Author Topic: 1977 850-T3 CLUTCH  (Read 775 times)

Online n3303j

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1977 850-T3 CLUTCH
« on: September 14, 2018, 11:15:20 PM »
Been riding this critter for about 90K miles so far. It's my favorite ever bike.

....except every 30K miles the clutch starts dragging when slipping in stop & go traffic. Neutral sometimes is impossible when idling at stops and sometimes there is enough drag to stall the engine.

My usual solution was pull the engine. Clean everything. Replace the notched input splines and once the flywheel.

I'm getting pretty tired of doing this every couple of years!

Is there an easier solution? Better parts? Different parts? I've heard of flushing the housing while engine is running but that sounded dangerous (naphtha was recommended flammable solvent).

If not, then she becomes parts & pieces yet again...
'98 MG V11 EV
'96 URAL SPORTSMAN
'77 MG 850T3 FB

Offline pete roper

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Re: 1977 850-T3 CLUTCH
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2018, 11:37:14 PM »
Balance the carburettors carefully and regularly, don't set the idle too low, (1100 is fine.) and don't sit at the lights in gear with the clutch engaged.


Offline Huzo

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Re: 1977 850-T3 CLUTCH
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2018, 11:55:06 PM »
Balance the carburettors carefully and regularly, don't set the idle too low, (1100 is fine.) and don't sit at the lights in gear with the clutch engaged.
I wouldn't ask out of cussedness Pete but I'm interested to know what your take is on the correlation between carby balance and dragging clutch.
I know there'll be a reason but I cannot get close to ascertaining what it might be.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2018, 11:55:49 PM by Huzo »

Offline pete roper

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Re: 1977 850-T3 CLUTCH
« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2018, 12:02:58 AM »
Out of balance carbs, (Or TB's) lead to an increase in the unevenness of the power pulses and therefore the acceleration and deceleration of the flywheel. That effect is also more pronounced the lower the idle speed. When the clutch is engaged that leads to the teeth of the plates knocking back and forward with greater force and speeds up damage to both plate splines and those in the boss and flywheel.


Offline Huzo

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Re: 1977 850-T3 CLUTCH
« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2018, 12:06:56 AM »
Out of balance carbs, (Or TB's) lead to an increase in the unevenness of the power pulses and therefore the acceleration and deceleration of the flywheel. That effect is also more pronounced the lower the idle speed. When the clutch is engaged that leads to the teeth of the plates knocking back and forward with greater force and speeds up damage to both plate splines and those in the boss and flywheel.
Yep.. I knew it would make sense.
Wouldn'ta twigged to it though..

Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: 1977 850-T3 CLUTCH
« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2018, 07:53:09 AM »
Wat Pete sez. Never hold the clutch lever in for more than a few seconds. That's just one of the things you need to know about Guzzis.
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal

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Offline zenand

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Re: 1977 850-T3 CLUTCH
« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2018, 08:00:45 AM »
I'm going to throw in my two cents worth here, every older guzzi I have owned leaked a little gearbox oil down the clutch pushrod and contaminated the clutch causing the same problem. often times the leak wasn't so bad it left puddles under the bike. The six little o-ring conversion for the pushrod seal from Moto-International should be done on every guzzi .

Online John A

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Re: 1977 850-T3 CLUTCH
« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2018, 08:15:00 AM »
Don't lug it, keep the rpm above about 4K.
Whip up a fixture to check and fix alignment between engine and gearbox. Suspect this if it chews up clutches https://postimg.cc/image/5uk465lff/
« Last Edit: September 15, 2018, 08:35:46 AM by John A »
John
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Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: 1977 850-T3 CLUTCH
« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2018, 10:16:30 AM »
Don't lug it, keep the rpm above about 4K.
Whip up a fixture to check and fix alignment between engine and gearbox. Suspect this if it chews up clutches https://postimg.cc/image/5uk465lff/

Ewww, I downloaded the picture, and it's not legible. Can you post it some other way?
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal

02 Scura RC
87 AeroLario
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95 Skorpion tour
Thanks to two wings..
"All a man can ask is to have good friends and to pee with velocity...."

Online John A

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Re: 1977 850-T3 CLUTCH
« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2018, 11:16:08 AM »
Ewww, I downloaded the picture, and it's not legible. Can you post it some other way?


I have the same problem, it was posted the last time this topic rolled around and I just went back and found it to repost. Im hoping one of our smarter IT guys could fix it so we could make a paper copy. :embarrassed:
John
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If you know something I really don't know, it will challenge something I presume

Online John A

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Re: 1977 850-T3 CLUTCH
« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2018, 03:26:30 PM »
Thanks Charlie!
John
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Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: 1977 850-T3 CLUTCH
« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2018, 04:30:37 PM »
Until someone comes up with something better , I just took a picture with my stupid sell fone.. screen shot didn't work for me.
2018-09-15_05-27-00 by Charles Stottlemyer, on Flickr
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal

02 Scura RC
87 AeroLario
79 G5
95 Skorpion tour
Thanks to two wings..
"All a man can ask is to have good friends and to pee with velocity...."

Offline Fnq1000

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Re: 1977 850-T3 CLUTCH
« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2018, 07:46:53 PM »
Hi
I sometimes get this happen to me. Have you tweaked the adjuster under the bike?

