Author Topic: Re Bore of Griso 1100 engine.  (Read 2497 times)

Offline meccanicab

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Re Bore of Griso 1100 engine.
« on: December 02, 2018, 02:17:00 PM »
Hi Guys,
Over the past 5 years, I've had a re map, heads skimmed by 25 thou', free flow air filter combined with taking the cover off the air box to increase the performance on my Griso 1100.
The result so far has increased the back wheel out put from 83 BHP to 95. Measured on the same rolling road for consistency.
The torque has been increased as well ( don't have the figures to hand).
I'm considering gas flowing the heads along with increasing the capacity ( the aim is to achieve atleast 100BHP at the back wheel)
There is plenty of info/ companies who can gas flow the heads in the UK, but finding consistent info on whether the capacity can be increased and by how much is not available over here.
Has anyone carried out an increase in bore?
If so which pistons?
My other thought was to remove the airbox completely and fit 'pod' style air filters on the inlets to the injectors. My concern there is the affect on the bottom/ mid range performance of the engine.
 Any info would be useful.

Thanks.
James.
 
 

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Re: Re Bore of Griso 1100 engine.
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2018, 02:33:43 PM »
 :popcorn:


Online pete roper

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Re: Re Bore of Griso 1100 engine.
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2018, 06:25:36 PM »
Find a more realistic dynamometer.

Where did the map come from? Is the Lambda still active? You won't be able to take the bores out much larger without risking not having enough meat around the suds.

If you want more go why not simply buy an 8V?

Pete

Offline fotoguzzi

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Re: Re Bore of Griso 1100 engine.
« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2018, 09:21:32 PM »
Find a more realistic dynamometer.

If you want more go why not simply buy an 8V?

Pete
enough said..
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Offline molly

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Re: Re Bore of Griso 1100 engine.
« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2018, 04:02:46 AM »
The 1100 Griso produces almost identical power and torque figures to the 1200 2V Sport/Norge motor so not much to be gained there.

This guy is worth listening to:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnHmUidA14A&t=325s
« Last Edit: December 03, 2018, 04:06:43 AM by molly »
Dave

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Online pete roper

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Re: Re Bore of Griso 1100 engine.
« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2018, 04:43:26 AM »
Whoops! Yes, you could go from 92 to 94 or whatever but it would be utterly pointless. Without bigger TB's it's all moot anyway. Cams might get you an extra 1 or 2, pods will achieve nothing above accelerated engine wear. Stick the airbox lid back on. Remove the snorkel and use the original air filter.

Offline Rough Edge racing

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Re: Re Bore of Griso 1100 engine.
« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2018, 06:15:59 AM »
Find a more realistic dynamometer.


 Hmmm..how do you know any dyno is accurate? If it's a Dynojet the power readout will be 5-10 % more than a eddy current dyno like a Superflow or Mustang....
I ride junk, some of it actually goes fast

Offline molly

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Re: Re Bore of Griso 1100 engine.
« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2018, 08:07:47 AM »
Hmmm..how do you know any dyno is accurate? If it's a Dynojet the power readout will be 5-10 % more than a eddy current dyno like a Superflow or Mustang....

Essentially you don't, but the OP is doing back to back comparisons so that's fine.
Dave

Lincolnshire, U.K.

Griso 1100

Offline rocker59

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Re: Re Bore of Griso 1100 engine.
« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2018, 08:20:24 AM »
the OP is doing back to back comparisons so that's fine.

 :thumb:

If you run all your dyno tests on the same machine, you'll be able to know what the gains are.
Michael T.
Aux Arcs
1996 Moto Guzzi Sport 1100
"Do what you can, with what you have, where you are." - Theodore Roosevelt

Offline rocker59

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Re: Re Bore of Griso 1100 engine.
« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2018, 08:26:32 AM »

Has anyone carried out an increase in bore? If so which pistons?

My other thought was to remove the airbox completely and fit 'pod' style air filters on the inlets to the injectors. My concern there is the affect on the bottom/ mid range performance of the engine.


As mentioned, 1200 Breva Sport and 1200 Norge pistons and barrels would be the next step in displacement.

Leave the airbox on.  You'll have more filter area and you'll avoid losing any bottom end.
Michael T.
Aux Arcs
1996 Moto Guzzi Sport 1100
"Do what you can, with what you have, where you are." - Theodore Roosevelt

Offline Rough Edge racing

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Re: Re Bore of Griso 1100 engine.
« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2018, 09:34:10 AM »
:thumb:

If you run all your dyno tests on the same machine, you'll be able to know what the gains are.

