V85 Street Bike ?

[Kev m]

I'd buy a new one IF the small blocks were more on par with Triumph Bonneville's, Ducati Monsters, Yamaha F-07's, BMW F800's.  MG are priced in their league, now back it up with comparable specs and performance.

But everything you just mentioned is apples and oranges in terms of motor (water cooling and OHC or Desmo). Hell only the Bonnie even has the styling of the smallblocks.

That said I'd still take a V7 over a Bonnie Street Twin---though we might add the latter to the fleet.

As for Duc comparisons, at least mention the Scrambler which still out-powers the smallblock but since we have basically the same motor in our older Monster I can truthfully tell you I would still take a V7 over it.

[twowheeladdict]

My $.02.  I'm a Guzzi lover, owned three: 2 V50's and a Breva 1100.

When it comes to styling you cannot beat the shape of the V7 Tank and for the most part the overall look.  I just can't deal with 49 H.P. in a 750 cc bike.  So when the V9's came out I got excited a bit more power, but the styling went out with the babies dirty diapers.

Now we have a V85 with the right power in an adventure style - I like.  So where is the sin to just put the V85 engine in the V7 or tweak the V7 Power, add a mono shock .  The 850 engine is not new MG had them for many ears in Europe.

I'd buy a new one IF the small blocks were more on par with Triumph Bonneville's, Ducati Monsters, Yamaha F-07's, BMW F800's.  MG are priced in their league, now back it up with comparable specs and performance.

The V7 wouldn't be the same bike if they made all the changes you suggest, and the changes needed to balance the bike to the additional power.  I say, build a new street bike that appeals to those who don't want a V7, but keep doing what they are doing with the V7 until it is no longer popular. 

[gentlemanjim]

Not challenging.  My point MG can bump up the power and Water cooling, OHC, Desmo won't be necessary  BMW did a fine job with the old airhead bikes.  I agree I'd take the V7 over those mentioned, just would like to see be more competitive in performance.  Just mike buyers of those other bikes take notice and buy.  Increased market demand will bring more dealer interest.  Heaven knows we need more dealers.

[bad Chad]

Just to be helpful the v7lll series are all rated at 52hp!

[Joliet Jim]

Just to be helpful the v7lll series are all rated at 52hp!

Right up there with my old 78 Bonneville

[Kev m]

Right up there with my old 78 Bonneville

Which wasn't nearly as restricted by emissions and couldn't even RUN without melting itself if you tried to get this power out of it AND get anywhere near EU III or IV emissions levels. Which makes the comparison useless.

[kingoffleece]

Couldn't agree more.

[blackcat]

Pete what I have trouble understanding is ebay listings like this https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Moto-Guzzi-1000S/153274844197 $18700 and possibly still climbing for this used stale bottle of inferior beer. I was not one of those that said they would buy one 30 years ago as I was a young bloke with a wife, kids and mortgage. I have always liked the look of them but for a price rapidly approaching 20 big ones I hope it has been well maintained as stated in its 81000 km's. I guess I will always like the look of these but at this price I will never be in a position to comment if they are as good as something like a Tooheys old or your description.

I have a 93-1000S with about 65,000 miles (104,600KM) on the clock, have owned it for over 20 years and have replaced the U-joint(only because of bad mechanic) the final drive seal and the Ducati voltage regulator. Did replace the front springs as the stock Bitubos aren't very good.  My 07 Norge (75,000 miles with little maintenance issues) is probably a better bike, but I much prefer riding the 1000S.

[acguzzi]

Why? The laws of physics haven't changed?

technology has been refined, better carburation, flow, material strength, injection, computer analysis and simulation. Same reason wheels are better and lighter. better pistons? lighter valve train? Better cam profiles?

[Kev m]

technology has been refined, better carburation, flow, material strength, injection, computer analysis and simulation. Same reason wheels are better and lighter. better pistons? lighter valve train? Better cam profiles?

Good point.

