Rollerization not necessary?

[pete roper]

What's the risk that a mechanic will misinterpret what he observes?
"Tappets look ok, hardly any wear  -  valve clearances ok, hardly changed  -  bike's running fine" = No problem

While the correct interpretation is ANY wear = failed part and possible damaged engine?

One poor sod in Finland has had his bike in two shops. First one blew him off saying they were no longer a dealer so it wasn’t their problem. Second one says there is *little* wear and it’s just down to a *Broken* lash adjuster.

[/url]

If you look at that pic you can see that the top of the tappet is well below the surface of the cambox. Before they fail they sit about a mm proud. It’s so badly degraded that enough material has worn off the foot of the tappet that the pushrod is on the point of dropping out of the rocker cup. According to the dealer there is “Little damage” and all it requires is a new lash adjuster!

They obviously haven’t removed the cambox or examined the tappet faces! It’s a fifteen minute job FFS! But no, instead they will simply close up the valve lash and send him on his way on an unsafe machine that is destroying itself.

Be afraid. Be VERY afraid.

[Nic in Western NYS]

Strange thread, I thought the fact that the flatties will fail was settled a couple of years ago.

[Wayne Orwig]

Strange thread, I thought the fact that the flatties will fail was settled a couple of years ago.

It was. But some mechanics or owners are in denial.

[guzzisteve]

I thought it was 2012 the bulletins came out and they changed the engine to rollers. Factory knows they all fail but dealers could care less about their customers. Bet they say Hydro motors are good too.
Guzzi could start jacking up the price for parts anytime now then there won't be any at all.

[pete roper]

Yup, bulletins first came out about the ‘A’ kit bikes in late 2012 then the earlier models were covered in a bulletin in about March 2013 and a supplementary one in about May. (From memory.). It was around that time I started inspecting them ‘Just because’ but since a lot of bikes were only coming in for early services not all of them showed damage. Some did but it was hit or miss. The further they’ve gone the more likely the damage will be detectable. Usually by 15-20,000km they will all be showing some wear.

Pete

[jacksonracingcomau]

Yes, and I�d been regularly inspecting bikes for long before that I�d guess but there again I�m not trying to prove anything. It amazes me that you have the time to pursue this petty vendetta against me.

In the end it turned out I�d waited too long as my motor had already lunched it�s bottom end and I had to replace it whollus bollus. As I�ve stated many times before my belief in the integrity of the flat tappet design was wrong. My defence of it was something I regret and have tried to encourage others not to make the same mistake. There is no shame in being wrong. What is shameful is living in a world of denial and trying to convince others you are right in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

Pete

Vendetta ? Please do not flatter yourself
I enjoyed your denial days, trying to find what problem was, I would have done same, flattties work for countless other makes. The just in time thread of 2015 changed all.
But OT, figures for failures will only be on kits sold or given on warranty. Factory know how many kits they have made . % of bikes sold.
If 15%, that is the number of failures they can prove. Therefore 85% did not fail
Accountants logic but if they sell another 40%, accountants laughing, dare say it is good money spinner now.
Figures for early models possibly twisted too by people fitting cheaper kits
A not putting spacer in
B using compressed air to hold valve shut and fitting a spacer without removing heads ,  saving a lot of dosh and time, still doing it right. Same way people do valve stem seals

Another option at least here in oz is to trade for new, unsold new grisos abound, if dealer says no problem with the old one he has to say it is worth a fair trade in.
I saw one advertised as 2018 model, is that possible ?

[oldbike54]

 I don't normally step into these tech discussions , but in this case I am compelled to speak up .

 The flat tappet 4 valve engines are going to fail , there is no question about this . Do we understand this ? It doesn't matter what Pete said 3 years ago , his research into the issue lead him to a different conclusion , one which Guzzisteve is in total agreement with . Stop with the personal attacks , WG is not the place for that . Do we understand this ? Good .

 For you doubters , seems Pete and Steve should stop wasting their efforts , you don't want to believe them , well , then don't . Doesn't mean they aren't right .

 Carry on .

 Dusty

[pete roper]

Vendetta ? Please do not flatter yourself
I enjoyed your denial days, trying to find what problem was, I would have done same, flattties work for countless other makes. The just in time thread of 2015 changed all.
But OT, figures for failures will only be on kits sold or given on warranty. Factory know how many kits they have made . % of bikes sold.
If 15%, that is the number of failures they can prove. Therefore 85% did not fail
Accountants logic but if they sell another 40%, accountants laughing, dare say it is good money spinner now.
Figures for early models possibly twisted too by people fitting cheaper kits
A not putting spacer in
B using compressed air to hold valve shut and fitting a spacer without removing heads ,  saving a lot of dosh and time, still doing it right. Same way people do valve stem seals

Another option at least here in oz is to trade for new, unsold new grisos abound, if dealer says no problem with the old one he has to say it is worth a fair trade in.
I saw one advertised as 2018 model, is that possible ?

