V85 TT Merged Threadfest

[twowheeladdict]

So I assume when the fancy TFT display goes kaput the bike will not run, that correct? 

So 10 years from now, TFT goes kaput, you buy a new one?  15 years from now?  20? 

Be interesting to see the list price of that.

The TFT display will probably last longer than someone's interest in the bike.  If it goes kaput, there are aftermarket instrument makers that will provide suitable replacements. 

This is just one example:  http://www.dakotadigital.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=results/category_id=376/mode=cat/cat376.htm

[bad Chad]

I remember reading that exact same comment about the Carc bikes when they came out in 2005. I can still get everything it might need if something fails. After 12 everything still works. Shrug.

[Tusayan]

The TFT display will probably last longer than someone's interest in the bike.  If it goes kaput, there are aftermarket instrument makers that will provide suitable replacements. 

Resale value for a used bike is driven by the expectations of a buyer now, not the priorities of an average new bike buyer in say 2005.  I think that’s why (for example) my 1990 BMW R100GS worth as much or more today than a 2005 R12GS or Breva: the outlook for the older, simpler bike is better.  This is why when I buy a bike I tend to think about a 40 or 50 year supportable life.  That provides resale value in 10-20 years when I might be selling it.  I don’t often buy something and sell it soon after.

The necessity to modify the instruments of a bike from factory spec to keep it running would reduce value to just above zero.

[twowheeladdict]

Resale value for a used bike is driven by the expectations of a buyer now, not the priorities of an average new bike buyer in say 2005.  I think that’s why (for example) my 1990 BMW R100GS worth as much or more today than a 2005 R12GS or Breva: the outlook for the older, simpler bike is better.  This is why when I buy a bike I tend to think about a 40 or 50 year supportable life.  That provides resale value in 10-20 years when I might be selling it.  I don’t often buy something and sell it soon after.

The necessity to modify the instruments of a bike from factory spec to keep it running would reduce value to just above zero.

I agree with your statement but not necessarily the reason behind it.  Your 1990 is rarer, is different, and is unique compared to a new GS, whereas an '05 is just an old semi recent design GS.  The value of your GS is actually less, but guys like me who have the money and want one would be willing to pay up to have one.  Conversely, I personally would buy the RnineT Urban GS before I bought a 1990 R100GS if I wanted the retro style.

If a bike is popular enough there will always be support for it.  Whether it is from the manufacturers, the aftermarket, or an enthusiast on a forum. 

[JohninVT]

Resale value for a used bike is driven by the expectations of a buyer now, not the priorities of an average new bike buyer in say 2005.  I think that’s why (for example) my 1990 BMW R100GS worth as much or more today than a 2005 R12GS or Breva: the outlook for the older, simpler bike is better.  This is why when I buy a bike I tend to think about a 40 or 50 year supportable life.  That provides resale value in 10-20 years when I might be selling it.  I don’t often buy something and sell it soon after.

The necessity to modify the instruments of a bike from factory spec to keep it running would reduce value to just above zero.

Your theory only works when applied to niche bikes.  It's definitely not the case for most motorcycles.  People can't typically ride for 50 years of their life so they certainly don't think of buying a bike with the intention of keeping it that long.  Motorcycles are toys.  Few people buy them as investments or with any intention of keeping it for the long term.  The fact a bike is "simpler" does not add value.  What adds value is exclusivity and an iconic status.     

[Tusayan]

Its not how long I’m going own the bike, it’s how long the buyer has to ride the bike when its sold by me years from now. That affects what he will pay me, and given that I will likely recycle that money into another bike, car or plane purchase it matters to me.  I’ve had lasting value in mind when buying all my bikes and a quick calculation says current market value for all combined is not much short of double of what I paid.  I didn’t buy any BMW K bikes, Goldwings or other fast depreciating bikes and complexity is in my experience an indicator that a bike will be unattractive to buyers a decade or more from when I buy it.

