Finally, the Harley Davidson death rattle.....

[twowheeladdict]

HD has produced a bike (The Road King e.g.) for the major part of the US, wide open relatively flat with straight(ish) highways.  They will always have a market until a new set of mountains rise up just West of the Mississippi River and East of the Rockies.  They have adapted pretty well over the past hundred, I suspect they will yet again.

I live in the curves and the Road King does fine in the curves.  I can take any curves above the speed limit.  No, I can't take them at double the speed limit like an SS bike can, but I wouldn't anyway so no point in owning an SS bike.

[twowheeladdict]

So here's the problem as I see it.

Let's be honest, even though many manufacturers now require brake fluid flushes, MANY MANY people don't do it with any frequency (I'd say the vast majority of bike and auto/truck owners ignore this or at LEAST push it off to much longer intervals).

BUT, that doesn't cause mass failures in most cases. Whether we're talking BMW, Ducati, Guzzi or Chevy, Nissan, Fiat.

However, it looks like for whatever reason, on these late-model Harleys with ABS there have been a number of failures to the system (I'm assuming modulator related) that cause problems which rise to the level of NHTSA recall involvement.

And though I generally defend Harley against unreasonable expectations or accusations, I'm not taking their side on this one.

You can't sell a motor vehicle in this day and age that may crash if the owner doesn't change the brake fluid every 2 years. That's unreasonable in my eyes.

With Harley ABS bikes you have to use a diagnostic tool to open the valves in the ABS unit in order to flush / change the fluid properly.  So, guys who think they are changing the fluid, aren't if they don't use the diagnostic tool.

[twowheeladdict]

A man after my own heart! We have the same Road King (I bought it just because I loved the silver/blue, but that Milwaukee Eight motor is phenomenal). Looks like you have a Road Glide Ultra at the end of the line . . . but mine is two-tone red . . . not the blue.

On Day 1 with a new Road King, the windshield is removed and hung on the wall. When I gave away my 2007 Road King, its windshield was still brand new (and my friend always rides it with the shield, so he's happy).

I had the Road Glide Ultra first and chose the blue road king so I could move the tour pack over for longer rides in the summer when it is too hot to be behind a full fairing.

[twowheeladdict]

You know, for the record, that would make someone look petty and small, in a way not all that dis-similar to the "dip shots" who ride them. Just saying... 

Not unlike the people who "hate" Tom Brady because he is a winning quarterback with a supermodel wife.   

When reporters asked people why they hated the Pats and Tom Brady in particular they couldn't give a response without looking petty.  People tend to hate anyone/anything that is on top. 

[Turin]

What is nor disputed is there was a species of western camel that lived in north America up to 10,000 years ago and became extinct. How closely related it is to the eastern Camel (the ones we are familiar with) is in dispute. From what I have read it is more closely related to Alpacas, Llamas, and Guanacos.

Camels lived here, sure. Is the Camel as we know it today indigenous to North America ? I have not seen any proof of that.

[Orange Guzzi]

What is nor disputed is there was a species of western camel that lived in north America up to 10,000 years ago and became extinct. How closely related it is to the eastern Camel (the ones we are familiar with) is in dispute. From what I have read it is more closely related to Alpacas, Llamas, and Guanacos.

Camels lived here, sure. Is the Camel as we know it today indigenous to North America ? I have not seen any proof of that.

There will most likely still be a Harley Davidson brand, but most likely not indigenous to North America.  It will be imported from China, Viet Nam, India or Pakistan. They are going to go for the world market using their boutique name and low cost small displacement units.  The V twin will not be dead, but subsidized with the World wide platform.  Their only option.  Depending on the U.S. market of clothing lines and large displacement units to keep them solvent obviously is not working. 

Who would of thought that camels would have caused such thread drift and animosity?  Winter better end soon so the shut ends can ride.  Or at least go to the garage and sit on your bike and make engine noises.  Me,  I have a date with my Daughter today.  We are going to the circus for the 18th year in a row.   Always fun and there will have motorcycle stunt riders.   

[jumpmaster]

Who would of thought that camels would have caused such thread drift and animosity?  Winter better end soon so the shut ends can ride.  Or at least go to the garage and sit on your bike and make engine noises. 

Personally, I think the snippy exchanges contained in this thread area a set-up; a plot hatched by the 3 or 4 worst offenders to demonstrate to the rest of us unwashed, or barely washed, readers what NOT to do/say on a discussion page that tries to be informative and friendly...

[LowRyter]

No, I don't think so.  I made a distinction as to the riders with the distinction word, "Many" as opposed to all.   However, you my good friend would certainly have to fall into the "Many" category!

I spat out my drink when I read that.


 

[Yukonica]

What is nor disputed is there was a species of western camel that lived in north America up to 10,000 years ago and became extinct. How closely related it is to the eastern Camel (the ones we are familiar with) is in dispute. From what I have read it is more closely related to Alpacas, Llamas, and Guanacos.

Camels lived here, sure. Is the Camel as we know it today indigenous to North America ? I have not seen any proof of that.

