A Millennial’s Perspective

[canuck750]

I would recommend the trades over a profession to any young person. One of my sons is finishing his 4th year electrical apprentice, average journeyman electrician wage here is $37.00 / hr, Older son has 6 years post secondary and a design degree and makes $30.00 / hr.

Trades are very much in demand in my area as many of the skilled tradesmen and women are approaching retirement. Average journeyman wage for a welder, plumber, refrigeration mechanic, instrumentation tech, heavy duty mechanic and electrician is $37 ~ $40 / hr. A registered nurse averages $43/hr.

The potential to earn a lot more is there for a profession but the cost of education, completion for jobs, risk of being a self practitioner etc. is a real consideration and for many the path to a profession does not make financial sense. A skilled tradesman can become a successful entrepreneur and earn far more than your average professional.

I have to agree that buying a big fancy new truck is one heck of a lousy business decision.

[Darren Williams]

"I have to agree that buying a big fancy new truck is one heck of a lousy business decision."

Honestly I think we all know the big fancy truck isn't a business decision, but a personal one that uses the business to help offset the costs.  Just like our motorcycles are not the most economical means of transportation. It's a passion thing.

[DavidR8]

"I have to agree that buying a big fancy new truck is one heck of a lousy business decision."

Honestly I think we all know the big fancy truck isn't a business decision, but a personal one that uses the business to help offset the costs.  Just like our motorcycles are not the most economical means of transportation. It's a passion thing.

There may have been other extenuating factors which played a part in the decision to buy the truck.
Maybe he needs to tow some huge trailer or something not related to his work.
Not arguing for or against the use of retirement funds for present day purchases.


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[Lannis]

  Do you really think raiding your 401K to buy a new truck is good business practice? Why a 41K dually pick up instead of a used van ? I was in the trades all my life and a contractor, I have heard all the stories and seen the results...I'm not saying the man isn't motivated and sincere, I just see the potential for disaster....

I raided my 6-year-old IRA in 1989 (when I was 35) to get the money for the land that the house that Fay and I built and are living in today.   We were able to pay for the materials as we went along (it took 5 years) and we supplied the labor.   House was long since paid off.

The guys wife has an older Camry - the truck is sometimes his work truck and sometimes the family car.   That's about all I know about it.

I still had 28 years to build my IRA back up to where it was (and where I retired) - he's probably got 32.   I don't predict disaster, he's a smart guy.   

Neither of us will be around to know, I suspect ... 

Lannis

[Lannis]

A brand new Ram Big Horn 4dr Mega Cab 4WD SB (5.7L 8cyl 6A) lists at $62K. Even if it isn't 4WD the price couldn't be down to $41 unless he purchased this as a used vehicle.  And I agree, starting off on his own he should have purchased a used van and added a trailer if he needed to haul more inventory to a site. Cashing in his 401K at the age of 33 for such a purchase is not such a wise move IMO.

He just now bought it used.   He HAD an old Dakota with a trailer and the repairs and lack of capacity were making him miss commitments.

I have the advantage of talking to him in my kitchen for almost an hour, so I have a little more info than I have time to type in here .... He's doing like I did, and like I hope my sons will continue to do ...

Lannis

[blackcat]

He just now bought it used.   He HAD an old Dakota with a trailer and the repairs and lack of capacity were making him miss commitments.


Lannis

OK, if he bought used and he was losing money by the lack of reliable transportation then I understand the risk. And he is young. 

[Lannis]

OK, if he bought used and he was losing money by the lack of reliable transportation then I understand the risk. And he is young.

Well, I've been thinking "Why did raiding my IRA 29 years ago work out for me?"

It was a subjective thing, and it meant that I could go forward without any debt (or minimal debt, which was paid off early).   Since I knew that I would not retire if I still had debt, and since I knew that the interest rates on debt would almost ALWAYS be higher than the return on my savings ... I did it for peace of mind.

I haven't gone back and calculated what would have happened if I had left the IRA alone, carried the debt, and paid that as I went.   I would have paid more money out over that time 1989 - 2017, BUT I might have had more money in savings in 2015, and it might have been more than I paid out servicing debt.

I just know that I had 27 years of Peace of Mind knowing that I could jump either way MUCH more easily during hard times in an emergency with no debt than I could have with a bigger IRA ...

Maybe not for everyone, worked for us.  Betcha it's gonna work for the young guy with the truck!

