Ignition Amplifier for points

[wirespokes]

I've got an 85 LM with points ignition and considering options. One of them is using an amplifier since I've got a few on the shelf. I haven't seen any write-ups about this, not even in Guzziology. It seems I'd have to use two amps, but don't want to due to space required. Is it possible to run a single dual-output coil with an ignition amp running a wasted spark ignition?

[Kiwi_Roy]

I was talking with a mechanic who used to work on old loops back when they were new, he was telling me they sometimes used a double ended coil without a distributor apparently Lost Spark worked quite well in spite of the 270° firing.

I'm not familiar with the points setup on the LeMans but it must be something similar to the California II surely.
With modern Mosfet transistors to amplify the points should be quite simple.

[guzzisteve]

I think Cliff in AU makes such a thing. Can't be sure but here's info on contact  http://www.cajinnovations.com/MyECU/

[bmc5733946]

Wasted spark on Guzzis is not advisable, ask Pete Roper about it. I think the problem bike had a Lucas Rita ignition, backfired through carb, lost entire bike in ensuing fire.

Brian

[yogidozer]

Are you having trouble with the current ignition? What do you hope to gain?  Just curious

[Kiwi_Roy]

Wasted spark on Guzzis is not advisable, ask Pete Roper about it. I think the problem bike had a Lucas Rita ignition, backfired through carb, lost entire bike in ensuing fire.

Brian

Yes I tried to figure out where the opposite cylinder happens to be with 270° of shift but it made my head hurt so I gave up LOL

[bigbikerrick]

I also have an 85 leMans that I put a dyna III ignition in, and am very happy with it. I also have one in my Cal II, and it has been great.
 
 I would rather carry a spare dyna black box and pickup sensor in my tank bag, if leaving on a long trip "just in case" than to dick around with the wretched dual point distributor on those bikes, and trying to get both cylinders properly timed.

Rick.

[yogidozer]

I also have an 85 leMans that I put a dyna III ignition in, and am very happy with it. I also have one in my Cal II, and it has been great.
 
 I would rather carry a spare dyna black box and pickup sensor in my tank bag, if leaving on a long trip "just in case" than to dick around with the wretched dual point distributor on those bikes, and trying to get both cylinders properly timed.

Rick.

I use a Dyna on one of my other bikes, not a MG, never had a problem with it. But I'm old school, very comfortable with a points ign. Keep spare points & condenser with you, you won't get stuck.

[Ronkom]

Decades ago when I first restored my Eldo, I installed a booster (I think it was marketed by Dyna). It's still on the bike & it has always started right NOW on the first couple cranks. Back in the day loop riders would have the starter cranking & working the throttle like crazy to get them fired up, which  is why I opted for the booster.
ronkom

[sign216]

I think Cliff in AU makes such a thing. Can't be sure but here's info on contact  http://www.cajinnovations.com/MyECU/

I run Cliff's programmable ECU in my V7 and it's great, but it's completely different than the ignition amplifier that the orig poster is talking about.

And ... I just built a Velleman transistor ignition unit for my 350cc Wards Riverside/Benelli single  https://www.vellemanusa.com/products/view/?id=350487&country=us&lang=enu.  It really helped out the running!  Took some troubleshooting though.  I recommend it if you have the free time to get it set up.  I've got several threads running on electronic forum if you want to read up on it  https://www.electro-tech-online.com/threads/modify-velleman-kit-transistor-assisited-ignition-kit-no-k2543.149878/

Wirespokes, what kind of ignition amplifers do you have "on the shelf?"  They are hard to find now.

Joe

Joe

[wirespokes]

Ok - here's the story...

A couple years ago the 87 LM snuck into the garage. I never would have invited her in on her looks - I'm kind of a snob that way. Now it's too late and I've fallen in love, but still trying to bring out that inner beauty. Problem is, she's in really nice shape and hated to put her under the knife.

When MGMark decided not to sell his 85LM (made over to look like a 1000S) (I was going to buy it from him), I found another 85 in sad shape to mimic what he'd done. The 85 was parked in 91 with no mods whatsoever, still running points, even the original air box.

