Author Topic: Re Bore of Griso 1100 engine.  (Read 2927 times)

Online Huzo

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Re: Re Bore of Griso 1100 engine.
« Reply #30 on: December 11, 2018, 10:05:03 PM »
No. I meant *Crank* HP. Pay attention to those who know much better--the many Guzzi tuners with experience over the last 40 years who hit walls at around 85-95 RWHP for fully tuned race engines with fly-like lifespans.

I did not say *anything* about beating Ducatis. The point is that our '60s-tech engines are quite pathetic in HP races and are nearly fully optimized ex-factory. To really make it obvious: Nothing you do to any Guzzi will make it nearly as fast as a stock, used, $4K Yamaha R6. You'll just make your poor Guzzi suffer and far less reliable.

Guzzi big blocks *are not* innately high-performance engines, but, can be tuned to do quite well somewhat against the original-ancient-design parameters. They have too many insurmountable power bottlenecks to overcome.

Where's the "room for plenty of improvement?" Remember to post your Griso's before/after dyno charts from the same dyno once you're done chasing whatever it is you're chasing. Proof of the pudding and all that. Remember, the Griso engine was fettled as far as reasonable by some seriously great engineers with Aprilia/Piaggio money--and 75 RWHP is what they arrived at all tings considered.

Intelligence requires that you trade your 2V for an 4V Griso if you want a faster Guzzi. It'll cost you a fraction of the $$3-5K+ you'll need to get 85 RWHP from a 2V, and you'll still have loads more torque and power from a far more reliable engine. And, for the price of a decent Guzzi race engine, you can have a Ducati with 60 more HP and 20 more Ft. Lbs. of torque.
Wouldn't it be great if that wasn't completely true..?
However "intelligence" doesn't always go hand in hand with motorcycle ownership.. :wink:
BTW..
Did you ever see the movie "Worlds Fastest Indian"...? :bike-037: :popcorn:
« Last Edit: December 11, 2018, 10:08:12 PM by Huzo »

Online Moto

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Re: Re Bore of Griso 1100 engine.
« Reply #31 on: December 11, 2018, 10:11:12 PM »
No. I meant *Crank* HP.
You said "wheel hp."

I did not say *anything* about beating Ducatis. The point is that our '60s-tech engines are quite pathetic in HP races and are nearly fully optimized ex-factory. To really make it obvious: Nothing you do to any Guzzi will make it nearly as fast as a stock, used, $4K Yamaha R6.
As I said before, we all know this. Why repeat the point?

Guzzi big blocks *are not* innately high-performance engines, but, can be tuned to do quite well somewhat against the original-ancient-design parameters. They have too many insurmountable power bottlenecks to overcome.
I said nothing to contradict this.

Where's the "room for plenty of improvement?"
See attached photo, above.

Remember to post your Griso's before/after dyno charts from the same dyno once you're done chasing whatever it is you're chasing. Proof of the pudding and all that. Remember, the Griso engine was fettled as far as reasonable by some seriously great engineers with Aprilia/Piaggio money--and 75 RWHP is what they arrived at all tings considered.
I'm not hot rodding my own Griso, just saying attaboy for those that do. You've already seen the OP quote his hp improvement so far. Again, the testimony I had from Jim at Rose Farm convinced me.

Intelligence requires that you trade your 2V for an 4V Griso if you want a faster Guzzi. It'll cost you a fraction of the $$3-5K+ you'll need to get 85 RWHP from a 2V, and you'll still have loads more torque and power from a far more reliable engine. And, for the price of a decent Guzzi race engine, you can have a Ducati with 60 more HP and 20 more Ft. Lbs. of torque.

Intelligence requires no such thing, and I don't want a faster Griso 1100.

I, however, understand the appeal of improving one's own bike even if it won't be "a Ducati with 60 more HP." Seems to me the lack of intelligence, or at least of understanding, is elsewhere. Nothing forces anyone to move to a Ducati or similar just because you think that is the only intelligent thing to do.

Moto
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Offline Kristian

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Re: Re Bore of Griso 1100 engine.
« Reply #32 on: December 11, 2018, 11:07:45 PM »

I, however, understand the appeal of improving one's own bike even if it won't be "a Ducati with 60 more HP." Seems to me the lack of intelligence, or at least of understanding, is elsewhere. Nothing forces anyone to move to a Ducati or similar just because you think that is the only intelligent thing to do.