Lannis

[Rough Edge racing]

 I'm not against taking money out of a retirement fund to start a business....I was just wondering out loud why he needs a $40000 truck to install appliances..I'm a minimalist ,less baggage is better...
 

[Lannis]

I'm not against taking money out of a retirement fund to start a business....I was just wondering out loud why he needs a $40000 truck to install appliances..I'm a minimalist ,less baggage is better...

I don't know, to be honest.

Maybe it helps that he can write off the capital and operating expense for the truck (or mileage) off on his taxes.

Maybe he's doing a bit of combining business with pleasure - like me when I commuted to work on a motorcycle.   It cost more (considering tires, wear and tear, etc) to ride the bike as part of my work rather than going with the absolute cheapest option, which would have been to spend an hour and a half in a used Honda Civic every day instead of on a bike.   Maybe it's sort of like that, but likes a big truck instead of a bike.

At any rate, he's a Millennial who ISN'T worrying about whether wages and prices are in the same relationship as when the old graybeard he's installing a dishwasher for was working.   He ISN'T sitting around moaning that he has $100K in college debt and he can't seem to find a job.    He ISN'T  all woe is me about his employer isn't treating him right and the CEO makes 100 times what he does.

He's a millennial who's out there finding opportunities, taking risks, getting his hands dirty, making some good decisions (and maybe some marginal ones), working hard, and making it happen for himself and his family.

I still say there's hope yet!

Lannis

[canuck750]

What Millennial's (and sadly many other folks these days) seem to forget is that the $40K spent on a new truck is after tax dollars, the gross up for pre-tax dollars means that most people are spending at least 1.3 X the retail cost, or $52K for the truck. The vehicle will depreciate a minimum of 10% per year so in three years its worth at best $28K on an initial investment of real earned dollars of $52K. In three years the truck cost the owner $24K to own.

If the same purchaser bought a $20K truck with a gross up factor of 1.3 for a real dollar cost of $26K, depreciated for three years the loss is $6k, for a year three value of $14K, The three year cost to own the truck is $12K of earned dollars. Take the $12 saved and pay down a mortgage or invest in a mild risk fund averaging 7% growth and in the same three year period earn $2600 on the investment.

[Arizona Wayne]

In my opinion, the point is independence of body and soul...And based on what I have  seen in other similar situations.... But it's his life not mine...

 :1: Unless this fella has mental issues we don't know about.

[Lannis]

What Millennial's (and sadly many other folks these days) seem to forget is that the $40K spent on a new truck is after tax dollars, the gross up for pre-tax dollars means that most people are spending at least 1.3 X the retail cost, or $52K for the truck. The vehicle will depreciate a minimum of 10% per year so in three years its worth at best $28K on an initial investment of real earned dollars of $52K. In three years the truck cost the owner $24K to own.

If the same purchaser bought a $20K truck with a gross up factor of 1.3 for a real dollar cost of $26K, depreciated for three years the loss is $6k, for a year three value of $14K, The three year cost to own the truck is $12K of earned dollars. Take the $12 saved and pay down a mortgage or invest in a mild risk fund averaging 7% growth and in the same three year period earn $2600 on the investment.

What we forget is that some people are into trucks like we're into motorcycles.   They're not looking for the most penny-pinching financial deal, any more than we're looking for the cheapest way to own a motorcycle.   They want one they enjoy and does what they want.   Ask Rocker.

Anybody's $18,000 Cal 1400 or Triumph Trophy or BMW 1600GT is a mortally stupid financial decision that could be easily fixed by buying a $8,000 motorcycle instead .... !

Lannis

[canuck750]

Anybody's $18,000 Cal 1400 or Triumph Trophy or BMW 1600GT is a mortally stupid financial decision that could be easily fixed by buying a $8,000 motorcycle instead .... !

Lannis

Agreed, but when you are young and getting started, supporting kids and paying a mortgage, stupid decisions are very costly in the long run. If we can teach young people to forgo a $40K pick up truck for a couple years there is hope for his generation.

[Kev m]

I would recommend the trades over a profession to any young person


Trades are very much in demand in my area as many of the skilled tradesmen and women are approaching retirement. Average journeyman wage for a welder, plumber, refrigeration mechanic, instrumentation tech, heavy duty mechanic and electrician is $37 ~ $40 / hr. A registered nurse averages $43/hr.

