gtmotocycles GTM01 1400 CC Tonti merged threadfest .

[LBC Tenni]

As someone said earlier, trust is very important. My Norge came from the previous owner with the GT PCV/autotune setup. It was terrible. So bad in fact, that the poor guy gave up, bought an FJR, and sold the Norge to me at a huge loss. I removed the PCV/autotune and loaded Mark’s map. It has run perfectly ever since. In light of my experience, I don’t see this living up to the hype or the price tag. Buyer beware.

[TN Mark]

Something was certainly installed and/or setup incorrectly on that Norge. A PCV with an autotune are very reliable and work very well. By design, the autotune will over write a pre loaded map. But good for you as someone else’s error resulted in such a poor running motorcycle that you got a great deal. Again, the parts are fine and work well in the hands of a competent installer/tuner. I intentionally chose not to use an autotune as I’m not a tuning expert and wanted to leave that to an actual professional.

[pebra]

Seems to me we’re trying to discuss several subjects more or less simultaneously here.
Given the lack of details on the web site, we could also discuss if the discussion is worthwhile, but hey, it’s a forum! 
I’d point to these subjects foremost:

• The looks of a custom build
• The frame
• The weight
• The motor and performance figures
• The credibility of the builder. I have the impression that this subject is being discussed on this forum from time to time, and have absolutely nothing to contribute here.

I will get out of my closet and say that I like the basic design of the bike, and I’m convinced a rear end could be devised to suit my taste and needs, also ergonomics. 

But I don’t understand why a Tonti frame is used. Registration / title reasons? Are those supposed to be original frames? I’m not convinced that a Tonti frame is the way to go for a chassis for a 140 hp bike (rather the opposite, in fact), but other people should know much more about that than I do.

Who would say no to a big block CARC Guzzi at 396 lbs?  Certainly not me. I think this is by far the biggest (advertised) asset  -  but also a figure that’s hard to believe.

Is the «140+ hp» engine based on a 8V 1200, or on the 1400? Again, other people should know much more about the feasibility of this than I do. 140 hp crank or rear wheel? Wouldn’t matter to me, and in fact I’d rather have the original motor.

[Kev m]

But I donâ€[emoji769]t understand why a Tonti frame is used. Registration / title reasons? Are those supposed to be original frames? Iâ€[emoji769]m not convinced that a Tonti frame is the way to go for a chassis for a 140 hp bike (rather the opposite, in fact), but other people should know much more about that than I do.

I'm no expert, but here's one thing that stands out to me.

On a traditional frame like the Tonti, the frame itself does indeed provide most/all of the structural rigidity, though the engine may contribute when mounted solidly like a structural member.

However on a bike that uses subframe assemblies as I believe the CARC does the engine and and driveline provide most of the structural rigidity. The rear frame section basically supports the rider/bodywork and perhaps provides a mounting tie-in to the rear suspension, the front supports the front suspension and needs to be significant. I'm not sure a modified Tonti wouldn't be more than up to the task then since the motor/driveline is a large part of the work.

[Frenchfrog]

I'm pretty sure that they use a Tonti because it is easier to get through the TUV with older bikes....Germany was allways very strict with homologation for street use.

[bad Chad]

I'm dubious of TN Marks claims of easy Hp and trq numbers.  Mark you are claiming as fact that for $1000 and one day in the garage a Vic 106 motor can be taken from 62hp to 114hp and similar rise in Trq!  To make it even more off the wall, this huge power increase comes with 50% less engine heat, and better mpg!   I admit I don't know a whole lot about motors, but I do know enough to be skeptical of your claims.  I don't doubt that you believe these claims, but I suspect they are substantially over blown by those who would benefit from selling the story, and parts!

Where can we go to see the evidence that supports your claims?  Have these claims been born out by folks who don't have a dog in the fight?  Or are they just what the speed shops that sell the parts claim, etc?

[guzzisteve]

Well, Todd made the jump to sell bikes. I'm sure the buyers will review such machines and we will hear of it just like the other custom builders.  All specs will follow said reviews, it won't be speculation.  In fact ALL here can go to CA and ride the stuff if you want, it's sold to the public so go and try it out.
I'll bet if you showed up with real$$$ you could do such a thing AND see it on the dyno too.

