Oil Leak between Head and Jug?

[Bulldog9]

When I took the headers off to change out the colostomy bag, I noticed that the seam where the head and cyl jug met, but didn't think much about it.  Today when I got back on my afternoon commute I smelled 'that smell' of oil that had lost its way.  Here is a pic of the offending area. Now for some history, this is the side that came from the factory with the cam chain off by 1 sprocket. I say from the factory, because I go the bike in 2016, and it was a 2014 leftover bought in late 2015, and only had 600 miles on it when I bought it.

It took a bit to figure out why it wouldn't rev past 6K, but in the end it was the cam timing being off by 1 tooth. Correcting the issue did NOT require removal of the head, but I'm thinking something happened at the factory with Luigi that required the removal of the head, and when it was put back together, the same ham fisted maroon goofed up the head gasket. Or something else?

[fotoguzzi]

Do you mean either the crank or cam gear was one tooth off? The chain itself can’t be off .. That’s odd.. but yeah unlikely that’s why the oil leak,what bike is it? Could the drip be from a rocker cover and just dripping to there? Or the oil breather? It could be the head gasket I guess..
Did you get the fix under warranty?

[Bulldog9]

Do you mean either the crank or cam gear was one tooth off? The chain itself can�t be off .. That�s odd.. but yeah unlikely that�s why the oil leak,what bike is it? Could the drip be from a rocker cover and just dripping to there? Or the oil breather? It could be the head gasket I guess..
Did you get the fix under warranty?

Yeah, the intake cam gear was off one tooth on the chain...

My point is that I think the Head may have been taken off at some point for some reason before I got the bike. Because it only had 600 miles or so when I got it, its unlikely it happened after delivery as it was was under warranty.  When MI checked the bike out and set the cam gear, it was not done under warranty.

No way it is the breather, or dripping from the valve cove, it is right at the seam where head and cyl meet.

[RinkRat II]

    So how do you know it was Luigi and not Guido?

        Paul B

[fotoguzzi]

so it's an 8V big block, Norge? what does MI say about it?

[Bulldog9]

so it's an 8V big block, Norge? what does MI say about it?

Yes,  8V big block.  Just found the issue today, MI is 3500 miles West of me, i dont think they will be weighing in.

[pete roper]

Is it coming out through the cooling tunnel at the front of the head? If so is there also oil coming out the back? A likely culprit would be one of the o-rings that seals the plug tube which on a 2014 would be one of the short ones that goes betwixt head and cambox/rocker carrier casting. If its one of them it will require the cambox to come off for replacement.

Other sources might be the grub screws that block the cooling gallery drillings or possibly a porosity issue. In all honesty, while possible, it is unlikely to be the head gasket.

Pete

[fotoguzzi]

  MI is 3500 miles West of me, i dont think they will be weighing in.

so, Perry, ME 04667  or Key West?

[pete roper]

Oh, another possibility would be a perished breather hose up at the connection to the condenser box and the oil is blowing back onto the head.

Pete

[Bulldog9]

so, Perry, ME 04667  or Key West?

Lol key West I wish....  I'm in Alexandria VA...  The fastest route is only 2700 miles, but when I moved in December I routed through LA to avoid the mountain passes and plains  so it was more like 3800. I lived in Seattle area from 2015 to Dec 2017. 

[Bulldog9]

Is it coming out through the cooling tunnel at the front of the head? If so is there also oil coming out the back? A likely culprit would be one of the o-rings that seals the plug tube which on a 2014 would be one of the short ones that goes betwixt head and cambox/rocker carrier casting. If its one of them it will require the cambox to come off for replacement.

Other sources might be the grub screws that block the cooling gallery drillings or possibly a porosity issue. In all honesty, while possible, it is unlikely to be the head gasket.

Pete

Thanks Pete.

By grub screws do you mean the small Allen screws set in the head on either side of the exhaust outlet?

The best I can tell is that it is just the front of the cyl, right at the seam between head and cyl. It is wettest right where those two inset Allen keys are. Ugh.... I just got done putting it all together. 

[Bulldog9]

    So how do you know it was Luigi and not Guido?

        Paul B

You know, your may be  on to something..... The Sarducci's have always hated my family....

[pete roper]

Thanks Pete.

By grub screws do you mean the small Allen screws set in the head on either side of the exhaust outlet?