We can see one illustration in the new 2019 Bonnie Street Twin which just debuted as a revision to the previous generation.

According to Triumph's claims all they did was lighten some internal engine components (balancer shaft and maybe crank etc.) and without even different camshaft profiles they got another 10 crank how out of the thing at peak by spinning it faster.

[Joliet Jim]

Which wasn't nearly as restricted by emissions and couldn't even RUN without melting itself if you tried to get this power out of it AND get anywhere near EU III or IV emissions levels. Which makes the comparison useless.

Don't be dissing my old Bonnie  Harley-boy    and yes it did melt, but that's because the guy I sold it to had a garage fire that melted it, a Gold Wing, and something else.  Emissions, you're funny. plus I was just aiming that at Chad  As much fun as I had on that bike, similar weight and power would make the V7 a fun bike. I just think the tank is ugly.

[lucian]

Found this over on the lemans forum , interesting explanation on the power bump.


The secrets of the Moto Guzzi V85 engine Antonio Cappellini - responsible for the design of the Piaggio group - reveals the secrets of the two-cylinder Moto Guzzi V85. Titanium and maniacal valves seeking lightness to increase power and make the delivery smoother, as well as semi-dry crankcase lubrication At the last Motor Show in Milan, Moto Guzzi presented the prototype of the V85 endurona. In the last few months we interviewed Marco Lambri, the person in charge of the bike line, who told us some anecdotes about the birth of this bike. Now instead the word goes to Antonio Cappellini - number one of the design of the Piaggio group - that exclusively for Motociclismo unveils the secrets of the twin-cylinder Moto Guzzi V85. Off-road rider, amateur rider of motocross and husband of a motorcyclist who in his youth guided the Aspes Hopi (and who knows if he knows that the 125 Gallarate was a nice peperino!) Cappellini does not skimp information on the new engine dell'endurona. The secrets of the Moto Guzzi V85 engine A new Guzzi engine is always a highly anticipated event not only by the enthusiasts of the Mandello del Lario brand. Really this V of 90 ° is different from the two-cylinder that equip the custom V9 and the naked V7 III? "It derives from the V9 engine, but only in architecture and bore and stroke measurements; the analogy ends here and can be considered a whole new engine. And I explain why. Let's start by saying that the lubrication is a semi-dry crankcase and not a wet sump. We have two coaxial pumps instead of one; they are used for the delivery and to recover the lubricant. In the old V7 engine all the oil was sent to the top of the heads and less to other parts. Of course, so exposed to the air it cooled well and lowered the temperature of the hottest area, but it was not the best for general lubrication. We are so sure of the performance of this semi-dry system that we do not even have an oil cooler. With the semi-dry solution we also have a crank shaft crankcase completely insulated, avoiding the possible absorption of power deriving from an "open" solution where the piston must also overcome the back pressure inside the crankcases ". But how did you manage to increase the power up to 80 hp? The V9 has only 55. A nice step forward. "Everyone thinks that this engine has four valves per cylinder for this performance. Actually we only have two. It was a good undertaking to get 100 HP / liter from an air-cooled engine while maintaining the distribution to rods and rocker arms. However, we wanted to respect the classic technical architecture of Guzzi engines ". What is the secret to having these benefits? "Having a titanium intake valve. It weighs half of an analogous steel and this has allowed us to adopt a geometry of the opening of the valves much more radical. We still used only one intake manifold, but with a throttle body of 52 mm in diameter against 38 mm of that of the peaceful V9. In addition, the accelerator is ride-by-wire, while the other has a mechanical drive. With the electronic throttle control, engine