Can’t be done but we won’t let that get in the way of a good story will we.

[molly]

For us who have lived through the whole sorry roller tappet saga and those who haven't it should be remembered it was Piaggio/Guzzi who cocked up the design and the subsequent failed modifications. The factory did not do the right  thing and recall all bikes for a roller conversion but instead adopted  a wait and see approach which let down the owners and created a lot of bad feeling even from dealers who were stuck trying to sell products doomed to failure.
I even wrote to UK Bike magazine to correct their review of used Grisos, saying they were misleading readers and potential buyers by not mentioning tappet failure, which they failed to rectify.
Pete Roper has more than made up for his early defending of the design when nothing was forthcoming from the factory on the subject and most people were in the dark. If it wasn't for forums such as this and the people who contribute to them there would be a lot more bikes with trashed engines by now.

[Markcarovilli]

Molly - well said...

Mark

[tris]

I don't normally step into these tech discussions , but in this case I am compelled to speak up .

 The flat tappet 4 valve engines are going to fail , there is no question about this . Do we understand this ? It doesn't matter what Pete said 3 years ago , his research into the issue lead him to a different conclusion , one which Guzzisteve is in total agreement with . Stop with the personal attacks , WG is not the place for that . Do we understand this ? Good .

 For you doubters , seems Pete and Steve should stop wasting their efforts , you don't want to believe them , well , then don't . Doesn't mean they aren't right .

 Carry on .

 Dusty

.

After talking to Pete, the mere POSSIBILITY of the tappet issues on a 4V engine was sufficient to make sure I didn't get one and went the 2V 1100 Breva route

[jacksonracingcomau]

.

After talking to Pete, the mere POSSIBILITY of the tappet issues on a 4V engine was sufficient to make sure I didn't get one and went the 2V 1100 Breva route

:1:
Excellent advise Pete, no brainer really

[pete roper]

OK. Do you want to address the question of how you could easily and simply use compressed air or the rope trick to insert shims under the seats of the valve springs on the Nuovo Hi Cam or are you just going to continue deliberately misinterpreting other people’s posts?

I’m looking forward to your solution to this issue because your trolling is really very, very tiresome. It is obvious you know nothing of the 8V and certainly have never actually worked on one so please, tell us how you can insert the required shims in a less labour intensive way than simply removing the heads? I’m all ears Martin! I’m sure others are also interested.

Money?

Mouth?

.........

[jacksonracingcomau]

OK. Do you want to address the question of how you could easily and simply use compressed air or the rope trick to insert shims under the seats of the valve springs on the Nuovo Hi Cam or are you just going to continue deliberately misinterpreting other people�s posts?

I�m looking forward to your solution to this issue because your trolling is really very, very tiresome. It is obvious you know nothing of the 8V and certainly have never actually worked on one so please, tell us how you can insert the required shims in a less labour intensive way than simply removing the heads? I�m all ears Martin! I�m sure others are also interested.

Money?

Mouth?

.........

Sorry mate time constrained
Use google someone may have posted vid
Did you say extra $1K for head off ?
Tool cheap
No vendatta, wish for best, maybe v85 is it

[pete roper]

So I was right. Your assumptions were based on ignorance. Thank you.

[jacksonracingcomau]

[quote author=pete roper link=topic=96174.msg1522139
Pricing is weird.

�A� kit-$AU 1269.38

�B� kit-$AU 998.32

�C� kit- $AU 1850.02

�D� kit-$AU North of $2,000!!!


Pete
[/quote]

[luthier]

Oh for Christ sake, someone ban this Jackson Racing fool please.  He is just a troll.

[oldbike54]

 Time to put our egos in our pockets fellas . This is a settled issue , the debate is over . Are we clear on this ?

 Dusty

[Litre1000]

Time to put our egos in our pockets fellas . This is a settled issue , the debate is over . Are we clear on this ?

 Dusty

Yes....I should stay away from ANY 8V that hasn’t been already rollerized. And since the dealer wants NADA prices for the Stelvio and Norge....it’s a no-go. I just wanna ride the dang things. Don’t need no more projects.....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[tris]

:1:
Excellent advise Pete, no brainer really

Please don't include Pete in a decision that I and I alone made

Pete just provided one opinion that helped in my understanding

Plus the experience of one guy I know that has a 8V Stelvio that ate 2 sets of tappets before it was rollered and the issue better understood

That together with my own additional research on the issue across multiple sites and multiple replies enabled me to make a grown up decision that the risk was too great for me

Personally,if I was in the market now for any 8V CARC bike, unless I unequivocally knew the history of the bike and that the rollerisation had been done by a mechanic who would ensure that there was no DLC lurking about I'd still make the same decision.