The best I can tell is that it is just the front of the cyl, right at the seam between head and cyl. It is wettest right where those two inset Allen keys are. Ugh.... I just got done putting it all together.

Yup, them. The exhaust valve seat area on the 1200's is cooled by oil flow through drilled galleries in the heads. To get those galleries they had to cross-drill from a number of directions to get the *Tubes* for the coolant to flow through. You can't drill around corners on this scale, at least not easily and cheaply, so the drillings come in from a number of angles and the ones on the outside of the head are plugged with those small, Allen head, grub screws. Yes, they can leak, but it's rare.

If the bike is under warranty? Get the dealer to warranty the head. If it's out of warranty or it's just too much of a king sized pain in the arse you can try cleaning the area thoroughly with contact cleaner and then applying some Loctite 'Super Wick-in' when the engine is stone cold and then covering the offending screw/Plug with a two part epoxy like JB Weld, (In moderation! Don't lay it on like toothpaste!). It's only a weep, but it's ugly and needs addressing. Will that fix it? No gaurantee, but it probably will but I'd look at the other things I mentioned like hoses before slaughtering a chicken or sacrificing a virgin....

Pete

[Bulldog9]

Yup, them. The exhaust valve seat area on the 1200's is cooled by oil flow through drilled galleries in the heads. To get those galleries they had to cross-drill from a number of directions to get the *Tubes* for the coolant to flow through. You can't drill around corners on this scale, at least not easily and cheaply, so the drillings come in from a number of angles and the ones on the outside of the head are plugged with those small, Allen head, grub screws. Yes, they can leak, but it's rare.

If the bike is under warranty? Get the dealer to warranty the head. If it's out of warranty or it's just too much of a king sized pain in the arse you can try cleaning the area thoroughly with contact cleaner and then applying some Loctite 'Super Wick-in' when the engine is stone cold and then covering the offending screw/Plug with a two part epoxy like JB Weld, (In moderation! Don't lay it on like toothpaste!). It's only a weep, but it's ugly and needs addressing. Will that fix it? No gaurantee, but it probably will but I'd look at the other things I mentioned like hoses before slaughtering a chicken or sacrificing a virgin....

Pete

Thanks Pete don't want to disappoint anyone but there shall be no sacrificing of virgins... :-) I pulled the header off tonight thinking I would check to see if they were tight but it seems to be an odd size. Then the wife came home and I had to vacate the garage to help her unload groceries so... I gave it the first shot of cleaner we'll give it a second and blow it out with air let it dry thoroughly for a couple days then apply the wicking agent and cover over with some JB Weld. I have to keep reminding myself that I got the bike for a steal of a deal... You're right it's not in much of a leak but I'll do my best to take care of it. We do know this bike is a total b**** so maybe she's just upset that I let it sit for almost a year while I was in Afghanistan. You think all the TLC and improvements over the winter would have been enough but...

[Chuck in Indiana]

or sacrificing a virgin....

Sorry, Pete.. but he's in Virginia. <shrug>

[guzzisteve]

I get an ad for head gasket sealant right under your last post. THAT is weird.

If it's still cold & snowing there, I'd pull the tank & airbox to have a closer look-see if it's not the grub screw like Pete pointed out. You can look all around then.

[Devildog]

Yup, snow coming tomorrow....

[jlburgess]

+1 on the breather hose.  Mine was cracked on the back of the head and it looked just like a head gasket failure.  Just fixed it last weekend.

[Bulldog9]

Day off from work due to snow,  but the wife is home too, so not much time ;-)   Local FLAPS diddnt have the wicking thread locker orderd the high temp loctite 294 on Amazon.  I really dont want to take the tank off AGAIN...... I've looked at the breather//etc and pretty much ruled that out, it is only the front and 1/4 back on the sides of the head/cyl, and the grub screws themselves that were wet, so I am thinking that is the source.

I've got the header off and area cleaned (including a shot back in the eyes of cleaner.....grrrr) Will see what the locktite produces.  I did notice there is an oil feed line right in line with the fins. Checked it and was tight. Also checked the nuts for the head studs and then we're definitely not at 40 lbs. Got about a 1/4 turn before the click.  I also noticed that there is some RTV where the CYL jug and case meet that doesnt exist on the other side, so I'm thinning that somewhere before I got it, the right side of the motor was taken apart.......  But why in less than 600 miles this would happen is beyond me. But still, I got a 2014 Norge in early 2016 with 600 miles on it (I think) for $7K.... And with the Beetle map, colostomy bag removal, and other additions I really like the bike......