management is facilitated and we can better manage the entire supply, starting with the various mappings and the traction control system. But we did not stop here in the technical review of the V9. Because the V85 has a new crankshaft, several stiffer connecting rods and even shorter-clad pistons. We have saved almost 30% of the weight of the embellishment. And this has allowed us to cut the vibrations drastically even at maximum speed ". The frame is completely different from those of the history of the twin-cylinder V7, so much so that the engine has become an element of stiffening of the entire structure. Did you have to intervene on the base? "Yes, the carter are all new, sturdier just to give greater rigidity because I wanted a frame that would allow you to enter the curve with the same precision and solidity of our Stelvio. And I told my engineers: 'As long as I do not feel the tread that rubs on the asphalt I'm not happy'. And touch, I assure you that it touches! We have also extended the swingarm to make the rear suspension work better and increase the driving precision on the fast ". The secrets of the Moto Guzzi V85 engine The V85 is born to confront with a fierce competition in the off-road sector, motorcycles that have brilliant engines ... "I assure you that this twin-cylinder will be quick and bright. We have a torque that expresses the maximum of its value of 80 Nm at only 3,400 rpm and its work curve is actually a straight line that remains so until the maximum of laps. Of course we can not compete with the twin-cylinder 1200, but we play with the competitors of equal displacement. We are there having a year around this engine and we have not finished yet, but we want to be sure to have a motor at the height of a great Guzzi. We could certainly build a liquid-cooled twin cylinder with four valves per cylinder - and we will do it - but we wanted to keep the image of a classic Guzzi at all costs ". Guzzi engines are recognized with their eyes closed not only for the sound to the exhaust, but also for that clock that accompanies the insertion of the gear. "You will not hear it anymore. Using a dry clutch, and ours is, when the first gear engages, the complete disengaging of the clutch allows the whole system of the primary transmission and the gearbox to turn quickly again. The clock that is heard derives from the engagement of the selector that collides with the fast rotation of the gears. With the friction in the oil bath everything is 'softer' and the noise is lower. But we worked hard to soften, even make this clock disappear and have more silent gearshifts than the six-speed gearbox. In addition we have put a damper on the output of the gearbox due to the increased power and to have an even 'softer' response to the final shaft transmission ". It has always been said that the ever more stringent anti-pollution regulations would not allow to keep the air-cooled engines ... "But this V85 is the proven proof that you can very well make a similar engine that passes the guillotine of emissions without problems. It was immediately OK for the Euro 4 and is already ready to adapt to the much more restrictive Euro 5. We will probably have to work hard on the catalysts, but with a power of 100 hp / liter there are no problems even with air cooling. And then this is an engine that consumes very little. If you think about it, it's a propeller that does not have too many components to absorb power. It has no cooling pump, it does not have long chains or distribution belts and the rod and rocker system is among the most parks in eating power ... And so we consume little ". Has it been studied to grow in displacement? "No. Not because it is not structured to accommodate a cubature even higher, but because it is born to have a balance between performance and lightness. And that's what we're looking for from a bike in this category ". Will it also be used for other models? "Yes: we are working on a road version that already today drives very, very well, and then on more ...".
https://www.google.c...llini-70088.amp
docc, nobleswood, footgoose and 2 others like this