 Yes for sure...but the original comments were that the HP reported by the OP were exaggerated  ....I was referring to that...
I ride junk, some of it actually goes fast

Offline Bisbonian

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Re: Re Bore of Griso 1100 engine.
« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2018, 09:56:20 AM »
Regardless of the actual numbers, a 12hp gain is impressive.

Offline John A

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Re: Re Bore of Griso 1100 engine.
« Reply #12 on: December 03, 2018, 01:52:54 PM »
Yes for sure...but the original comments were that the HP reported by the OP were exaggerated  ....I was referring to that...



when relating ones own dyno numbers, almost everyone, myself included, rounds up. so when I see the number, I take it as an exaggerated approximation. its all part of the fun :evil: :grin:
John
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Offline Lannis

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Re: Re Bore of Griso 1100 engine.
« Reply #13 on: December 03, 2018, 02:34:34 PM »
Find a more realistic dynamometer.

Where did the map come from? Is the Lambda still active? You won't be able to take the bores out much larger without risking not having enough meat around the suds.

If you want more go why not simply buy an 8V?

Pete

Well, you could say that about almost any bike.   Someone might be looking to put squish bands and expansion chambers on a 350 Yamaha and the answer might be "Why not just buy a 400?".    Or someone might be looking to hot-rod an 883 Sportster and the response might be "Why not buy a 1200?"   Or a ZRX-1400?

Sometimes folks like the handling characteristics, "feel" etc of their own bike and would rather boost the performance of that bike with $100s rather than take a $$$1000s hit on selling old/buying new .... ?   

Doesn't sound unreasonable to me.

Lannis
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Then I realized I was watching the dog chase his tail.

Offline 5154guzzi

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Re: Re Bore of Griso 1100 engine.
« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2018, 07:01:01 PM »
The later 1200 pistons from the Breva Sport or Norge will have different deck height due to the longer stroke of 81.2 mm vs the 80 in yours. It wont be a drop in plug and play.  You should be able to machine the cylinders and or pistons to get a good squish band and proper deck height.  If you have custom pistons made, some manufacturers like CP can match the weight of the old ones to keep the balance correct. 

Offline TN Mark

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Re: Re Bore of Griso 1100 engine.
« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2018, 09:38:06 PM »
Hi Guys,
Over the past 5 years, I've had a re map, heads skimmed by 25 thou', free flow air filter combined with taking the cover off the air box to increase the performance on my Griso 1100.
The result so far has increased the back wheel out put from 83 BHP to 95. Measured on the same rolling road for consistency.
The torque has been increased as well ( don't have the figures to hand).
I'm considering gas flowing the heads along with increasing the capacity ( the aim is to achieve atleast 100BHP at the back wheel)
There is plenty of info/ companies who can gas flow the heads in the UK, but finding consistent info on whether the capacity can be increased and by how much is not available over here.
Has anyone carried out an increase in bore?
If so which pistons?
My other thought was to remove the airbox completely and fit 'pod' style air filters on the inlets to the injectors. My concern there is the affect on the bottom/ mid range performance of the engine.
 Any info would be useful.

Thanks.
James.


Sorry friend. You may not get a whole lot of encouragement regarding performance gains on this site. Typically what works on most air - air/oil cooled v-twins is typically (not always) discouraged (or worse) on this forum. For some reason many Moto Guzzi owners will go no further than an air cleaner, mufflers and maybe a new ECU tune. Much over that, and, well. don't get your hopes up for others to point you in the direction of the other 'low hanging fruit' performance items that are used with huge success seemingly on most other v-twin platforms. By design, the Guzzi v-twins like to rev which is a good thing for making sustained power. Some other v-twins, no matter what you do to them regarding performance mods and big bore kits, they shut down much over 3200 rpm. I know of no big bore kit for the Moto Guzzi 1100 except going to their own 1200. Others will likely know more about that.

But remember, you've already seen some nice increases. Congratulations to you, I applaud your effort and your success. Look closely at your Hp and Torque curves. Hp should be fairly linear and Torque should start early and remain fairly flat till the Hp and Torque figures cross. Talk to a reputable tuning expert and find out what's available for the 1100. You 'may' find out there isn't much after market performance hardware support for the Guzzi 1100. But if you haven't yet done so, contact Beattle on this forum regarding what map(s) he may have for your 1100. From everything I've seen, he is by far the tuning expert regarding Moto Guzzi twins. Listen carefully to what he says.