[Idontwantapickle]

Why do you think there's a lot of steel missing? Anything rear of the swing arm pivots and shock mount is really only there to hold the seat.

Look at the Bellagio frame. It is very close to an identical match.

First picture is the original setup of the Bellagio and it even have the small aluminium disks that sits in the tip of the frame triangle.

The second picture is a custom made by Officine RossoPuro. Much better seat and fender solution in my opinion.

I still believe that the gtm01 is just a bellagio frame with an 8v engine mounted. It looks so much like the Bellagio frame that I find it hard to believe that they have made it from scratch.

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

I don't think that it is missing. It is missing.

[rdbandkab]

Just needs NOS or a turbo! 

[arveno]

Why do they always chop off the rear of these bikes ?
I never understood.

Ohhh well...

[alanp]

Too bad about all the negativity.
I think it is awesome that someone is offering this.  They are custom, so if you want a rear fender have them build it with one.  HP?  It’s a 1400 8V engine, it will have plenty of power.  Weight?  It’s a pretty minimal bike, the weight will be less than any other 1400 Guzzi and the power to weight should be more than anyone needs.  Honesty of the builder?  Well, that might be a point worth considering but if you have ever purchased a new motorcycle you have already crossed that bridge.  All manufacturers have routinely fudged power and weight numbers.
It reminds me of an MGS01 except much better looking (with a different rear end treatment).  I would much rather have this than an MGS01.  Kudos for building an interesting and desirable custom Guzzi and making it an option for us.

[Luap McKeever]

Sorry...


My opinion only. I like things I can ride all day long without wanting to commit suicide. But, who am I to judge?  I'm sure it's a nice scoot, but just not my cup of tea. 

[Luap McKeever]

Too bad about all the negativity.
I think it is awesome that someone is offering this.  They are custom, so if you want a rear fender have them build it with one.  HP?  It�s a 1400 8V engine, it will have plenty of power.  Weight?  It�s a pretty minimal bike, the weight will be less than any other 1400 Guzzi and the power to weight should be more than anyone needs.  Honesty of the builder?  Well, that might be a point worth considering but if you have ever purchased a new motorcycle you have already crossed that bridge.  All manufacturers have routinely fudged power and weight numbers.
It reminds me of an MGS01 except much better looking (with a different rear end treatment).  I would much rather have this than an MGS01.  Kudos for building an interesting and desirable custom Guzzi and making it an option for us.

What one person calls negativity, another would call public opinion.  That's the whole point of a discussion board.  Sharing opinions to collectively appreciate each other and their viewpoints.

[Toecutter]

Custom bikes always bring out the armchair builders.

I'd build it this way.

I'd have done this.

I wouldn't have done that.

I'm calling bullshit on X claims.

Why did they build it the way they did? The way I like bikes is the right way.

Not to mention, seems like anything GT on this board is simply gonna get shit on. Hell, he could be doing straight restos, and someone's gonna crap on it.

Here's the thing... not everything is built "for you". Why is the rear end the way it is? Because that's the way people like them today. He's building for a modern market, and the guys that want single purpose, stylish machines will eat that thing up. There are  an awful lot of people that want stylish, good looking, go fast machines for nothing more than... oddly enough... looking good and going fast.

As for power? If he's full of it, it'll come out in the wash. If not... anyone here that's calling him on it going to admit they were wrong?

Now, someone's gonna come by, and ironically tell me that my opinion about their opinion isn't a valid opinion, and how I should lighten up, because it's a public forum and that's just how it is.

I dunno. This whole WG vs GT shit rubs me the wrong way, both ways. It all feels so very... high school.

[oldbike54]

 Enough already , this isn't a WG VS GT thing , so stop with that nonsense , or I will stop it . Do we understand ? The GT site doesn't allow for anything non GT related to be discussed , talk to the owners about that fact then we can and will have the discussion . Until then , if someone here wants to critique one of GT's products , don't get all twisted out of shape .

 Dusty

[Toecutter]

Enough already , this isn't a WG VS GT thing , so stop with that nonsense , or I will stop it . Do we understand ? The GT site doesn't allow for anything non GT related to be discussed , talk to the owners about that fact then we can and will have the discussion . Until then , if someone here wants to critique one of GT's products , don't get all twisted out of shape .

