In 25 years, who...

[twowings]

Wonder how many guys can still work lead anymore? Bondo killed off a real art...

[oldbike54]

Wonder how many guys can still work lead anymore? Bondo killed off a real art...

 Well , that and dain bramage 

 Dusty

[PhilB]

I think a relevant factor is that, as cars (and motorcycles) become more sophisticated and complex, they will become ever more difficult -- if not impossible -- to restore, or even keep running.  That's going to be a problem for the hobby.

PhilB

[Kiwi_Roy]

I won't be here to worry about it in 25 years or if I am I will be long past caring LOL

[pressureangle]

Dominic Toretto??? is that you? 

That was a '70, you can tell by the wraparound front bumper which facilitated using the front fenders with the nose of the Daytona Charger. Also the long slot taillights whereas the '68 has four round lamps. A point of interest is that the movie car had a small block chevy under the blower.

;)

[oldbike54]

I won't be here to worry about it in 25 years or if I am I will be long past caring LOL

 Stop with the making sense Roy , you know there is no place for that here 

 Dusty

[yogidozer]

That was a '70, you can tell by the wraparound front bumper which facilitated using the front fenders with the nose of the Daytona Charger. Also the long slot taillights whereas the '68 has four round lamps. A point of interest is that the movie car had a small block chevy under the blower.

;)

you're right, been a long time since I saw that movie, forgot what that scene. I had a friend who had a 68, back in high school. that was a loooong time ago. 

[Lannis]

I think a relevant factor is that, as cars (and motorcycles) become more sophisticated and complex, they will become ever more difficult -- if not impossible -- to restore, or even keep running.  That's going to be a problem for the hobby.

PhilB

Depends on your motivation.   In other countries (Near East, South Asia), there are entire cottage industries dedicated to fixing and repairing electronic devices that we in the US would never even consider trying to fix - we just toss them out and buy another.

But if you've got time and not money, and a bunch of non-working electronics, you can figure out how to crack them open and probe for what's wrong, and get them working and sell them.

A blacksmith who could repair a cart axle or a single-tree would probably believe it would be impossible to rebuild a Smith's Magnetic tachometer or a Lucas K2F magneto.   But people do it every day, for not a lot of money, and send it back all fixed and working.

The same will be true for a Centauro ECU or a Harley TPS someday .... What one guy can design and build, another can fix.

Lannis

[John Croucher]

Your question covers more than motor vehicles.  I have 3 homes full of antiques that will probably go into a roll back dumpster.  My Mother in law has collected-hoarded massive amounts of stuff I have know interest in and have know place to put.  My Wife and I have watched other dispose of their parents stuff the same way.  The perceived value to the parents is just not worth our time and effort to dispose of it.  Hundreds of hours of sorting, buyers that never show up and researching the market makes it a labor of love. 

As far as motor vehicles go, there will be market, but limited.  There will be wealthy people in America for a long time that will be able to afford toys.  I believe the problem will be the lack of skills and knowledge to maintain them in working condition.  This is already occurring today.  Old School mechanics are getting few and far between.  I own a 2003 Dodge Neon SXT.  Very low miles, very clean and always kept in a garage.  Is it collectable?  It could be to someone.  A car I owned and wish I still had, 1976 Datsun 280Z 2+2.  My dream car, 1972 Corvette. 

This is my opinion.  I am not a collector of stuff.  What I have collected, I have been getting rid of.  Mostly just personal memory stuff and not so much collectibles. 

[Rough Edge racing]

Wonder how many guys can still work lead anymore? Bondo killed off a real art...

 But today there are guys who can work sheet metal needing near zero filler...You won't find these guys at your local body body shop of course..Body panel work is not art, it's a learned trade...But when it goes into custom metal shaping then it's art...The great customizers of the 1950's like George Baris were artists with plastic body filler...It often covered up rather crude metal work..

[willowstreetguzziguy]

Same with old baseball cards. I have cards from the 1960's that I will sell soon because the audience for these is shrinking every day. And their value will go down.

