Author Topic: Le Mans 1000 Starter Motor Pinion (Read 9343 times)

MikeW · « **on:** November 08, 2018, 01:35:44 PM »

Does anyone know if you can still get parts for early Bosch starter motors?

Mine needs a new pinion gear. The one on mine is badly worn and does not engage every time. Fortunately the ring gear looks fine.

I've had a look online but have only seen pinion gears for Valeo and 2006 onwards Bosch starters.

Mike

Kiwi_Roy · « **Reply #1 on:** November 08, 2018, 02:20:32 PM »

Pretty sure you will be able to
Here's just one site
https://www.obbstartersandalternators.com/advanced_topsearch_result.php
It may even be something you can pick up at an auto wrecker
Replace the bushes and brushes while you are in there.

rodekyll · « **Reply #2 on:** November 08, 2018, 02:59:49 PM »

Maybe look for it by bosch numbers rather than moto guzzi?

Antietam Classic Cycle · « **Reply #3 on:** November 08, 2018, 04:16:08 PM »

Quote from: rodekyll on November 08, 2018, 02:59:49 PM

Maybe look for it by bosch numbers rather than moto guzzi?

^^This. The part number for the "pinion" of the Bosch starter on a Loop is 2 006 209 156.

wirespokes · « **Reply #4 on:** November 08, 2018, 05:51:05 PM »

In the same vein - anyone know where I can get a nose for a Valeo D6RA 210? That's the most common starter from 74 to the 90s or even a little later.

LowRyter · « **Reply #5 on:** November 08, 2018, 06:53:43 PM »

maybe this will help

https://www.dbelectrical.com/products/moto-guzzi-starter-0307307110-30730710-30730711.html#app-list

Antietam Classic Cycle · « **Reply #6 on:** November 08, 2018, 07:29:35 PM »

Quote from: wirespokes on November 08, 2018, 05:51:05 PM

In the same vein - anyone know where I can get a nose for a Valeo D6RA 210? That's the most common starter from 74 to the 90s or even a little later.

Guzzi didn't start using the Valeo until '90 or so. Up until then it was Marelli, Bosch and (in some cases on small-blocks) Lucas. I have a used Valeo "nose" casting.

wirespokes · « **Reply #7 on:** November 08, 2018, 09:06:05 PM »

Charlie - that's super! I'm interested - send me a PM.

True - Guzzis had the Bosch starters and didn't get Valeos till the late 80s or 90s sometime. But you know what I mean - whether it's the Bosch or Valeo, it's the one that fits all Guzzis from 74 till the 90s sometime.

LowRyter - I did write DB electric and here's the response:

Unfortunately, we would not offer any type of nose cones. You may try a company called Electric Motor Services 800-697-6070.

I haven't called them yet, will tomorrow.

pressureangle · « **Reply #8 on:** November 08, 2018, 09:16:49 PM »

If it's just the tips of the teeth that have worn the engagement ramps off, you can carefully reface them with an appropriate grinding tool. Take care not to take so much at once as to turn them blue, and they'll last as long as they did the first time. I've done this with obsolete starters and ring gears on old cars and equipment for years.

Antietam Classic Cycle · « **Reply #9 on:** November 08, 2018, 09:26:13 PM »

Quote from: wirespokes on November 08, 2018, 09:06:05 PM

Charlie - that's super! I'm interested - send me a PM.

True - Guzzis had the Bosch starters and didn't get Valeos till the late 80s or 90s sometime. But you know what I mean - whether it's the Bosch or Valeo, it's the one that fits all Guzzis from 74 till the 90s sometime.

Okay, then I'm confused as to what "nose" you need. Bosch ('74 to '90, cast-iron) or Valeo ('90 >, cast aluminum). I don't have any Bosch to spare, only one Valeo.

Rolf Halvorsen · « **Reply #10 on:** November 09, 2018, 04:02:36 AM »

I have a used one that you can have for free.

It might be better than the one you have.

send me a PM if you are interested. (I can send you a picture of the teeth if you send me your mail address)

Rolf

wirespokes · « **Reply #11 on:** November 09, 2018, 10:04:02 AM »

Charlie - yes, it's the Valeo nose I need. Sorry for the confusion. I'll send you a PM.

Diploman · « **Reply #12 on:** November 09, 2018, 10:35:38 AM »

I purchased a "Valeo clone" starter (made in China, I believe) from DB Electrical to replace the OE Bosch starter on my V50II. With shipping, I paid a little over $70. The copycat starter has been impeccable over the past two years since the refreshed/modified V50II was put back on the road. It is not only considerably lighter weight than the Bosch, but also cranks the engine faster with its planetary drive, as opposed to the Bosch's direct drive.

I still have the Bosch starter, which was working fine before being taken off, if anyone is interested. PM me.

wirespokes · « **Reply #13 on:** November 09, 2018, 01:30:38 PM »

Thanks for that Diploman. I've wondered if the copies do as well as the real deal. Those clones look identical to the real thing except for the big ID sticker. And I totally agree - the Valeo is a win/win all around - lighter, uses less battery and cranks faster. They're also easy to work on. Years ago in the 90s I couldn't find parts for them and with the dropping magnets, didn't have nice things to say about them. But now parts are available, the magnet issue is history, so I don't bad mouth them any more. They're great starters.

The only negative I've heard is the grease cover for the planetary gears can come loose and short out the armature.

As for finding a nose at Electric Motor Services 800-697-6070, all they can get is the normal bits everyone else carries. No nose.

Luckily Charlie has the parts I need. Thanks Charlie!

pehayes · « **Reply #14 on:** November 10, 2018, 01:09:43 AM »

Can you post a pic of this suspect pinion damage? The teeth are supposed to be angled at the front to allow for easier thrust insertion into the ring gear. Maybe yours is not actually damaged.