The potential to earn a lot more is there for a profession but the cost of education, completion for jobs, risk of being a self practitioner etc. is a real consideration and for many the path to a profession does not make financial sense. A skilled tradesman can become a successful entrepreneur and earn far more than your average professional.

You make some some good points and I don't think it's black and white, but then again, if it's not black and white then your opening statement might require some softening of the absolutes.

For instance, that registered nurse comment. Are you suggesting nursing is a trade?

It's not in the US (anymore, if it ever was). The RN is no longer being hired or promoted, they are being required to complete their BSN if they don't already have it. And the BSN is largely considered the most difficult undergraduate degree. I would call that professional status without requiring an advanced degree.

And though the trades hourly figures you quote are good for sure. There are a number of professional degrees from medicine to law that can demand $100, $200, $300/hr.

There are professionals in sales, technology, and the financial segments I know who are earning like that.

Then again I know a real estate agent (bachelor's degree, real estate license, and decent entrepreneurship) who is earning like that too.

I will say happily the the school districts around here offer the option of VOTECH high schools which have academic tracts for things like HVAC, plumbing, electricians, automotive technician, childcare, food services industry, floral industry, etc. So it's not all being ignored.

But yes, I'd say it's not all black & white, and there are a fair amount of factors to consider when thinking about an educational and career path.

[Aaron D.]

The young fellers who have worked on our property all seem to be doing well, one bought an airplane (cash) last summer.

He sold the company to 2 of his employees, just starting out but with a big client list.

Hell, when I was 18 I spent every dollar I had and then some on my new Guzzi. Worked out fine.

I'd trade all the money I have with any penniless 20 year old if I could. The kids are all right.

[Bucky]

I have 2 millenial kids, 31(girl)and 33(boy). Grew up small town USA, live in St. Paul/Minneapolis.

Both are hard working, as their friends are, good jobs in both trades and professions.

One of my son's buddy's started a motorcycle cooperative.
Warehouse, with tools, a dozen+ bike lifts and rents space by the hour, week or monthly memberships. Smart kids, very polite and hard workers.

I gotta say though, the difference between their generation and mine (BabyBoomer) is they have a better balance between work and play.
I am retired, and my son asked me what I would do differently if I was starting over.
I would have worked less and played more.
They get it, they work to do the things they enjoy. More power to them IMHO.

[Darren Williams]

Agreed, but when you are young and getting started, supporting kids and paying a mortgage, stupid decisions are very costly in the long run. If we can teach young people to forgo a $40K pick up truck for a couple years there is hope for his generation.

And we also need to teach these youngster to stay away from expensive and dangerous motorcycles, so they can just go through their mundane vanilla existence and be exactly like everyone else in a perfect cookie cutter world. Or not.   

[canuck750]

For instance, that registered nurse comment. Are you suggesting nursing is a trade?

No negatives meant towards nursing, my wife has been a RN for almost 40 years and has earned a BSN and MSN, and ended her career teaching. I have a lot of respect for nurses and she would disagree with me on this, but Nurses are not seen as professional's as Lawyers, Doctors, Engineers etc, are, some of this due to historical male bias and that the they are typically not self employed running a consultancy or practice. and carrying the exposure to litigation. My wife is a council member of the College of Registered Nurses in the Province and has strong feelings that nurses should have the official professional designation.
 
I included nursing as an alternate to a typical degree program in general science, arts, etc, that do not offer graduates a sure path to employment. Most hospital staffing models are not based upon RN designation (requires a BSN now in the Province) and are staffing with LPN graduates and the odd RN. The LPN gets about 3/5 the wage of the RN for less than half the time spent in post secondary education.

My recommendation for trades over post secondary is for 'most' kids, the ones who do not have a 3.8 or better GPA and not likely to be accepted to Law, Medicine, Engineering etc.

[Sheepdog]

I think that there are always bad examples that folks tend to latch onto...the young people today are really not so different than they have ever been. Sure, there are lots of malingering young �uns out there, but there are lots of Boomers that are no different, their advanced age notwithstanding. I have two kids in their thirties that have thrived as adults. My daughter joined the Army as a journalist and did a whole bunch of combat video while in Iraq. Her work was so good, she was offered any assignment she wanted upon her return. She asked for and got a slot in flight school and finished as an honor graduate. She flew scouts (OH58Ds) for about ten years and now runs a Shadow platoon in the Oregon Nat�l Guard. The Army has paid for all of her education. My son got into sales and recently moved to New Orleans and scored a job with a high end audio outfit. Despite being their youngest sales rep, he led the store in sales for two years and was made manager last week. He has no student debt, either. Both of them have had their own health insurance since 2006.

