crossover piped exhaust & cored standard muffler & the world's your oyster.  I get a dream-bike that will see me doing what I love for the next (probably my final) twenty years, for around about 2/3 the price of those boring, woefully overrated Teutonic dreadnoughts.  Realistically, what's not to like?

As a current Rider of both Guzzi AND BMW, I have a very different take on the middleweight GS series. Yes, the latest iteration, the F750/850 bikes are unfortunately porky and typically are equipped with a lot of expensive and complicated features that might better be omitted from a middleweight. Also, they have brand new engines made in China. BMW used the Rotax engines in the previous GS series, the F700/800 GS. I rented a F700GS last summer for a week-long California tour, not expecting anything special. To my surprise, I found it to be an almost perfect “do anything “ motorcycle. I bought one as soon as I got home.

As for being boring, well, if that means having the proven dead reliable, smooth, torquey Rotax motor in a strong, light (410 lbs dry) agile chassis with reasonably high-quality long-travel suspension, I’ll take it. I concede that it’s not “soulfull” (whatever that means), but working perfectly in virtually every situation is its own form of character. I even like the sound — it seems like the sound of efficiency.

That said (Guzzi content), I very much like the concept — and appearance — of the V85, and I think Guzzi May have hit a sweet spot with this design. We’ll see if they deliver on the execution. I would have been considering buying one, but I wanted to get the F700GS before they were gone.

[Tusayan]

Re “Rotax engines” I don’t believe Rotax is making engines for any two wheeled vehicle any more, and I don’t think they have for some time.  Aprilia and BMW were their main customers, Aprilia after purchase by an engine manufacturer (Piaggio) dropped Rotax when new Aprilia models were designed, BMW apparently owned the design & manufacturing rights to their Rotax engines and moved production to Asia.

I believe a derivation of the 1000 cc V-twin Rotax once built for Aprilia is still used in the Can Am three wheelers.

[Lcarlson]

From everything I’ve seen, the Chinese engines in the 750/850 GS bikes are clean sheet designs — not related to the Rotax engines other than sharing the basic configuration.

[Tusayan]

Some of the recent but non-current Asian produced BMW engines were Rotax designs.  There have apparently been some issues with the current Chinese produced non-Rotax engines, typical BMW design quality stuff.  BMW does not typically produce top quality engines until after a long period of design development.

[Lcarlson]

Some of the recent but non-current Asian produced BMW engines were Rotax designs.  There have apparently been some issues with the current Chinese produced non-Rotax engines, typical BMW design quality stuff.  BMW does not typically produce top quality engines until after a long period of design development.

I have heard of such issues as well, one of the reasons I deliberately chose the proven F700 design. More important to me, though, was the lighter weight and simplicity of the previous models, more appropriate for a middleweight. I also don’t like the appearance of the 750/850s as well as the previous line, but of course, we’re talking GS here....

[pete roper]

Amen brother....   I kept typing and deleting replies to the thread...not wanting to disrespect Pete (as his input has helped me sort my Brevas), but to get him to give it a break.
I suspect I'm a "snowflake" now.   


richy

The question was asked in the post I replied to, 'What's not to like?'. I answered the question. Sorry if just because I refuse to pour praise on a new model from Guzzi it makes me some sort of heretic. I hadn't realised that criticism wasn't allowed. I thought I'd of had to join 'The Clan' for that!

[Knuckle Dragger]

I must apologise for undue criticism of others' choice in bikes.  All views represented above & below are my own only.  I haven't actually ridden BMW's latest 850 Adventure.  The motor is similar to the model it supersedes, which was I believe-Rotax derived.  The variant of this motor that I own is 900cc & contained within an (ex BMW) Husqvarna.  In comparison to a Nuda, the older F800's  motor is doughier, less responsive & much less powerful.  Maybe the newer F850 motor will be better.  But still I suspect ailing from an endemic charisma bypass.

I'm sure it's great in the dirt.  It's also big, heavy, ridiculously expensive, complicated in terms of multitudes of sophisticated interrelated electronic systems, & like the Nuda (& virtually all other motorcycles) chain driven.  As such it's unsuitable.

As an aside, a Nuda is probably approaching the worst possible tourer imaginable.  It's a tight road sprinter, huge fun for an afternoon & sheer purgatory for anything much longer.  The 13L tank is a huge red flag, no?  No luggage capacity, either.

One can theoretically tour anything.  I've toured on old 750 GT sprung valve & 900ss bevel-drive Ducatis.  A woefully unreliable MG Spada.  A Rotax powered KTM GS600.  The Nuda (for a weekend only).  K & R BMWs.  I once met a pair of eccentric Neapolitans at the Guzzi museum who wer on their way, Vespa bound, to Nordkapp!  Wonder if they made it safely back home again?  The only bike that I've owned on which its impossible to tour is another Rotax powered Aprilia RSVR.  High first gear, no room & a cruelly small bar-seat-pegs triangle means I can't ride it any more (arthritis).