I show you an apple, you see an orange. Can't help you with that.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2018, 11:28:12 PM by Kristian »

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Re: Re Bore of Griso 1100 engine.
« Reply #33 on: December 12, 2018, 12:09:15 AM »
 For some reason a fruit salad sounds good right now  :rolleyes:

 Dusty
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Online beetle

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Re: Re Bore of Griso 1100 engine.
« Reply #34 on: December 12, 2018, 01:23:54 AM »
This is fun!


 :popcorn:




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Online Huzo

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Re: Re Bore of Griso 1100 engine.
« Reply #35 on: December 12, 2018, 02:16:22 AM »
For some reason a fruit salad sounds good right now  :rolleyes:

 Dusty
Someone'll end up wearing the rough end of the pineapple Dusty..

Online molly

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Re: Re Bore of Griso 1100 engine.
« Reply #36 on: December 12, 2018, 03:41:35 AM »
These guys have gone the full nine yards on Griso performance.

http://www.supermototecnica.com/2016/07/01/millepercento-big-bore-moto-guzzi-griso-2/
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Offline Turin

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Re: Re Bore of Griso 1100 engine.
« Reply #37 on: December 12, 2018, 04:10:26 AM »
The millepercento uses a 1400cc motor with liquid cooled heads that pre-dates the griso. I believe the company that made the original engine/kit was called "Big Bore".
Not much of the original guzzi motor left there. One of those motors made there way into a msg-01 race bike.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2018, 04:11:30 AM by Turin »
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Offline pete roper

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Re: Re Bore of Griso 1100 engine.
« Reply #38 on: December 12, 2018, 06:01:14 AM »
Look, I don't think anyone, certainly not I, are trying to discourage the OP from messing about with their engine if that is what they want to do. What I at least am doing is suggesting touching base with reality as to what is achievable with realistic goals in terms of performance if reliability is to be maintained. There are also things like the simple physical constraints of the motor. What you can actually change and do before bits start biffing in to each other, how much capacity you can have and still have a functioning breathing system for the case, how high you can rev it before the oil delivery is compromised and many, many other factors but they ALL have to be taken into account. It's not just being little miss muffet sticking your thumb in and pulling out a plumb! That's all, really.

In my own experience of all V11 and post V11 2 Valve bikes, spine, CARC or whatever much bigger PERFORMANCE dividends will be achieved by spending time and money on brakes and suspension. A decent open loop map, not one that just turns off the lambda input and then throws in fuel which is what most aftermarket maps seem to be because they are built by people who believe that factory maps are 'Too Lean' and don't understand how the MM system works, will also pay great dividends in terms of rider enjoyment.

Best of luck finding what you want.

Pete

Offline John A

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Re: Re Bore of Griso 1100 engine.
« Reply #39 on: December 12, 2018, 08:52:31 AM »
While a Guzzi is not faster than a lot of bikes, often they can be ridden faster. That's how they were first explained to me.  When I tweak my own bike, I just want it to be the best of its kind. So if it's a V65, I want it to run better and handle better than other V65's. If it's a V11, I want it better than other V11's and so on. That's a fun way to go about screwing up my bike, it's a learning process for me and if I do mess it up, what it costs to make it right is the price of that lesson so I tend to do my homework.
John
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Offline 5154guzzi

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Re: Re Bore of Griso 1100 engine.
« Reply #40 on: December 12, 2018, 10:45:52 AM »
 The 1100 Sport is a great bike, but it hardly is maxed out from the factory in top tune.  That Crane designed cam is fine for the street, with 256 degrees of duration, it`s only slightly more exciting than the 252 degree duration of the T3 yawn-mower cam, even with the whopping .050 more valve lift.   Probably a compromise more for emissions than anything else, but certainly room for improvement.   Yet somehow, that 1064 2 valver with Dellortos would run neck and neck with a Daytona 4V at top speed, dyno fiqures be damned. 

  Seems we are in an era where innovation and hot rodding are discouraged , and dumping our ride for something with more power is the preferred intelligent method over hands on hot rodding.     Argue for limitations,  and they are yours.

 

 

Online JohninVT

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Re: Re Bore of Griso 1100 engine.
« Reply #41 on: December 12, 2018, 11:08:10 AM »


  Seems we are in an era where innovation and hot rodding are discouraged , and dumping our ride for something with more power is the preferred intelligent method over hands on hot rodding.     Argue for limitations,  and they are yours.