Back in the sixties, all the older folks thought that America was doomed by all the hippies and liberal-thinking young people. In the twenties it was the Flappers and the people who listened to jazz. What is this tendency for us to judge our young people so harshly? Human nature, I guess...but enough good ones are out there that we will carry on just fine.

[Kev m]

No negatives meant towards nursing, my wife has been a RN for almost 40 years and has earned a BSN and MSN, and ended her career teaching. I have a lot of respect for nurses and she would disagree with me on this, but Nurses are not seen as professional's as Lawyers, Doctors, Engineers etc, are, some of this due to historical male bias and that the they are typically not self employed running a consultancy or practice. and carrying the exposure to litigation. My wife is a council member of the College of Registered Nurses in the Province and has strong feelings that nurses should have the official professional designation.
 
I included nursing as an alternate to a typical degree program in general science, arts, etc, that do not offer graduates a sure path to employment. Most hospital staffing models are not based upon RN designation (requires a BSN now in the Province) and are staffing with LPN graduates and the odd RN. The LPN gets about 3/5 the wage of the RN for less than half the time spent in post secondary education.

My recommendation for trades over post secondary is for 'most' kids, the ones who do not have a 3.8 or better GPA and not likely to be accepted to Law, Medicine, Engineering etc.

Oh I know, and I didn't think you were being derogatory at all. And I might argue that it's mostly the "old guard" that might not see nurses on the same sort of "professionals" as doctors, lawyers, etc. I think that perception is rightly (but slowly) changing. I'll also add that in the US the days of doctors having independent practices have been rapidly coming to a close. Big business discovered medicine at least a decade ago and around here major hospital healthcare systems are buying up all the practices and employing doctors.

I'll also throw out that I know a good number of lawyers, doctors, and engineers who didn't have 3.8 or better GPAs.

 

[Sheepdog]

I know a number of "professionals" who don't have degrees at all. Perhaps the popular belief that a university degree is a guarantee of good employment has brought us to our young people's impasse. A sheepskin only opens the door...it is hard work, loyalty, and creative problem-solving that makes a successful professional. Particularly the ones who can create a positive team environment through the development of trust relationships...

John Rockefeller, Henry Ford, Steve Jobs, Michael Dell....none of them had a degree, yet they innovated and succeeded nonetheless. Perhaps we're not educating our kids completely. Perhaps they need to know more about the intangibles of success...

[DavidR8]

My dad came home from WWII and started out pounding stakes into the ground as a surveyor’s helper and 30 years later retired as a “Resident Highway Engineer” with no more formal education than grade 6.
I still have a number of his math and engineering texts neatly marked up with his notes.

I don’t know if that kind of career progression is possible today.



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[Arizona Wayne]

I thought being an RN is equivalent of a 4 year degree. 

Just because you earned a degree doesn't mean you are automatically competent in that genre.  It just means you  got the basics you will need for that skill.  OJT is where you will earn your real competence or not.

[Kev m]

I thought being an RN is equivalent of a 4 year degree. 

Just because you earned a degree doesn't mean you are automatically competent in that genre.  It just means you  got the basics you will need for that skill.  OJT is where you will earn your real competence or not.

No the RN was basically a 2 year associate's degree in nursing which was once the standard to enter the industry.

And yes I think that's true in most fields that school teaches the basics and training/residency/fellowship/apprenticeship etc. teach how to apply that in the real world.

I'm told the German education system does a great job teaching varied skill sets through different tracts.

One area that the US could really learn from is in how doctors are educated in much of the rest of the world.

In the US doctors waste 4 years and tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars on largely irrelevant courses in undergrad degrees to prove themselves and gain admissions to med school.

Then they spend 4 years in school, and 3-7 additional years of training through residency and fellowship.

In much of the rest of the world they at least skip the 4 years of undergrad.

Which would have meant my wife could have finished school/training by 28-29 instead of 32-33. Which may not seen like much but already being close to a decade behind other professions for salary, retirement savings, and even starting a family, can be tough.

