(NGC - firearms related) What modern production methods can produce.

[Gliderjohn]

The first pictured rifle is a customized 1885 Winchester High Wall in .219 Donald/Wasp with an Unertl 8X scope. Don't know what it cost in it's day (40s-50s) but the best I can determine the rifle and scope combination would bring around $2,500 currently. The other picture is a modern Savage 110 in .243 with the Accu-Trigger. What amazes me is that the Savage with scope combo cost about $400. Both will shoot five shot 3/4 inch groups at 100 yds. We have come a long way baby!






GliderJohn

[tris]

I know diddily squat about guns but it does make an interesting point

How do you get a figure of $2,100 (difference in value between the 2) when based on its function/capability they are equally good at what they are designed to do - ie shoot stuff

How do you define the value/worth of age?

Tris

PS
To my eyes the Winchester is a stylish bit of gear

[Chuck in Indiana]

^^^ the same way a modern Japanese 600 will run rings around a Vincent. <shrug> Which would you rather have? What's the availability? There's the price difference.

[Sheepdog]

Sub-MOA is some good shooting with any rifle. A friend just recently picked up a Savage in .223. He�ll be happy to hear your accuracy report...

[Gliderjohn]

From Tris:

I know diddily squat about guns but it does make an interesting point

How do you get a figure of $2,100 (difference in value between the 2) when based on its function/capability they are equally good at what they are designed to do - ie shoot stuff

How do you define the value/worth of age?

Tris

PS
To my eyes the Winchester is a stylish bit of gear

As Chuck referred to, the classic styling and the workmanship of the winchester. The action is literally as smooth as hot butter but tight. Double set triggers are a joy. It is cool to still use something that was designed in 1885 and the last one produced was in 1920. There traditional competitive shooting sports and that is the group that would pay this kind of money.
The scope is desirable due to being an externally adjustable scope which is much more durable. Plus Unertl scopes were the "BMW" of their day.
The Savage is just a fine tool. Nothing much pretty about it but is well designed and much more practical for everyday use.
GliderJohn

[jcctx]

Aside from the "safety" trigger the Savage action was designed 70+ years back!!!

[Chuck in Indiana]

Aside from the "safety" trigger the Savage action was designed 70+ years back!!!

About all you need to know about mechanical stuff had been discovered before the turn of the 20th century.  Here'l my ancient (naturally) copy of "Machinery's handbook."
The first edition was 1914..
Want to find out how to manufacture that Savage action? Machining feeds and speeds? Steels? Heat treating? Making springs? You name it.. it's there.
2017-11-08_12-50-01 by Charles Stottlemyer, on Flickr
I've been working on the V11 Sport pawl spring problem (Guzzi content) and brought out the "bible."

[Orange Guzzi]

About all you need to know about mechanical stuff had been discovered before the turn of the 20th century.  Here'l my ancient (naturally) copy of "Machinery's handbook."
The first edition was 1914..
Want to find out how to manufacture that Savage action? Machining feeds and speeds? Steels? Heat treating? Making springs? You name it.. it's there.
2017-11-08_12-50-01 by Charles Stottlemyer, on Flickr
I've been working on the V11 Sport pawl spring problem (Guzzi content) and brought out the "bible."

Every one should have this book in their bug out bag.  I keep mine close at hand.  Had a class in trade school specifically covering this book. 

[ridingron]

Machinery's  Handbook is/was the bible of tool and die shops. I ask the guys that were about to retire if they wanted to sell theirs. Very few did. The Gerstner tool box (wooden) was the Cadillac of tool boxes. They had a center drawer made just to fit the "bible".


http://gerstnerusa.com/2007-2nd

[Chuck in Indiana]

Machinery's  Handbook is/was the bible of tool and die shops. I ask the guys that were about to retire if they wanted to sell theirs. Very few did. The Gerstner tool box (wooden) was the Cadillac of tool boxes. They had a center drawer made just to fit the "bible".


http://gerstnerusa.com/2007-2nd

Yep, I have two Gerstners. One complete with bible. 

[Orange Guzzi]

Machinery's  Handbook is/was the bible of tool and die shops. I ask the guys that were about to retire if they wanted to sell theirs. Very few did. The Gerstner tool box (wooden) was the Cadillac of tool boxes. They had a center drawer made just to fit the "bible".


http://gerstnerusa.com/2007-2nd

And Kennedy had the drawer also.  Still have my dads Kennedy.

[normzone]

Mine is at work, I can't remember which edition I have - I want to say 23rd, but I could be wrong - it's been too long since I had to argue over splitting hairs with somebody who thought they knew what they were talking about.

