Author Topic: Old style fuel tap in injected bikes ??? How the????  (Read 20768 times)

oldbike54

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Re: Old style fuel tap in injected bikes ??? How the????
« Reply #90 on: January 12, 2018, 09:34:23 PM »
 Lucian , the OP isn't going back to carbs , he is just trying to figure out how to adapt a gas tank from a carbed model to an injected bike .

 Dusty

Offline Ozzydog

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Re: Old style fuel tap in injected bikes ??? How the????
« Reply #91 on: January 12, 2018, 11:25:27 PM »
Thanks Oldbike54, I have already done the adaptation and Im really happy with it. I like old school things that worked and would like a manual reserve petcock. Thats about it really. One thing never mentioned is in the Australian sunlight the yellow light isn't always very obvious but you can't miss fuel starvation!. I'm also planning a change to the 'dash' and one less light to accommodate would be a fine thing! Having said that, I am also so pleased with the size of the SP tank, much less reliant on fuel stops than the original Jackal tank, the mathematical method (counting Klms) would work as well.

BTW a very well know Guzzi man both on this board and in my local state has in fact converted a late model motor back to carbs and points ignition. And, let me tell you his bike goes like a shower of what have you. I've ridden modern sports bikes (lately a top spec Tuono with all the suspender upgrades) and wouldn't care to own one, I think they are potential wasted in 99% of the wankers who ride them hands and I actually feel after being a keen motorcyclist for now 52 years, having worked in the industry and in fact owned my own bike shop in Tasmania in the mid 80's , enjoyed D and C class classic racing on a 900SS and a Pantah 500, and in being a qualified rider training instructor, that in the wrong hands many modern sports bikes are quite dangerous on public roads.
I guess my avatar ought mention also that I own 2 Yamaha's, 2 Moto Guzzi and a Ducati.
Just saying I have thought this through!
Cheers everyone
Andy
ps if you have an old Cali or derivative and the hip thing , or the back thing is giving you the shits (although it took 40000KLMs to get to me) I can highly recommend converting to something that is unique and embodies both your requirements and the spirit of invention that once made motorcycling so personal and great.





Perhaps this topic is over now?

pete roper

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Re: Old style fuel tap in injected bikes ??? How the????
« Reply #92 on: January 12, 2018, 11:39:22 PM »
I'd never argue that most people who have bikes like a Tuono can't use a fraction of what they are capable of. Nor would I argue that the majority of the folks who own them can be, and often are, a menace to themselves or others. The point was no Tonti derivative is close to being a modern Sportsbike.

I don't own a modern Sportsbike partly for that reason. My bikes do everything I want or need but I'd never claim they were sportsbikes although the Griso is the closest thing to one that Guzzi has built in a few decades. It's too long, too heavy and not fast enough to be a 'Sports' bike. It doesn't stop it being a wonderful road tool though.

As for converting a fuel injected bike back to run points and carbs? Well that takes a special type of crazy.

Pete

Offline Ozzydog

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Re: Old style fuel tap in injected bikes ??? How the????
« Reply #93 on: January 13, 2018, 12:14:39 AM »
I think you know to whom I refer Pete:-) The only thing I can think of thats wrong with my L'unico is its so skinny it makes my arse look big!
That tank???? Emmuch

A

Offline Huzo

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Re: Old style fuel tap in injected bikes ??? How the????
« Reply #94 on: January 13, 2018, 01:47:25 AM »
I did (do) think that, though I guess you're about to teach me it doesn't due to force to the outside of the curve or something like that I presume?!?

But is that a constant? I mean the ad in acceleration, deceleration, changing the arc etc?

You're obviously entering into an area where my physics is weak, but I'm willing to learn.
Ok mate good on you.
When you lean the bike over, there is gravity trying to drag it down on it's side, (gravity acts toward the Earth's core) and the opposite to Centripetal force ( erroneously referred to as centrifugal force) trying to throw it out sideways, ( we'll call it centrifugal force, 'cos we all know what we mean).
This is the force you feel in a car when going 'round a turn.
The sum (or total reaction) of these two forces is the RESULTANT force and it acts directly down through your torso and the contact patch of the tyres.
This Kev, has to be the case or the bike would tip toward the "outside" of the turn, like a sidecar rig wants to do in a right hand turn ( in your country).
If you want an example of the downward gravitational vector that I first mentioned, go out to one of your bikes and lean it over to the left while stationary, that familiar weight you bear, is gravity trying to throw it on it's side, and the "centrifugal" (sic) force is fighting to pick it up.
When they are in balance, the total is down through the centre line.
Now in a balanced left turn for instance, the bike is leaning to the left and the force of gravity is trying to keep the surface of the fuel horizontal, and the "centrifugal" force is trying to throw it outward to cause the fuel surface to be vertical. They add up together to balance in the middle.
The best example is water in a bucket.
Fill it to an inch from the top and hold it with a straight arm, start to spin around, and you'll see that the surface remains parallel to the top lip of the bucket.
Same as in your tank.
Glad you asked ?
Accelerations will throw the fuel mass fore or aft for sure, but only until the change of velocity (acceleration) ceases, then normal service will be resumed.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2018, 01:53:03 AM by Huzo »