I find it is easiest to lie along the gear change (L/H) side and it is above the centre stand cross-over.
A bit of a fiddle to get access - open ended spanner and I made up a notched 'tool' to adjust. It's a bit like adjusting tappets.

Takes all of two minutes and nothing to lose if it is not your problem.

Cheers
Jason

Online n3303j

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Re: 1977 850-T3 CLUTCH
« Reply #13 on: September 16, 2018, 06:59:53 AM »
I was kind of hoping someone would say they had the wearing parts cryogenically heat treated to reduce wear. Or maybe there was another source for alternate parts that were more durable. Or maybe even a single disk option that retained the characteristics of the stock setup.

I do idle up around 1.1K and sync relatively often. Happy cruising between 4K & 5K. It's a sweet spot.

My '66 BMW /2 went 100,000 miles with no clutch issues whatsoever. My V11 has 57,000 and no problems. Heck my Ural has 80,000 KM and no clutch issues and that's an RPOC.
'98 MG V11 EV
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'77 MG 850T3 FB

Online John A

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Re: 1977 850-T3 CLUTCH
« Reply #14 on: September 16, 2018, 07:10:36 AM »
You could put in a ten spring out of a Sport or LeMans. I use one with Barnett springs on a heavy sidecar Bassa. If it's out of alignment, even that will be a waste of time.
John
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Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: 1977 850-T3 CLUTCH
« Reply #15 on: September 16, 2018, 10:55:34 AM »

I have the same problem, it was posted the last time this topic rolled around and I just went back and found it to repost. Im hoping one of our smarter IT guys could fix it so we could make a paper copy. :embarrassed:

Paging Unkept. Mr. Unkept to the courtesey phone, please..  :smiley:
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal

02 Scura RC
87 AeroLario
79 G5
95 Skorpion tour
Thanks to two wings..
"All a man can ask is to have good friends and to pee with velocity...."

Online Unkept

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Re: 1977 850-T3 CLUTCH
« Reply #16 on: September 16, 2018, 05:04:51 PM »
Paging Unkept. Mr. Unkept to the courtesey phone, please..  :smiley:





Converted to JPEG, does that help?

Can't seem to read the small text in the source image.

I'm in St Louis with just my cellphone and no computer... Hope this was what you were looking for.


Here's the direct download. https://image.ibb.co/hAwYhK/guzzi_alignment_tool.jpg
« Last Edit: September 16, 2018, 05:11:37 PM by Unkept »
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Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: 1977 850-T3 CLUTCH
« Reply #17 on: September 16, 2018, 05:32:31 PM »
Well, almost. All the dimensions aren't there.  :grin:
Thanks, though..
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal

02 Scura RC
87 AeroLario
79 G5
95 Skorpion tour
Thanks to two wings..
"All a man can ask is to have good friends and to pee with velocity...."

Online n3303j

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Re: 1977 850-T3 CLUTCH
« Reply #18 on: September 18, 2018, 07:52:36 AM »
Well, almost. All the dimensions aren't there.  :grin:
Thanks, though..
I see all the dimensions. I don't see any tolerances.
I'm not sure how this gauge is used??
'98 MG V11 EV
'96 URAL SPORTSMAN
'77 MG 850T3 FB

Online acogoff

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Re: 1977 850-T3 CLUTCH
« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2018, 09:19:51 AM »
I see all the dimensions. I don't see any tolerances.
I'm not sure how this gauge is used??
   I also have been looking at this with interest and for the life of me can not figure out how it is used. Would not the thing be buried by the bell housing so you can't see what is going on? Got to be something simple that is beyond my normally foggy thinking.
'77850t3FB Owned since it was new
Marshall County Minnesota USA

Online Antietam Classic Cycle

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Re: 1977 850-T3 CLUTCH
« Reply #20 on: September 18, 2018, 09:30:45 AM »
   I also have been looking at this with interest and for the life of me can not figure out how it is used. Would not the thing be buried by the bell housing so you can't see what is going on? Got to be something simple that is beyond my normally foggy thinking.

It's basically a "go/no go" fixture - it's bolted to the crankshaft, and the transmission is then fitted to the engine. If the alignment is off, then the clutch hub won't fit into the fixture. More information and an alternative here:
http://thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_loopframe_alignment.html
I like Greg's method better.
Charlie
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Online John A

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Re: 1977 850-T3 CLUTCH
« Reply #21 on: September 18, 2018, 10:36:41 AM »
Bob told me that to use his fixture, you pull the alignment dowels and slip the transmission onto the fixture and engine, then fabricate offset dowels to position the transmission in that position. I like Gregs method too, but what t did was take a scrap flywheel and weld a block to it, then accurately bore a hole in that for a slip fit onto the outside of the transmission input. Then it's sturdy enough for some monkey motion getting the dowels indexed.
John
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Online acogoff

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Re: 1977 850-T3 CLUTCH
« Reply #22 on: September 18, 2018, 10:47:19 AM »
     Thanks guys for "how too use" explanation.  :thumb:
'77850t3FB Owned since it was new
Marshall County Minnesota USA

Offline Furbo

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Re: 1977 850-T3 CLUTCH
« Reply #23 on: September 19, 2018, 08:27:13 AM »
If you've not done so already, convert the clutch to a deep spline set up off of the later Tonti bikes (mid 90's I believe). The MI Oring set up previously mentioned will help as well.
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