 Dusty

Who's twisted out of shape? And why can't I speak my own mind? Everyone else is. I'm discussing two different topics, here, and the GT thing is the least of them.

Also, I feel like maybe this part was missed?

"This whole WG vs GT shit rubs me the wrong way, both ways. It all feels so very... high school."

[Luap McKeever]

This whole WG vs GT shit rubs me the wrong way, both ways. It all feels so very... high school.

There is no contest. None. Whatsoever. I was expressing my opinion as were others. Even if MG themselves built it, I'd say the same thing.  Oh wait, I have. That's called diversity.  Fact is, I didn't even realize it was a GT bike until it was mentioned, after I seen the photo.

Let's all take a breath now...

[LBC Tenni]

seems like anything GT on this board is simply gonna get shit on. Hell, he could be doing straight restos, and someone's gonna crap on it.

This seems to be a recurring theme on every forum but GT.

Karma for selling lots of people expensive stuff that doesn’t work?

[Kev m]

EDIT

That's because anything NON-GT is banned from the GT forum (i.e. he deletes it) so how could it become a recurring theme there?

Look I've got nothing against Todd and have been a customer (and would be again), but I don't like when someone deletes any talk of the competition. If you are better than the competition you don't need that to compete.

[bad Chad]

Yeah, what Kev said, even though he is mostly wrong on everything else he utters.   

[Kev m]

Yeah, what Kev said, even though he is mostly wrong on everything else he utters.   

Even a broken clock... [emoji56]

[bad Chad]

Back to TN Marks claims.

I went hunting at Victoryforums.com.   First cycleworld published 2016 dyno  numbers are 83rhp, not 62!   If you're starting at 83 getting to 110 is a hell of a lot easier than starting at 87 and getting you 140.    i have no clue where you got your 62 number from.

[rocker59]

:facepalm

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[LBC Tenni]

Uh, is that a real statement?

Uh, it was a segue to my point in my second sentence, that he�s earned his bad reputation on every forum but his own. 

[Kiwi Dave]

I boought a tweaked Cali 1400 Custom from Todd a few years ago.  It performs as I expected it would.  Power is not outrageous, but a significant improvement on stock (which is also shown on the dyno readings).






This increase in power was achieved with airbox and exhaust modifications, plus a tweaked ECU with a power commander and autotune.  There are those who poo-poo power commanders, but they are simply another tool for altering the ECU behaviour and can be manipulated in real time.

I'm simply not interested in his later offerings.

[Dilliw]

Uh, is that a real statement?

That's because anything NON-GT is banned from the GT forum (i.e. he deletes it) so how could it become a recurring theme there?

Look I've got nothing against Todd and have been a customer (and would be again), but I don't like when someone deletes any talk of the competition. If you are better than the competition you don't need that to compete.

Yep I'm glad to have Todd's offerings out there and his  "no crack" H Pipe ended what was an almost annual trip to the welding shop. I like his forums too, I just know that they have a decided bias to GT products.


 

[TobinH]

...
But I don’t understand why a Tonti frame is used. Registration / title reasons? Are those supposed to be original frames? I’m not convinced that a Tonti frame is the way to go for a chassis for a 140 hp bike (rather the opposite, in fact), but other people should know much more about that than I do.

...

I believe it's a custom frame inspired by Tonti geo.  On the GuzziTech forum, there are several pictures of the frame being welded together.

[Kev m]

Uh, it was a segue to my point in my second sentence, that he�s earned his bad reputation on every forum but his own. 

Oh, sorry... Posting distracted again, my bad

[TN Mark]

Back to TN Marks claims.

I went hunting at Victoryforums.com.   First cycleworld published 2016 dyno  numbers are 83rhp, not 62!   If you're starting at 83 getting to 110 is a hell of a lot easier than starting at 87 and getting you 140.    i have no clue where you got your 62 number from.