The 87 has a Dyna and has been perfectly reliable the 10K I've had it. Some of my airheads also have Dynas, and only one died and left me stranded (four blocks from home) as I recall.

So I'm starting out from scratch with the 85. I've got a couple Dyna ignition amps and some larger ones that may also be Dynas - or something else. Been a while since I've seen them. I'm hoping I don't have to install two amps to make this work. The nice thing about an ignition amp is the points don't wear since the amp carries the load.

Joe - I'd been thinking about the Velleman kits - thanks for the link. I'll check it out.

Ronkom - The loops are a little different in that the distributor actually distributes the spark like cars. I'm trying to figure out how to make a booster work with two separate coils. With the airheads it's simple since there's no distributor and the wasted spark system. I don't think I want to try wasted spark if there's a possibility of torching the bike.

guzzisteve - thanks! I'll check on Cliff and see what he's got.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Back in the day loop riders would have the starter cranking & working the throttle like crazy to get them fired up, which  is why I opted for the booster.
ronkom

This always puzzled me. My '69 Ambo has always fired up without any drama, hot or cold. Still running stock ignition other than a Bosch Blue Coil.

I would rather carry a spare dyna black box and pickup sensor in my tank bag, if leaving on a long trip "just in case" than to dick around with the wretched dual point distributor on those bikes, and trying to get both cylinders properly timed.

I would rather "dick around" with the points than have my Guzzi turn into a 475 cc single with air compressor attached. Been there, done that after the Dyna partially failed on my Le Mans 1000. Fifty miles on one cylinder was no fun...

When I "refurbished" my Convert back in April of '17 I gapped the points, set the timing (no modification of the points plates necessary) and greased the cam of the distributor with a little Bosch Distributor Grease. Checked the point gap and timing just before I went to WNY this year (10k miles later) and it was still exactly where I set it. So, if I only have to fiddle with the point gap and timing once every few years, I see no need for an e.i. system. 

[Groover]

Isn't the function of the condenser in a points system for this (accumulate charge, dump it when needed) - would the amplifier come before the condenser, there to make the accumulated charge higher? I'm learning, so I may have dumb questions until in sinks-in..

[Lesman]

Have you looked at the HEI(GM coil) or A Ford coil setup with points? It's a similar setup as the put together transistorized setup (I think). I was going to do this setup until I went on another path. Revival sells a really expensive setup(C5?) for loops.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

I must say that I am interested in this: http://www.c5ignitions.com/c5-alive-coil.html

[yogidozer]

This always puzzled me. My '69 Ambo has always fired up without any drama, hot or cold. Still running stock ignition other than a Bosch Blue Coil.

I would rather "dick around" with the points than have my Guzzi turn into a 475 cc single with air compressor attached. Been there, done that after the Dyna partially failed on my Le Mans 1000. Fifty miles on one cylinder was no fun...

When I "refurbished" my Convert back in April of '17 I gapped the points, set the timing (no modification of the points plates necessary) and greased the cam of the distributor with a little Bosch Distributor Grease. Checked the point gap and timing just before I went to WNY this year (10k miles later) and it was still exactly where I set it. So, if I only have to fiddle with the point gap and timing once every few years, I see no need for an e.i. system. 

yup, same here.

[bigbikerrick]

That C5 "Alive coil" looks interesting !
I dont really have an issue with the points on the Eldorado, the distributor is easy to get to, and service when needed.
Its the dual point distributor on the tonti bikes that are more of a PITA for me to deal with for me.
Rick.

[sign216]

Isn't the function of the condenser in a points system for this (accumulate charge, dump it when needed) - would the amplifier come before the condenser, there to make the accumulated charge higher? I'm learning, so I may have dumb questions until in sinks-in..

Groover,

With a transistorized ignition unit the condenser is eliminated.   The transistor ignition markedly improves idle performance on my Wards/Benelli 350 single, but I haven't noticed any top end gain.  It could be other factors are limiting the top end.  With a 1965 single cyl, there could a multitude of top end limits. 