The relative simplicity of the ‘classic enduro’ concept V85TT speaks well for its long term value, but the fly in the ointment from that point of view may be the electronics.  I sure wish I could buy one with most of that stuff deleted.  I think Piaggio very likely won’t sell replacements for that stuff in 20 years, and the owner will then be reliant on repair in the aftermarket which depending on the volume sold may or may not be available.  So if buy a V85TT as I may, my bet will be steep depreciation to almost nothing some day, like a modern BMW. Whether other buyers are unconcerned is irrelevant to me.

[Knuckle Dragger]

That's a pretty funny concept to espouse.  Hilarious.  Don't buy anything that doesn't have a guaranteed 50 year life span!  That's it.  I'm dead.  No foodstuffs that i've ever encountered (except honey I'm reliably informed) lasts that long.  Marriages rarely do either.

Where does it end?  Does the same apply to marriage?  Child rearing?  Zum donnerwetter nochmal!  Therein madness lies.  To be scared that a new product/concept/lifestyle choice/path in life might not 'work out' in some way within the subsequent half century is an exercise in insanity!

I get that some nations/races/individuals are fairly scared of the big bad world, but this takes things to a whole new quantum of weirdness.....

If you like something, anything at all, well enough and it's deemed relevant, beneficial, benign and desirable then you surely aren't going to avoid it on the possibility (or even probability) that it might fail, not within your own lifetime, but in that of subsequent owner/s or possessors. 

This ridiculous concept is just so ludicrously, palpably flawed that I can only assume its a rather obtuse form of humour!  To regard it otherwise would render its author certifiable.  Who gives a rat's rectum whether or not it breaks in 50 years time?  Sheesh!

[twowheeladdict]

Its not how long I’m going own the bike, it’s how long the buyer has to ride the bike when its sold by me years from now. That affects what he will pay me, and given that I will likely recycle that money into another bike, car or plane purchase it matters to me.  I’ve had lasting value in mind when buying all my bikes and a quick calculation says current market value for all combined is not much short of double of what I paid.  I didn’t buy any BMW K bikes, Goldwings or other fast depreciating bikes and complexity is in my experience an indicator that a bike will be unattractive to buyers a decade or more from when I buy it.

The relative simplicity of the ‘classic enduro’ concept V85TT speaks well for its long term value, but the fly in the ointment from that point of view may be the electronics.  I sure wish I could buy one with most of that stuff deleted.  I think Piaggio very likely won’t sell replacements for that stuff in 20 years, and the owner will then be reliant on repair in the aftermarket which depending on the volume sold may or may not be available.  So if buy a V85TT as I may, my bet will be steep depreciation to almost nothing some day, like a modern BMW. Whether other buyers are unconcerned is irrelevant to me.

All those electronics will be easily replaced and upgraded in the future.  You will be able to just put your smart phone on the handlebars and with the aid of an ap some smart kid writes will be able to see everything and more than what the current display shows. 

The part of your theory about value that doesn't make sense is that all bikes that are in good running order from the 1980s sell for more than they were bought for.  Why?  Because todays' bikes are so expensive.  I bought a 1985 Honda Shadow 700 for $2500 new.  All the used ones I am finding that are in good condition and ready to ride anywhere (like I'm sure you keep your bikes) have asking prices much higher. 

[Tusayan]

All those electronics will be easily replaced and upgraded in the future.  You will be able to just put your smart phone on the handlebars and with the aid of an ap some smart kid writes will be able to see everything and more than what the current display shows. 

Some of those electronics and software move the throttle on the V85TT, among other control functions, using proprietary hardware and software included in Piaggio supplied parts that aren't going to be available for purchase in I'd estimate 20 years for an Italian product.  Yes, somewhere, somehow, somebody may reverse engineer the controls on some new bikes as they come along, as people including myself have done on previous bikes and in spite of every effort by the manufacturer to stop it.  But as ever changing proprietary controls are more and more interwoven into the design, it gets harder and less rewarding for 'some smart kid'.

The part of your theory about value that doesn't make sense is that all bikes that are in good running order from the 1980s sell for more than they were bought for.  Why?  Because todays' bikes are so expensive.  I bought a 1985 Honda Shadow 700 for $2500 new.  All the used ones I am finding that are in good condition and ready to ride anywhere (like I'm sure you keep your bikes) have asking prices much higher.