[pete roper]

[quote author=pete roper link=topic=96174.msg1522139
Pricing is weird.

�A� kit-$AU 1269.38

�B� kit-$AU 998.32

�C� kit- $AU 1850.02

�D� kit-$AU North of $2,000!!!


Pete

What relevance does the price of the kits have? I’m struggling to see your point???

[Chuck in Indiana]

Time to put our egos in our pockets fellas . This is a settled issue , the debate is over . Are we clear on this ?

 Dusty

Uhh, yeah. We are here to pick up knowledge about the machines we all love, and get some entertainment in the process. I consider everyone here to be my sometimes gloriously dysfunctional family..and like all families we have occasional disagreements. There's no need to air our squabbles in public. 

[rjamesohio]

"We spoke about the issue and they said it wasn�t necessary. That the failure rate was low. And that it would be covered under warranty if it did happen."

This isn't ignorance.   This is an attempt to defraud a potential customer.   If they were "ignorant" of it, they wouldn't make false positive statements about "failure rate", "necessary", and "warranty".

These people are lying weasels and they deserve to be out of business.

Lannis

Love you Lannis and you may very well be right but this is why Dusty is wise to advise the dealer name is taken off line. All Internet forums face this challenge of protecting the dealers that support our chosen brand. Without those resources we’d be screwed in Guzziland in terms of keeping these bikes on the road.

But sadly the council to walk away here is probably good unless they discount the bike by the amount of the repair kit and installation. Now if I was that dealer I might consider the sale price INCLUDING the kit at my cost but with the buyer taking responsibility for installation...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Kev m]

Love you Lannis and you may very well be right but this is why Dusty is wise to advise the dealer name is taken off line. All Internet forums face this challenge of protecting the dealers that support our chosen brand. Without those resources we’d be screwed in Guzziland in terms of keeping these bikes on the road.

I don't see your logic at all.


Why should we protect/preserve the lousy dealers?!?

[oldbike54]

 <sigh>

 No one is protecting a lousy dealer , but there is more to this that goes on behind the scenes than you might know .

 Let go of this guys , we have settled the flat tappet issue . Fact is , all anyone needs to do is search WG for the answer , and if a prospective buyer doesn't participate here they won't read any of this anyway . Understand ? Outing a dealer accomplishes nothing except causing that dealer to send me a nasty email .

 Dusty

[rjamesohio]

I don't see your logic at all.


Why should we protect/preserve the lousy dealers?!?

I don’t condone protecting dealers any more than I condone trashing them. Their business is up to them.

the internet has become a very unfriendly place for vendors who should not have to continuously defend themselves.

So all I’m saying is that the forum rules here make sense. Especially when we’re talking about very few places that cater to the Guzzi world.

As for this particular discussion : it seemed to me that a simple question was asked and before long we had indicted the dealer. It’s true that there are bad dealers out there and they deserve to fail but I think the best way is to let the customer and dealer work it out.

I thought my potential solution would be a good one?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Litre1000]

But it seems to me that this particular bike is a lemon and it is being sold on the pretense that some fail and some don’t. That just seems wrong.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Kev m]

I really don't see the problem here. If we're being told accurately what the dealer's staff has said people can judge for themselves. If there's some misrepresentation then it wouldn't take a potential customer long to figure the out too.

So "Outing" the dealer (what a silly phrase in this case) would simply provide readers of a way to judge for themselves if they want to do business with them. Or help them be aware of what potential questions they might want to ask them.

Though I'm sure someone who cared enough could figure it out from the info already provided.

So I fail to see how hushing the name accomplishes anything. And certainly I don't see how mentioning the name would violate board policies.

I don't really have a dog in this hunt as it obviously isn't any dealer near me.

It was just that reading the conversation it all comes across a bit juvenile, but as you wish.

[oldbike54]

 <SIGH> Anyone who is curious about the identity of the dealer can PM the OP . This was suggested way early on , no idea why some are so intent on continuing an incredibly unproductive discussion .

 Dusty

[oldbike54]

Unproductive why?

Because someone disagrees with you?

All I was going to do was comment on how silly it sounded and leave it at that.

 No , because the issue is settled . Why is that so hard to understand ?

 Dusty