Online Kev m

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Re: Old style fuel tap in injected bikes ??? How the????
« Reply #95 on: January 13, 2018, 05:24:17 AM »
Ok mate good on you.
When you lean the bike over, there is gravity trying to drag it down on it's side, (gravity acts toward the Earth's core) and the opposite to Centripetal force ( erroneously referred to as centrifugal force) trying to throw it out sideways, ( we'll call it centrifugal force, 'cos we all know what we mean).
This is the force you feel in a car when going 'round a turn.
The sum (or total reaction) of these two forces is the RESULTANT force and it acts directly down through your torso and the contact patch of the tyres.
This Kev, has to be the case or the bike would tip toward the "outside" of the turn, like a sidecar rig wants to do in a right hand turn ( in your country).
If you want an example of the downward gravitational vector that I first mentioned, go out to one of your bikes and lean it over to the left while stationary, that familiar weight you bear, is gravity trying to throw it on it's side, and the "centrifugal" (sic) force is fighting to pick it up.
When they are in balance, the total is down through the centre line.
Now in a balanced left turn for instance, the bike is leaning to the left and the force of gravity is trying to keep the surface of the fuel horizontal, and the "centrifugal" force is trying to throw it outward to cause the fuel surface to be vertical. They add up together to balance in the middle.
The best example is water in a bucket.
Fill it to an inch from the top and hold it with a straight arm, start to spin around, and you'll see that the surface remains parallel to the top lip of the bucket.
Same as in your tank.
Glad you asked ?
Accelerations will throw the fuel mass fore or aft for sure, but only until the change of velocity (acceleration) ceases, then normal service will be resumed.
All makes sense and I honestly never thought about how it effects the fuel before.

That said how steady is that result? I mean does the counter steer to initiate the turn, the initial lean, or changing the rate of the turn (such as changing the acceleration vector) have any momentary effect on that level.

I feel like in that bucket example when playing with those forces as a child there was some splashing?

No matter, for the earlier discussion there's still the fore and aft effect of acceleration and braking (which explains some of what I've felt over the years on carb bikes).

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Offline tris

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Re: Old style fuel tap in injected bikes ??? How the????
« Reply #96 on: January 13, 2018, 06:23:20 AM »
Well this thread took a wild and interesting ride since I was last here!

The accuracy or otherwise of my fuel level warning light doesn't really vex me

If it flashes once in a while, when braking/cornering or accelerating I think that I'll need to fill up before long

If it stays on all the time I think I need a fuel station soon

And I cannot foresee any circumstance where the level of the fuel in the tank half way round a corner would be anywhere on my priority list

That being said if the OP wants a reserve tank on a FI bike, I'm sure he's more than capable of making his own decisions.

Good luck with the build
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Offline Huzo

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Re: Old style fuel tap in injected bikes ??? How the????
« Reply #97 on: January 13, 2018, 08:10:44 AM »
Yeah Kev.
It will be in a steady state until accelerated in any direction by an external force.
Certainly when you first pitch it into a turn, you are deviating from the direction the fuel mass is travelling, so yes, there will be an amount of sloshing in the tank due to that.
How long will it take to settle after that ?
No bloody idea !!

Offline lucian

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Re: Old style fuel tap in injected bikes ??? How the????
« Reply #98 on: January 13, 2018, 08:13:20 AM »
Lucian , the OP isn't going back to carbs , he is just trying to figure out how to adapt a gas tank from a carbed model to an injected bike .

 Dusty

Got It , I thought he just was trying to create a "reserve"  on a FI bike. I'm not sure how the sensation of fuel starvation will be with FI. Most know the feeling on a carb  bike but my guess is it will be a sudden chop with fi.  To be honest , I've never run a FI bike out of gas , Yet. Can't imagine starving the pump of flow too many time will be good for it, but I wish the OP the best with his quest. 


Offline lucian

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Re: Old style fuel tap in injected bikes ??? How the????
« Reply #99 on: January 13, 2018, 08:17:01 AM »
I'd never argue that most people who have bikes like a Tuono can't use a fraction of what they are capable of. Nor would I argue that the majority of the folks who own them can be, and often are, a menace to themselves or others.

