Mechanical Paradox. Who Else is Afflicted?

[SmithSwede]

So I spent this afternoon replacing a cabin blower motor in a 2001 Subaru Outback owned by my wife.   Tightened fan belt.  Cleaned battery terminals.   Added some engine oil and coolant.  A bit of air to two of the tires.

Once again I was confronted by a seeming mechanical paradox.  I basically *loathe* anything to do with maintenance or DIY mechanical jobs on a car.    But on a motorcycle, I find the analogous job (or something far worst) to be an interesting project and a rewarding pleasure once finished. 

I have had this (probably irrational) attitude since I was a teenager.   There is just something about a car that irritates the heck out of me.  They are too big.  Too heavy.  Might fall on you and kill you.  Too complicated.  Too much fitting and trim work and fru-fru stuff.  Every car job seems to involve a deeply irritating lack of work space or clearance.  I had a devil of a time replacing the blower motor due to interference by a huge wiring cable that was stupidly routed on the back side of this motor.

When working on a car, I feel irritated because the P.O.S. is not working like it should.   I have no sympathy for it.  Whereas on a bike, I feel like I am helping out a loyal friend who has come down with a medical problem not his fault.   I am basically Hawkeye Pierce and filled with sympathy trying to heal my buddy.

Anyone else have the same mental hang-up about car wrenching versus bike wrenching?

Or am I just as crazy as Dusty says? 

[rodekyll]

So I spent this afternoon replacing a cabin blower motor in a 2001 Subaru Outback owned by my wife.   Tightened fan belt.  Cleaned battery terminals.   Added some engine oil and coolant.  A bit of air to two of the tires.

Once again I was confronted by a seeming mechanical paradox.  I basically *loathe* anything to do with maintenance or DIY mechanical jobs on a car.    But on a motorcycle, I find the analogous job (or something far worst) to be an interesting project and a rewarding pleasure once finished. 

I have had this (probably irrational) attitude since I was a teenager.   There is just something about a car that irritates the heck out of me.  They are too big.  Too heavy.  Might fall on you and kill you.  Too complicated.  Too much fitting and trim work and fru-fru stuff.  Every car job seems to involve a deeply irritating lack of work space or clearance.  I had a devil of a time replacing the blower motor due to interference by a huge wiring cable that was stupidly routed on the back side of this motor.

When working on a car, I feel irritated because the P.O.S. is not working like it should.   I have no sympathy for it.  Whereas on a bike, I feel like I am helping out a loyal friend who has come down with a medical problem not his fault.   I am basically Hawkeye Pierce and filled with sympathy trying to heal my buddy.

Anyone else have the same mental hang-up about car wrenching versus bike wrenching?

Or am I just as crazy as Dusty says? 

Must be a time zone thing.  You're saying it on Sunday, but that's a typical Tuesday to me.   

[Gliderjohn]

For me it is that the general frustration has increased over the years. On cars and on many motorcycles the amount of plastic snd very tight spaces makes what use to be fairly simple procedures now complicated with many traps and pitfalls. I kind of enjoyed working on cars when I owned a 69 Falcon and a 65 El Camino.
In 1985 I bought a Dodge Colt Turbo. It took about the same amount of time to change the air filter on it as it took me to R&R the head on the Falcon.
GliderJohn

[guzzisteve]

It's all because you sit IN the car and ON the bike wrapping around it. 

[oldbike54]

 Oh your crazy alright Prescott , but in a good way 

 I feel the same way , working on a car requires too many contortions .

  Dusty

[RinkRat II]

 Well Swede, interesting topic that I'm on the flip side of that coin. I get a great deal of enjoyment working on all forms of mechanical apparatii. After High School I thought of becoming a mechanic and went to an Automotive technical school and graduated with perfect attendance and straight A's, however during this process I discovered I loved it too much to have to do it everyday so I went into a related  field, as a career. Working on my own cars, bikes, boats, race cars over the years has proven for me a lot better than a Psychiatrist, probably not cheaper though! My one rule over the years  has always been not to work on other peoples vehicles, I'll diagnose and recommend a repair  but they need to seek out a repair shop.   Dusty may be right

       Paul B

[Dharma Bum]

I'm with you 100%.  The last car that I really enjoyed working on was an air cooled VW.

[Chuck in Indiana]

I used to build street and hot rods and enjoyed it. The thing is.. I don't care about a car if it's not a "toy" and really don't enjoy working on one. The last car I worked on was our supercharged MINI.. and it was no fun at all. Just work, and it was gone as soon as I *had* to work on it. Motorcycles, airplanes? Yeah. As long as they are mine. I'm not interested in working on other people's stuff at all. That's work again. <shrug> 

[Darren Williams]

My perspective is not car or motorcycle specific as much as it is toy verses tool.