The trans unit should make the points last a very long time, since they're carrying only a signal current, instead of the full ignition current.  I think the unit should give a stronger ignition spark too, since the transistor is now the "switch" replacing the points in collapsing the elec. field in the coil.  The sudden collapse of the field in the coil, is what generates the ignition spark.  Since the transistor is a much faster switch than the mechanical points, the field collapse is sharper, giving a greater spark.

Joe

[sign216]

That C5 "Alive coil" looks interesting !
I dont really have an issue with the points on the Eldorado, the distributor is easy to get to, and service when needed.
Its the dual point distributor on the tonti bikes that are more of a PITA for me to deal with for me.
Rick.

The C5 Alive at first inspection, just appears to be a transistorized ignition unit, a common add-on when points were standard.   Look at my earlier post for the Velleman transistor ignition kit.  I think the Velleman (and the C5) may be the only transistor ignition kits still sold. 

Joe

[wirespokes]

I think you might be right about the C5 "Alive Coil", Joe. By the way, I just read through your complete thread on the Velleman Transistor Amp. A year's gap in the thread left out how you eventually configured the system?

Groover - with a Booster (ignition amplifier) the points act only as a switch carrying only a small amount of current. With the un-boosted system, the points carry the full amperage to the coils, and that's what causes their demise - arcing.

So, with an amp, the points only tell the amp when to deliver current to the coil. No capacitor (condenser) needed since its purpose is to eliminate arcing, which will be non existent with the minimal current now needed.

I've just set the points on this 'new' bike and it wasn't difficult. We'll see if I did it right once I try firing it up, but even if I did it wrong, I can't imagine it being a big deal. They're easy to get at, especially with that big honkin airbox removed. So - Charlie and Yogi - you're saying the points don't change in 10K??? If that's normal, I don't see an urgent reason to modify anything right now.

[sign216]

I think you might be right about the C5 "Alive Coil", Joe. By the way, I just read through your complete thread on the Velleman Transistor Amp. A year's gap in the thread left out how you eventually configured the system?

Spokes,

I can't believe you read through the whole thread on the electronics forum.  8 pages!!! 

I built the system just as the Velleman instructions said.  I added a metal enclosure, which cause an grounding problem until I fully insulated the unit inside.  I had one or two other construction mods to make it more rugged, and changed some resistors to make the unit work for a 6 volt bike.  If you get the kit let me know and I'll give you more details.

As for hooking it up, it went just the instructions said.  There's a Velleman forum that I searched, it gave me more details to help with construction and bench testing it.  Also, there are two (or more) different instruction sheets, probably from different decades (these kits have been sold forever).  The different sheets give slightly diff details. 

Joe

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

So - Charlie and Yogi - you're saying the points don't change in 10K??? If that's normal, I don't see an urgent reason to modify anything right now.

Yes, the gap on my (original Marelli) points and ignition timing didn't change at all in 10k miles. New (Facet) condensers, original coils. The o.e Marelli points are higher quality than any others I've looked at. I'm a huge proponent of using Bosch Distributor Grease on the cam. YMMV if you use other brand of points and cam lube.

[Furbo]

I've kinda made peace with the dual point dizzy. My last Tonti was a mid 90's med valve SPIII. Had a Motoplatt ign that failed shortly after I got it. I had a G5 dizzy in the parts bin so stuck that on and never looked back. I adjusted it annually at the same time I did the valve clearances...genera lly with bourbon in the dead of winter.

My method was to not mess with static timing, but simply set the points gap, then time the engine dynamically AT FULL ADVANCE - not idle - there's too much slop at idle. I balanced the carbs at about 4K rpm as well.

[Groover]

Ok, I understand now. Thanks!

[Kiwi_Roy]

Isn't the function of the condenser in a points system for this (accumulate charge, dump it when needed) - would the amplifier come before the condenser, there to make the accumulated charge higher? I'm learning, so I may have dumb questions until in sinks-in..

Sort of, some guys maintain its there to prevent the points sparking but I believe its there to resonate with the coil. As the field in the coil collapses it generates a high Voltage spike that charges up the condenser which then discharges back into the coil, it sort of rings back and forth creating a fatter spark (actually many sparks one after another).
Look at the diagram Sign216 posted, it has the condenser as well C1.
I think the coils that don't require a condenser must have something different about the magnetic circuit that eliminates the need.