Chad,  You're quoting peak numbers on a stock Victory 106 at 5500rpm. The numbers I posted were at 3000rpm with the 'low hanging fruit' additions. There are hundreds, perhaps thousands between Victoryforums, thevog and the Victory fb pages who have a similar dyno graph with the numbers I posted. I�ll gladly email you a pdf of the graph from The Vic Shop showing a bone stock CCT verses one with a Lloyds VM1-DR cam, slip ons, Lloyds timing wheel set at +4, a Lloyds air cleaner, PCV and a dyno tune. It's not my exact dyno graph but one that Rylan Vos emailed me on Tuesday of last week. My exact stock v low hanging fruit graph was done back in the Summer of 2013 and Rylan no longer has that dyno graph in his system. Rylan Vos owns The Vic Shop and he's one of the nicest guys and best technicians/tuners available, anywhere. He's one of the top 3 Victory tuners in North America, Lloyd Greer (Lloydz) and Kevin Cross being the other top 3. I initially went to The Vic Shop because they're in Iowa and it was an easy ride out on a Sunday after church for a 'tune up' on Monday morning and a very nice ride back home to Chicago that afternoon.

Like I told you a few years ago, I�m a customer of The Vic Shop and the improvements are real,  incredible and it's like a whole new and improved motorcycle. I just had a second dyno tune from Lloydz (Charlotte Indian). Go to VictoryForums and look at Nip & Tuck in the Cross bike section. I�m Chattanooga Mark over their.

Many people use advertised (Marketing) numbers, at the crank, peak and actual dyno verified rear wheel numbers interchangeably. Remember, I posted gains at 3000rpm, not peak. Gains in peak numbers from stock verses the low hanging fruit are about +15-20 Hp and +10-15 Ft/Lbs Trq. Those by themselves are a very nice gain for the money spent. But it's where the low hanging fruit adds power on the Victory 106 that matters most. It's right in the most used rpm range, 2500 to 5000. The +4 timing adds 7 to 8 ft/lbs of torque under 2500 rpm. The cams come on about 2900 and stay till about 5000.

The reason I don't care too much about the numbers at 5500 or 6000 (with a PCV) is because a Victory Cross Country Tour very seldom uses that rpm range. At 80mph in 6th gear the 106 is spinning at 3000 rpm and at 100 mph it spinning at 4000 rpm. The bike bike really doesn't want to pull much over 115 mph as at that point it's simply pushing too much air. The steel frame Victory's are a much different story in that those bikes can use the higher rpm ranges much more often than the Cross bikes can. Shifting at 5000 rpm is a whole lot different from cruising down the road at 5000 rpm.

-50% felt engine/exhaust heat on a CCT? YES SIR, most assuredly! I got +3 mpg with my original dyno tune at about 11K miles. With my latest nip & tuck tune at 61K miles, it's now a bit over +4 mpg from bone stock.

Imagine that, an engine tuned using aftermarket parts and expertise that adds a LOT of usable power, reduces engine/exhaust heat and improves fuel economy. Yes Polaris designers made a very easy and straightforward path between parts and the the fuel map they were mandated to use and what the motor is easily capable of. Lloyds and The Vic Shop have both made completely streetable 106 engines putting out over 200 rwhp and 245 ft/lbs Trq. Yes, forced induction is needed to do that as are stronger rods and a beefier clutch. Other than that, the rest of the drivetrain is up to the task. Josh Baird, the Lloyds tuner at Charlotte Indian told me he was unable to even break the drive belt with his 300Hp 106 engine.

Like the Victory 106, I fully suspect the Guzzi 1400 is also capable of nice improvements in power by making the same changes. The dyno graph posted above proves this out. Add cams to the Guzzi 1400 and it's likely even better. Again, the peak numbers at max rpm isn't all that needs to be looked at. Consider the gains made in the meat of the engine rpm range. That's a lot more usable than the higher peak numbers.

So, PM me your email address and I'll send you the dyno graph when I get home.

Anyway, back to the GTM01 - I wish the builder(s) all the success in the world as I love just about everything about it. If I had the disposable income I'd certainly buy one. I'm also anxious to see what GTM02 looks like.

[groundhog105]

Just my opinion, but I have a 1400 with Todd’s tuning and it performs just as he promised.  As for his custom 1400 offering I know that these motors have been built from the bottom up with custom cams so let’s just wait and see how it tests out.  One of the magazines is supposed to be lined up to test his first bike.  I know a lot of time, money and testing has gone into this first bike and if you were to see it in person you would drool at the quality and custom touches in this build.   I can’t afford one but I can sure appreciate what Todd has built.   Todd is a great resource for many of us in So Cal. His mating of the Carc swingarm to the Tonti frame is beautiful and a beefy.