My cars or bikes that are used for commuting and travel I want to do minimal maintenance and just want to get in or on and drive or ride. I hate working on them because of the pressure to get them fixed in short order. Fortunately I'm at a point in life where they usually go to a trusted shop. It's not that I can't do it myself, I just choose not to.

The toys, such as the Thruxton, track bike or dirt bike, I can work on them at my leisure (meaning when I'm in the mood) and find it enjoyable.

[Wayne Orwig]

I totally agree. And I have no clue why.
I often work on motorcycles, and enjoy it. But could care less to do the same on a car.
Just the other day I had to replace a fan belt. What a pain in the rear. But I did a more complex monoshock replacement on a bike, and enjoyed it.

[John A]

# me too! I don't work on cars unless I have to. It's just work. Motorbikes I can enjoy for hours, even when it gets to the point of being work. I think most of us Guzzi types are that way although I've known some that didn't like it.

[redhawk47]

I quit working on cars and trucks for several reasons: the grease and dirt were ugly dirty. I didn't have the tools for some of the projects. Disposing of the large quantities of oil was a PITA.

But I got rid of a KTM 950 Adventure because of how much you had to take it apart for an oil change. Easy service is one of the reasons I changed to Moto Guzzi.

[Kev m]

I can still enjoy either, but I can equally dread either. The main issue is a family with young kids and I hate taking time away from them. So I'd rather use that time for riding than wrenching.

That said there are plenty of autos that remain easy to wrench on. I had no complaints about our supercharged Mini Cooper, other than it's tendency to EAT brakes. At least they were logical and easy to service.

I just did brakes all around on our 2012 WK2 and that was another simple and easy mom job.

Granted they're not all that easy... That same Jeep will need the intake removed to do the spark plugs on the left side. Of course it's only at 65k miles now and that won't come up till probably the 10th year of ownership at this rate so I'm not bitching.

[Lannis]

# me too! I don't work on cars unless I have to. It's just work.

Same for me.   Changing a belt on a car is just like changing the belt on a Maytag clothes dryer, or replacing a bad relay on a heat pump.    Just a dirty chore that takes time away from fun things, nothing fun or satisfying about it.

Bikes are different.   

Lannis

[canuck750]

Same for me, can't get motivated to work on a car but can spend a lot of time playing with bikes.

[luthier]

I'm pretty much opposite to the way most of you think here. [surprise surprise.]
But then I have Peugeots which you guys chuckle about.  My whole family drive Peugeots and I maintain most of them.
While I can find some jobs very tiresome I enjoy being able to send my kids off with a new timing belt or new brakes or a fresh service with all the filters and fluids done.
I also get great satisfaction from doing the entire timing belt job including seals and water pump for round $350 in parts which would cost  over a grand at the shop. And the fact that I then get to do 160,000 K's of practical use, rather than it just being a toy is to me another point of satisfaction.
I just bought a 406 diesel  sedan for $400, did brakes, timing belt, tie rods, some small body work, and replaced various missing small parts, had the head lining done by a motor trimmer and today I'm getting the aircon regassed. So far with rego it owes me less than two grand, gets 1400K's per litre, beats everyone up hills and only has 267K on the clock which is quite low for one of these. My other one has 400K and still goes like new.
Sad you guys can't get these little beauties over there, but with the general attitude that y'all have to Frog cars I don't blame Peugeot for not wanting to sell there.
And yeah I really HATE working on Yankee cars.
Not looking forward to pulling the gearbox outa my Guzzi either. That's a total pain in the butt.
Once my bikes are sorted I would much rather ride them than muck about with them. Yes I like to polish them and look at them but I like them to just keep going without having to do a lot to keep them going. That's why I got a Guzzi in the first place and why I'm thoroughly enjoying my Ducati ST3. Aha you say, he's full of $hit because he'll have all this maintenance on the Duke.
Time will tell but if it's only oil changes at 5K and timing belts at 20K and it goes like that for 100K I'll be pretty happy. That'll probably see me out anyhow. Meanwhile the old Ambassador Pig seems to need a tweak every second time I ride the damn thing and if the new brake shoes don't work it's out the door.
There yers go, just another reason for the old ignore button right?