Not really.  I think the OP should do whatever he derives enjoyment from.  He obviously loves his Griso and likes messing with it.  Thatís what motorcycling is all about.  However, this conversation is a lot like the thread about the V85 where people who donít understand basic physics keep arguing that the engine can achieve HP that is impossible.  Itís what happens when someone with an uninformed opinion bumps up against unassailable fact.  You talk about limitations like they can be overcome by sheer will.  Try that with gravity and tell us how it works out. 

The farther you go in modding any engine the smaller the gains become and each hp gained becomes 3,4 or 5 times as expensive as the previous hp gained.  When you start talking about 500 to 1,000 dollars per hp, itís time to accept that youíre at the end of the road.  The OP is there.  That doesnít mean he canít continue and to be honest, I kind of hope he does just because Iím curious how much he can wring out of the Griso but common sense says heís done with any meaningful gain for under 500-1000 per hp.

Online Murray

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Re: Re Bore of Griso 1100 engine.
« Reply #42 on: December 13, 2018, 08:49:29 AM »
The 1100 Sport is a great bike, but it hardly is maxed out from the factory in top tune.     Yet somehow, that 1064 2 valver with Dellortos would run neck and neck with a Daytona 4V at top speed, dyno fiqures be damned. 

  Seems we are in an era where innovation and hot rodding are discouraged , and dumping our ride for something with more power is the preferred intelligent method over hands on hot rodding.     Argue for limitations,  and they are yours.

A brief look at what else is available in the market trying to get more out of something like an 1100 sport is an exercise of rolling a turd in glitter and this is what Pete and a few others are trying to point out, if you are expecting another 10hp out of an exhaust swap like you got on your vaguely recent sports bike you will be miserably disappointed . Providing the people undertaking the exercise understand it is rolling a turd in glitter and quickly becomes and exercise in ever reducing gains I don't think anyone has a serious issue, something about managing expectations.

Pretty much the 1100 sport motor is maxed out, well as far as the factory who needed to pass emissions and provide warrantee was prepared to go, sure you get some mid range gains if you dump the archaic delortos and a little out of the exhaust. The 1100 sport had to pass 25 year ago emissions not current ones so there is not a lot of gain in basic tuning compared to what can be had out of a modern stock bike. We then start talking about machine work and re-engineering, which gets expensive fast for little gain assuming you can find a machinist that is prepared to mess with old munt and how much of the motorcycle vs nail bomb trade off you are prepared to accept.

 In a straight line the vaguely stock (stock they were an almost unrideable tuning mess so not many are actually stock) 1100 sport will run out of gearing and rpm at about the same time an A kit daytona and only the A kit will run out of grunt and aerodynamics, I seriously doubt the 1100 sport can pull any taller gearing. The C Kit motors as fitted to the Racing and RS will piss all over it, a well set up Ducati 1000DS (two valve aircooled motor) will also have it for breakfast. First gen Aprilia Millie's/Falco's as also on a whole another league. Modern bikes are engineered to an incredible level i.e the R1's frame is of varying thicknesses to allow for flex and stiffness to optimize handling this has been the case for at least the last 10 years maybe you should go take one for a run.

Offline Tusayan

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Re: Re Bore of Griso 1100 engine.
« Reply #43 on: December 13, 2018, 09:21:55 AM »
I don't think anybody with an enthusiasm for 2V per cylinder sporting Guzzis would be interested in anything being made now, totally different concepts of motorcycling and if you like one you don't like the other - at least that's my experience.  The supposed benefits of the modern bikes "engineered to an incredible level" are pointless to me (some might say totally silly) in comparison with having a lower tech, more elegant sport bike that I enjoy owning and riding more.