In the eighties, you needed that book to pass certification as a mechanical inspector. God, the threads and gears I have seen .... EDIT: Unlike [Chuck in Indiana], of course, who has both made AND seen them ....

[EldoMike]

The first pictured rifle is a customized 1885 Winchester High Wall in .219 Donald/Wasp with an Unertl 8X scope. Don't know what it cost in it's day (40s-50s) but the best I can determine the rifle and scope combination would bring around $2,500 currently. The other picture is a modern Savage 110 in .243 with the Accu-Trigger. What amazes me is that the Savage with scope combo cost about $400. Both will shoot five shot 3/4 inch groups at 100 yds. We have come a long way baby!






GliderJohn

When I use to hunt many years ago, my weapon of choice was a Remington bolt action .243....if you could see it you could kill it.

[tris]

I've had cause over the past couple of months to return to an old role of mine, finding and approving manufacturing machine shops for us to use, and the technology jump over the past 5 years or so since I last did it is remarkable

Our contractor can now blue light scan an object and produce a CAD model. We pass the model to the machine shop and Bobs your Uncle out comes a finished part

The days of forgings and castings and the like (especially for low volume stuff) to a great extent is gone. We just stick a chunk of bar in a machine and chommer the part out of the solid

And that is all before we start to think about 3D printing of parts.

I never thought there would be printed turbine blades https://www.theengineer.co.uk/siemens-successfully-tests-3d-printed-gas-turbine-blades/

So the ability to produce high quality low volume components is very much easier than when I started work in the 80s and this technology transfers across to weapons like the Savage I guess

Tris

[Huzo]

The first pictured rifle is a customized 1885 Winchester High Wall in .219 Donald/Wasp with an Unertl 8X scope. Don't know what it cost in it's day (40s-50s) but the best I can determine the rifle and scope combination would bring around $2,500 currently. The other picture is a modern Savage 110 in .243 with the Accu-Trigger. What amazes me is that the Savage with scope combo cost about $400. Both will shoot five shot 3/4 inch groups at 100 yds. We have come a long way baby!






GliderJohn

Yeah.
Really makes you wonder where the good old US of A would be without guns....
Certainly not in the news as much.

[Aaron D.]

Probably talk funny too.

[Hymes Inc.]

About all you need to know about mechanical stuff had been discovered before the turn of the 20th century.  Here'l my ancient (naturally) copy of "Machinery's handbook."
The first edition was 1914..
Want to find out how to manufacture that Savage action? Machining feeds and speeds? Steels? Heat treating? Making springs? You name it.. it's there.
2017-11-08_12-50-01 by Charles Stottlemyer, on Flickr
I've been working on the V11 Sport pawl spring problem (Guzzi content) and brought out the "bible."

Are those Cat30 tool holders? What machine do you have? Sorry to go off topic.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Are those Cat30 tool holders? What machine do you have? Sorry to go off topic.

Yeah, 30s. It's an antique (naturally)  Supermax knee mill that I bought new in 85. I was the only guy around with a cnc at that time.
A couple of weeks ago, I saw some absolutely lovely 3D printed parts. 3D printing is at about the same level of tech that cnc milling was in 85, but you have to spend the big bucks (around 400K) to buy in.

[Gliderjohn]

From jcctx:

Aside from the "safety" trigger the Savage action was designed 70+ years back!!!

It is more than a "safety" trigger. It is a big improvement as it is crisp and adjustable down to about 2 lbs. Now the "set" trigger when set is about 2oz.
GliderJohn

[MotoG5]

The old guns like the Winchesters and such have always had a huge collector interest thus the high prices. I have been into black powder era large caliber rifles for many years but in no way could afford to own and shoot original Sharps or Remington examples. However modern manufacturing as you have noted can reproduce at an affordable cost guns that allow a guy like me to do just that. The rolling block below is all newer manufactured including the period correct scope and mounts. It will hold 2 MOA all the way out to 1k yards for shooting in black powder cartridge rifle silhouette and long range buffalo gong style match shooting. I have other reproduction Sharps rifles that will do the same thing. With out modern manufacturing this type of hobby would not be affordable for the average person.
 

[Lannis]

That must be one mean, dangerous garden gnome there .... !

[MotoG5]

That must be one mean, dangerous garden gnome there .... !

Yep, and one wrong move and the little bugger will catch a 45 caliber 540 grain lead slug!

[Gliderjohn]

One time at a range I was able to fire a Sharps replica with (50-90) with both smokeless and black powder loads. Both using a 500 grain bullet. Not a problem seeing where your bullets hit! Could sure feel a difference in recoil pulse. Fun!
GliderJohn