1400 Griso motor's running......

[Phang]

I set the rev limit to 8250, so I could log data at 8000. It's gets to 8250 very quickly.

Iteration 4 map. Bugger me lonesome, it's smooth. It's like a 1-speed auto. It pulls like a big...pulling thing. There's no need to change gears once you're in 6th. Crack the throttle open from 2000 and it goes like a dog shot up the arse.


 

that sounds like a dream to me who rode with #68 map 

[pete roper]

Y'know, somewhere, in the sort of base, reptilian hind-brain of my soul I really wanted this to be a wash-out. I love my 1200 and really, I don't need anything more than what it offers. But then we built this thing and it sounds like a lot of fun. And one day, soon, I'll get to ride it, and then I think I can see another huge haemoragic loss from my bank account and a lot of weasling by way of excusing it!

Pete

[rtbickel]

Here's hoping that you have a well-stocked bag of weasel standing by

[Huzo]

Are there any points in the standard 1400 clutch/drive train that are beefier than the 1200 ?
Do you foresee any places where the 1200 drive train could struggle with the massive torque boost ?
When do you reckon we'll hear about a side by side evaluation against your 1200 in a real world extended ride report, including how long it takes to empty the Griso "tank"..?
Just reading this thread reminds me as to why I'd better not ride an 8V. I just know I'm going to want the extra ponies that the 4VPC dishes up and reckon you'll face the same dilemma going from Beetle's locomotive back to your "gentle, little 1200"...

[pete roper]

The Cali 14 uses the same clutch. Only difference in the gearbox is the use of a face cam shock on the input shaft that was for some reason deleted on the 1200's 8V's but was present in the gearboxes of the 2VPC machines. Driveshaft and bevelbox are identical.

Pete

[John A]

!f I was to buy one of these "Specials" what would be a good doner bike? pure conjecture at this point but it seems I would enjoy one as my last bike!

[pete roper]

Any 1200-8V donk. Preferably a roller as any flattie would require rollerising.

[Huzo]

!f I was to buy one of these "Specials" what would be a good doner bike? pure conjecture at this point but it seems I would enjoy one as my last bike!

Would be good to hand a BMW it's own ass and not tell them a damn thing !
How about an '07, 8V, wire wheeled, Red 1400 Norge...
What do you reckon is the bottom line to do a known healthy Griso or Stelvio donk Pete, start to finish? We'll add the rollerising costs in later if necessary.
Labour and all, the whole shooting match given that everything goes as expected.
It'll be expensive I know, nothing will surprise me.
Do you have any litres/100k figures back yet ?

[Huzo]

Any 1200-8V donk. Preferably a roller as any flattie would require rollerising.

Jeez I would have been in my ute in 5 minutes to get that crashed Stelvio if I'd lived in the States.
All the buggerising around and humming and harring that went on 'cos it was "too far away"...
Bloody hell !

[lucian]

Would be good to hand a BMW it's own ass and not tell them a damn thing !
How about an '07, 8V, wire wheeled, Red 1400 Norge...
What do you reckon is the bottom line to do a known healthy Griso or Stelvio donk Pete, start to finish.
Labour and all, the whole shooting match given that everything goes as expected.
It'll be expensive I know, nothing will surprise me.

Come on Huzo, that's like asking a woman her age. Just get you in trouble.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Jeez I would have been in my ute in 5 minutes to get that crashed Stelvio if I'd lived in the States.
All the buggerising around and humming and harring that went on 'cos it was "too far away"...
Bloody hell !

Agreed. When Ifound out about the aero engine, it didn't take long to think "road trip."  Anything worth having is worth a road trip..

[beetle]

Do you have any litres/100k figures back yet ?

Stay tuned. At the moment, it's a bit silly, because the throttle spends a lot of time wide open. Once I've done mapping it, I'll take it for a cruise to determine fuel economy.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Come on Huzo, that's like asking a woman her age. Just get you in trouble.

Not to mention the price..

[pete roper]

Also remember that the 8V is a thirsty beast, especially over 5.5K, it's simply a characteristic of the design and there is little you can do about it. Enbiggening it won't make it any more economical!

Pete

[LowRyter]

Well don't run it with a 9,000 redline! The pistons are 37 grammes heavier than the 1200. You do the bloody math! 

Pete

37 gr =  1.3 oz

sorry, that's the math, I am not qualified to put it in perspective.  I am also not a cam grinder or an ECU mapper.   

But after reading this it pissses me off that there's no 1400 LeMans....

 

[beetle]

Why are you sorry about doing the math? Mathematics never lies. Never be sorry about doing the math.

[pete roper]

Would be good to hand a BMW it's own ass and not tell them a damn thing !
How about an '07, 8V, wire wheeled, Red 1400 Norge...
What do you reckon is the bottom line to do a known healthy Griso or Stelvio donk Pete, start to finish? We'll add the rollerising costs in later if necessary.
Labour and all, the whole shooting match given that everything goes as expected.
It'll be expensive I know, nothing will surprise me.
Do you have any litres/100k figures back yet ?

Peter, call me, I think there might be issues with that idea.

[Huzo]

Agreed. When Ifound out about the aero engine, it didn't take long to think "road trip."  Anything worth having is worth a road trip..

Damn right Chuck.
Some blokes need to get a sense of adventure up them !