Due to nearly no Moto Guzzi factory support regarding true performance upgrades, one of the biggest issues will be the time and the cost of finding out what other pistons are available, boring the oem cylinders, cams grinds, throttle body options etc etc etc. As has been mentioned, pistons from other Guzzi models may be a good starting point regarding possibilities. As designed and for whatever 'performance' items are available from Piaggio, they typically won't yield nearly the gains as an aftermarket option due to an oem having to be EPA certified.

Sure, you could go to the 1200 2V or 4V engine and then others will say why not the 1400. The 1100, 1200 and 1400 'can' all be made to have nice increases in Hp and Torque. They will react somewhat differently to changes though. Regardless, all three of these engine configurations can be made to make good power. Like other brands, it always comes down to money and ROI for what you're going to spend. I'm not sure but you 'may' already be getting close to what's practical regarding gains on the 1100 without spending more on the engine than the whole bike is worth.

Contact the tuners who make claims and verify for yourself if what they're saying and selling is achievable, practical and within your budget. Most importantly, enjoy your Griso, they can be a lot of fun in many ways.

Online oldbike54

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Re: Re Bore of Griso 1100 engine.
« Reply #16 on: December 03, 2018, 10:23:51 PM »
  :popcorn:

 There is an old saying , if you want a lot of horsepower , start out with something that already makes a lot of it . Not only is it cheaper in the short term , it will save even more money over time .

 Dusty
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Offline Moto

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Re: Re Bore of Griso 1100 engine.
« Reply #17 on: December 03, 2018, 10:45:32 PM »
Jim Barron at Rose Farm Classics in Woodstock, Illinois, had a mechanic some time back who made a veritible rocket out of his own Griso 1100. The bike was sold on later, and I believe the mechanic left long ago. (I don't remember his name.) But Jim is still there and might be someone you should ask. At least he'd be unlikely to scoff at you, I think.

I won't scoff at you either. Heck, I'm dreaming of hopping up my Italjet, not that I have the time, and even though I could "just buy a G400c," for example.

Moto
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Re: Re Bore of Griso 1100 engine.
« Reply #18 on: December 03, 2018, 11:39:12 PM »
 No scoffing , but no matter what you do to a Moto Guzzi , some spotty teenager on a 600 CC motorbike literally sucks the mirrors off of your hotrod Guzzi as he goes by .

 Dusty
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Offline Moto

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Re: Re Bore of Griso 1100 engine.
« Reply #19 on: December 03, 2018, 11:43:24 PM »
I think we all know and accept that!
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Offline meccanicab

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Re: Re Bore of Griso 1100 engine.
« Reply #20 on: December 10, 2018, 03:39:56 PM »
Hi Guys,

Thanks for all the replies and suggestions.
To give some more info,I have owned the bike from new, purchased 11 years ago before the 4v head model was launched.
I have considered changing for the 4v motor, but due to the problems with the cam followers, plus other issues my local dealers have encountered, all the guys I trust in the dealer network advised not to change bikes, rather stick with the 2v head model.
  The bike has been dyno'd on the same unit every time, so whilst I appreciate the comments about 'real world' figures, the output from the engine is measured in a consistent manner.
The map was tailor made by a well know tuning company in the UK called BSD. These guys are the go to people not only for street bikes,the national bike magazines ( Bike, Performance Bike etc) use there service to check manufacturers figures, plus several of the private British Superbike teams use there services.
The lamba has been ditched when the custom map was made.
The idea with the pod filters was more to see if this would help power output without losing bottom and mid range power/torque. I appreciate this can be an issue.
The existing air box is in place bar the top which fits over the air filter.
The exhaust is the termi MG official aftermarket unit.
As a side note, the suspension has been up graded front and rear to improve the handling. If any of you guys in the States have been to the UK, and have driven on our roads, this will make more sense to you.
I love the bike to pieces, don't tell the wife, but almost as much as her! :grin: It's a keeper, I'm just having fun seeing how far the engine can be tuned without losing practicality for real world use. So far the improvements have been worth while. Yes any spotty hurbet can go quickly in a straight line on a UJM. The idea is to make the bike more fun on the twisties!

Please do keep the ideas coming, and I will keep you guys updated as we go down this slippery road!