Of course we're currently going the wrong way in this forcing nurses into BSN's instead of RN's. As it seems the only real differences are those general study courses there make up the non-nursing related bachelor's content.

[pebra]

I haven't followed the whole thread, but when saw this article in The Economist I thought it would be appropriate to let you in on it, as it to some extent illustrates parts of the thread.
Lengthy, but I found it very interesting. Is the second-to-the-last paragraph sort of summing it up?

AT THE gates of Santa Monica College, in Los Angeles, a young man with a skateboard is hanging out near a group of people who are smoking marijuana in view of the campus police. His head is clouded, too—but with worry, not weed. He frets about his student loans and the difficulty of finding a job, even fearing that he might end up homeless. “Not to sound intense,” he adds, but robots are taking work from humans. He neither smokes nor drinks much. The stigma against such things is stronger than it was for his parents’ generation, he explains.

Young people are indeed behaving and thinking differently from previous cohorts at the same age. These shifts can be seen in almost every rich country, from America to the Netherlands to South Korea. Some have been under way for many years, but they have accelerated in the past few. Not all of them are benign.

Perhaps the most obvious change is that teenagers are getting drunk less often (see chart). They start drinking later: the average age at which young Australians first try alcohol has risen from 14.4 to 16.1 since 1998. And even when they start, they sip rather than chug. In Britain, where a fifth of 16- to 24-year-olds do not drink at all, the number of pubs is falling by about 1,000 a year, and nightclubs are faring even worse. In the past young people went out for a drink and perhaps had something to eat at the same time, says Kate Nicholls, head of the Association of Licensed Multiple Retailers, a trade group. Now it is the other way round.

Other drugs are also falling from favour. Surveys by the European Monitoring Centre for Drugs and Drug Addiction show that the proportion of 15- to 16-year-olds who have tried cigarettes has been falling since 1999. A rising proportion of teenagers have never tried anything mind-altering, including alcohol, tobacco, cannabis, inhalants and sedatives. The proportion of complete abstainers rose from 11% to 31% in Sweden between 2003 and 2015, and from 23% to an astounding 61% in Iceland. In America, all illicit drugs except marijuana (which is not illicit everywhere) have become less popular. Mercifully, the decline in teenage opioid use is especially steep.

Nor are young people harming each other as much as they used to. Fighting among 13- and 15-year-olds is down across Europe. Juvenile crime and anti-social behaviour have dropped in England and Wales, and with them the number of juvenile convicts. In 2007 almost 3,000 young people were in custody; by 2016 the number was below 1,000.

Teenagers are also having less sex, especially of the procreative kind. In 1991, 54% of American teenagers in grades nine to 12 (ages 14-18) reported that they were sexually experienced, and 19% claimed to have had sex with at least four partners. In 2015 those proportions were 41% and 12%. America’s teenage birth rate crashed by two-thirds during the same period. As with alcohol, the abstention from sex seems to be carrying through into early adulthood. Jean Twenge, a psychologist at San Diego State University in California, has shown that the proportion of Americans aged 20-24 who report having no sexual partner since the age of 18 rose from 6.3% for the cohort born in the late 1960s to 15.2% for those born in the early 1990s. Japan is a more extreme case. In 2015, 47% of unmarried 20- to 24-year-old Japanese men said they had never had sex with a woman, up from 34% in 2002.

In short, young people are less hedonistic and break fewer rules than in the past. They are “kind of boring”, says Shoko Yoneyama, an expert on Japanese teenagers at the University of Adelaide. What is going on?

They tuck you up
One possible explanation is that family life has changed. A study of 11 countries by Giulia Dotti Sani and Judith Treas, two academics, found that parents spend much more time on child care. In America, the average parent spent 88 minutes a day primarily looking after children in 2012—up from 41 minutes in 1965. Fathers have upped their child-care hours most in proportional terms, though they still do much less than mothers. Because families are smaller, the hours are spread across fewer offspring.

Those doted-upon children seem to have turned into amenable teenagers. In 28 out of 34 rich countries surveyed by the World Health Organisation, the proportion of 15-year-old boys who said they found it easy to talk to their fathers rose between 2001-02 and 2013-14. Girls found it easier to talk to their fathers in 29 out of 34 countries. The trend for mothers is similar but less strong. And even teenagers who do not talk to their parents seem to listen to them. Dutch surveys show that teenagers have come to feel more pressure from their parents not to drink. That is probably the main reason for the decline in youthful carousing since 2003.

