(NGC) - need firearm sight adjustment advice.

[Gliderjohn]

I have a like new Makarov (Bulgarian). I would like to drift the rear sight just a bit. The sight sits in a dovetail and should drift adjust with a punch. I cannot budge the sight at all and I don't know how hard I should force it. Any tricks or thoughts from anyone here?
GliderJohn

[John A]

OK, this may or may not be a good idea but maybe fill it with Devcon and file a groove and stain it to match. guy hates to wail on it to get it to move

[yogidozer]

are you using a brass drift?

[Gliderjohn]

From yogidozer:

are you using a brass drift?

Know I should but no. Put some cloth between the punch and the sight. Have not scratched anything. Probably should get a brass one before continuing.
GliderJohn

[yogidozer]

From yogidozer:Know I should but no. Put some cloth between the punch and the sight. Have not scratched anything. Probably should get a brass one before continuing.
GliderJohn

STOP! Get a brass drift. Might help if you remove the slide and support it best you can. I bet once you move it, it will be easier next time.

[twowings]

Better hurry!! 

[Rich A]

Penetrating oil?

[Jurgen]

I just read Rich A's suggestion and in addition have a couple more that I mentioned to him:

Rich,
Read your comment on sight adjustment.  I wonder how he is supporting the gun itself.  For a drift to work in that situation, you need a good mass (lots of weight like an anvil) behind the sight with the gun well supported.  Or a brass jig in a big, Wilton vise.  I wonder how a real gunsmith would do it (and not bugger up the sight or the gun itself).  I'm a firm believer in good jigs and supports, I'v ruined a number of parts before I learned that.  Jürgen

[yogidozer]

Jurgen, That's why I suggested removing and supporting the slide. I have a lead hammer I made to use with the brass drift for this type of things.
It really shouldn't take much effort, I bet there is corrosion involved.
John, you might want to take it to a gunsmith if it does not move with a little effort.

[Neil]

      Field strip it so the slide is off the frame. Put the slide in a padded vise , or a regular vise that you've added padding to: a couple of appropriate lengths from an old leather belt, etc. Yes, as has been mentioned a brass drift is best, but some sights just will not move when using  a brass drift to transfer the force from the hammer blow. Sometimes , you have to ratchet it up a notch, and use a steel drift. We've seen brass punches bend after a few hammer blows. Then the heavier artillery comes out.  I don't have a Makarov handy in the shop, but is there a setscrew of some type in the rear sight block itself that needs to be loosened first? Doesn't show in the exploded drawing I have, but they were made in several countries.  Silly question, but...
      If the brass punch doesn't work, put some penetrating oil the dovetail, and let it sit overnight in the vise on its side, so the oil can do its magic, then have at it again with the brass drift. If the sight still doesn't  move, then go to the next force level. You probably won't have to go that far-(using a steel punch).

[Sheepdog]

John, don’t forget that you must tap from left to right to loosen (with the barrel facing away-natch) and right to left to tighten the sight in the dovetail...

[Gliderjohn]

Thanks all for the tips and suggestions. Will try the slide in the vise with padding and penetrating oil. When shooting I group about 2" to the left at 50'. Just need a little movement. Vertical is right on. There is no sign of a set screw. They are nice functional pistols.
GliderJohn

[SmithSwede]

John, your taste in handguns is impeccable.  I think very highly of Maks, even though they are bottom feeders.

I agree about using a brass drift and getting the slide into a vise.  Unless you have or can modify a screw type sight pusher.   

You might also want to judiciously apply some heat from a propane torch to the slide so it will swell up a bit and relax the dovetail.   The heat may also warm up dried caked cosmolone.

Are you happy with the width of the rear sight?   Because another way to solve the problem is to carefully widen the rear sight notch on one side.   Open up the left side if you want the group to move to the left.

Replacement rear sights for a Mak are cheap, about $5.  So the goal is not to bugger up the slide. 

[lti_57]

They A great little hand guns super accurate reliable
They Make good Conceal Carry,I second the removal of slid and a bit of heat,
you dont have much metal you are working with as far as the sight goes.

[SmithSwede]

Iti_57:

I think that John is talking about a Russian designed Makarov made in Bulgaria, i.e. a Пистолет Макарова or Pistolet Makarova.  Commonly called a Bulgarian Mak.

The pictures you posted appear to be of a Polish P-64.  It uses the same ammo as John's Bulgarian Mak, but is an entirely different pistol.   I'm not knocking your P-64, just saying I think it is not the same pistol as what John is referring to.

I am pretty sure that John bought the Russian designed pistol so he would fit in at Cedar Vale next year with all the other Russkie stuff thereabouts. 

[Gliderjohn]

From SmithSwede:

The heat may also warm up dried caked cosmolone.

Thanks for the kind words Prescott. You may be on to something with the cosmoline as it had a fair coating on it when I bought it and spent quite a bit of time removing it the best I could. Sticky stuff!
What is "applying a little heat"? I have a propane bottle torch attachment.
GliderJohn

[Chuck in Indiana]

What is "applying a little heat"? I have a propane bottle torch attachment.

Step away from the gun, lay down the propane torch, and nobody gets hurt.. 
Maybe a heat gun?

[Gliderjohn]

From Chuck:

Step away from the gun, lay down the propane torch, and nobody gets hurt.. 
Maybe a heat gun?