[Lannis]

Same with old baseball cards. I have cards from the 1960's that I will sell soon because the audience for these is shrinking every day. And their value will go down.

Good point.   Maybe the "baseball card" thing was just a fad with a very long half-life?   

If fewer new collectors of cards are coming into the market than old collectors who die and their collections are sold off, then the price WILL go down.

Cabbage Patch Kids?   Beanie Babies?  Tickle Me Elmo?  Prices for these could go into the thousands in the 80s and 90s.   You can probably buy any of them for $5 now.

Maybe it's 'intrinsic value'.    But that won't explain why an "Action Comics #1" introducing Superman still sells for millions of dollars, and probably still will 50 years from now.

Anyway, I still don't see a nice Model A or a 440 Cuda selling for chicken feed in my grandchildren's lifetimes!

Lannis

[willowstreetguzziguy]

Anyone who spends $50,000 and up on a classic car, motorcycle, coin, etc. is doing so for enjoyment but mainly as an investment. They aren't figuring on it losing 10's or hundreds of thousands of dollars. They are banking it will go up in value in the next few years or they wouldn't be buying it.

[Lannis]

Anyone who spends $50,000 and up on a classic car, motorcycle, coin, etc. is doing so for enjoyment but mainly as an investment. They aren't figuring on it losing 10's or hundreds of thousands of dollars. They are banking it will go up in value in the next few years or they wouldn't be buying it.

That could very well be.

In my Mom's last couple of years here, she and I enjoyed watching the televised car auctions on TV.   She was always a "car chick" and enjoyed driving ever since she got her license in 1943.

So she knew a lot of these old cars when they were new.

As we watched, I noticed for several reasons the guys that were bidding on them and buying them :

1) Most of them looked a lot like me.

2) I know a lot of guys right here locally who have $250,000 to play with.   They own and operate small construction companies, logging operations,  farm supply stores, industrial maintenance firms.  They've worked their arses off for 30 years building up the company, haven't taken much out of it, don't have time to spend a lot of money on hobbies ... but now they're in Vegas and on TV!

3) And there's a lovely lady in a nice suit working for the auction company right next to them, just flogging the car they're bidding on.   "You'd look good in that!"   "You had one of these back in the day, didn't you?   I know you did, bring this one home"  "Come on now, don't lose this car for a $1000 bid - one more bid and it's yours" looking them right in the eye and egging them on for all they're worth.   Powerful medicine, is that.

So it might be an investment, or it might be their 15 minutes of worldly fame, you just never know ....

Lannis

[twowings]

The world is moving at an ever-increasing pace towards freeing itself from internal combustion...Some of us may not live to see it, but it will happen...

[pressureangle]

Anyone who spends $50,000 and up on a classic car, motorcycle, coin, etc. is doing so for enjoyment but mainly as an investment. They aren't figuring on it losing 10's or hundreds of thousands of dollars. They are banking it will go up in value in the next few years or they wouldn't be buying it.

My personal position, and my direct observation of others who have spent big money on old cars, is that 80% of us drive the ass off of these cars.

What would you rather drive for $80k, a '68 Charger with modern disc brakes, cruise control, air conditioning, 24mpg, or a new BMW?

It's not for everyone, but it's a choice not to be discarded.

[Tusayan]

The world is moving at an ever-increasing pace towards freeing itself from internal combustion...Some of us may not live to see it, but it will happen...

At the moment, I think mankind is not so much freeing itself from internal combustion as it is struggling to remain individually free as it is forcibly removed from us by those who would like to control our movement.

Regardless, power plants will be burning natural gas in 200 years, so I don't think there's much chance of chemical combustion as a power source fading away completely, ever.

The cars and motorcycles of the 20th century are becoming considered art... iconic quasi religious symbols that simply aren't  going to fade away I suspect people will be fooling with them still in 500 years.  No, a V12 Ferrari and the man who made them is not going to be forgotten in a few hundred years, and nor will the American cars of 1950s.

