77 Vert vs 17 Bobber

[rodekyll]

Don't think of the Convert as an automatic, since it does nothing automatically.  Think of it as a fluid drive with a selectable performance band.  You get to choose between "kinda sporty" and "definitely not sporty but my battery doesn't charge either."  I think that's how it's phrased in the rule book.

I definitely agree that if the Mighty 'Vert needs explanation, it's not going to be understood.  I've been trying to bikesplain it for decades, and you either see the light bulb go on or you don't.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

And that's okay, more of them and at bargain prices for us "enlightened" folks. 
 

[kirby1923]

Don't think of the Convert as an automatic, since it does nothing automatically.  Think of it as a fluid drive with a selectable performance band.  You get to choose between "kinda sporty" and "definitely not sporty but my battery doesn't charge either."  I think that's how it's phrased in the rule book.

I definitely agree that if the Mighty 'Vert needs explanation, it's not going to be understood.  I've been trying to bikesplain it for decades, and you either see the light bulb go on or you don't.

Your right RK the fluid drive doesn't constitute and auto gear change but an automatic transmission of power without gears to shift.

These types of power transmission systems are rare in the motorcycle industry I think because there doesn't seem to be a demand for them except for scooters. There have been few.

Ya got to admit its the red haired stepchild to the majority of the market and I think Guzzi has proven that.
There seems to be a passionate group of folks that take offence at anybody that thinks its rube goldbergish and it sure hasn't help Guzzi as they don't produce them, sort of like their strange(to me) linked brake system..they don't do that anymore either..

To those that took offence at my comment..well it wasn't mean that way..and yeah I don't understand nor need to.

Unenlightened I remain....

:-)

[rodekyll]

You gotta have a sense of humor to ride a convert.

[oldbike54]

Yeah that reminds me of FUBAR, now there is a sense of humor!!!

:-)

 No truer statement ever .

 Dusty

[Aaron D.]

It's about the same thing as the "torque crunch" in the first Chaparrals

[oldbike54]

It's about the same thing as the "torque crunch" in the first Chaparrals

 Except that sorta powerglide actually shifted .

 Dusty

[Aaron D.]

I know the later ones did, but I think the first one had only one ratio-they tried it when they realized they could light up the tires in every gear.

But I'm going by memory.

[gearman]

Yes . but the converter gives torque multiplication which helps.Of course it slips 6percent.

[ohiorider]

(Convert tranny) sounds as primitive as the family car we had from 1948 to 1952 ...... a Chrysler Windsor with an in-line 6 and Fluid Drive.  Kind of automatic, and I think it could start off in any gear (1-2-3.) As I recall, it retained a clutch pedal, and if it was started off in a lower gear, it could shift up a gear if the driver momentarily let off the gas.

I'll always remember my older brother's disappointment when he came home from school and saw the pea soup green Windsor parked in front of the house.  His dreams of an Oldsmobile Rocket 88 with V8 and Hydromatic were totally shattered.

Bob

EDIT:  Kirb, I didn't read your post before posting.  Think you're correct .... it had a two speed gearbox + torque converter.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

The Convert transmission has three sections, front to rear: the torque converter (made by Sachs), a multi-plate dry clutch and a two-speed gearbox.

The clutch is only used when starting as a "neutral" and for shifting between ranges.

It is recommended that you not shift between high and low while moving. The gearbox does not shift on it's own (or shouldn't anyway), the rider chooses high or low range and then shifts it manually if desired.

In normal use, the rider pulls in the clutch, starts the engine, lets out on the clutch, gives it some throttle and away we go. At a stop, all the rider does is brake to a stop and twist the throttle to go again. No clutching, no shifting. 

Related reading: http://thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_tonti_i-convert_transmission__how_it_works.html
It's the most complicated simple transmission transmission Guzzi ever built. 
http://thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_tonti_i-convert_transmission_repair.html

[Tom]

 :1:  What he says.   

[rodekyll]

One more thing about the fluid drive system on the convert.

I began to remember a family car we had when I was a kid and there are some similarities to the Guzzi. I wonder if the Guzzi engineers got some inspiration form this auto?

It was a '49 De Soto sedan which had what they called a fluid drive transmission.
It had a column shift with 3 positions. Low gear, high gear, and reverse, w/ a clutch petal as well,and that was needed to shift to any of the gears.