[Rick4003]

Funny enough, I also have the tool vs toy thing on the stuff I work on, I can spend lots of time on things I consider as toys and enjoy it all the way, but I don't enjoy it very much working on cars that are daily drivers or 'tools'. I had a Peugeot 406 as my daily driver/winter car and I did not enjoy working on that one at all.
It has to be said that as I am living outside of DK then the jobs on the 406 had to be done during my holidays in Denmark, to spend a week of your holiday fixing your old junker up for MOT is not the best way to spend the holidays in my opinion. So that is also some of the reason I didn't like working on it. When I had my other old junkers during school I enjoyed spending a weekend and a minimal amount of welding  wire, gas and some small scraps of plate to fix the exhaust instead of spending 200+$ to buy a new one. Kept my costs down.

I like working on my old Alfa, my old mini and even occasionally on my buddy's Alfa Montreal, but I don't care for fixing other peoples old cars. Unless it is some kind of classic. Bikes I love working on the Guzzis and not so much my Yamaha, of the same tool/toy reason. The Yamaha always works and is pretty stripped for any kind of character, so that isn't so fun to work on as the other bikes are.

-Ulrik

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

[Zoom Zoom]

<snip>That same Jeep will need the intake removed to do the spark plugs on the left side. <snip>

You know, I have wondered about that scenario on occasion. By the time the spark plugs are ready to be replaced, how many will have welded themselves into the aluminum head by electrolysis? Then the threads will strip out, or the plug breaks in two, and the trouble will have just begun.

John Henry

[Kev m]

You know, I have wondered about that scenario on occasion. By the time the spark plugs are ready to be replaced, how many will have welded themselves into the aluminum head by electrolysis? Then the threads will strip out, or the plug breaks in two, and the trouble will have just begun.

John Henry

That was the case about two decades ago when long-life spark plugs first came into being.

You generally don't hear about such things happening anymore.

There's a reason most spark plugs are plated now.

But the tin foil crowd will continue to change their oil at 3k miles, swap spark plugs at 30k, and their half-plastic fuel filters at 1-2 years....

< shakes his head and chuckles to himself while shuffling away >

[Zoom Zoom]

Well, I really was not considering changing the plugs prematurely. I was more thinking pulling them and putting a little Anti-Sieze on the threads then reinstalling them. I see no reason to replace them too early. Fuel management has helped lengthen the lifespan of the plugs along with plug technology itself.

Now about those fuel filters. I know you're well aware that I replaced mine in the Norge before it became an issue. Mine was so pliable that failure was inevitable. There was no doubt in my mind that it was going to fail. The only question was do I deal with it on my own terms or not. (In case you had forgotten, 2 years old and 11K miles on the clock when I did it.) There are so many factors that will vary the TTL on that part that it would difficult at best to predict when a failure might occur. I would prefer not when I'm on the road.

Really, you're beating this horse over a 10 dollar part that is easy to change? Yes it may be a small percentage of reported occurrences, but how many were prevented by being pro active, or those that nobody heard about? Again, I agree it may be a small percentage. Personally, I would rather not be in that percentage when we're talking about something so cheap and easy.

Cheers,
John Henry

edit: How's that for thread drift.   

[vstevens]

Some cars and bikes I've enjoyed maintaining.  But since getting the electric Fiat 500e, I kind of don't see the point of noisy, hot, dirty, oily, stinky and complex internal combustion engines.  For me, working on a bike or car is like doing plumbing... you do it cause you have to but feel accomplished when you finish.  Doing it yourself just feels good - especially when you save money 💰

[Sasquatch Jim]

 I can sit in my wheelchair alongside my bike and comfortably work on it.
 If I have to work on my van, I have to jack it up and crawl under it, or go headfirst down
 inside it removing things from in the way to get to the problem.
 I'll pay someone else to do my van.

[Kev m]

Well, I really was not considering changing the plugs prematurely. I was more thinking pulling them and putting a little Anti-Sieze on the threads then reinstalling them. I see no reason to replace them too early. Fuel management has helped lengthen the lifespan of the plugs along with plug technology itself.

http://www.jagrepair.com/images/AutoRepairPhotos/NGK_TB-0630111antisieze.pdf

Tech Bulletin -
Anti-Seize Compounds on Spark Plug Threads
Topic
The use of anti-seize compounds on spark plug threads that have a metal shell
plating (i.e. Zinc or Nickel plating).
Issue
Applying anti-seize to the threads of spark plugs that have a metal plating allows the installer to
mistakenly over-tighten the spark plug in the cylinder head; This stretches and fatigues the threads of
the spark plugs, causing a much higher probability that the plug will break during installation or in some
cases upon removal.

