Old style fuel tap in injected bikes ??? How the????

[Ozzydog]

Hi again, Some great minds on this forum (maybe Orange Guzzi, boy am I ever going to buy him a drink if we ever meet, what a great help his comments usually are, thank you Sir!) mentioned fitting an old style fuel tap on an injected bike so that you can have a real actual reserve. I can't see how the same internal diameter hose can fit both the old style fuel tap spigot and the inlet pipe on the pump? Does one swell a smaller hose over the pump inlet or maybe use a reducer at the tap end? I have a tap but Im just not sure.
Please let me know what you know if you have done this before. After this it'll be one less coloured light on the dash as well :-)

Andy

[beetle]

This is the stupidest thing I've ever heard..

[tris]

This is the stupidest thing I've ever heard..

 :1:

Whats wrong with a light on the dash that tells you that you only have a gallon left in the tank 

[pete roper]

Not so fast guys!

We don't know what 'Older' FI bike.

On older big blocks with external fuel pumps there were some models that had a solenoid, some models had a tap. The whole idea was that you could turn the fuel off so that when you needed to remove the tank you didn't just get petrol running out all over the place.

With the external pumps you had a pressure relief valve in the return line to the front of the tank which also has to be disconnected when the tank is removed but as its up high it won't leak unless the tank is absolutely full or the remover is a complete idiot, (I've managed it a couple of times! . The tank outlet though relied on the solenoid or the tap.

The solenoids were shite, the taps are also shite and because they are used so infrequently the threads seize and you can't turn them fully off! So you still get drenched in petrol! .

The tap though is NOT your standard issue Tonti type tap. It's a crappy piece of poorly thought out pressed tin with a much larger spigot than the earlier taps. Yes, it's a lot more sensible than the solenoid tap but if you want it to keep working you have to remember to open and close it regularly.

No wonder they went to an internal pump!

Pete

[beetle]

"Actual reserve" is the key phrase. No mention of the difficultly of tank removal.

I stand by my original reaction.

[malik]

:1:

Whats wrong with a light on the dash that tells you that you only have a gallon left in the tank 

But when the light on the dash indicates 2 or 3 gallons left, it's worse than useless. I can see why one could want something more useful. Once you've got an internal fuel pump though, retrofitting the old technologies doesn't seem appropriate. It's likely to be easier to play around with the thingymijig that sets off that light. The fact that there is not an easy or well-known fix around likely means that most of us have learned to live with it.

[pete roper]

"Actual reserve" is the key phrase. No mention of the difficultly of tank removal.

I stand by my original reaction.

Point taken, I just skimmed the OP.

Mal's point is salient.

Pete

[beetle]

Mal's point is salient.

Agreed.

[antmanbee]

I think the OP is trying to use a T3 tank on a Stone , EV or Jackal type bike and wants to use one tap for outlet to fuel pump and one tap for return. Orangeguzzi has done this before I think.
There is no provision for a fuel level sensor on the older style tank. So a reserve petcock would be of value. Also for tank removal the petcocks could be closed.
To me the question is will the petcock be able to supply enough fuel to the pump.

[Kev m]

I think the OP is trying to use a T3 tank on a Stone , EV or Jackal type bike and wants to use one tap for outlet to fuel pump and one tap for return. Orangeguzzi has done this before I think.
There is no provision for a fuel level sensor on the older style tank. So a reserve petcock would be of value. Also for tank removal the petcocks could be closed.
To me the question is will the petcock be able to supply enough fuel to the pump.

And, if that's case, the other question is will repeatedly allowing the fuel pump up run dry for a few seconds each time you reach reserve damage the pump which is cooled by fuel flow.

Fwiw I retrofitted a mechanical tap to my Jackal for the reasons Pete stated. But I still had the rest of the plumbing and the low fuel light, which was quite reliable.

[Orange Guzzi]

This is the fuel tap I used.  It has a fuel filter on the inlet.  I removed the fuel filter canister with the t fitting on one end and inlet on the opposite end along with about 5 feet of hose.  I have not had a problem, yet with fuel contamination at the injector. 

http://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=30&products_id=39

I replaced the fuel filter with one of these fittings.  One end from fuel pump, two outlets to the fuel injectors. 

http://wholesalebeerparts.com/Beer-System-Fittings/Stainless-Steel-Fittings-%E2%80%9CY%E2%80%9D-Bends

The two threaded outlets on the Lemans 3 tank were the same thread as on the 2003 tank. 

I used hydrualic hose fitting to make a weld bung and nut assembly to hold the fuel level gage in the tank. 