Excellent point Turin. The animal of today apparently has no direct genetic connection to those fossilized bones.
But we agree that camels considered indigenous to North America did exist? Yes. They went extinct.
The premise of the discussion was not succinct in defining genome.
Documentation was presented believing one side might never have been in contact with that type of information.
What to do with the information is not in my hands. To be unaware of facts is very different than to be unaware in spite of facts.
American Scimitar Cat, for example. Who has heard of it? Until last year, I hadn't. I thought all big cats with big teeth were sabre toothed... But I am now certain they did exist and they are not related to any remaining carnivore. Knowledge supported by facts.

[cookiemech]

With Harley ABS bikes you have to use a diagnostic tool to open the valves in the ABS unit in order to flush / change the fluid properly.  So, guys who think they are changing the fluid, aren't if they don't use the diagnostic tool.

And you can bet that I will spend the next year and a half (that will be when my RGU with ABS is two years old) figuring out how to buy or make some device that will cycle the ABS so I don't have to take it to a dealer to flush and bleed the system. I'd spend two thousand dollars rather than let someone else touch the bike! (My Road King doesn't have ABS.) One reason I dumped my Monster 1200 was that I couldn't even turn the damn "Oil Service" lamp off myself . . . unacceptable.

[Chuck in Indiana]

To be unaware of facts is very different than to be unaware in spite of facts.

 

[Kev m]

And you can bet that I will spend the next year and a half (that will be when my RGU with ABS is two years old) figuring out how to buy or make some device that will cycle the ABS so I don't have to take it to a dealer to flush and bleed the system. I'd spend two thousand dollars rather than let someone else touch the bike! (My Road King doesn't have ABS.) One reason I dumped my Monster 1200 was that I couldn't even turn the damn "Oil Service" lamp off myself . . . unacceptable.

I haven't bothered buying anything yet since my new RK is still less than a year old.

But I've heard there are solutions that are about $300.

A quick Google search pointed me towards Twin Tech, here's an example that's almost $400:

[fossil]

Do I understand this right? Some are complaining about the fact that normal hygroscopic brake fluid has to be exchanged each two years? Do responsible people exist who don´t do this at their cars, bikes or aeroplanes yearly?

The discussion about the North American camels was funny. Obviously some do not understand the concept of a scientific theory - and the concept of Deep Time. I recommend the books of the late Stephen Jay Gould regarding this theme.

Back to the original topic: What if Harley tries a new concept: bikes that need not to be modified and customized? I think some of them already exist in the new setup, but what about a sporty Sportster (big tank, nice seat, two-in one exhaust, good leaning angle, and - shock! - lighter, stategically placed pegs, a breaking foot lever that can be reached without turning the foot inside)? Or a touring - Sportster, that is not  lowered in such a silly way and has a good suspension travel? All this for an attactive price? Would that attract new buyers?

[rodekyll]

Do I understand this right? Some are complaining about the fact that normal hygroscopic brake fluid has to be exchanged each two years? Do responsible people exist who don´t do this at their cars, bikes or aeroplanes yearly?

The discussion about the North American camels was funny. Obviously some do not understand the concept of a scientific theory - and the concept of Deep Time. I recommend the books of the late Stephen Jay Gould regarding this theme.

Back to the original topic: What if Harley tries a new concept: bikes that need not to be modified and customized? I think some of them already exist in the new setup, but what about a sporty Sportster (big tank, nice seat, two-in one exhaust, good leaning angle, and - shock! - lighter, stategically placed pegs, a breaking foot lever that can be reached without turning the foot inside)? Or a touring - Sportster, that is not  lowered in such a silly way and has a good suspension travel? All this for an attactive price? Would that attract new buyers?

I think what they're objecting to is that instead of using a syringe, a wrench, and some brake fluid to change the fluid it now requires using a syringe, a wrench, some brake fluid, and a computer.

The problem with the non-customizing approach to the Sportster is that it still burns petroleum.  There's no future in it.

[cookiemech]

I haven't bothered buying anything yet since my new RK is still less than a year old.

But I've heard there are solutions that are about $300.

A quick Google search pointed me towards Twin Tech, here's an example that's almost $400:

Thanks, Kev! Right there, you saved me $1600 

I bought the RGU because I loved the new RK so much, and was fully aware of the ABS situation ("dealer-only service"). But since I never let anyone touch any of the machinery here (look, I even mount and balance my car tires), I suspected that there was a legitimate workaround.

Didn't know someone had already developed it. That's what I get for reading the Harley forums and not considering that I'd get a better answer from Wildguzzi!

Oh, wait. I just looked at this tool and it says it's not compatible with 2011-up models using CAN data bus. I think that's me . . . 

Another edit . . . You DID point me to the right place, Kev . . . I just didn't dig in far enough. There's a new version of the tool for the newer bikes that looks as though it will work:

http://www.daytona-twintec.com/Twin_Scan3.html

[Rough Edge racing]

Do I understand this right? Some are complaining about the fact that normal hygroscopic brake fluid has to be exchanged each two years? Do responsible people exist who don�t do this at their cars, bikes or aeroplanes yearly?