Every single bike (& car) that I've taken on tour has broken down.  They invariably do, but the prevalence has mercifully reduced over time.  The irony is that whilst more reliable, & less in need of molly-coddling, the cost of repairs has skyrocketed along with vehicular complexity.  Apart from the usual flat tyres & getting bogged that everybody experiences, there's been disintegrating exhausts (outback corrugations & USSR potholes), holed petrol tanks (twice) in cars, side-cases repeatedly falling off, bad fuel & injector failure, pervasive electrical gremlins (for which my Italian bikes seem to have a particular, but not exclusive predilection).  I was stuck for a fortnight in Leningrad with a remarkably well hidden wet K100 throttle microswitch that disallowed revs beyond 1600!  Gearbox failure, cambelt failure, alloy wheel failure, clutch failure, fuel & water pump failures, bent tailshaft, & I once carelessly lost a work vehicle in a bushfire.

I'm no mechanic.  I know some basics, plus basic maintenance.  I'm no auto electrician, but I know basic electrics.  I stress the word basic.  In remote areas where incidents seem to ALWAYS happen, assistance is exponentially more expensive.  One can I suppose be grateful - but never dependent or expectant - on the little & large kindnesses of strangers, but professional assistance typically costs up to TEN!! times the price of 'local' expertise.  It's also impossible, esp on a bike, to anticipate all contingencies.  Even a basic tools roll is bulky & heavy.  Sometimes extra fuel, water & specialist gear oil should be carried.  Plus all your kit:  camping, cooking, personals, minimal 'luxuries' etc.

For me, a simple, crude, primitive bike is 'better'.  Being 'cheap' makes it affordable.  Being new/ish also helps reliability too.  Complexity adds additional layers of risk (of failure).  Modern electronics are more reliable than old-school electrics ever were (in my experience anyway), but such fancies as electronic suspension, multi-level ABS, traction control, cornering control etc. CAN be both fragile over time and potentially incapacititive.

A new Guzzi will cost me about $20K local currency too.  A new (R series) Adventure bike ready to tour is closer to $35K.  Yes.  $35K.  Nearly 3 years GROSS income, or about a decade's savings!  I personally don't give a rat's that a Gutsie's 'disappointingly' flawed or compromised.  A compromise to what, anyway?  My (admittedly shortly-lived) ownership experience with a 3rd-hand SP1000 was far & away the most fraught & intermittently unrewarding.  More than any other bike I've owned, this one had a particularly memorable mutual love-hate relationship.

A new Guzzi tourer is infinitely more affordable than any other shaftie that I know of.  I can get up to 4 warrantied years of riding out of it before breakdown becomes a potentially dire financial issue.  It's big enough for a load, comfortable enough for a month or 4, I suspect reliable enough to be a viable long-term ownership proposition & hopefully sufficiently charismatic to actually enjoy.

OK.  It's not 'perfect'.  Nor am I.  Some (maybe even most, I know I do) find it a mite gaudy/tacky/compromised/modern/cheap/'inauthentic' (Whiskey Tango Foxtrot that means) etc.  There's as many reasons to dislike it as there is to appreciate its qualities.  But for me personally, at my stage in life & for my own specific requirements, this bike is, if not actually perfect, then still a bloody good effort.

I think it's going to be a huge success, warts & all.  It deserves to be.  It needs to be. If it doesn't sell in shiploads, then I suspect Guzzi (as a corporate entity) will cease to exist forthwith.  They need to consistently sell 75 bikes of all sorts/day, 350/week, 1400/month, year-in-year-out.  Who, even the company's competitors, would realistically wish for that outcome?

No, I don't work for Piaggio.  No I don't get paid either.  However, if somebody from P corporate wants to subsidise my bum onto a new Gutsie then I'll not object:  I'm sure that I too could be another sycophantic, snivelling little arse-licker along with the best of 'em.  But only given sufficient financial inducement to actually do so:  a pre-paid tryst or dalliance with a centrefold model might also achieve a similar result.  I'm open to offers.  In the meantime, please don't accuse me of this crime just yet.  It's disingenuous and unfair.  I'm willing but to date uncorrupted.

[arveno]

In Italy all the magazines are writing good reviews, everyone is super exited , I have not read/watched/heard a bad review yet.

Kinda scary.... I am curious to see in a few months after the enthusiasm will be over..

I still think that for 10 k i would rather buy a left over Stelvio .

ah btw my 1990 GS has tubeless rims... just saying.

  

[Huzo]

I still think that for 10 k i would rather buy a left over Stelvio .



 

That’ll be good for the future of the marque..