That aside, I've had both an 1100 Sport and Daytona RS and in that format both engines have their appeal.  The 1100 Sport handles a little better, much as my ST2 Ducati handled a little better than my ST4.  The top end rush of the more complex engines is great and somewhat addictive, but you give up a little in handling.  Building a hot rod with either of those lighter engines is a great idea, although the result probably won't as smooth and tractable as the 4V per cylinder version - the trade off for a lighter bike.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2018, 09:48:38 AM by Tusayan »

Online molly

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Re: Re Bore of Griso 1100 engine.
« Reply #44 on: December 13, 2018, 10:14:02 AM »
I've just come back from a 5C ride on slimy country roads on my 75bhp Griso 1100 and be o honest any more power would have been unnecessary . I envy riders who experience well shod roads in balm temperatures but here in Blighty the Griso is perfect as it is.
Dave

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Offline guzzisteve

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Re: Re Bore of Griso 1100 engine.
« Reply #45 on: December 13, 2018, 11:01:20 AM »
  You can make a 'Grenade'(as Pete calls them) and spend big $ on it to get there. What you can't do is ride it at 8500-9000RPM. A very thin yellow line. They can be reliable too and be fun. You'll spend your money over again if you don't pay attention and get caught up in the moment.
You can also get almost twice the CFM out of the G11 heads, just ask Mr Rich.  :boozing:
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Offline Kristian

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Re: Re Bore of Griso 1100 engine.
« Reply #46 on: December 13, 2018, 12:55:55 PM »

 In a straight line the vaguely stock (stock they were an almost unrideable tuning mess so not many are actually stock) 1100 sport will run out of gearing and rpm at about the same time an A kit daytona and only the A kit will run out of grunt and aerodynamics, I seriously doubt the 1100 sport can pull any taller gearing. The C Kit motors as fitted to the Racing and RS will piss all over it, a well set up Ducati 1000DS (two valve aircooled motor) will also have it for breakfast.


Wide agreement here. My favorite saying these days is that a bridge abutment does not care one whit whether you hit it going 100 miles an hour or 160 miles an hour; you spatter just the same.

Original Daytonas and Sport 1100's had nearly identical performance figures, with the sport having a touch quicker quarter-mile times and also weighing 30 pounds less. Motorcyclist and the German magazines got about 135 - 138 mph out of Sports and Daytonas, with Cycle World running high 11's at 115 mph. God knows what they had to do to make it do that, poor clutch. That's still 5 mph short of, say, a 1982 Suzuki GS 1000; or 15 mph short of a 2000 Aprilia Mille...

The Sport 1100 engine certainly was maxed out; some poster above said something about camshaft profiles and duration, but that evidences a lack of understanding of the serious limits imposed by the rockers on valve lift, the stock big valve heads' inability to make use of valve lift above 8-9 millimeters, well short of the 10.5 mm available, and the exponential increase in valvetrain stress and pressures from using higher lift cams with more duration.

It *is* fun to have the feeling of nearly unlimited power. My 2000 ZX Ė 12R gave you that feeling in spades. But, as with anything limitless, it ends up having limits elsewhere; and that bike was severely limited in its day-to-day usefulness and fun to ride quotient. Call it the Dorian Gray syndrome. It was only exhilarating when you were lined up behind 10 slow cars on a country road and annihilating them all, hitting 150+ miles per hour by the time you pulled in ahead of the lead car. All very dangerous and adding a huge additional element of severe risk to riding motorcycles.

But, the Sport 1100 is multiple orders of magnitude more fun to ride, still more satisfying for me even than a Ducati 1299 Panigale. Maybe that just makes me a geezer. I look forward to even starting the damn thing. It is the closest and most recently made motorcycle equivalency to a late 1960s Porsche 911 racecar on the street.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2018, 02:22:32 PM by Kristian »

Offline rocker59

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Re: Re Bore of Griso 1100 engine.
« Reply #47 on: December 13, 2018, 01:33:32 PM »

The carb'd Sport 1100 engine is my favorite Guzzi engine, of all the ones I've ridden.

With Staintunes and Keihin FCR41s, it makes the right kind of power for the chassis. 

Love the bike, though I'm getting a little too creaky to ride it.
Michael T.
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Re: Re Bore of Griso 1100 engine.
« Reply #48 on: December 13, 2018, 01:44:25 PM »


..Love the bike, though I'm getting a little too creaky to ride it.

Yes,sir. I actually got there about 2 years earlier in age than you  :boozing:
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Re: Re Bore of Griso 1100 engine.
« Reply #49 on: December 13, 2018, 01:54:42 PM »
The carb'd Sport 1100 engine is my favorite Guzzi engine, of all the ones I've ridden.

With Staintunes and Keihin FCR41s, it makes the right kind of power for the chassis. 

Love the bike, though I'm getting a little too creaky to ride it.