Pete
I concur, but it's still stupid fun.

Orange Guzzi

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Re: Old style fuel tap in injected bikes ??? How the????
« Reply #100 on: January 13, 2018, 09:20:30 AM »
I concur, but it's still stupid fun.

Like blowing the head off a hydro motor.  I going to give it one hell of a try. 

Offline antmanbee

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Re: Old style fuel tap in injected bikes ??? How the????
« Reply #101 on: January 13, 2018, 10:15:34 AM »
See my comment above.  I replace my f.i. tank with a Lemans 3 tank.  The double petcock outlets had the same  threads as the stock f.i. tank. I  put the original f.i. petcock on the left side and the fuel pressure regulator on the right.  I have seen pictures of the set up in reverse.   I made up a threaded weld nipple out of a hydraulic hose fitting and welded onto the tank before drilling a hole.  After welding the threaded nipple on, I drilled through the tank.  I made up a nut  fitting with female threads that match the nipple threads out of a female hydraulic hose fitting with matching threads.  Slid the stock f.i. fuel level sending unit in, fed the wires through nut, tightened the nut up.  No leaks.  Reads full brightness with a little over 1 u.s. gallon left in the tank. 

Orange Guzzi,

Do you have any pictures of the hydraulic hose fitting modification? What part did you use and where did you get it? My welding level is pretty basic so what did you use to weld with?


Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: Old style fuel tap in injected bikes ??? How the????
« Reply #103 on: January 16, 2018, 12:05:52 PM »

Perhaps this topic is over now?
NO we need to see  :gotpics: the rear end view looks interesting.

I expect you get some sort of warning when you get low on gas, I don't believe it will harm the pump

BTW, if you upgrade the idiot lamps to LEDs they are more visible in bright sunlight, you can dim the high beam by adding enough resistance so it's not too bright at night, 50 kOhm would be about right, the fuel warning LED needs some resistance in parallel, I just use one of the old lamps tucked away behind.
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Offline guzzisteve

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Re: Old style fuel tap in injected bikes ??? How the????
« Reply #104 on: January 16, 2018, 12:40:38 PM »
Screw all that crap, you can look right in a Tonti tank. Carry a short stick under the seat to check level. 5 1/2 gal is 200mi put in some fuel. 300mi on most if cruising on a trip.
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Online Kev m

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Re: Old style fuel tap in injected bikes ??? How the????
« Reply #105 on: January 16, 2018, 01:21:15 PM »
I expect you get some sort of warning when you get low on gas, I don't believe it will harm the pump

I don't think occasionally running it dry is going to hurt. But then again we've seen fuel pumps destroyed by malfunctioning taps in relatively short order. And there's a reason manufacturers all went to low fuel lights instead of mechanical petcocks on EFI bikes and it wasn't to make their bikes more expensive/less competitive.

Since we're talking about a pump that likes what 30-40 psi it's moving pretty good and I suspect that there are going to be a lot of times when the fuel cut would take the rider by more surprise than would one or more float bowls. So that might mean more time the pump is running each time before the lever is flipped and a slightly delay as the fuel getting to it finally starts to siphon in as quick as necessary for optimal operating pressure. So I suspect the lurching to be more severe and slightly longer.

All in all, I don't expect it will be fun.
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Offline Ozzydog

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Re: Old style fuel tap in injected bikes ??? How the????
« Reply #106 on: January 16, 2018, 11:44:10 PM »
I see your point KevM, but I take the opposite view to "All in all, I don't expect it will be fun.
[/e]"
It will be fun, thats the point. Maybe it will work, maybe it won't. It will be fun to try but! And thats the point also the only way to know is to try! lets put it this way, My first try of making side covers that hinged but had no rivet or bolts on view failed after a short while. The missus said "thats a shame!" I said 'Not really, now I get the fun of trying a different style.
And for Kiwi Roy, these are a few weeks ago, It looks even better now,,,, and Im not finished.
Best compliment was a great mate who has been away for a month came round, saw the bike and could not believe it was my 'Jackal' Whoo Hoo!
Andy




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Online Kev m

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Re: Old style fuel tap in injected bikes ??? How the????
« Reply #107 on: January 17, 2018, 05:08:09 AM »
I see your point KevM, but I take the opposite view to "All in all, I don't expect it will be fun.
[/e]"
It will be fun, thats the point. Maybe it will work, maybe it won't. It will be fun to try but! And thats the point also the only way to know is to try! lets put it this way, My first try of making side covers that hinged but had no rivet or bolts on view failed after a short while. The missus said "thats a shame!" I said 'Not really, now I get the fun of trying a different style.
And for Kiwi Roy, these are a few weeks ago, It looks even better now,,,, and Im not finished.
Best compliment was a great mate who has been away for a month came round, saw the bike and could not believe it was my 'Jackal' Whoo Hoo!
Andy




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And I hear you too and have no problem with that attitude. Good luck with it.