[sign216]

Sort of, some guys maintain its there to prevent the points sparking but I believe its there to resonate with the coil. As the field in the coil collapses it generates a high Voltage spike that charges up the condenser which then discharges back into the coil, it sort of rings back and forth creating a fatter spark (actually many sparks one after another).
Look at the diagram Sign216 posted, it has the condenser as well C1.
I think the coils that don't require a condenser must have something different about the magnetic circuit that eliminates the need.

Kiwi,

I heard the same thing; that the condenser limited arcing across the points, and also resonated with the ignition current to produce a better spark.

One old mechanic said that when he was doing tune-ups he had a box of condensers, and would swap them in-out until he found the one that gave the best spark at the plug.

Joe

[wirespokes]

I've also heard that about the condenser. Along that same vein, I used to think the plug cap resistance was only for noise suppression. (radios) Ran my airhead with zero resistance plugs, or caps, and it seemed to run fine. Found out later that the resistance is needed for the best spark, but also helps the coil, and in the case of any electronics it helps them too.

There's always a simple explanation for a much more complex situation. Same here.

sign216 - Yep, read the whole thread. Took a good part of the morning. So did you add a 1 ohm resistor to the coil? And the amp worked just fine with the .7 ohm coil?

So you left it 6V and didn't convert to 12V?

When I got this 85 LM some parts were missing - alternator cover, distributor cover and coils particularly. I figured the coils weren't a problem since I've got a bunch of airhead coils stashed, but as it turns out, airhead coils have a different rating. First off, they're six volt (not sure if that's a problem or not), but the big thing is they're either 1.4  or .8 ohms. Factoring in they're 6V being used on a 12V system essentially halves the resistance. So perhaps I could use the 1.4 ohm coils with a big 1ohm resistor. Or perhaps I should watch for some green Dyna Coils.

I've got some green Dynas, but they're dual output coils. I think if I use them, I'd have to ground the unused output. Am I right?

Seems like too much messing around - I'd prefer the right stuff. Funny how such a simple thing can turn so complex.

[guzziart]

FWIW, my points need adjustment every 5-7k, maybe i'm using the wrong grease??!!  I replaced the condensers 12K ago when I re-shimmed the distributor but still run the original coils.  I put the coils on a relay vs. factory kill switch set-up and have no problems nor voltage drop to coils.     

[wirespokes]

guzziart - How do the points look when you adjust them? Is it the gap closing up, but the points look fine?

As I recall, six volt coils can be used on a 12 volt system. It seems there was a discussion about this at one time somewhere. Even if there was a difference (6V parts have heavier wire) which everyone figured wasn't the case, that wouldn't be a problem with a 6V coil in a 12V system. And the resistance wouldn't change, it will be 1.4 ohm no matter what.

I'd figured the Guzzi and airhead systems should be similar and take the same coils, but they're not. The airhead, with wasted spark, runs the two coils in series: two 6V coils in series adds up to 12V, two 1.4 ohm coils add up to almost 3 ohms resistance. The Guzzi, on the other hand, runs two independent circuits - one for each cylinder. So the requirements are the same, but now one 12V coil is needed for each side with a resistance of at least 3 ohms (the originals are 3.5 ohms according to the manual).

Does anyone have a set of coils they'd like to sell?

I've found the ignition amps (boosters as Dyna calls them) - Dynas and Accels. The Accels are large things - probably one and a half times larger than the Dyna - but they're made for dual point ignitions. So it's possible I could run the 1.4 ohm coils with the Accel amp. Dynatek still sells the Boosters, but they're not cheap at something like $100.

[yogidozer]

FWIW, my points need adjustment every 5-7k, maybe i'm using the wrong grease??!!  I replaced the condensers 12K ago when I re-shimmed the distributor but still run the original coils.  I put the coils on a relay vs. factory kill switch set-up and have no problems nor voltage drop to coils.   

There is a special grease, also look at the cam that the points rubbing block rides on. Rust/dings?