 I got money saying the brake fluid in the vast majority of cars/trucks never gets changed until a hydraulic brake part gets replaced..Bikes probably more often but I bet half go for years...

[cookiemech]

I got money saying the brake fluid in the vast majority of cars/trucks never gets changed until a hydraulic brake part gets replaced..Bikes probably more often but I bet half go for years...

My money's right beside yours. I've flushed brake fluid on friends' cars that looks like weak coffee.

No wonder motorcycle owners just assume it never needs changing.

I have a Vacula (vacuum bleeder) that makes it really easy, and it's an annual ritual I do on all my bikes. The cars, every two or three years or whenever I replace pads/rotors.

[Lannis]

Do I understand this right? Some are complaining about the fact that normal hygroscopic brake fluid has to be exchanged each two years? Do responsible people exist who don´t do this at their cars, bikes or aeroplanes yearly?

I've never changed the brake fluid in any car or motorcycle I've ever owned.   In cars and trucks, I've never changed the manual transmission oil, nor the differential oil.

I guess this makes me irresponsible, but then I've never had a brake failure either, so maybe your "annual" standard is a little tight ... ?

Lannis

[Sheepdog]

I’ve always heard that brake fluid should be changed every four years, but it’s probably a dated standard. ABS and modern proportioning valves make more frequent maintenance a cost of ownership. It’s a paradigm shift. Remember being outraged at the cost of your first timing belt or CV joint replacement? It’s a “new normal” thing...

I’m restoring a 1971 Triumph...brake fluid never needs changing on that rascal.

[Rough Edge racing]

 Back to HD...The price on used late model Sportsters has dropped really low... So low that the Rough Edges Racing crew chief, me, is going to work up a land speed racing modified production Sporty in 1000 cc class...

[Kev m]

Back to HD...The price on used late model Sportsters has dropped really low... So low that the Rough Edges Racing crew chief, me, is going to work up a land speed racing modified production Sporty in 1000 cc class...

Sweet!

[pyoungbl]

As I recall, about 20 years ago Sidney Conn got into a friendly rivalry with the Sportster guys.  They were running the same LSR class (1320 pushrod?).  Mr Conn was running a Guzzi and took the class record...OK, it was low hanging fruit at the time.  That energized the Sportster guys, who came back the next year and regained the record.  This was traded back and forth for a few years and was great fun.  Best of luck with the new Sportster venture.

Peter Y.

[Kev m]

I know there are a couple of guys on the XLforum over the years who have regularly pursued LSR Sportsters.

I believe Dan of NHRS is one of them:

http://www.nrhsperformance.com/racing.shtml

Aaron of Hammer Performance

http://www.hammerperf.com/racing.shtml

And I'm pretty sure I've seen some threads there from other privateers.

[Turin]

Yukonica wrote:

American Scimitar Cat, for example. Who has heard of it? Until last year, I hadn't. I thought all big cats with big teeth were sabre toothed... But I am now certain they did exist and they are not related to any remaining carnivore.

Homotherium !  Discovery channel covered that back when they had programing that was educational! There were many variations of prehistoric big cats. That doesn't make tigers indigenous to North America.

[Rough Edge racing]

I know there are a couple of guys on the XLforum over the years who have regularly pursued LSR Sportsters.

I believe Dan of NHRS is one of them:

http://www.nrhsperformance.com/racing.shtml

Aaron of Hammer Performance

http://www.hammerperf.com/racing.shtml


And I'm pretty sure I've seen some threads there from other privateers.

 Yes,currently I'm in a discussion on the XL Forum with those guys .......Discussing long or short stroke...whether to use an 883 or Buell XB9 crankshaft.

[Murray]

Back to the OT 7 pages and non one has mentioned Guzzi is currently it lock step following HD's marketing strategy probably 25 years after the fact I do not see this ending well.

[Kev m]

Back to the OT 7 pages and non one has mentioned Guzzi is currently it lock step following HD's marketing strategy probably 25 years after the fact I do not see this ending well.

I'm not sure I fully agree with that. Does Guzzi not have smaller, lighter, and less expensive bikes that appeal to younger riders? And they have announced a new smaller adventure bike.

They seem to be in a different place than Harley right now, at least to me.

[Yukonica]

Yukonica wrote:

Homotherium !  Discovery channel covered that back when they had programing that was educational! There were many variations of prehistoric big cats. That doesn't make tigers indigenous to North America.

Not sure what your point is?

[MotoG5]

I'm not sure I fully agree with that. Does Guzzi not have smaller, lighter, and less expensive bikes that appeal to younger riders? And they have announced a new smaller adventure bike.

They seem to be in a different place than Harley right now, at least to me.

I would agree with you Kev. The smaller bikes seem to be catching on. Not only with younger riders but with older long time Guzzi fans like myself that are looking to downsize. The V9 and new V85 are on my short list when I make the move from my present Stelvio. I would like to keep my long term affair with the brand.

[Murray]

I'm not sure I fully agree with that. Does Guzzi not have smaller, lighter, and less expensive bikes that appeal to younger riders?

They have some smaller lighter less expensive motorcycles, a bad carpenter can count on one hand the number of "young" riders I have actually seen on one.