LeMans Starting In Gear

[Stephen Hill]

My 1976 LeMans will try to start if the bike is not in neutral.
The previous owner told me that when the original starter was replaced, it lost a safety feature that didn't allow starting in gear. 
Page 141 of Haynes manual refers to a starter isolator switch in the clutch cable, but says this was not available on the LeMans.
The LeMans circuit diagram in the Haynes manual (page 150), item 31 refers to a "neutral position cutout".
Can someone please tell me where the neutral position cutout is located, and how it works?
Is it possible that installing a different starter would mean the neutral position cutout doesn't work?

Stephen Hill

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

My 1976 LeMans will try to start if the bike is not in neutral.
The previous owner told me that when the original starter was replaced, it lost a safety feature that didn't allow starting in gear. 
Page 141 of Haynes manual refers to a starter isolator switch in the clutch cable, but says this was not available on the LeMans.
The LeMans circuit diagram in the Haynes manual (page 150), item 31 refers to a "neutral position cutout".
Can someone please tell me where the neutral position cutout is located, and how it works?
Is it possible that installing a different starter would mean the neutral position cutout doesn't work?

Stephen Hill

You can wire the ground for the starter relay to the neutral switch, that way it'll only start in neutral.

Personally, I do away with all of the "safety" switches and just remember to pull in the clutch before I press the starter button. Stalling it at a light and then sitting there trying to find neutral is a recipe for getting rear-ended. 

[Triple Jim]

Personally, I do away with all of the "safety" switches and just remember to pull in the clutch before I press the starter button. Stalling it at a light and then sitting there trying to find neutral is a recipe for getting rear-ended.

Boy, you're right about that.  Newer bikes allow starting in gear if the clutch lever is pulled.  That's kind of a nice way to allow quick starts in gear safely.  You can get clutch levers with integral switches cheaply these days.

[pete mcgee]

My 84 mk3 will start in gear, afaik there is no lockouts to prevent it.
As its the most modern bike I own, its rarely an issue, you either make sure its in neutral or pull the clutch in.

[Stephen Hill]

Part of the problem is the nutty side stand on the early LeMans.  By the time I have pushed the side stand out and got it locked in place, sometimes I have bumped the shift lever.  Then when I get on the bike and go to start it, it could be in gear.
I guess starting the bike with the clutch pulled in is the best policy.
I agree that adding a lockout just introduces more complexity.
However, I am curious how the original neutral position cutout worked.

Stephen Hill

[guzzisteve]

I always start a Guzzi w/clutch pulled in, even if it's in neutral, motor just spins over faster.
Especially if it's cold temps.
The Brown's sidestand mod or SP3 stand works great.

[Idontwantapickle]

However, I am curious how the original neutral position cutout worked.

Stephen Hill

It's quite simple. The coil of the starter relay is grounded through the neutral switch. When you push the button to start it the power goes to the starter relay. If the transmission is in neutral then the circuit is completed to ground and the starter solenoid engages the starter motor and Bob's your Uncle.
On most Guzzis with this feature the wiring is simply the ground from the starter relay is attached to the neutral switch post on the transmission.
Hunter

[voncrump]

I always start a Guzzi w/clutch pulled in, even if it's in neutral, motor just spins over faster.
Especially if it's cold temps.

I agree with this. The drive in neutral through a 5 speed box with 140 oil in it is almost enough to move the bike. Try pushing the bike forwards after you have just started the motor from cold. It will be very easy to push forwards and hard to shift backwards.
With the lemans I wonder if it has neutral light or has somebody not had room to fit the wire to the switch after they fitted an aftermarket starter. The starters can foul the top of the neutral switch thread.
Cheers, voncrump

[Stephen Hill]

The bike still has a neutral light.  Sounds like it shouldn't be that hard to wire to the starter relay.  However, the previous owner said when the starter was replaced, the bike lost the function that meant it would only start when in neutral.  I wonder if the new starter had an integrated starter relay.  Wouldn't this make it difficult to use the neutral switch as a lockout?

Stephen Hill

[Kiwi_Roy]

I don't see any such interlock in Carl's schematic
Trace the purple wire from the light (5) switch (31), nothing else attached.

BTW the light (5) should have a red wire from the oil pressure light (4)

http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/1976_LeMans_I.gif
click on the image to zoom in

The schematic shows an unusual feature the Brake Light (38), I assume it goes on when the reservoir is low

[Rick4003]

The starters can foul the top of the neutral switch thread.
Cheers, voncrump

I had this problem when I fitted my new Valeo starter on my T5, the neutral switch was installed with normal hex head bolts but the starter solenoid would still touch it. Had to modify the switch a bit to accept countersunk screws instead. But there is no wiring to stop the bike from starting in gear.

I always start bikes with the clutch pulled as I like to park in gear so it can't roll away on the sitestand.

-Ulrik

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

[Chuck in Indiana]

The schematic shows an unusual feature the Brake Light (38), I assume it goes on when the reservoir is low

The light is in the panel of several of the bikes I've had of this era, but never a switch to activate it. 

[guzzisteve]

My 86 Cali2 has the switch & float cap on the rear master w/wiring to it and it works. My 84 LM3 has the light on the dash & wiring but no switch in cap. I bought the bikes new. I have seen most like the LM.

[Guzzistajohn]

I wouldn’t change a thing. Knock it off that shitty side stand a time or two, you learn to park in neutral or throw a leg over 1st <shrug>

[normzone]

I had this problem when I fitted my new Valeo starter on my T5, the neutral switch was installed with normal hex head bolts but the starter solenoid would still touch it. Had to modify the switch a bit to accept countersunk screws instead. But there is no wiring to stop the bike from starting in gear.

I always start bikes with the clutch pulled as I like to park in gear so it can't roll away on the sitestand. -Ulrik

The guy I bought my Bassa from said his policy was if he parked it in gear he turned the kill switch off so you had a reminder - I've adopted that policy.

Also what [Guzzistajohn] says about throwing a leg over.

[pete mcgee]

I wouldn�t change a thing. Knock it off that shitty side stand a time or two, you learn to park in neutral or throw a leg over 1st <shrug>

Not quite correct, after it launched itself at the ground for the third time, I built a better side stand.