Solution
For spark plugs with special metal plating simply do not use anti-seize on initial
Installation; All NGK Spark Plugs are manufactured with a special trivalent Zinc-chromate shell plating
that is designed to prevent both corrosion and seizure to the cylinder head; Thus eliminating the need
for any thread compounds or lubricants.

Additional Information
NGK recommends only using spark plugs with metal plating on all aluminum head applications to
prevent damage to the head and plug. Metal shell plating acts as a “lubricant” which breaks away from
the main body of the spark plug during removal, preventing damage to the spark plug and or threads in
the cylinder head.

You see. You're not a dumb guy. Nor are most (all?) of the people here. But we get caught making assumptions. Often times on the logical fallacy Argumentum Ad Antiquitatem. We've always done that, it was right, it must still be right.

But things change, from oil to engine break-in to spark plugs and if we don't actively try to keep up we get left behind. And as you can see that logic CAN cause problems too, possibly causing people to break off spark plugs when they would have been fine if they'd left them alone.

Now about those fuel filters. I know you're well aware that I replaced mine in the Norge before it became an issue. Mine was so pliable that failure was inevitable. There was no doubt in my mind that it was going to fail.

I obviously chose that example on purpose because I knew it would strike a nerve leading to further conversation.

So how do you know it was "inevitable" and there was "no doubt" because as I already demonstrated the mind is easily fooled?

That's why scientists come up with theories and then test and repeat.

I bought into it at first, it seemed logical.

But then I tested and hmmm, though it SEEMED "soft and pliable" yet it held up to 120 psi?

Hmmmm, maybe what SEEMS isn't always true.

I sure wish I could have gotten some other people to test it too.

Really, you're beating this horse over a 10 dollar part that is easy to change? Yes it may be a small percentage of reported occurrences, but how many were prevented by being pro active, or those that nobody heard about? Again, I agree it may be a small percentage. Personally, I would rather not be in that percentage when we're talking about something so cheap and easy.

My beating the horse on this is about the principle of spreading myths. I don't KNOW if this is a myth or not yet. I'd really like to know why a FEW fail and seemingly many others go 10+ years without a peep.

I suspect the vast majority go unchanged without failure. You seem to agree. So rather than stoke paranoia I'd like to see more investigation. That's just a personal peeve of mine. But it speaks well to the rest of the paranoia and myths that are constantly spread on forums regarding motor vehicles of all types.

Why does it matter for $10? Because it's not $10. Too many owners or would be owners it's hundreds of dollars to pay someone else to do it. It becomes one more item on a bullet list why people should NOT buy a new or used Guzzi. The lists that they get inundated with when they come to a place like this asking for the first time about a Guzzi only to turn and walk away saying "yeah, I knew I shouldn't think about those unreliable exotic Italian bikes" and are then never heard from again as they go back to their SuzuKawaYamaHonduh.

[blackcat]

My local car repair guy (Pap) who worked on my 70 el Camino for many years, who I trusted and really liked got cancer and passed away a few years ago. I even went to his funeral, met his wife and kids.   His shop was literally right next to my house so there were times that he walked over and either fixed the car or we pushed it into his shop.

When it finally came to replacing the motor in the el Camino, I just ended up doing it myself and it wasn't a pleasant experience as everything was so big and dangerously heavy. Even though I replaced the torque converter with a new one, it went about 6 months ago and I decided there was no way I was going to wrestle that transmission or pull the engine again to replace that thing and asked around for a shop to install a new one. Yes, it cost me way more than if I had to do it myself but it was worth not having ending up dead with a transmission resting on my forehead.

[Lannis]

When it finally came to replacing the motor in the el Camino, I just ended up doing it myself and it wasn't a pleasant experience as everything was so big and dangerously heavy. Even though I replaced the torque converter with a new one, it went about 6 months ago and I decided there was no way I was going to wrestle that transmission or pull the engine again to replace that thing and asked around for a shop to install a new one. Yes, it cost me way more than if I had to do it myself but it worth not having to end up dead with a transmission resting on my forehead.

I feel the same way.   But the "working on cars" thing works OK for people that are set up for it.

The "F#stiva Forum" guys, most of whom could be my grandsons, will whip motors in and out of cars in a morning.   Take out the 1.3L engine, stick in a 1.6L engine, and off they go.   When I were a lad, the local "muscle car" crowd (all "Brand Fanatical") would pull motors and transmissions from their Ford GTs and Chevy SSs and Mopar SixPacks willy-nilly, it wasn't anything at all to them.

Of course, the ultimate examples are the track and drag racers - takes them about 10 minutes for a crew to change out an engine.

So it's sort of like "How ready ($$) are you to indulge your sport?"   Looks like many of us just don't have the motivation to go there!