Can you describe your symptoms further regarding the "...does not engage every time." It might only be issues with the pinion sliding on the starter shaft or perhaps an issue with the amount of thrust imparted by the starter solenoid itself. Let us hear more.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

MikeW · « **Reply #15 on:** November 10, 2018, 03:41:59 PM »

Most of the teeth on the pinion gear have developed a lip part way up which I think is causing the engagement problem. Re profiling may help and I'll give it a try before replacing the starter since replacement parts seem scarce.

Everything else seems fine. The solenoid is nice and strong. The operating lever that throws out the gear is in good condition as is the whole engagement mechanism.

Mike

wirespokes · « **Reply #16 on:** November 11, 2018, 05:09:35 PM »

I'd guess some of the airhead Bosch starter parts will interchange. The nose would obviously be different, and they rotate opposite directions, so other things like the bendix and magnet placement wouldn't work either. However, if the number of teeth on the gear match, I'd think they'd interchange. Those starters go really cheap used - sometimes guys even give them away.

BMW used two different drive gears - one was 8 tooth, the other more common was 9. If it's a 9 tooth, I might have one here.

MikeW · « **Reply #17 on:** November 12, 2018, 09:17:44 PM »

I carefully reprofiled the leading edge of the pinion gear as suggested and it worked a treat.

The bike now starts every time

Mike

wirespokes · « **Reply #18 on:** November 12, 2018, 11:09:12 PM »

Excellent!

The question now is how long it continues to work.

I wonder if it got damaged contacting the already spinning flywheel gear? Come to think of it, I'd never heard of the pinion gear wearing out like that, so it seems logical it didn't just happen, or was a faulty gear.

MikeW · « **Reply #19 on:** November 13, 2018, 01:27:22 AM »

The ridges and burrs were pretty easy to grind off so maybe it's a hardening issue. Time will tell I guess.

MikeW · « **Reply #20 on:** June 28, 2020, 03:17:15 AM »

Well,
I managed to get another year and a half of life out of the starter on my Le Mans 1000 but the fault has returned. Re-profiling the pinion gear worked for a awhile but now I think it's just too short to engage every time. Sometimes it takes up to eight attempts to get it to engage. Other days it takes only one or two.

I had a look for parts for the Bosch but no one has pinion gears anymore. So it looks like I'm buying a new starter. I see that there are a bunch of what look like Chinese made starters on ebay. Are they any good?

Mike

Chuck in Indiana · « **Reply #21 on:** June 28, 2020, 06:53:08 AM »

It's probably the same company that makes the OEM Guzzi starter. I have 2 of them, and they are fine so far.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0081SAT1I/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

pressureangle · « **Reply #22 on:** June 28, 2020, 07:35:04 AM »

Quote from: Chuck in Indiana on June 28, 2020, 06:53:08 AM

It's probably the same company that makes the OEM Guzzi starter. I have 2 of them, and they are fine so far.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0081SAT1I/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Since 'Buy American' can't even be a choice here, I'll have to admit that the Chinese have a very good record with starters. Starters, of all things they make, do not tolerate poor quality control. Hard to cover it up when it's a go/no-go device.

MikeW · « **Reply #23 on:** June 28, 2020, 09:38:39 PM »

Quote from: Chuck in Indiana on June 28, 2020, 06:53:08 AM

It's probably the same company that makes the OEM Guzzi starter. I have 2 of them, and they are fine so far.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0081SAT1I/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

That's certainly a good price...

I see that they are listed as suitable for some BMW as well as many Guzzi models. I always thought BMW starters were different to Guzzi ones?

Finally, should I be worried about the number of teeth? A couple of the comments from buyers say that the starter is 9 not 8 as advertised.

Mike

Kiwi_Roy · « **Reply #24 on:** June 29, 2020, 05:36:01 AM »

You don't give a year, I have no idea what a Lemans 1000 is
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/1976_LeMans_I.gif
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/1978_LeMans_II.gif
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/1981_LeMans_III.gif
The one thing they all have in common is the dodgy starter wiring, are you sure Startus Interuptus is not the root cause of your pinion problem as in not properly engaged before the starter starts to spin?
In all cases the relay coil should be fed from the switched fuse but the contact of the relay should come straight from the battery via a 20 Amp fuse and #16 wire, you will be able to hear the difference.

wirespokes · « **Reply #25 on:** June 29, 2020, 05:53:00 AM »

The LM1000 (LM4 and 5) runs from 85-94. The 4 and 5 are pretty much the same except for bodywork. The 85-7 came with a 16" front wheel, and that was the major difference. Lesser changes were black exhaust or chrome - but other than that they were pretty much the same. And when it comes to starters, the early ones came with the Bosch and at some point the Valeos took over. I believe there's one Valeo that fits all Guzzis from 74 to somewhere after the turn of the century.

As for the Valeo fitting both the BMW and Guzzi - I don't know. I've seen that in some of the specs on ebay but can't say if it's a mistake or not. The Guzzi valeo definitely won't work on an airhead - for two reasons - opposite rotation and different mounting nose. The BMW oilheads moved the starter to the Guzzi position so they rotated the same direction, but no idea if they'll interchange. Maybe? Knowing BMW, I'd guess they made the mounting different.

Kiwi_Roy · « **Reply #26 on:** June 29, 2020, 08:50:43 AM »

Same silly wiring, the solenoid wants 50 Amps as it pulls the gear into mesh, its getting 30 on a good day
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/1990_LM_V.gif

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Author Topic: Le Mans 1000 Starter Motor Pinion (Read 9343 times)