[Rough Edge racing]

 I know quite a few guys 25-35 years old...Around here, rural area, it's 4x4 pick up trucks ,often diesels with modified engines..Guys in the city lean towards tuned Japanese cars. A few have new Camaros, Mustangs or Mopars. To them, a late model Pony Car or pick up truck makes more sense than old very expensive cars with less performance...

[oldbike54]

 Here is what I see happening in Oklahoma . 15 year ago it seemed every 25 year old had a
mini-truck all blinged out , or a pocket-rocket car with an almost open exhaust , or a sportbike with mods . Now it is exceedingly rare to encounter any of those vehicles  . There are still a few muscle cars being driven by graybeards , and Harleys are still somewhat common , also mostly ridden by older men or women . Yeah , there are remnants of the scene from a few years back , but even one of the young guys I knew who was heavily involved in the pocket rocket car and HD culture has moved on . He mostly just does tattoo work and build custom computers for folks . I went by his house recently and stopped for a few minutes and was slightly surprised that there was no Honda car undergoing some engine swap , or motorcycle being customized in his shop . He simply stated that those things had become boring and expensive , and he had sold everything for pennies on the dollar.

 Dusty

[willowstreetguzziguy]

Tattoos and computers,  ha! I see a lot of that. That is the generation that will take our place in 25 years. Very interesting!

[Toecutter]

Around here... toys rule. Side-by-sides, quads, dirtbikes, boats, and toy hauler/RVs.

Every house has a sub-$1000 mini-truck 4X4 for banging around the bush.

[Tusayan]

Do the tattoos depict early 80s computers?   

I don't think anybody has actually forgotten the real world, at least not completely, especially once they have the money to be real.

[Lannis]

Tattoos and computers,  ha! I see a lot of that. That is the generation that will take our place in 25 years. Very interesting!

When you put it that way, it DOES sound a bit unlikely .... !   

[canuck750]

I grew up in the 60's and 70's and loved muscle cars, My first car (not a muscle car) was a 1965 Mustang 2+2, 289 4bbl, 4 speed drum brake model. I sold it to buy my first house, never got back into old cars again. A couple years ago I went to Barret Jackson in Phoenix and took a look at all the late 60's muscle cars that had sold or were for sale. The price for a very nice 69 Mustang Mach 1 was around $95K. At West World a guy had a big tent with 2 or 3 year old luxury sport cars, Ferrari, Maserati, Aston Martin, BMW M series etc. For about the same money or less one could get an almost new 400 ~ 600 hp car that handled, stopped, was comfortable and would blow the doors off every muscle car being offered. After seeing that comparison in prices / value I gave up any desire to own a 60's muscle car. When I compare the 67 Vette 427 triple 2bbl, 435 hp, 0-60 in 5 seconds, it is a slow performance car by current standards.  A new BMW M5 is over 2 seconds faster to 60 and its corners, stops, holds five people and is comfortable all day long, even the standard BMW V8 5 series is 0-60 in under 4 seconds and costs less than what a 69 Mach 1 is going for.

Now if a real nice 69 Mach 1 was being offered for say $40K that would bring me back to old cars.

[Lannis]

I grew up in the 60's and 70's and loved muscle cars, My first car (not a muscle car) was a 1965 Mustang 2+2, 289 4bbl, 4 speed drum brake model. I sold it to buy my first house, never got back into old cars again. A couple years ago I went to Barret Jackson in Phoenix and took a look at all the late 60's muscle cars that had sold or were for sale. The price for a very nice 69 Mustang Mach 1 was around $95K. At West World a guy had a big tent with 2 or 3 year old luxury sport cars, Ferrari, Maserati, Aston Martin, BMW M series etc. For about the same money or less one could get an almost new 400 ~ 600 hp car that handled, stopped, was comfortable and would blow the doors off every muscle car being offered. After seeing that comparison in prices / value I gave up any desire to own a 60's muscle car. When I compare the 67 Vette 427 triple 2bbl, 435 hp, 0-60 in 5 seconds, it is a slow performance car by current standards.  A new BMW M5 is over 2 seconds faster to 60 and its corners, stops, holds five people and is comfortable all day long, even the standard BMW V8 5 series is 0-60 in under 4 seconds and costs less than what a 69 Mach 1 is going for.