And in contrast, new bikes now depreciate fast and don’t stop until they are very low in market value.  That wasn’t so true before roughly the 90s or 2000s depending on brand.  A Ducati 888 was $14K 30 years ago and a 916 or a Daytona RS was $16K USD in the mid-90s.  Those are all still fairly expensive to buy now.  Part of the way Italian manufacturers have held prices down despite inflation is by substituting cheaper materials and components (plastic) while adding relatively inexpensive electronic features that maintain value as perceived by the new bike buyer.  The issue for me is that this has created steeply depreciating new bikes - a 10-15 year old BMW or Guzzi is worth very little, and it turns me off.  Other places to spend money, like for instance a 50 year old plane, have sucked me in instead 

BTW, it’s hard to imagine the first 8V Ducatis now 30 years old but it’s true.  50 years is actually a very realistic expectation for the life of a motorcycle.

[twowheeladdict]

Some of those electronics and software move the throttle on the V85TT, among other control functions, using proprietary hardware and software included in Piaggio supplied parts that aren't going to be available for purchase in I'd estimate 20 years for an Italian product.  Yes, somewhere, somehow, somebody may reverse engineer the controls on some new bikes as they come along, as people including myself have done on previous bikes and in spite of every effort by the manufacturer to stop it.  But as ever changing proprietary controls are more and more interwoven into the design, it gets harder and less rewarding for 'some smart kid'.

Actually, more and more guys are reverse engineering the brains of bikes and selling reflashes that were unheard of a few years ago.  You had to buy fuel controller that manipulated the fuel air mixture after the computer.  Now you just send in the brains of the bike and these guys send you back a new flash.

20 years from now bikes will be autonomous.  LOL!
 

- a 10-15 year old BMW or Guzzi is worth very little, and it turns me off.  Other places to spend money, like for instance a 50 year old plane, have sucked me in instead 

Now is the time to be buying those 10 - 15 year old bikes.  They can only go up from there.


You must live where bikes are looked at more than they are ridden if you think they will last 50 years.    

[Tusayan]

Actually, more and more guys are reverse engineering the brains of bikes and selling reflashes that were unheard of a few years ago.  You had to buy fuel controller that manipulated the fuel air mixture after the computer.  Now you just send in the brains of the bike and these guys send you back a new flash.

Wow, that's progress. Going forward I can imagine a situation where a guy like you or I can make his own control maps at home using free software, the install them on an EFI computer that is universal to many different models of bikes, Ducatis, Guzzis, Cagivas, Laverda, MV Agustas you name it.  No software would be installed on the computer itself so if your Guzzi ever needed a computer, you could buy one from a Ducati, Laverda, Cagiva, MV Agusta or even some Fiat cars and they would all interchange regardless of who supplied them.  All you'd need to do would be to physically plug in your home made maps into the replacement computer.

Welcome to the early 1990s 

[Huzo]

Wow, that's progress. Going forward I can imagine a situation where a guy like you or I can make his your own fuel and ignition maps at home using free software, the install them on an EFI computer that is universal to many different models of bikes, Ducatis, Guzzis, Cagivas, Laverda, MV Agustas you name it.  No software would be installed on the computer itself so if your Guzzi ever needed a computer, you could buy one from a Ducati, Laverda, Cagiva, MV Agusta and they would all interchange.  All you'd need to do would be to physically plug in your old home made maps into the new/used computer.

Welcome to the early 1990s 

I’m so dumb, I don’t even know if that was sarcasm or not..

[Tusayan]

How soon we forget 

[usedtobefast]

Just looked up V85 TT parts on AF1's website, parts manual is there, but no pricing on parts yet.

So I looked up the TFT display price on a Yamaha Tracer, $335.  On a KTM 1290 it is $573.  Be interesting to see what the V85's will be. 

And what made me think of this is ... I was recently looking at a Quota, 19 years old, and wasn't super worried about keeping the bike running.  But if it had an unobtainium electronic controller part that if it died the bike would then be unusable, that's a whole other world to worry/think about.