James
 

Offline 5154guzzi

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Re: Re Bore of Griso 1100 engine.
« Reply #21 on: December 10, 2018, 04:20:38 PM »
James,

 I think you might get a better return with headwork and a hotter cam , but it`s easy enough to have custom pistons made these days and a set of cylinders bored and nickisiled to match.  I think 95mm would be tops for a street engine ( same as the 1200 Sport ) 

 These 97`s were custom made for a Griso 1100 race motor , but made to weigh close enough to drop in without rebalancing.  They can be made aprox. another 100 grams lighter if desired by CP piston in California.  Not cheap, but probably cheaper than the cost difference between a 1100 and the 1200 8V .  Would likely give you more torque everywhere and a little more hp.




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Re: Re Bore of Griso 1100 engine.
« Reply #22 on: December 10, 2018, 04:46:38 PM »
James,
          As a 2 valve Griso owner I also applaud your efforts.
I used to own a VII sport that had been hotted up by a previous owner, it was a blast. I fitted pod filters on that and I noticed a significant flat spot in mid range so I figured it would benefit from intake stacks which I tried by simply using the original intake rubbers (throttle body to air box), before the filter, sure enough it made a significant improvement.

I'm sure you have already tuned the intake but I didn't see it.

Keep us posted.
72 Eldorado
07 Griso 1100

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Online JohninVT

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Re: Re Bore of Griso 1100 engine.
« Reply #23 on: December 11, 2018, 04:58:21 AM »
There's a lot of satisfaction to be gained by slowly modifying a bike over time.  Your approach is reasonable and pretty restrained.  It sounds like fun and I wish you success.   

Offline molly

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Re: Re Bore of Griso 1100 engine.
« Reply #24 on: December 11, 2018, 05:18:39 AM »
I have been watching on Youtube various tests of Sprint competition air filters and there does seem some evidence that they do add a few bhp at the top end on some bikes.
I did have one in a 1200 2V Breva a few years ago but had already dynoed the bike so never measured the benefits. From what I have seen I wouldn't dismiss them out of hand on a tuning project.

If possible it would be good to see the BSD dyno charts on the OP's project.
Dave

Lincolnshire, U.K.

Griso 1100

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Re: Re Bore of Griso 1100 engine.
« Reply #25 on: December 11, 2018, 06:50:35 AM »
I suspect that this not really a strive for ultimate power as logic would dictate another path

Rather a learning experience that shows what works and what doesn't and the satisfaction of achieving something yourself

So I say fill your boots James, and if you fancy pod filters or even one those miracle "magnetic fuel atom aligners" - I'm sure you will have fun on the journey!

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with molested Sacred Screw - NOT BY ME!!!
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Online Kristian

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Re: Re Bore of Griso 1100 engine.
« Reply #26 on: December 11, 2018, 02:51:28 PM »
Nope.

For some reason or another, many Guzzi owners tend to lose their minds to various extents in either over or under thinking what the Moto Guzzi big block is capable of. I have been subject to this at various times until reason thankfully prevailed and I realized that most Guzzi big blocks made over the last 30 years are tuned to within an inch of long, reliable lives. Name one two valve pushrod car engine in a production car that is redlined at 8000 rpm, and which cranks out 80 to 90 wheel horsepower per liter. Doesn't exist. One of America's foremost Guzzi tuners, Mike Rich, has a long track record of stating to all sorts of people who inquire about making their big blocks faster that once you go down that path, you open a Pandora's box; it was also his advice to me about a year ago, stopping me from spending a couple of grand with him.

Here's my earlier post on the subject:https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=98418.msg1554884#msg1554884

My Sport 1100 is a near perfect running example of the breed, stock but with Mikuni flat slides and Ignitech ignition. Huge, broad, torque curve. Eminently satisfying to ride. A riding buddy's Ducati 1198 was just dynoed at 160 wheel horsepower on the same Dyno that mine hit 77 on; that thing is staggeringly much faster than my Guzzi. Though it doesn't look as good, nor is it is fun to ride *for me*. On twisty roads, he would have a very hard time indeed running away from me because a well-ridden 80 hp Guzzi is already faster than what can be used reasonably on the street. A bridge abutment or cliff face cares not one whit whether you hit it going 120 or 160 mph. You spatter just the same either way.