[JohninVT]

I got as far as, “maniacal valves”....

[pete roper]

"In the old V7 all the oil was sent to the top of the heads and less to other parts." Oh my sainted aunt fanny!

And then there is all this waffle about pistons overcoming back pressure? One assumes he's banging on about combatting windage but who the hell knows?

Lighter valves? Yes, helpful! I would expect a considerable amount of that weight saving to be offset by the increased mass of the roller tappets. As for the cam profiles we won't know until someone graphs them.

Bigger throttle body is of course a major factor but not without its drawbacks. I wonder if they'll use a large plenum like the Cali 14? I still expect a quite high idle, 1500 rpm or higher.

I'm still guessing we'll see 63-65 real RWHP. If we get anything much more than that I'll be impressed.

Pete

[lucian]

  I thought that article might get your attention Pete. 

[pete roper]

Yeah, I'd seen it before. I'm sure some stuff was lost in translation but the vast majority of it is mindless blather.

[Kev m]

I'm still guessing we'll see 63-65 real RWHP. If we get anything much more than that I'll be impressed.

Pete

Wait, wtf don't we plan on like about a 15% loss from crank to rear wheel on a Guzzi shaft drive?!?

Cause 80 crank hp - 15% (12 HP) = 68 rwhp

Or within a few hp of your prediction.

And if that's the case, what the HolyMotherFruckinCr ap is with all the weeping, bitching, and gnashing of teeth?!?

Why in the love of gawd do you give a FlyingMotherCumFruk ThroughaRollingJell yDonut? Is the 3 hp or so give or take difference between claimed an actual a problem?!?

[pete roper]

Kev it makes ZERO difference to me what it's figures are. The PROBLEM as I see it is that they are making a big noise about 80HP and people are assuming that means at the wheel, (They do, most people do!) and as soon as it's taken out by the press it will be revealed that it's way off the mark and it will get panned and non Guzzi folks will loose all interest.

It's not what the bike will be like, I think it will be OK, it's what it will sell like that concerns me.

Pete

[Kev m]

Kev it makes ZERO difference to me what it's figures are. The PROBLEM as I see it is that they are making a big noise about 80HP and people are assuming that means at the wheel, (They do, most people do!) and as soon as it's taken out by the press it will be revealed that it's way off the mark and it will get panned and non Guzzi folks will loose all interest.

It's not what the bike will be like, I think it will be OK, it's what it will sell like that concerns me.

Pete

No, no frigging way. No one past an adult version of a window licking moron in this day and age is ever going to think that a HP figure published by an OEM is REAR WHEEL vs crank, that hasn't happened by pretty much any major manufacturer in DECADES.

And even if there is an exception the one that expects otherwise is still a booger eating moron!!!

Seriously, wtf, what OEM has released a hp figure that didn't show a lower number on a mag Dyno test in decades?!?

[egschade]

It's not what the bike will be like, I think it will be OK, it's what it will sell like that concerns me.

Pete

My hope is that it's modern enough with enough power to take it out of the "old fart's bike" category to something that's appealing to a broader audience. If enough wins the day and more people buy this Guzzi it will be mission accomplished, regardless of specs. That so many folks get all worked up about numbers is amusing but your point is well taken. The majority will never take a test ride because a bike is too heavy/light, chain/shaft, has a beak/doesn't, has gas tank seams, etc, etc, etc. "Only" making +/- 65 rear wheel HP may turn many off without ever setting foot in a dealership. Too bad for them but also too bad for Guzzi.

[lucian]

Lots of valid points concerning who this may or may not appeal to.   The one thing I like about the whole concept is the return of an 850 small block. If it has anyway near the the 76 ponies of yesteryear's it will be a perfect mount for a lot of folks who could care less about HP spec. The carbed 850 motor is one of Guzzi's best to date IMHO.

[JohninVT]

No, no frigging way. No one past an adult version of a window licking moron in this day and age is ever going to think that a HP figure published by an OEM is REAR WHEEL vs crank, that hasn't happened by pretty much any major manufacturer in DECADES.

And even if there is an exception the one that expects otherwise is still a booger eating moron!!!

Seriously, wtf, what OEM has released a hp figure that didn't show a lower number on a mag Dyno test in decades?!?

Your(I hope) humorous outburst notwithstanding, a lot of people do believe manufacturer claims regarding both HP and weight.  Dry vs wet weight and crank vs rwhp are often taken as gospel.  When someone buys a motorcycle they always seek to affirm their decision.  It's natural that they choose to believe the best about their bike.  Hardcore enthusiasts are not the majority of riders and many, many owners don't know the difference between RWHP and crank hp.  If I had a dollar every time some rider claimed their old cruiser could go 160mph or a guy on a Harley said their bike has 120+hp...I could pay a few months mortgage. 

Motorcycles riders are like fisherman....they lie. 

[kingoffleece]

That's beautiful, John.

