Author Topic: Well? Why not?  (Read 3313 times)

Online pete roper

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Re: Well? Why not?
« Reply #30 on: April 24, 2018, 05:22:58 PM »






Close enough as makes no odds then. Looks like itíll be getting the gearbox too unless I find other differences I donít know about.

Pete

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Re: Well? Why not?
« Reply #31 on: April 24, 2018, 05:25:56 PM »
That'll be a shortlist.


Offline Turin

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Re: Well? Why not?
« Reply #32 on: April 24, 2018, 07:47:06 PM »
Pete... You know that you really want to stuff that drivetrain in a V7 smallblock Chassis.










 :evil:


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Online Murray

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Re: Well? Why not?
« Reply #33 on: April 24, 2018, 07:53:24 PM »
Pete... You know that you really want to stuff that drivetrain in a V7 smallblock Chassis.

So bets on the frame twisting into a pile of spaghetti or the final drive exploding first?










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Offline Turin

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Re: Well? Why not?
« Reply #34 on: April 24, 2018, 08:01:49 PM »
Mmmm spaghetti...
2000 Quota 1100 es
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Offline jacksonracingcomau

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Re: Well? Why not?
« Reply #35 on: April 25, 2018, 02:16:55 AM »
Well bought Pete, I saw it coming & guessed badly it would fetch $. Mad that v7wrecks sell at silly prices and this thing no one wants. Will be more, esp in US. At that money is cheaper than a roller fix.
But why change heads ?
Surely twin spark an advantage, Even if they only do it for emissions, same advantage in efficiency if you map to suit.
Then compare with one youíve built already,

Online pete roper

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Re: Well? Why not?
« Reply #36 on: April 25, 2018, 04:16:40 AM »
Actually Martin, no. While the excuse I was given by the visiting Piaggio suit when the 1400 was launched was that the extra plug was to prevent �surging� caused by end gas issues I was always a bit skeptical as there are plenty of engines with wider bores and similar, very compact, modern combustion chambers that only rely on a single spark, don�t �Sirge� and meet modern emissions standards.

The other story that leaked out, and seems to be far more relevant, is that the reason the extra plug was added, along with the rubber mounting of the motor, was to allow them to engineer in a *Shake* at idle! If you look at a Cali 14 at idle the motor jumps about in its mounts like a heffalump with St. Vitus Dance! Why would it do that? It�s intrinsically one of the smoothest twin cylinder designs possible yet it shakes? What�s that about? It�s about appealing to the �Cruiser� buyer who use a Harley as a benchmark. They vibrate and idle and have rubber mounts that isolate the rider. So a shaker motor must be good! QED!

What a crock!

Unlike most �Twin Spark� designs usually used with less modern combustion chamber shapes the 7SM uses four coils and allows for a staggered spark at lower RPM. At higher engine speeds the second spark is cut. If it was necessary for either emissions or preventing end gas issues and �Surging� it would be more relevant at higher RPM where burn times are proportionally far shorter than at lower engine speeds.

The 1400 uses substantially different cooling systems in the heads as well which is another reason why I�m happy to go with the single spark heads. They do need modification but cosmetically they work better, we don�t need to deal with the redundant plug or alternatively start all over again designing a new spark map, just tweak the 1200 ones, (That�s Mark�s area though. I just grunt and press buttons! :laugh:).

We stick with the W5AM controller simply because it�s easy and it works well. If we were to use the 7SM we would also need to use the entire rest of the RBW system and everything in the system that communicates by canbus. Then there is the reduction of cross sectional breathing area and the fact that the Cali 14 is speed limited, another thing that would need defeating. Why make it harder than it needs to be?

Pete

Offline jacksonracingcomau

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Re: Well? Why not?
« Reply #37 on: April 25, 2018, 05:46:24 AM »
4 coil fire sounds good, innovitive people, like old days, forza guzzi
Nearly did same a few years ago, I get it,control 4 sparks, shame if hard to break into, concept is brilliant.
Dial out vibes, but burn every ounce.
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Everything is told by fuel consumption, try it, this mapped right will eat mk1

Online pete roper

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Re: Well? Why not?
« Reply #38 on: April 25, 2018, 06:13:07 AM »
If you say so.

Offline Rick4003

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Re: Well? Why not?
« Reply #39 on: April 25, 2018, 09:40:58 AM »
Hi Pete,

Sounds like a good idea!