Hope it doesn't fail.
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Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: Old style fuel tap in injected bikes ??? How the????
« Reply #108 on: January 17, 2018, 11:04:54 AM »
I like what you have done to the Jackal, the old sperm shaped tanks and seat left something to be desired.
I take it you used a T3 tank with an extra 6 Liters of capacity, worth doing for that alone.

Some have pointed out that the fuel flow is a lot higher since it has to circulate (6 Liters per minute not 9). If this results in fuel starvation I suggest adding a small circulation tank after the relief valve so it doesn't all have to leave via the petcock every loop,  this would cut down to one hose from the tank just delivering the fuel to be consumed.
Would need to have provision to purge any air.

I thought about doing that to my VII Sport but for a different reason, they run out of fuel with a significant amount trapped in the RH side of tank, I came up with a simpler solution.

What's not to love about an electric petcock, I've had 3 with never a problem.
 
« Last Edit: January 17, 2018, 11:08:49 AM by Kiwi_Roy »
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Re: Old style fuel tap in injected bikes ??? How the????
« Reply #109 on: January 17, 2018, 11:22:30 AM »
What's not to love about an electric petcock, I've had 3 with never a problem.

I've seen more than a few fail. Wire breaks off, internal fault and it just stops working or the worst one - internal fault causes a short through the tank.  :shocked:
Charlie

Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: Old style fuel tap in injected bikes ??? How the????
« Reply #110 on: January 17, 2018, 01:26:49 PM »
I've seen more than a few fail. Wire breaks off, internal fault and it just stops working or the worst one - internal fault causes a short through the tank.  :shocked:
Yes, I always ty-wrap the leads to the body so they don't snap where thy exit.

Worst thing I have seen is where the PO has swapped the plug with the fuel level sensor and fried that, happened on both my EV tanks, the VII Sport was keyed to prevent it.
Being a sparky I am more tolerant of electric bits I guess.
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Offline malik

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Re: Old style fuel tap in injected bikes ??? How the????
« Reply #111 on: January 17, 2018, 05:50:59 PM »
Well done, Ozzydog. I like what youve done. You've modified the Jackal's ergonomics to suit you, increased the range (no small matter on this little Island of ours) and in so doing transformed the Jackal from an over-sized Nevada into a proper-looking motorcycle. (Biased? Who says I'm biased? - now waiting for my Cali mates to jump all over me). Nothing wrong with skinny - looking good, and you usually can't see you're rear when riding anyway - not a factor. Let us know how well the tank mod works out long term.

If you could get to it, please detail the tank mod & fitting - in, say, the build section, to guide those of us who come after. Thanks.
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Offline Ozzydog

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Re: Old style fuel tap in injected bikes ??? How the????
« Reply #112 on: January 18, 2018, 12:20:47 AM »
Sincere thanks to Malik, Kiwi Roy and Kev M for nice messages.
I will detail the build in the build section, in about 5 weeks I'm taking L'unico for a shakedown run (2500KLMS) on a tour of Tassie with the Vic Guzzi Club miscreants. I did 360KLMs first ride the other day first run up through Toolangi, Myers Creek, Black Spur and Alex through Yea and back to the burg and could not be happier. I reckon she work out just fine. Anyone who ever had the luck to meet the now sadly departed Mick Battenburg ( Makita make it neater) or his T bike Spike, will know what Im aiming for. I miss Mick so much, partly this build is about referencing him and thanking him in retrospect for his Guzzi antics.
Cheers till later
Andy

Offline malik

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Re: Old style fuel tap in injected bikes ??? How the????
« Reply #113 on: January 18, 2018, 05:12:13 AM »
That time of year again for the miscreants' Tassie run? - time flies - that should give it a decent work out. Enjoy. Yes, Mick liked skinny - and removing anything that wasn't strictly necessary & refining what was. Always a work in progress. It looks like you're on the way with that one.
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Offline lazlokovacs

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Re: Old style fuel tap in injected bikes ??? How the????
« Reply #114 on: January 18, 2018, 05:42:29 AM »
I don't have a reserve light or trip meter on my loop!

On a long run, its easy to calculate

otherwise you just develop a sense for when to refill, the weight of the bike is a clue....


 


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