It won't be the bike for bench racers, that's for sure.
I wonder if history will repeat itself here.  Dave Serle, the last competent editor for MotorCycle Consumer News, wrote a glowing review of the Stelvio several years back.  Went so far as to say, and I paraphrase, that it was an equally valid choice as the 1200GS.  High praise indeed from the press.
It didn't mean a hill of beans for sales.

I'll be totally amazed if the reviews that are forthcoming are anything like the R/E new 650's, which by and large are getting nice press as being quite entertaining at the modest power output.  I'll expect more like "Guzzi missed the boat with only xxxxx power in a bike segment that screams for xxxxxx power".

Time will tell, as in most things.

[oilhed]

I'd buy a new one IF the small blocks were more on par with Triumph Bonneville's, Ducati Monsters, Yamaha F-07's, BMW F800's.  MG are priced in their league, now back it up with comparable specs and performance.

So you can have a modern Guzzi as is (hand made in Italy) or a modern Triumph as is (assembled from parts made in S.E. Asia)
I'd chose the slower Guzzi every day!  Those Bonnies should been made in the U.K. regardless of price.

[Kev m]

If I had a dollar every time some rider claimed their old cruiser could go 160mph or a guy on a Harley said their bike has 120+hp...I could pay a few months mortgage. 

Those are examples of the window lickers...

[rocker59]

I got as far as, “maniacal valves”....

I have some Maniacal Valves.  They're from an ALFA Romeo V6.  Those maniacal sons of bitches are lying bent in a bucket of other broken parts that came out of the top end of the engine...

 

[Tusayan]

I read the original article in Italian and IIRC the engineer was quoted as saying the design team had paid maniacal attention to the design of the valve train, cam etc. in order to improve engine performance.

A friend of mine has a Stelvio and Griso, as well as a new R12GS in the US and a 2005 GS in Europe.  He thinks the Stelvio is closer matched to the 2005 GS, notwithstanding the ridiculous electric assist brakes on that bike.

The V85TT will benefit from not competing directly with much of anything.  A follow on street bike can and should do the same.  A good example from the past is the Ducati Monster.

[JohninVT]

That's beautiful, John.

It won't be the bike for bench racers, that's for sure.
I wonder if history will repeat itself here.  Dave Serle, the last competent editor for MotorCycle Consumer News, wrote a glowing review of the Stelvio several years back.  Went so far as to say, and I paraphrase, that it was an equally valid choice as the 1200GS.  High praise indeed from the press.
It didn't mean a hill of beans for sales.

I'll be totally amazed if the reviews that are forthcoming are anything like the R/E new 650's, which by and large are getting nice press as being quite entertaining at the modest power output.  I'll expect more like "Guzzi missed the boat with only xxxxx power in a bike segment that screams for xxxxxx power".

Time will tell, as in most things.

I think it's going to get good reviews based on the very positive press that's been generated before the bike has even been road tested.  Unless Guzzi really screws the pooch(like the bike dyno's sub 60hp or they lunch themselves ala roller fiasco), it might be a nice sales booster.  It's not going to poach sales from the small blocks or big blocks.  A roadster will.  I think they're going to have to dump the 750 and use the new mill in a V7IV.  The "Le Mans" that people are clamoring for in this thread will be the V7IV Cafe Racer.  Swapping everything in the current small block line up to the 850 is really the only thing that makes sense for a company that sells 10,000 bikes a year. 

Testers will whine about the tube tires and dealer network, like everyone else, but as long as the handling is up to par and the bikes are reliable they will ride and test well.  The price is right.  The bikes are feature rich.  They fit into a popular niche.  I don't see a problem.  However, I am convinced the bike is going to dyno at 60-63hp.  It has to.  Physics is physics doncha know.     

[kingoffleece]

Dusty,
You made me spit out my coffee!

[kingoffleece]

I wonder if an OEM has ever "suggested" or tweaked a dyno report?  Nah!
Never do they install a "factory enhanced" computer, either.  Or hot timing and/or cams. 

Never heard that about Guzzi but it's been strongly suggested and even published about possibly a few others.