What are the actual differences in the cooling system? I'm guessing this is concerning the oil routing inside the head? or is it where it exits? Just guessing here though. Are the head castings for the 1200 and 1400 different or is it just a different valve cover?

The idea about the extra spark and the shaking sounds silly, but for guys who comes from Harleys maybe it is not easy to get used to a bike that doesn't shake about at idle....

-Ulrik
Moto Guzzi 850 T5 (850 sport) - 1985
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Offline John A

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Re: Well? Why not?
« Reply #40 on: April 25, 2018, 09:49:04 AM »
is it a defect if it idles smoothly?
John
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If you know something I really don't know, it will challenge something I presume

Offline Lcarlson

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Re: Well? Why not?
« Reply #41 on: April 25, 2018, 10:03:52 AM »
When you get right down to it, what difference does it make whether it shakes at idle or not?
Larry Carlson
Redding, CT

2002 BMW R1150R
2014 California 1400 Custom (sold)
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Online pete roper

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Re: Well? Why not?
« Reply #42 on: April 25, 2018, 02:11:07 PM »
It matters because of all the extra weight that it adds to the bike. Itís just a stupid idea.

Online beetle

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Re: Well? Why not?
« Reply #43 on: April 25, 2018, 04:45:36 PM »
They do it with the Griso as well. Yes, thanks to Meinolf's work, the Idle Ignition table has been found. Look at this poxy thing.
4 degrees of advance at idle?   :violent1:




I fix. My Griso purrs like a very big kitten, now.




Yeah, yeah. Shouldn't I let it rattle & shake like a big manly motorcycle should?  No. Don't bother to give me any crap about 'character'. Not interested.

It's only the 8V Griso that has this. The 2V and other 8V engines have sensible idle ignition tables.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2018, 07:21:53 PM by beetle »
If the river was whiskey, I was a diving duck...

Offline John A

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Re: Well? Why not?
« Reply #44 on: April 25, 2018, 05:48:35 PM »
Im not interested in a false idle either. Bikes can have enough trouble without adding in superfluous crap 
John
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If you know something I really don't know, it will challenge something I presume

Online lucian

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Re: Well? Why not?
« Reply #45 on: April 25, 2018, 07:02:37 PM »
They do it with the Griso as well. Yes, thanks to Meinolf's work, the Idle Ignition table has been found. Look at this poxy thing.
4 degrees of advance at idle?   :violent1:




I fix. My Griso purrs like a very big kitten, now.



Could it be this simple on the 7sm?  Love to loose the stupid idle shaking.


Yeah, yeah. Shouldn't I let it rattle & shake like a big manly motorcycle should?  No. Don't bother to give me any crap about 'character'. Not interested.

It's only the 8V Griso that has this. The 2V and other 8V engines have sensible idle ignition tables.

Online beetle

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Re: Well? Why not?
« Reply #46 on: April 25, 2018, 07:19:29 PM »
Yep. It's even worse on the 1400 Cali.


If the river was whiskey, I was a diving duck...

Online lucian

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Re: Well? Why not?
« Reply #47 on: April 25, 2018, 07:31:17 PM »
Yep. It's even worse on the 1400 Cali.





If you need a crash test dummy I'm in. You have my custom 14 map.

Offline jacksonracingcomau

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Re: Well? Why not?
« Reply #48 on: April 25, 2018, 08:18:23 PM »
Actually Martin, no

Unlike most �Twin Spark� designs usually used with less modern combustion chamber shapes the 7SM uses four coils and allows for a staggered spark at lower RPM. At higher engine speeds the second spark is cut. If it was necessary for either emissions or preventing end gas issues and �Surging� it would be more relevant at higher RPM where burn times are proportionally far shorter than at lower engine speeds.

 which is another reason why I�m happy to go with the single spark heads. They do need modification but cosmetically they work better,

Pete

The table between inners and outers is the trick to first sentence. Obviously you fire both at revs but getting the right differential in low and mid is the trick.
My son had 4 cyl van that did this, two distributors with 8 plugs, idea not new, was silky smooth

Cosmetically they work better ?
Classic case of form over function, proper English is look better to you, subjective of course, others might prefer the effeciency, you canít see it when you are twisting the agitator

Offline Wissing

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Re: Well? Why not?
« Reply #49 on: April 25, 2018, 09:00:27 PM »
If you need a crash test dummy I'm in. You have my custom 14 map.
:1:Let the Cali 1400 purr like a very, very big kitten!
MG California 1400 Touring
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Online oldbike54

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Re: Well? Why not?
« Reply #50 on: April 25, 2018, 11:28:51 PM »
Im not interested in a false idle either. Bikes can have enough trouble without adding in superfluous crap

 Good grief , how are they getting a V twin to even run with 4 degrees of ignition lead ?