Normal operation was to just leave the transmission in high gear and press the gas petal, (clutch was not needed after that). The car would accelerate in low gear and when you reached the shift speed for high gear you just let up on the petal and it would shift to high automatically as long as the column shifter was in the high position.
Its is a similar system to the convert(?) as it has a conventional clutch as well as a fluid torque converter.

 :Beating_A_Dead_Hors e_by_liviu

No.  The Convert does not shift.  You select low range (city) or high range (city + everything else) before starting to roll.  From then on it's always in "go" and uses the torque converter's slip to effect gear reduction and allow the bike to be stopped in gear (remember -- only one false neutral on these, and you're not supposed to find it).  So in low range you get ~+500 rpm at a given speed compared to high range.  That's good for 0-85 (approx.), but is generally used in stop-and-go traffic and severe twisties.  In high range you get 0-??? where ??? is some unknown-to-me figure north of the ton.  Because high range runs the engine ~500rpm slower than low, it can be a problem in extended low-speed and stop-and-go situations. 

So some folks shift into low in town to keep the battery charging.  Along the hilly west coast, a Convert in low range will walk up San Francisco's, Portland's, and Seattle's traffic light-gridded hills effortlessly, without any fussing with the clutch or fumbling for the right gear -- a Convert is always in the proper gear.  You can duck walk it, parade ride it, and do all the low-and-slow maneuvers without getting your clutch hand tired or overheat the bike. 

Some folks keep it in high gear all the time.  It still does all of the above.  Some of those have variously eliminated the shifter, clutch, and/or locked the range selector into high.  I did all of the above and rode my Mighty 'Vert the length of the Alcan like that.  Then I went a step farther and threw away the gearbox altogether -- connected the torque converter directly to the rear drive with a double-CV-jointed drive shaft.  The rig weighs 1120# and has no gears to shift.  I've got over 10k on that experiment now, and still rolling.

And that's how (and why) a Convert rider changes gears -- or not.

   (waiting for the light bulb . .  )

[Tom]

Thanks Dave.  Never thought about pitching the gearbox and clutch assembly.   

[rodekyll]

That's the theory behind the trike, Tom.  I had the clutch shaft from a Convert welded to a shaft coupler and coupled it to a transfer case.  The transfer case has no forward gear reduction.  It simply changes from forward to reverse.  I welded a VW type I CV joint hub to another shaft coupler and coupled it to the output side of the transfer case.  A modified VW axle shaft takes it to the differential.  No clutch and no gearbox.  Works good.  Requires shutting the engine off to change direction.

[Arizona Wayne]

Then I must be the only guy who shifts his Convert. up/down as needed with no issues with the tranny/clutch, crossing from norCal to Louisiana 2 up & loaded pulling a tent trailer.    Also did the same with a sidecar on the same '80 Convert. in mountaines norCal. 

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Then I must be the only guy who shifts his Convert. up/down as needed with no issues with the tranny/clutch, crossing from norCal to Louisiana 2 up & loaded pulling a tent trailer.    Also did the same with a sidecar on the same '80 Convert. in mountaines norCal. 

[PeteS]

Thanks Dave.  Never thought about pitching the gearbox and clutch assembly.   

Take a close look at the handlebars on Mike T's 2nd generation Sport vert. above.  (White tank) Both sides.

Pete

[Arizona Wayne]

Not by design just different I guess since everyone else here says I'm crazy for doing it.   I do it with no regrets.  Have any of you who have done it regretted it or do you just assume it's a no no just because someone told you so?

[Tom]

I like touching the plate after the waitress says it's hot.   

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Not by design just different I guess since everyone else here says I'm crazy for doing it.   I do it with no regrets.  Have any of you who have done it regretted it or do you just assume it's a no no just because someone told you so?

When you open up a Convert transmission and all of the "dogs" are rounded off, you know what someone has been doing. I have three apart that have pretty serious damage due to shifting on the fly...

[Arizona Wayne]

When you open up a Convert transmission and all of the "dogs" are rounded off, you know what someone has been doing. I have three apart that have pretty serious damage due to shifting on the fly...

I knew a fellow Guzzisti whose Convert. didn't even have a clutch lever on it who claimed it didn't need it.  I knew what he was doing to his dogs.