Another possibility is that teenagers and young people are more focused on school and academic work. Across the OECD club of rich countries, the share of 25- to 34-year-olds with a tertiary degree rose from 26% to 43% between 2000 and 2016. A larger proportion of teenagers believe they will go on to university.

As a result, they may be staying at home more. Mike Roe, who runs a drop-in youth club in Brighton, in southern England, says that ten or 15 years ago clubs like his often used to stay open until 11pm on school nights. That is now regarded as too late. Oddly, though, teenagers are not necessarily filling their evenings with useful work. Between 2003 and 2012, the amount of time 15-year-olds spent doing homework fell by an hour a week across the OECD, to just under five hours.

Meanwhile paid work is collapsing. In 2016 just 43% of American 16- to 19-year-olds were working in July, during the summer holidays—down from 65% two decades earlier. The retreat from lifeguarding and burger-flipping worries some Americans, including Ben Sasse, a senator from Nebraska, who argues that boring paid work builds character and resilience. Teenagers are no fools, however. The average 16- to 19-year-old American worker earned $9.20 an hour in 2016. Though an improvement on previous years, that is a pittance next to the cost of university tuition or the large and growing wage differential between professional-level jobs and the rest. The fall in summer working has been mirrored by a rise in summer studying.

Ann Hagell, a British adolescent psychologist, suggests another explanation. Today’s young people in Western countries are increasingly ethnically diverse. Britain, for example, has received large flows of immigrants from Africa, south Asia and eastern Europe. Many of those immigrants arrive with strong taboos against drinking, premarital sex and smoking—at least among girls—and think that only paupers send their children out to work. Ms Hagell points out that teenage drinking is rarest in London, where immigrants cluster.

Finally, technology has probably changed people’s behaviour. Teenagers are heavy internet users, the more so as they acquire smartphones. By their own account, 15-year-olds in OECD countries spent 146 minutes a day online on weeknights in 2015, up from 105 minutes in 2012. Chileans lead the rich world, putting in an average of 195 minutes on weekdays and 230 minutes on weekend days.

Social media allow teenagers’ craving for contact with peers to be squared with parents’ desire to keep their offspring safe and away from harmful substances. In America, surveys known as Monitoring the Future have recorded a decline in unsupervised hanging-out, which has been especially sharp since 2012. Teenagers who communicate largely online can exchange gossip, insults and nude pictures, but not bodily fluids, blows, or bottles of vodka.

The digital trade-off comes at a cost. Sophie Wasson, a psychologist at Harvard-Westlake, a private high school in Los Angeles, says that some teenagers seem to use social media as an alternative to face-to-face communication. In doing so, they pass up some opportunities to develop deep emotional connections with their friends, which are built on non-verbal cues as well as verbal ones. Ms Wasson believes that social media widen the gap between how teenagers feel about themselves and what they think their friends want them to be. Online, everybody else is always happy, good-looking and at a party.

Technology also enhances surveillance. Parents track their children’s phones and text frequently to ask where they are. Benjamin Pollack, a student at the University of Pennsylvania, remembers attending a camp in Israel when he was in high school. He communicated with his mother every day, using Facebook Messenger and other tools. As it happens, his mother had attended the same camp when she was a teenager. She contacted her own mother twice in eight weeks.

Worries about teenagers texting and playing computer games too much (and, before that, watching too much television) have largely given way to worries about smartphones and social media. Last November Chamath Palihapitiya, formerly a Facebook executive, said that his children were “not allowed to use that shit”. But strong evidence that technology is rewiring teenagers’ minds is so far lacking. American and British data show that, although heavy internet use is associated with unhappiness, the correlation is weak. One paper on Britain by Andrew Przybylski and Netta Weinstein suggests that heavy computer and smartphone use lower adolescents’ mood much less than skipping breakfast or skimping on sleep.

Still, something is up. Whether it is a consequence of phones, intrusive parenting, an obsessive focus on future job prospects or something else entirely, teenagers seem lonelier than in the past. The OECD’s PISA surveys show that the share of 15-year-olds who say they make friends easily at school has dropped in almost every country (see chart). Some Western countries are beginning to look like Japan and South Korea, which struggle with a more extreme kind of social isolation in which young people become virtual hermits.