Lannis

[blackcat]

I feel the same way.   But the "working on cars" thing works OK for people that are set up for it.

The "F#stiva Forum" guys, most of whom could be my grandsons, will whip motors in and out of cars in a morning.   Take out the 1.3L engine, stick in a 1.6L engine, and off they go.   When I were a lad, the local "muscle car" crowd (all "Brand Fanatical") would pull motors and transmissions from their Ford GTs and Chevy SSs and Mopar SixPacks willy-nilly, it wasn't anything at all to them.

Of course, the ultimate examples are the track and drag racers - takes them about 10 minutes for a crew to change out an engine.

So it's sort of like "How ready ($$) are you to indulge your sport?"   Looks like many of us just don't have the motivation to go there!

Lannis

If I had an engine lift in my garage I certainly would have pulled the transmission and replaced the torque converter. Basically a days work for a novice like myself, but spending a lot of money on a lift is not an option as I'm not that interested in doing this work.  And the sad fact is, that I probably should just sell the vehicle as I really don't use it that much.
 
Plus, it would take away from my motorcycle space.

[Kev m]

If I had an engine lift in my garage I certainly would have pulled the transmission and replaced the torque converter. Basically a days work for a novice like myself, but spending a lot of money on a lift is not an option as I'm not that interested in doing this work.  And the sad fact is, that I probably should just sell the vehicle as I really don't use it that much.
 
Plus, it would take away from my motorcycle space.

I hear ya.

I guess Jay and I were both into cars long before we were into bikes (even though he helped get me my first bike a decade or two before he became obsessed).

So when my SIL blew the motor in her Jeep on the way back to Camp LeJune, we picked it up and threw a mill in it for her.



See rare pic of Jay SMILING below:




When the transmission blew up on another weekend leave, my wife (then in med school) and myself dropped the transmission in the driveway using a BIKE JACK! (like the craftsman one, an even older and uglier unit I had bought in the 90's to get my Harleys off the ground for wheel/tire R&R). Turns out a bike jack like that is the perfect answer to raise and lower a transmission. It even pulls the transmission backwards before starting to arc it downward!

Still I'm probably getting a little old to lay in a driveway and pull a transmission. Which means if it happened again I'd either pay someone to do it, or haul the damn thing all the way to Jay's to put it on his twin post lift (and drink his beer, while getting him to help with the hard stuff anyway).

YMMV

 

[Muzz]

I am retired and therefore have nothing to do  , so amongst other things I give my son a hand in his power steering and wheel alignment shop when a car which needs suspension work done on it comes in. Also remove the odd pump and rack. Some are a delight to work on, Hyundai being one of the better ones. Some are a complete fundamental orifice. Last Thursday I did a RWD Ozzie Ford Falcon (foul can). To get to be able to be able to get the bolts out of the two arms I had to drop the entire rear subframe! Every nut and bolt had a different sized nut to the bolt head. What the H*** is it with that! Also, instead of standardised sizes they used every metric size known to man. I had sockets out of three different socket sets simply to cover the obscure sizes they were using.
I hated the experience.

Reading Luthier's comments, we have owned three Peugeots. When I did the donk on the 404 I used three spanners to strip the entire motor.

The Breva uses standard bolt and nut sizes and most of the bearings are boggy old 6000 series that any bearing shop sells. With valve adjusters that look at you square on out of that Heron head, I find I MUCH prefer working on the bike.

[Turin]

For me it depends on the car. I love playing with my Alfa or the wifes 1977 fiat spider. I loved working on any of the other cars I've owned ( all pre 1970 ). My wifes last car was a Saturn sc coupe. Didn't even like changing the oil. I don't think I'd want to have to do anything with her current fiat 500 pop. I like the car and picked it out, but popping the hood makes my mind go blank.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

The '91 Jetta diesel I bought back in August was easy to work on - at least those things I needed to do (brakes, rear shocks). I actually found it enjoyable. My '93 Eurovan is no fun however - every job is a PITA and I put off doing them for as long as possible. Not good.

My "new" '89 Mercedes 190E 2.6 has been pleasant to do maintenance catch-up on. Sparkplugs are all down the right side of the engine, out in the open. Distributor cap and rotor, plug wires - all easy. Oil filter screws on from the top - no crawling underneath. Air filter is right on top too in a big metal housing.  I will have to run it up on ramps for the fuel filter change though. I don't have a shop manual (yet) but there are some very helpful technical articles on the Pelican Parts website.
https://www.pelicanparts.com/techarticles/MBZ_Tech_Index-190E.htm