 Rode an S1000RR a few years ago , the magazines all wrote about how comfortable they are compared to other sport bikes , they lied  :grin:

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Re: Re Bore of Griso 1100 engine.
« Reply #50 on: December 13, 2018, 02:15:57 PM »
....and the logarithmic increase in valvetrain stress and pressures from using higher lift cams with more duration.

I suppose you meant to say "exponential"? Logarithmic increase is less than linear.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2018, 02:17:11 PM by Moto »
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Offline Kristian

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Re: Re Bore of Griso 1100 engine.
« Reply #51 on: December 13, 2018, 02:20:14 PM »
I suppose you meant to say "exponential"? Logarithmic increase is less than linear.

Yes, that one! Busy morning.

Offline 5154guzzi

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Re: Re Bore of Griso 1100 engine.
« Reply #52 on: December 17, 2018, 10:50:11 AM »
" To really make it obvious: Nothing you do to any Guzzi will make it nearly as fast as a stock, used, $4K Yamaha R6. You'll just make your poor Guzzi suffer and far less reliable. "

 I don't agree with the above statement regarding Moto Guzzi top speed ( Fast ? ) potential, and that's where the argue for limitations quote was mentioned, not the use of sheer will to overcome physics, such as gravity.       So how fast is a used R6 ?

 Been around engines and Guzzis for many years , and will just say, I`ve had different experiences with what a good cam will do with a well designed engine package. not based on lack of understanding, but experience.  I`m still always learning though, especially when it comes to drinking others koolaid. 

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Re: Re Bore of Griso 1100 engine.
« Reply #53 on: December 17, 2018, 12:48:59 PM »
not the use of sheer will to overcome physics, such as gravity.       
Gravity..??? :popcorn:

Offline pete roper

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Re: Re Bore of Griso 1100 engine.
« Reply #54 on: December 17, 2018, 03:17:18 PM »
" To really make it obvious: Nothing you do to any Guzzi will make it nearly as fast as a stock, used, $4K Yamaha R6. You'll just make your poor Guzzi suffer and far less reliable. "

 I don't agree with the above statement regarding Moto Guzzi top speed ( Fast ? ) potential, and that's where the argue for limitations quote was mentioned, not the use of sheer will to overcome physics, such as gravity.       So how fast is a used R6 ?

 Been around engines and Guzzis for many years , and will just say, I`ve had different experiences with what a good cam will do with a well designed engine package. not based on lack of understanding, but experience.  I`m still always learning though, especially when it comes to drinking others koolaid.

But there is a huge difference between building a motor for the salt and building one that can be ridden reliably every day. I know you can built fast motors, you have the records to prove it, but how often does your LSR motor get rebuilt? How tractable is it? My guess is it would be a pig of a street motor.

Pete

Offline meccanicab

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Re: Re Bore of Griso 1100 engine.
« Reply #55 on: December 17, 2018, 03:50:57 PM »
My aim hear is to make the bike more fun, with a better punch out of corners, plus not running out of steam to quickly.
I don't know if the 4v has had the same problems as in the UK, but ALL the dealers (3) I know warned me off trading in due to the far lower reliability. This opinion is based on the amount of 4v's which per units sold, which where returned to the dealers with issues under warranty.
I'm what would be called a 'spirited rider'. The Griso is a good package, but any manufacturer has to compromise when designing a bike for the regulations within the different markets, plus scale of economy. Just getting a big litre aircooled engine through the emission tests for holomagation means the engine is set to run weak at certain points within the rev range, this affects the MPG. With re tuned ECU, my bike returns a far better MPG than the std set up.
As an example, I have sitting in the garage a Monster 1200r. This is my serious fun bike. By that I mean it's 'mental' compared with the Griso. Power wheels in the first 4 gears without trying, turns on a pin and can give any litre size bike a run for its money. The suspension, brakes and throttle response are as good as you can find on any litre sports bike.
Where am I going with this? My aim is not to turn my Griso into a Ducati Monster, rather personalize the bike with the handling, brakes and performance, whilst keeping the reliability.
Anyway, I've decided to have the heads flowed and ported as the next step.....

Please keep the comments coming.
I ride into mainland Europe regularly, out of the two, the Griso is my first choice every time. Comfortable, easy to ride, plenty of soft luggage space, and still turns heads for the styling.