Now if a real nice 69 Mach 1 was being offered for say $40K that would bring me back to old cars.

So the interest in, and prices paid, for 428 Cobra-Jets and 340 Six Packs very obviously has nothing to do with the relative performance between those cars and modern cars.

It's something else.

For example, why would I load up a 58 year old BSA (which would see off almost any car made in its day) with camping gear, tools, etc and ride it 800 miles to a rally, when for the $7500 that that bike is worth, I could be riding a 650 V-strom that will grossly outperform it in every way, speed, brakes, handling, reliability ... ?   

Explain THAT and you'll have the answer as to why some guys WOULD have a mint El Camino and would NOT have a Range Rover for the same money .... !

Lannis

[canuck750]

So the interest in, and prices paid, for 428 Cobra-Jets and 340 Six Packs very obviously has nothing to do with the relative performance between those cars and modern cars.

It's something else.

For example, why would I load up a 58 year old BSA (which would see off almost any car made in its day) with camping gear, tools, etc and ride it 800 miles to a rally, when for the $7500 that that bike is worth, I could be riding a 650 V-strom that will grossly outperform it in every way, speed, brakes, handling, reliability ... ?   

Explain THAT and you'll have the answer as to why some guys WOULD have a mint El Camino and would NOT have a Range Rover for the same money .... !

Lannis

The THAT is called nostalgia, the definition of why I have a bunch of old Italian motorcycles. The thing about nostalgia driving interest and prices of an item is that once the personal connection (ie, nostalgia) is gone between potential buyer and said item the value drops off.

My point is that if someone who did not grow up with, lusted over, rode in etc. a late 60's muscle car the nostalgia is not there and the same potential buyer will likely de drawn to a more current performance vehicle. As time goes buy there are fewer and fewer buyers for the 60's and 70's muscle cars, partly because the glut of us baby boomers have passed and those with spare money will be looking for something else reflective of their generation.

[Tusayan]

Saying personal nostalgia is the cause of enthusiasm for older classic vehicles is like saying we ride Moto Guzzis because we love Italy...  when many who love Guzzis in America have never been to Italy, no more than they have enjoyed time travel.

There is so much more going on: the accessibility of the technology, the appreciation of the design philosophy, the proven sustainability of the vehicles themselves, the appreciation of history and culture in which they were not necessarily directly involved.  Reasonably intelligent people can and do extend their interests beyond their personal life experience.

[Lannis]

My point is that if someone who did not grow up with, lusted over, rode in etc. a late 60's muscle car the nostalgia is not there and the same potential buyer will likely de drawn to a more current performance vehicle. As time goes buy there are fewer and fewer buyers for the 60's and 70's muscle cars, partly because the glut of us baby boomers have passed and those with spare money will be looking for something else reflective of their generation.

But (as I think I said once but maybe not) that doesn't explain why sports cars and bikes of the 20s and 30s, who NO ONE ALIVE was lusting after and buying when they were new, are selling for stratospheric prices, and being bought by guys who didn't get the foggiest bit interested in them until they were grown and oldish men ....

[Tusayan]

Pre-war cars are often used as an example of how personal nostalgia drives the collector car market:  Ford Model As an Ts and other more numerous types have decreased in value.  However the more glamorous and interesting types have done the opposite and risen in value , maybe because people see the past they didn't actually experience though rose tinted glasses or because they want to escape the limits of their own life experience.  Who knows?  I think the market does change as the items get older, but it does not disappear.

[Murray]

Lannis hit on it. You guys are thinking muscle cars and hot rods. The younger generation is tuners and drifters. Still cars, just different strokes. The one common interest will probably be the off roaders. That crowd doesn't really change tastes.

-AJ

Seen the price of an R34 GTR recently? Bring money and lots of it.