Perhaps they will get round to close friendships in time. One way of thinking about the differences between the youth of today and yesterday is that today’s lot are taking it slow. They are slow to drink, have sex and earn money. They will also probably be slow to leave home, get married and have children. What looks to older generations like indolence and a reluctance to grow up might be, at least in part, a response to medical developments. Babies born today in a rich country can expect to live for at least 80 years. Goodness knows at what age they will be entitled to state pensions. Today’s young people have all the time in the world.

[Rough Edge racing]

I thought being an RN is equivalent of a 4 year degree. 

Just because you earned a degree doesn't mean you are automatically competent in that genre.  It just means you  got the basics you will need for that skill.  OJT is where you will earn your real competence or not.

 RN is offered in two and four year degrees.... Some nursing positions do require a BSN, some health facilities may prefer a BSN over associates degree...
  Dealing with the IBEW construction wiremen apprentices, top standing in the book learning was no guarantee of good practical job skills. Some were fearful of heights or claustrophobic...An d some were just not good with the tools..And some were just not cut out to be a construction worker....

[Bluerobotz]

That's a good article. I enjoyed reading it, but it is distressing. The economy is indeed rotten for many young people. When I was their age, one could easily find full-time work. Not so anymore. "It's no wonder we aren't buying new motorcycles; we can barely afford to pay our share of the monthly rent."

I have four boys in their mid-20s to early-30s. The only one doing okay is son #2, and that is because he went to Afghanistan and risked his life in 300 firefights so he could go to HVAC school on the GI Bill and get a job as a tradesman. The other three are struggling to pay rent because all they can find is part-time, minimum wage work--even son #1 with a degree from Seattle Pacific University. Son #3 is about to be evicted because he is behind on his rent...

The three younger boys all rode motorcycles for a time, but financial difficulties have resulted in the loss of their bikes. I do not expect any of them to do better economically than I have (except possibly son #4, but only if he goes to law school).

I suppose I could bail them out, but struggling is essential to growing stronger and continuing to search for better work, even if it means joining the army and going to war... In the meantime, no more motorcycles.

Be a robot engineer, or be engineered by robots. Law will be pretty much fully automated by 2025. Come to Australia, plenty of work for those who want to.

[Kev m]

Pebra - great article. A lot of that makes sense and rings true.

RN is offered in two and four year degrees.... Some nursing positions do require a BSN, some health facilities may prefer a BSN over associates degree...

Ooops, you're right I'm confusing ADN as an equivalent for RN, when really it's an RN may have an ADN or BSN.

http://www.innerbody.com/careers-in-health/nursing-degrees

That said, all of the major health systems anywhere near have been pushing lifelong career RNs who have only an ADN to get a BSN. So I don't think the 2-year degree ADN is really much of an option anymore or won't be soon enough.

[Lannis]

Pebra - great article. A lot of that makes sense and rings true.....

The article may certainly indicate things that are going on world-wide in an "aggregate" sense.

But I think as all the examples that have been called out in this thread indicate, an ambitious youngster, with his nose pointed toward the main chance instead of his phone, and who is not letting graphs and statistics worry him, will do very well ... maybe better than we did, maybe as well, maybe not as well.

But 90% of it's up to THEM, not up to some scary power beyond their control ....

To loop back to the OP, it's like the risk associated with riding a motorcycle.   The overall STATISTICS give us one picture, perhaps a daunting and scary one; but the STATISTICS include people riding drunk, people riding with no protection, people riding with insufficient skills or training, people riding too fast for conditions.    Eliminate all those, and just leave guys like you and me and the rest of this board who wear protection, who have taken training, who don't ride impaired, who maintain their bikes, and who watch for road conditions?   

Completely different outcomes .. !   And I think it's the same for kids today ... eliminate the coddled, phone-addicted, introverted, afraid-to-jump ones (or most of them, per generalizations), and it looks a LOT brighter.

Lannis

[Kev m]

The article may certainly indicate things that are going on world-wide in an "aggregate" sense.

But I think as all the examples that have been called out in this thread indicate, an ambitious youngster, with his nose pointed toward the main chance instead of his phone, and who is not letting graphs and statistics worry him, will do very well ... maybe better than we did, maybe as well, maybe not as well.

But 90% of it's up to THEM, not up to some scary power beyond their control ....

I don't see where the article contradicted any of that?