[Huzo]

Stay tuned. At the moment, it's a bit silly, because the throttle spends a lot of time wide open. Once I've done mapping it, I'll take it for a cruise to determine fuel economy.

Exciting stuff you blokes..

[Huzo]

Not to mention the price..

Don't care about that.
If the thought of a Roper built special doesn't give you a chubby, you're legally dead .

[Huzo]

37 gr =  1.3 oz

sorry, that's the math, I am not qualified to put it in perspective.  I am also not a cam grinder or an ECU mapper.   

But after reading this it pissses me off that there's no 1400 LeMans....

 

Calculating the g load on the piston is not hard given you know the piston speed mid stroke and the distance it has to come to a stop.
I don't want another dose off Beetle, but you could easily work out the forces given that the mass is known.
Or you could just keep the revs under control an surf the Hawaiian size torque wave and laugh your guts out...

[Huzo]

Peter, call me, I think there might be issues with that idea.

Ok mate.
I'm half way through doing the same thing that you did when I went for my first evaluation ride after Beetleising the Norge.
Will call you when done !!!

[Huzo]

Why are you sorry about doing the math? Mathematics never lies. Never be sorry about doing the math.

Um careful mate..
I was once labeled a pedant for doing exactly that on this forum..

[oldbike54]

Um careful mate..
I was once labeled a pedant for doing exactly that on this forum..

 Yeah , but we tend to overlook what you Ozzies call each other 

 Dusty

[pete roper]

Would be good to hand a BMW it's own ass and not tell them a damn thing !
How about an '07, 8V, wire wheeled, Red 1400 Norge...
What do you reckon is the bottom line to do a known healthy Griso or Stelvio donk Pete, start to finish? We'll add the rollerising costs in later if necessary.
Labour and all, the whole shooting match given that everything goes as expected.
It'll be expensive I know, nothing will surprise me.
Do you have any litres/100k figures back yet ?

The cost question is difficult. If we are talking about someone rolling their 1200-8V CARC bike into Motomoda's workshop and saying "Abracadabra! Turn this into a 1400 ready to go." my estimate, and I will reiterate that, ESTIMATE, would be somewhere between 8.5 and 10K in Aussie $$$. That would be for the motor and a known or simple adaptation of the G8-1200-Mistral Hi-Pipe+dBk map.

If you want the steering head bearings, shock linkage and swingarm bearings sorted/replaced? Extra. If you want a custom built map? Extra. If you want your suspension sorted or replaced with higher spec componentry? Extra.

Let the moaning commence as people claim 'Their Mate' can build one out of old coke cans and string for a couple of hundred bucks.

[Huzo]

Yeah , but we tend to overlook what you Ozzies call each other 

 Dusty

Actually the criticism was apt, but I choose not to burst into tears over it.

[twowings]

I set the rev limit to 8250, so I could log data at 8000. It's gets to 8250 very quickly.

Iteration 4 map. Bugger me lonesome, it's smooth. It's like a 1-speed auto. It pulls like a big...pulling thing. There's no need to change gears once you're in 6th. Crack the throttle open from 2000 and it goes like a dog shot up the arse.


 

I just got goose bumps and hair standing up on the back of my neck reading this...

[beetle]

Calculating the g load on the piston is not hard given you know the piston speed mid stroke and the distance it has to come to a stop.
I don't want another dose off Beetle, but you could easily work out the forces given that the mass is known.

I did. The inertia of the 1400 piston isn't that much more than the 1200 at 8000 RPM (~7%). At 9000 it's 10%. What is unknown is the load limit on the gudgeon pin. The rev limit on the Cali is 7500. It makes peak power at 6500. Peak torque at 2750. Of course it's mapped differently. Before you ask, cams are the same. 1200 factory rev limit is 8000. Peak power is 7500. I set the limit at 8500 for 8V maps, because that's the limit of the map table. On request I'll set it 8750, owner accepts all risk.

Now, I don't know where peak power will be on this engine. There's no need to set the limit at 9000. I only did that to the 1200 so I could do 200 in 4th gear. Given the cam profile, it's expected the peak power will be at closer to 7500. So, rev limit will stay at 8250. Besides, I'm really only interested in the torque curve.

[Huzo]

I did. The inertia of the 1400 piston isn't that much more than the 1200 at 8000 RPM (~7%). At 9000 it's 10%. What is unknown is the load limit on the gudgeon pin. The rev limit on the Cali is 7500. It makes peak power at 6500. Peak torque at 2750. Of course it's mapped differently. Before you ask, cams are the same. 1200 factory rev limit is 8000. Peak power is 7500. I set the limit at 8500 for 8V maps, because that's the limit of the map table. On request I'll set it 8750, owner accepts all risk.

Now, I don't know where peak power will be on this engine. There's no need to set the limit at 9000. I only did that to the 1200 so I could do 200 in 4th gear. Given the cam profile, it's expected the peak power will be at closer to 7500. So, rev limit will stay at 8250. Besides, I'm really only interested in the torque curve.

Just bloody fantastic you two/three ??
Must be great thing from the command seat, you deserve to succeed and have an absolute blast..

[pete roper]

My biggest concern was the cooling system. It's summer here now and where Mark lives it gets as hot as hades in summer, weeks on end of 40*C are not unknown. If it's going to pop it's clogs due to cooling problems we'll know soon enough.

Michael put a lot of thought into addressing the cooling issues. As I said before, this project is mostly his and Mark's. I can take little credit.

Pete