[Tusayan]

It would be great if fuel injection allowed a real reserve, as the more accurate fuel management that comes with carbs and a reserve petcock allows you to extract more mileage safely from a given fuel tank size:  when a carburated bike runs dry on the main ('on') petcock setting it does so quickly and unambiguously, telling you exactly how much fuel you have before you're walking.  You can then reset your riding style to extract a given amount of range and reset you trip meter to know how much you've used from that point.  If you know the bike well you then understand your range within about 5 miles relative to the trip meter reading, all the way unti it runs empty.  Conversely, with the low fuel lights fitted to motorcycles, you generally start getting a flashing light ridiculously early (e.g. 2.7 gallons used from a 4.4 gallon tank) and then it slowly starts to flash more and more until it's solid.  At no point can you reasonably judge your absolute range from current position, especially given that hills, acceleration, and othe factors affect the fuction of the light.

Unfortuntely, as described by others, the basic design of EFI makes it difficult to implement a real reserve. The best we can hope for is that over time the manufacturers will improve the function of the fuel gauges, low fuel lights and range to empty indicators until they make a complex system work as well as a simple reserve petcock and trip meter.

[Kev m]

It would be great if fuel injection allowed a real reserve, as the more accurate fuel management that comes with carbs and a reserve petcock allows you to extract more mileage safely from a given fuel tank size:  when a carburated bike runs dry on the main ('on') petcock setting it does so quickly and unambiguously, telling you exactly how much fuel you have before you're walking.  You can then reset your riding style to extract a given amount of range and reset you trip meter to know how much you've used from that point.  If you know the bike well you then understand your range within about 5 miles relative to the trip meter reading, all the way unti it runs empty.  Conversely, with the low fuel lights fitted to motorcycles, you generally start getting a flashing light ridiculously early (e.g. 2.7 gallons used from a 4.4 gallon tank) and then it slowly starts to flash more and more until it's solid.  At no point can you reasonably judge your absolute range from current position, especially given that hills, acceleration, and othe factors affect the fuction of the light.

I disagree and your example is wildly general.

Unless there's a float that is prone to sticking the action of the low fuel light can be just as mechanically representative and unambiguously accurate as the mechanical fuel level of a petcock feed pipe.

As a matter of fact in the more the nearly dozen EFI bikes that I've owned from Harley, Buell, BMW, Ducati, and Guzzi every single one has been doggedly accurate, their lights illuminating quickly to a solid light that, if the tank was refilled at that exact point, would represent the same predictable amount of fuel.

Now yes, one or two of them did come on a little early, for example my V7 originally would light at 3.8g used, which seemed way too early at the time since we were originally told those tanks were 5.8g. Subsequently we learned they were actually 5.5g which made it a little better, but a small repositioning of the sensor yielded me my current illumination at exactly 4.0g which makes the math easy. But this could happen with a carb bike if the petcock stay pipe was unusually tall.

Back on point - you mention:

" At no point can you reasonably judge your absolute range from current position, especially given that hills, acceleration, and othe factors affect the fuction of the light."

To assume this is not the exact same as a carbureted bike with a petcock is a mistake.

A carbureted bike is not somehow immune to the sloshing change of fuel in the tank from hills, acceleration, or braking. It CAN buffer it slightly as the float bowl can operate partially full as a bike runs uphill or is leaned and the petcock fill pipe is momentarily above the fuel level.

Actually, if you think about it, in this case the carbureted bike might not spit or give an indication that it is close to the reserve level and as such hide the condition even longer than an EFI bike.

But if a carbureted bike does spit/buck, then it is the mechanical equivalent of the float or sensor momentarily illuminating the light to indicate the same fuel level.

For some reason, perhaps an innate distrust in electronics, the old guard sometimes can't see this and make this false claim that somehow a carbureted petcock reserve is somehow more real than the electronically indicated reserve of an EFI bike. The only time this can possibly be true is if the EFI light failed completely and without the knowledge of the rider. Of course it would then just be the equivalent of a carbureted bike operator leaving the petcock in reserve after a fillup.

So in both cases, carb or EFI it simply behooves the riders to know his/her bike.

1. Reset the trip meter at each fill up and know your typical/average mileage.
2. Know how much usable fuel is left if you fill up IMMEDIATELY after hitting reserve/illuminating the light.

If you know those two things, then the moment you hit reserve or the light comes on you can check the tripmeter, do a quick calculation and know your current average mpg (and if it's better or worse than usual). At that point the knowledge of how much usable fuel is left will yield distance to empty.

If you know these things you can also start to wonder, if far past the typical reserve/illumination point if you need to check that A. you didn't leave the carb petcock in reserve or B. maybe start to doubt the EFI light.

Bottom line, both the petcock stay pipe and the EFI light measure the EXACT SAME THING, the fuel level in the tank.