So I guess ... hope they sell a ton of these ... hope they use that same TFT display on tons of other bikes ... hope that when it goes kaput 8 or 10 or 12 or ?? years down the road you can buy a new one or find a used one to get your bike going again.

And I guess ... is it confirmed that dead TFT = bike doesn't run?  I'd rather see those just be status displays ... so if they broke then you could not see your pretty tach lights on blinkers on warning or fuel level but the bike keeps running. 

[Kiwi Dave]

And I guess ... is it confirmed that dead TFT = bike doesn't run?  I'd rather see those just be status displays ... so if they broke then you could not see your pretty tach lights on blinkers on warning or fuel level but the bike keeps running.

Maybe it will.  But the lack of a speedo will soon allow you to pay more in speeding fines than the cost of a new TFT dashboard.

[Knuckle Dragger]

What a bunch of nervous Nellies.  All this pathetic angst & hand-wringing over the exceedingly remote possibility that a particular part MIGHT actually fail, AND the yet remoter probability that it may not be either reparable or even replaceable in a few decades.  It won't/it will, so grow up.  It's infantile & unseemly.

If such intangible improbabilities as remote & bizarre as these flights of fancy are going to prevent you from buying a car, bike, television, whatever less than 50 years old then you're idiots.  Because here's the deal.  50 year old technology is actually LESS RELIABLE than the best of contemporary equivalents.  Despite all these pathetic bleatings to the contrary.  Newer stuff almost invariably has superior performance, features and reliability too.  Old stuff is nice because it's old.  Use it regularly and as heavily as one would normally and it'll break, in regular and expensive ways BECAUSE it's old.

Anything & everything will eventually break, however old, well-worn things generally not only fail more often, but usually more catastrophically too.  It may actually cost more to fix too because it's old...

Tell you what.  When I buy my next bike and it actually breaks down irreparably 50 years from now, you can metaphorically thumb your nose at me in spiteful but smugly well-deserved schadenfreude, calling out to me tauntingly "well I told you so, dickhead"!  Except that I'll be long-dead.  You will be too probably.  But in the meantime I'll have had a few decades of relatively trouble-free enjoyment from this supposedly oh-so unreliable 'lemon' of a bike.  I might even possibly have 'too much' enjoyment & actually break it;  maybe myself too!  Oh dear!  Whereas you'll go without because you're scared.  Who's the real dickhead?

[fossil]

Well, in my V7 Stone from 2013 not the electronics caused me worry, but a spring in the gearbox broke and forced me into an expensive repair. I believe this type of spring in used in the gearbox of the smallblock since 1978...

Being an electronician myself I think this discussion is funny.

[kingoffleece]

This got wildly entertaining.
Thank you.

[JohninVT]

Some of those electronics and software move the throttle on the V85TT, among other control functions, using proprietary hardware and software included in Piaggio supplied parts that aren't going to be available for purchase in I'd estimate 20 years for an Italian product.  Yes, somewhere, somehow, somebody may reverse engineer the controls on some new bikes as they come along, as people including myself have done on previous bikes and in spite of every effort by the manufacturer to stop it.  But as ever changing proprietary controls are more and more interwoven into the design, it gets harder and less rewarding for 'some smart kid'.

And in contrast, new bikes now depreciate fast and don’t stop until they are very low in market value.  That wasn’t so true before roughly the 90s or 2000s depending on brand.  A Ducati 888 was $14K 30 years ago and a 916 or a Daytona RS was $16K USD in the mid-90s.  Those are all still fairly expensive to buy now.  Part of the way Italian manufacturers have held prices down despite inflation is by substituting cheaper materials and components (plastic) while adding relatively inexpensive electronic features that maintain value as perceived by the new bike buyer.  The issue for me is that this has created steeply depreciating new bikes - a 10-15 year old BMW or Guzzi is worth very little, and it turns me off.  Other places to spend money, like for instance a 50 year old plane, have sucked me in instead 

BTW, it’s hard to imagine the first 8V Ducatis now 30 years old but it’s true.  50 years is actually a very realistic expectation for the life of a motorcycle.