That's why I was asking. It can vary from a match to a blow torch. Would a hair dryer on high setting be enough?
GliderJohn

[Aaron D.]

Look up sight pusher.

[SmithSwede]

How hot?  Well, you don’t want to change the temper of the metal.   I would suggest using a heat gun, or judiciously use a propane torch, to get the metal too hot to comfortably touch.   Certainly not red-hot or anything. 

It would not surprise me that when you heat it up and bunch of cosmoline liquifies or smokes up, and then you can easily drift the sight. 

[SmithSwede]

Ok, here is my serious advice.   

I personally would not jack with the gun.   It is a new gun to you.  Your error of 2 inches at 50 feet could be due to the way you are holding the gun.  Or the angle of the sun on the open iron sights.  Or your trigger technique.   Or the ammo.  The next time you shoot it, it might not be off by 2 inches to the left.

Personally, I would not attempt to adjust sights on a fixed sight gun unless I have shot it many many times, under varied conditions, and I have convinced myself there is a definite error that needs fixing.

I have seen many people with adjustable sight guns adjusting the sights 8 clicks right one day, only to go 8 clicks left the next day.   No big deal with adjustable sights, but a lot of needless hammering on a fixed sight gun.

[SmithSwede]

John:

Here is your challenge.   Assume you are absolutely correct that you have a 2 inch error to the left at 50 feet (which I think is doubtful, but assume it is true).  I have done the math for you.  To fix that error, you need to move the rear sight 0.17 inches to the right.  Good luck doing that with a hammer, as opposed to a sight pusher.   

Feel free to double check this.   I measured sight radius on my Bulgarian Mak at 5.125 inches.  50 feet is 600 inches.   600/5.125 is 117.07.   Two inches divided by 117.07 means the sight adjustment required is 0.017 inches.

[normzone]

Ok, here is my serious advice.   

I personally would not jack with the gun.   It is a new gun to you.  Your error of 2 inches at 50 feet could be due to the way you are holding the gun.  Or the angle of the sun on the open iron sights.  Or your trigger technique.   Or the ammo.  The next time you shoot it, it might not be off by 2 inches to the left.

Personally, I would not attempt to adjust sights on a fixed sight gun unless I have shot it many many times, under varied conditions, and I have convinced myself there is a definite error that needs fixing.

I have seen many people with adjustable sight guns adjusting the sights 8 clicks right one day, only to go 8 clicks left the next day.   No big deal with adjustable sights, but a lot of needless hammering on a fixed sight gun.

I'm even lazier than that - my groups tend to go high and to the right. I just aim a little low and to the left. It's probably my grip ...

[Chuck in Indiana]

Operator error.    *Generally* shooting to the left means you don't have quite enough finger on the trigger. Consistently grouping tightly at 50 feet is darn fine handgun shooting.   

[Gliderjohn]

I have actually owned the Mak for a few years and have put 500+ rounds through it with various brands of ammo. Have tried various holds and finger positioning and it stays impacting a bit left. I also shoot left handed. Really is not a big deal, just don't like having to hold the sights off to impact where I wish.
Started out having a similar problem with a S&W Mod. 64 but found a hand position that pretty well eliminated it. My Mod. 36 snubby shoots dead center for me and so does my Uberti SSA replica.
GliderJohn

[Rick in WNY]

John:

Here is your challenge.   Assume you are absolutely correct that you have a 2 inch error to the left at 50 feet (which I think is doubtful, but assume it is true).  I have done the math for you.  To fix that error, you need to move the rear sight 0.17 inches to the right.  Good luck doing that with a hammer, as opposed to a sight pusher.   

Feel free to double check this.   I measured sight radius on my Bulgarian Mak at 5.125 inches.  50 feet is 600 inches.   600/5.125 is 117.07.   Two inches divided by 0.17 means the sight adjustment required is 0.17 inches.

Ummm, not to nitpick, your theory is correct, your math is okay, but you dropped the decimal point...

Two inches divided by 117.07 = 0.017"... not 0.17" That move would make him hit 18 inches off the other way...

I also second a sight pusher. Get one with a known screw pitch, like 1/4"-20. Each complete turn is 1/20 of an inch, or 0.050", so 1/3 of a turn would put the rear sight where you want it. As stated, good luck trying to do that with a hammer.

[Chuck in Indiana]

I have actually owned the Mak for a few years and have put 500+ rounds through it with various brands of ammo. Have tried various holds and finger positioning and it stays impacting a bit left. I also shoot left handed. Really is not a big deal, just don't like having to hold the sights off to impact where I wish.
Started out having a similar problem with a S&W Mod. 64 but found a hand position that pretty well eliminated it. My Mod. 36 snubby shoots dead center for me and so does my Uberti SSA replica.
GliderJohn

Oh.. left handed shooter. Too much trigger finger or thumb pressure.  Of course, if you shoot this much, I don't need to tell you that. Do whatever it takes to move the sight. 

[Sheepdog]

John, are you left or right eye dominant? Shooting with the non-dominant eye will move point of impact...

[Gliderjohn]

Left handed and left eye. Since I can place an avg. of four out of five shots within a 4x6 inch target at 50' with my snub nose I think my hand and eye agree. The posted target is five shots at 50' two hand hold from my Uberti .45.






GliderJohn

[Chuck in Indiana]

Darn fine shootin indeed..