[Guzzi Gal]

This is the stupidest thing I've ever heard...

Ouch!   

1. Reset the trip meter at each fill up and know your typical/average mileage.
2. Know how much usable fuel is left if you fill up IMMEDIATELY after hitting reserve/illuminating the light.

^^^    ^^^
Working on gathering this very data. 

[Kev m]

Quote from: Kev m on Today at 11:08:22 AM
1. Reset the trip meter at each fill up and know your typical/average mileage.
2. Know how much usable fuel is left if you fill up IMMEDIATELY after hitting reserve/illuminating the light.

^^^    ^^^
Working on gathering this very data.

The challenge comes in the second one, be it carb or EFI, the only REAL WAY to know for sure is to run it until it starts to miss regularly or stalls completely. If you can carry a half-gallon or so on board (say a sealed Tru-Fuel container or some other safe fuel source) then you can dump it in and hopefully all but immediately fill the tank to know for sure.

Or the other way is to slowly push you luck, a little more, a little more, time after time, and get where you're happy with your knowledge of your reserve.

In the case of my V7, the math is easy - the light comes on at 4.0, and I have filled it up with about 5.1g, maybe almost 5.2g, so I KNOW that when the light comes on I divide my trip-meter by 4 and and I know I have at least that much left in the tank (since I know I have AT LEAST a gallon left).

YMMV, literally.

[rodekyll]

I think the OP is trying to use a T3 tank on a Stone , EV or Jackal type bike and wants to use one tap for outlet to fuel pump and one tap for return. Orangeguzzi has done this before I think.
There is no provision for a fuel level sensor on the older style tank. So a reserve petcock would be of value. Also for tank removal the petcocks could be closed.
To me the question is will the petcock be able to supply enough fuel to the pump.

OP mentions none of this. The only reason he's giving is for the reserve feature.  So either you're reading a lot into the post, the author has written the poorest topic post ever, the author is a troll, and/or Beetle is right.

To answer the OP -- the Bosch pump (type 044) comes in many flavors that have the same pump but different spigot angles and sizes.  Some have AN-threaded bungs and you can add your favorite sized barb.  Find a Bosch 044 or 044 clone on ebay with the spigots you want and replace yours.  Otherwise use a reducing barb.  I don't like the reducing barb option myself.  It's not elegant.

[oldbike54]

 The OP has been a member here for years , he just doesn't post much . I can understand what he is considering , it really kinda makes sense .

 Dusty

[Tusayan]

To assume this is not the exact same as a carbureted bike with a petcock is a mistake.

No, it is a not a mistake.  In the case of an engine fed by a carb, the fuel reservoir (float bowl) damps the response to intermittent fuel delivery so that when the engine finally quits, it's at a predictable fuel tank level and it's done.   You could create a similar situation with the response of the circuit design for a fuel light (my Suzuki comes close) but most motorcycles including Guzzis do not.

As for your 'old guard' comment and generally CAPS ON tone, calm it down.  You clearly have no idea who I am or what I do for a living and while that's the way it's going to stay, assumptions are not warranted.

[rodekyll]

Nobody's concerned about the amount of time the OP has been on the board.  My concern is that there are two completely different interpretations of his topic post and he's not returning to clarify himself.

[oldbike54]

Nobody's concerned about the amount of time the OP has been on the board.  My concern is that there are two completely different interpretations of his topic post and he's not returning to clarify himself.

 Probably because he is in OZ , middle of the night there isn't it ?

 Dusty

[rodekyll]

It wasn't too late at night for a handful of his neighbors to comment.  The confusion was well jelled immediately.

[oldbike54]

It wasn't too late at night for a handful of his neighbors to comment.  The confusion was well jelled immediately.

 Yeah , but those two seem to never sleep 

 Dusty

[Kev m]

Quote from: Kev m on Today at 11:08:22 AM
"At no point can you reasonably judge your absolute range from current position, especially given that hills, acceleration, and othe factors affect the fuction of the light."


To assume this is not the exact same as a carbureted bike with a petcock is a mistake.

A carbureted bike is not somehow immune to the sloshing change of fuel in the tank from hills, acceleration, or other factors like lean angle. It CAN buffer it slightly as the float bowl can operate partially full as a bike runs uphill or is leaned and the petcock fill pipe is momentarily above the fuel level.

Actually, if you think about it, in this case the carbureted bike might not spit or give an indication that it is close to the reserve level and as such hide the condition even longer than an EFI bike.

But if a carbureted bike does spit/buck, then it is the mechanical equivalent of the float or sensor momentarily illuminating the light to indicate the same fuel level.