Offline 5154guzzi

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Re: Re Bore of Griso 1100 engine.
« Reply #56 on: December 17, 2018, 04:27:53 PM »
  Agree with you Pete , my LSR would make a terrible street engine, not much bottom end, and not designed to go 100 K miles.  If it did, it certainly wouldn't be competitive.   I`m not suggesting James turn his Griso motor into something like my Lemans 1000 , but I do believe there is meat on the table for improved performance without sacrificing reliability, that's all..   

 My LSR engine has never had a full rebuild , but it is probably due for one.

 Back to my question,  How fast would a Guzzi have to go to hand a can of Ass Whoop to a used R6 ,  street legal or not ?

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Re: Re Bore of Griso 1100 engine.
« Reply #57 on: December 17, 2018, 05:18:43 PM »
  Agree with you Pete , my LSR would make a terrible street engine, not much bottom end, and not designed to go 100 K miles.  If it did, it certainly wouldn't be competitive.   I`m not suggesting James turn his Griso motor into something like my Lemans 1000 , but I do believe there is meat on the table for improved performance without sacrificing reliability, that's all..   

 My LSR engine has never had a full rebuild , but it is probably due for one.

 Back to my question,  How fast would a Guzzi have to go to hand a can of Ass Whoop to a used R6 ,  street legal or not ?

The R 6 is out to 116.7 hp acording to google crank or wheel I have no idea, however the bike is also lighter than any of the big blocks, so you will need to make more and a fair wack more than that just to keep up so I think we are crawling into MGS-01 terrirtory 130ish hp. More importantly IMO is the spool up speed of the R6 or any modern inline four or twin for that matter compared to the relatively long stroke of the Guzzi, the Guzzi would also need more gearing as most of them run out of rpm and gearing around 230kph mark unless its a Griso that annectdotally its all over by 180kph (possibly only the two valve version).

We haven't talked about handling yet either, around corners heavier bike with longer wheel base and lazier steering do you intend to make up the deficit in a straight line? There is also no slipper clutch avliable for the Guzzi a motor that probablly would truely benifit from it, as I mentioned its rolling a turd in glitter. Could it be done, probablly but you could buy two or three new R6's for the cost or one R1 with some cash left over for go faster bits and a few go faster courses for the rider. You'd have a motor with all the reliability of a nail bomb, espcially if you limited yourself to the two valve something about, poo, pointy sticks and a steep incline.

Offline pete roper

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Re: Re Bore of Griso 1100 engine.
« Reply #58 on: December 17, 2018, 05:39:16 PM »

 Back to my question,  How fast would a Guzzi have to go to hand a can of Ass Whoop to a used R6 ,  street legal or not ?

Well obviously a lot of that would depend on how well looked after it had been. Most of the Squiddy types will tell you that "Jap 4's are worn out by 20,000 miles." or some such stuff and nonsense. I believe that the reason for that is simply because a lot of them never have anything done to them beyond oil and filter changes! When the valves go off or the tb's go out of sync they don't run as well, their suspension never gets looked at, chassis bearings are never checked so they begin to wobble so they are 'Worn out'.

As to how fast they are? In absolute terms I have no idea but a correctly tuned and set up 600 Supersport will easily make 100HP at the wheel and they're so light you have to put a brick on the seat to stop them blowing away in a light breeze. They are fast. Gear them for top speed alone and I'm sure they could be terrifyingly fast but going that sort of speed is well above my pay grade! I get a bit of wee coming out when I hit an indicated 200 on the Griso!

I honestly believe that you wouldn't be able to build any Guzzi, (With the possible exception of an MGS-01.) that would be able to outrun a well set up 600 SS. I'm more than happy to be proven wrong.

As for the OP's bike certainly some flow work will pay dividends but the throttlebody choke size and port size is a limiting factor. Getting a pair of V11 heads, twin plugging them and using the larger TB's and mapping to suit coupled with flow work might make a significant difference. Just speculation.

Pete

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Re: Re Bore of Griso 1100 engine.
« Reply #59 on: December 17, 2018, 07:05:12 PM »
I have no idea... the Guzzi would also need more gearing as most of them run out of rpm and gearing around 230kph mark unless its a Griso that annectdotally its all over by 180kph (possibly only the two valve version).

Motorcycle Consumer News recorded the top speed of the 2-valve Griso at 129.3 mph (208 kph), not the 112 mph (180 kph) you pulled out of your derriere. The 4-valve went 143.95 mph (231.6 kph).

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1976 850-T3
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