The 888 was an iconic motorcycle.  Saying it's collectible because it's simple is just...you're just wrong.  Motorcycles that create benchmarks are collectible whether they're simple or technological marvels.  A motorcycle is not more collectible or valuable because it has carbs vs. FI.  It may be more appealing to certain buyers but appeal to a very small, niche group isn't the same as being collectible.

The depreciation of bikes hasn't changed.  They all depreciate similarly for 10-15 years before some begin appreciating.  The ones that appreciate aren't the simplest.  A Kawasaki 99-2000 ZRX1100 has depreciated much less than a 98' Ducati 916.  The ZRX was available everywhere for about 7 grand new.  The Ducati was twice that.  They're within a two thousand dollars on the used market in similar condition.   

[s1120]

Its the immobilizer keys that a lot are coming with/have that scare me...  Working in the car world for many years, Ive seen cars that have been scrapped becouse the cost of keys, computers, and programing has excedded the cost of the car.. 

[twowheeladdict]

What a bunch of nervous Nellies.  All this pathetic angst & hand-wringing over the exceedingly remote possibility that a particular part MIGHT actually fail, AND the yet remoter probability that it may not be either reparable or even replaceable in a few decades.  It won't/it will, so grow up.  It's infantile & unseemly.

If such intangible improbabilities as remote & bizarre as these flights of fancy are going to prevent you from buying a car, bike, television, whatever less than 50 years old then you're idiots.  Because here's the deal.  50 year old technology is actually LESS RELIABLE than the best of contemporary equivalents.  Despite all these pathetic bleatings to the contrary.  Newer stuff almost invariably has superior performance, features and reliability too.  Old stuff is nice because it's old.  Use it regularly and as heavily as one would normally and it'll break, in regular and expensive ways BECAUSE it's old.

Anything & everything will eventually break, however old, well-worn things generally not only fail more often, but usually more catastrophically too.  It may actually cost more to fix too because it's old...

Tell you what.  When I buy my next bike and it actually breaks down irreparably 50 years from now, you can metaphorically thumb your nose at me in spiteful but smugly well-deserved schadenfreude, calling out to me tauntingly "well I told you so, dickhead"!  Except that I'll be long-dead.  You will be too probably.  But in the meantime I'll have had a few decades of relatively trouble-free enjoyment from this supposedly oh-so unreliable 'lemon' of a bike.  I might even possibly have 'too much' enjoyment & actually break it;  maybe myself too!  Oh dear!  Whereas you'll go without because you're scared.  Who's the real dickhead?

 

[Tusayan]

I own and regularly ride ten beautiful motorcycles, two airplanes and three cars so oddly enough I don't think I'm "going without", and won't be any time I the forseeable future    Thinking about money, principally whether objects appreciate or depreciate, is how I got them. 

That plus modifying Guzzi electronics for others and making enough to buy a house, based on knowledge.

One might ask "who's the real loser?", tangibly, and I know the answer.

[Tusayan]

Just looked up V85 TT parts on AF1's website, parts manual is there, but no pricing on parts yet.

So I looked up the TFT display price on a Yamaha Tracer, $335.  On a KTM 1290 it is $573.  Be interesting to see what the V85's will be. 

And what made me think of this is ... I was recently looking at a Quota, 19 years old, and wasn't super worried about keeping the bike running.  But if it had an unobtainium electronic controller part that if it died the bike would then be unusable, that's a whole other world to worry/think about.

So I guess ... hope they sell a ton of these ... hope they use that same TFT display on tons of other bikes ... hope that when it goes kaput 8 or 10 or 12 or ?? years down the road you can buy a new one or find a used one to get your bike going again.

Thanks for that info.  The best bet IMHO if you want a V85TT and with many newer bikes is to buy it, enjoy it and sell it after a few years, keeping it under warranty if you're so inclined.  Or alternately buy a used one in two years, buy some spare parts too and run it a long time, until it's fully depreciated and you've extracted your value through use. Plan on selling it for nothing at that point, just like a car or a late model BMW bike.