No, it is a not a mistake.  In the case of an engine fed by a carb, the fuel reservoir (float bowl) damps the response to intermittent fuel delivery so that when the engine finally quits, it's at a predictable fuel tank level and it's done.   You could create a similar situation with the response of the circuit design for a fuel light (my Suzuki comes close) but most motorcycles including Guzzis do not.

Wait, are you claiming that because fuel present in the float bowl can continue to deliver fuel and keep the engine running, that once it runs out for certain you area 100% that on all carbureted bikes the level is more precisely measurable and repeatable than it is once the low fuel light remains on and steady in an EFI bike?

Edited for accuracy, eliminating references to lean, thanks for the physics lessons gentlemen:

You are therefore dismissing that hills, acceleration, and frankly simply differences in tank shape and design can have any effect on this? Not to mention assuming that all low fuel lights operate the same way and are not damped electronically in any way?

Personally I think you have failed to address or counter my argument that the intermittent lighting of a low fuel light due to hills, acceleration, etc. can mimic the potential of a carburetor to warn you (by spitting or bucking) when it is close to reserve. And therefore the amount of fuel left in the tank can be very predictable in either case.

I also don't accept the absoluteness of your aforementioned fuel level when it cuts out.


But there's the crux of it. Both the point of low fuel light activation and the point at which the petcock fuel stay pipe is up and out of the fuel represent the exact same thing, they represent a pre-determined, repeatable, measurable point in the tank. Though one that can and will be effected slightly (carb or EFI) by ambient conditions/usage - braking, acceleration, etc.

You have the same data either way, barring some quirk in the light circuit on a Suzuki that I do not know about/haven't experienced. But the consistency of the other brands I mentioned that I've owned tells me it's not necessarily the case for all EFI bikes.

As for your 'old guard' comment and generally CAPS ON tone, calm it down.  You clearly have no idea who I am or what I do for a living and while that's the way it's going to stay, assumptions are not warranted.

The only assumption I have made was based on reading other posts, which tell me that you are not a "babe in the woods" when it comes to motorcycles. So I HAVE made an assumption, but it is that you come at this with some, probably not insignificant, amount of experience. Past that I make no assumptions of career, education, knowledge etc.

I did however draw a parallel to your position and one that I often find in older/experienced riders who are more familiar with carb bikes. Though I did not assume that the correlation was causation.

As for the CAPS ON tone, I'm happy to say that you are simply making an assumption about me. I do so for emphasis, not necessarily shouting, but perhaps translate it as my Italian side, talking with my hands making gestures and tones that place some more weight on those words, as visual highlights. No anger, offense, or other emotions included or intended.

[Huzo]

Probably because he is in OZ , middle of the night there isn't it ?

 Dusty

I just got up for my first wee Dusty.
So all of Australia has now got no excuse to be in bed !!!
 

[beetle]

 :1: What Kev m says.

People need to know & understand their motorcycle. More so than relying on "nannies" to look after them.

Yes, that means knowing how much fuel you're using in any given riding condition.

[Tom]

Hey, if you want, you can carb you bike too.     Get rid of all that pesky FI stuff too.       

[Huzo]

:1: What Kev m says.

People need to know & understand their motorcycle. More so than relying on "nannies" to look after them.

Yes, that means knowing how much fuel you're using in any given riding condition.

To give a  :1: to what Kev says is drawing a bit of a long bow, he's not on his own in this regard but he does say a fair bit..
He also thinks that fuel level alters when a bike leans over while riding...
So, Ummm.

[Kev m]

To give a  :1: to what Kev says is drawing a bit of a long bow, he's not on his own in this regard but he does say a fair bit..
He also thinks that fuel level alters when a bike leans over while riding...
So, Ummm.

I didn't say volume remaining changed, I said the "level" in the tank, as measured by or as compared to the mechanical or electro-mechanical device "changed" when you lean over... Ya know, kinda like how the beer goes from just sitting there to pouring over the top when you tilt the glass back. 

[oldbike54]

 Actually I've been considering putting carbs on the Jackal , a nice set of diaphragm Bings . Gets rid of the fuel pump , and simplifies things . My bike , I can do what I want with it , right ?

 Dusty

[Huzo]

I didn't say volume remaining changed, I said the "level" in the tank, as measured by or as compared to the mechanical or electro-mechanical device "changed" when you lean over... Ya know, kinda like how the beer goes from just sitting there to pouring over the top when you tilt the glass back. 

Yes Kev.
I've heard it said before that the LEVEL of the fuel where the float takes it's reading alters when leaning over as in your example of continuously turning left on a circular track.
Suffice to say that the surface of the fuel mass will not alter in relation to the inside of the tank as a result of banking over.
Could you read your response again and clean up the wording if you think it's necessary ?
ie "volume remaining changed" ?