A stock 140+ rear wheel HP 8V Ducati can be had for $6000 and up, and will flat out murder *any* Guzzi ever made/modified in a drag race.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2018, 05:18:48 PM by Kristian »

Online pete roper

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Re: Re Bore of Griso 1100 engine.
« Reply #27 on: December 11, 2018, 03:38:36 PM »
What he said. The most 'Biggus Dickus' 2V I've ridden on the road is the motor in Chuck's Scura. That thing is awesome, it has a lot of Magic in it from somewhere but it's not a 100HP motor and would be less fun if it was! Mike Rich was responsible for a lot of its get up and go I believe.

G11 is further hampered by smaller throttle bodies than the V11. Filters won't compensate for lack of choke size. Maybe some porting work and a pair of 50's off an 8V with appropriate injector and map changes would help? More cam lift is difficult due to rod clearance problems. Spinning it harder will require different rods and that clearance issue will have to be taken into consideration. Then to enjoy the benefits of that the valve train will have to be stiffened up, greater spring pressures, ChroMo pushrods etc. which lead to greater parasitic losses and more rapid wear.......

There seems to be this idea that anything is possible if you throw enough money at something or simply want it to be so! Unfortunately this isn't the case. In stock trim the G11 is a very nice engine, the only nicer 2V is the 948 used in the Bellagio, (Which, incidentally I'd think would be a far better engine to chase HP with.) play on its good points rather than trying to turn it into something it isn't.

Pete

Offline Moto

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Re: Re Bore of Griso 1100 engine.
« Reply #28 on: December 11, 2018, 08:08:25 PM »
Nope.

For some reason or another, many Guzzi owners tend to lose their minds to various extents in either over or under thinking what the Moto Guzzi big block is capable of. I have been subject to this at various times until reason thankfully prevailed and I realized that most Guzzi big blocks made over the last 30 years are tuned to within an inch of long, reliable lives. Name one two valve pushrod car engine in a production car that is redlined at 8000 rpm, and which cranks out 80 to 90 wheel horsepower per liter. Doesn't exist.

This is nonsense. A stock Griso 1100 makes 70 hp per liter, not "80 to 90," according to the Motorcycle Consumer News, December 2006, test.* Plenty of room for improvement. Nobody said a word about beating 160 hp Ducatis. Fun is the name of the game.

Good luck to the Griso 1100 hot rodders!





Moto

* Calculation: 74.19 tested * (1000/1064) = 69.73 hp per liter.
photo credit: Rose Farm Classics [Jonathan was the name of the mechanic.]
« Last Edit: December 11, 2018, 08:34:36 PM by Moto »
1976 850-T3
2007 GRiSO 1100
2017 Italjet/SSR Buccaneer 250i

Online Kristian

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Re: Re Bore of Griso 1100 engine.
« Reply #29 on: December 11, 2018, 09:58:43 PM »
This is nonsense. A stock Griso 1100 makes 70 hp per liter, not "80 to 90,"

* Calculation: 74.19 tested * (1000/1064) = 69.73 hp per liter.

No. I meant *Crank* HP. Pay attention to those who know much better--the many Guzzi tuners with experience over the last 40 years who hit walls at around 85-95 RWHP for fully tuned race engines with fly-like lifespans.

I did not say *anything* about beating Ducatis. The point is that our '60s-tech engines are quite pathetic in HP races and are nearly fully optimized ex-factory. To really make it obvious: Nothing you do to any Guzzi will make it nearly as fast as a stock, used, $4K Yamaha R6. You'll just make your poor Guzzi suffer and far less reliable.

Guzzi big blocks *are not* innately high-performance engines, but, can be tuned to do quite well somewhat against the original-ancient-design parameters. They have too many insurmountable power bottlenecks to overcome.

Where's the "room for plenty of improvement?" Remember to post your Griso's before/after dyno charts from the same dyno once you're done chasing whatever it is you're chasing. Proof of the pudding and all that. Remember, the Griso engine was fettled as far as reasonable by some seriously great engineers with Aprilia/Piaggio money--and 75 RWHP is what they arrived at all tings considered.

Intelligence requires that you trade your 2V for an 4V Griso if you want a faster Guzzi. It'll cost you a fraction of the $$3-5K+ you'll need to get 85 RWHP from a 2V, and you'll still have loads more torque and power from a far more reliable engine. And, for the price of a decent Guzzi race engine, you can have a Ducati with 60 more HP and 20 more Ft. Lbs. of torque.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2018, 10:00:13 PM by Kristian »

 


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