 Dusty
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Re: Well? Why not?
« Reply #51 on: April 26, 2018, 01:04:55 AM »
They do it with the Griso as well. Yes, thanks to Meinolf's work, the Idle Ignition table has been found. Look at this poxy thing.
4 degrees of advance at idle?   :violent1:

You'd like to hope that there was a proper Engineer on the job who pushed back against the "stylists" until threatened with the sack before allowing that.

Still I'm one that can take the moral high ground as my B11 is unsullied  :laugh:
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with molested Sacred Screw - NOT BY ME!!!
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Online pete roper

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Re: Well? Why not?
« Reply #52 on: April 26, 2018, 04:54:39 AM »
The table between inners and outers is the trick to first sentence. Obviously you fire both at revs but getting the right differential in low and mid is the trick.
My son had 4 cyl van that did this, two distributors with 8 plugs, idea not new, was silky smooth

Cosmetically they work better ?
Classic case of form over function, proper English is look better to you, subjective of course, others might prefer the effeciency, you can�t see it when you are twisting the agitator

So you are saying that the Piaggio/WM system is deeply flawed.

Thank you.

Offline jacksonracingcomau

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Re: Well? Why not?
« Reply #53 on: April 26, 2018, 06:27:21 PM »
So you are saying that the Piaggio/WM system is deeply flawed.

Thank you.

Only in sense that spark and fuel could be optimised , having 4 coils not the flaw, theoretically that should be advantage
Think someone posted recently they used Guzzidiag to tune 1400,  maybe the optimised map exists but I do understand if the rbw bit is too hard.
Too hard for me definitely, along with abs and tc
The geek will inherit the earh. Or Motec

Online pete roper

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Re: Well? Why not?
« Reply #54 on: April 26, 2018, 07:51:35 PM »
Having two plugs per cylinder is unnecessary Martin. A well designed, modern, combustion chamber doesn't need it either for efficiency or emissions purposes. On an old semi head engine with a piston with an alp of alloy sitting on the deck there are of course advantages to using two plugs to promote rapid combustion. With a wonderful combustion chamber like the 8V's have it is an exercise in redundancy.

Offline jacksonracingcomau

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Re: Well? Why not?
« Reply #55 on: April 26, 2018, 08:20:50 PM »
Having two plugs per cylinder is unnecessary Martin. A well designed, modern, combustion chamber doesn't need it either for efficiency or emissions purposes. On an old semi head engine with a piston with an alp of alloy sitting on the deck there are of course advantages to using two plugs to promote rapid combustion. With a wonderful combustion chamber like the 8V's have it is an exercise in redundancy.

Odd that Ducati, BMW and I think KTM waste their money too, prob others still reaping gains
You need to wise em up, they spend millions on development, no ones told them this yet

Offline Tusayan

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Re: Well? Why not?
« Reply #56 on: April 26, 2018, 09:00:32 PM »
KTM dual plug details here

https://www.ngk.de/en/news/ngk-press-release/article/ngk-spark-plug-europe-bleibt-exklusiver-zuendkerzenlieferant-fuer-leistungsstarke-ktm-motoren/

One sure fire sign that total BS is about to follow is when the word 'modern' is thrown about by casual observers of technology.

Online pete roper

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Re: Well? Why not?
« Reply #57 on: April 27, 2018, 12:59:35 AM »
Good O!


Offline jacksonracingcomau

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Re: Well? Why not?
« Reply #58 on: April 27, 2018, 02:00:21 AM »
KTM dual plug details here

https://www.ngk.de/en/news/ngk-press-release/article/ngk-spark-plug-europe-bleibt-exklusiver-zuendkerzenlieferant-fuer-leistungsstarke-ktm-motoren/

One sure fire sign that total BS is about to follow is when the word 'modern' is thrown about by casual observers of technology.
Thanx for that, definitely modern and not BS, makes sense to me

Online pete roper

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Re: Well? Why not?
« Reply #59 on: April 27, 2018, 04:41:16 AM »
Thanx for that, definitely modern and not BS, makes sense to me

A bit of marketing fluff. Excellent.

 

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