[JohninVT]

I own and regularly ride ten beautiful motorcycles, two airplanes and three cars so oddly enough I don't think I'm "going without", and won't be any time I the forseeable future    Thinking about money, principally whether objects appreciate or depreciate, is how I got them. 

That plus modifying Guzzi electronics for others and making enough to buy a house, based on knowledge.

One might ask "who's the real loser?", tangibly, and I know the answer.

Knuckle Dragger was out of line calling you a dickhead.  Then you patted yourself on the back and bragged about your bikes, planes and house before calling him a loser.  I don't think I'd have a beer with either of you based on this thread.   

[Tusayan]

Knuckle Dragger was out of line calling you a dickhead.  Then you patted yourself on the back and bragged about your bikes, planes and house before calling him a loser.  I don't think I'd have a beer with either of you based on this thread.   

Fair enough.  I like facts, not BS and prefer to drink beer with my wife.

[usedtobefast]

What a bunch of nervous Nellies.  All this pathetic angst & hand-wringing over the exceedingly remote possibility that a particular part MIGHT actually fail, AND the yet remoter probability that it may not be either reparable or even replaceable in a few decades.  It won't/it will, so grow up.  It's infantile & unseemly.

If such intangible improbabilities as remote & bizarre as these flights of fancy are going to prevent you from buying a car, bike, television, whatever less than 50 years old then you're idiots.  Because here's the deal.  50 year old technology is actually LESS RELIABLE than the best of contemporary equivalents.  Despite all these pathetic bleatings to the contrary.  Newer stuff almost invariably has superior performance, features and reliability too.  Old stuff is nice because it's old.  Use it regularly and as heavily as one would normally and it'll break, in regular and expensive ways BECAUSE it's old.

Anything & everything will eventually break, however old, well-worn things generally not only fail more often, but usually more catastrophically too.  It may actually cost more to fix too because it's old...

Tell you what.  When I buy my next bike and it actually breaks down irreparably 50 years from now, you can metaphorically thumb your nose at me in spiteful but smugly well-deserved schadenfreude, calling out to me tauntingly "well I told you so, dickhead"!  Except that I'll be long-dead.  You will be too probably.  But in the meantime I'll have had a few decades of relatively trouble-free enjoyment from this supposedly oh-so unreliable 'lemon' of a bike.  I might even possibly have 'too much' enjoyment & actually break it;  maybe myself too!  Oh dear!  Whereas you'll go without because you're scared.  Who's the real dickhead?

So you've never owned a Griso with a non working dash, right?   And a person that has one of those bikes sitting in the garage, unable to run, should comfort themselves that they don't ALL break?  And that person should not wonder "why did they design something where an informational display breaking can prevent the motorcycle from working?  Couldn't they have designed this a wee bit differently so that wasn't the situation?"

And why do you think your thoughts & opinions are "right" and people with different ones you want to insult?   Like I would prefer tubeless wheels/tires but I don't insult/berate people who like wheels with tubes in them. 

[oldbike54]

 Chill fellas .

 Dusty

[Muzz]

Its the immobilizer keys that a lot are coming with/have that scare me...  Working in the car world for many years, Ive seen cars that have been scrapped becouse the cost of keys, computers, and programing has excedded the cost of the car..

A couple of years ago a garage that my son does work for was burgled and the office set on fire.  In the office were about a dozen keys for various mainly Euro high zoot vehicles.  The upshot of this was that many only had that one key.  Not only did the motor immobilize, so did the transmissions.  The manufacturers could not come up with the codes to go with a new key, consequently most had to be scrapped.

Scary stuff!

[jacksonracingcomau]

Maybe it will.  But the lack of a speedo will soon allow you to pay more in speeding fines than the cost of a new TFT dashboard.

my phone already a gps / multi function speedo
problem is not screen but immobilser
i have a ducati scrambler will not run without speedo —— $1200 for new
may be cheaper to fit aftermarket ecu
but stuck in scrub you are walking

[dxhall]

And for those with money in their pockets — a Florida dealer is now listing V85 TTs on eBay.