Actually, I'm just hoping Bill Hagan comes and fixes it for me ;-)

On another Note, I was driving around in the snow this morning in Arlington helping my brother in law out and stumbled on a Piaggio Dealer!!! Moto Guzzi/Aprilia/Vespa......... This is my 4th assignment in the DC area, and I am just finding this now?  Granted I diddnt own a Guzzi when I was last in this area, but still. I thought I knew EVERY motorcycle shop. They were closed (weenies) but will definitely swing by.  Anyone in NOVA know anything about their service dept?  I am LOATH to let some other ham fisted monkey touch my stuff, but still good to know if I need.   

[Bulldog9]

OK, after cleaning the area with carb cleaner and letting dry, I tried to check if the grub screws were loose in an attempt to pull them out, reseal and install. The size however is odd, what I have in my trusty kit is too small or too big.... So I applied loctite 294 last night.  I am hesitant to apply JBWeld, as it could be problematic to get it out if I have to end up taking it to a dealer to get the screws extracted & resealed.  Unless I am VERY careful and dont get it in the allen key hole.... BUT I am a hamfisted oaf.... Hmmmm.... Maybe a couple beers first....Yeah that will make me deft and stable ;-)   AH, you have to love a bike that makes you get intimate with it.

[JeffOlson]

I had a breather hose leak on my 2014 Norge. Oil everywhere.

Easily fixed: MI snipped off the heat-ruined end of the hose and plugged the fresh end back on as a stop-gap measure. Then, we waited a couple of months for a new hose to arrive on the next boat from Italy.

[Bulldog9]

+1 on the breather hose.  Mine was cracked on the back of the head and it looked just like a head gasket failure.  Just fixed it last weekend.

Definately not the breather, this is in the front, and is wettest at those grub screws and the seam with head gasket. Breather area is bone dry.

[twhitaker]

Alexandria is close enough to the DC beltway that finding a virgin to sacrifice would be next to impossible.

[Diploman]

 !!!

[MLR]

I was curious if the loctite & JB weld did the trick. Mine has been seeping oil from the cursed grub screw since I bought it in 2014. I tried JB weld without success & figured I'd just fix it when I pull the head off to freshen the top end someday.

[dcardo021]

I have the same problem with the Griso, it is the galley plugs. Going to warranty the head, tried sealing, no good. New head, worried this could screw my Alaska trip

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[Bulldog9]

I went for an hour ride on Saturday and unfortunately discovered that one of the grub screws is still leaking. I'm going to see if I can remove it myself and then reseal it. Not sure what size it is as it seems that my Allen keys are either too large or too small.

If I have a problem getting it out I will maybe take it to a dealer I have them do it. But I didn't try JB Wells yet either so we will see.

I was curious if the loctite & JB weld did the trick. Mine has been seeping oil from the cursed grub screw since I bought it in 2014. I tried JB weld without success & figured I'd just fix it when I pull the head off to freshen the top end someday.

[Diploman]

You might want to try this stuff - I have found it very effective.

https://www.amazon.com/Permatex-59214-Temperature-Thread-Sealant/dp/B0002UEOP0/ref=sr_1_fkmr1_1?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1522798428&sr=1-1-fkmr1&keywords=permatex+thread+sealer+303

[MLR]

That looks like just the stuff for the job but I think the screw would need to come out for it to work so it could be applied to the threads. On the Norge at least, they are difficult to reach & mine at least seems very tight. It is a very minor leak in my case so I decided to live with it until/when I need to take the head off for some other reason. I would think whatever method they use to hold them in must be pretty permanent, seems like it would be pretty messy & catastrophic if it fell out.

[pete roper]

Oh it would be messy alright!

DO NOT attempt to remove the plugs, which from memory are 3mm, with a standard Allen key. You’ll need a key socket and a good, high quality one, that fits exactly and that you can apply some decent torque to. Although they don’t appear to be tapered threads or to be punched in they are usually as tight as buggery. If you use an ill fitting, weedy, tool you’ll just end up rounding out the hex or spreading the head of the plug and then you’ll be stuffed.

I’m not sure what to recommend as a sealant but the higher temperature the better. It gets bloody hot in the area around the plugs. A drop of super wick-in in the threaded hole before installing the plug with high temp sealant would probably be the go.

Pete