Author Topic: Sporti lost gears: UPDATES  (Read 711 times)

Online Mr Revhead

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Sporti lost gears: UPDATES
« on: December 12, 2018, 03:09:01 AM »
So, excited me got my 97 Sporti today! And after waiting all day until I finished work I went for my first ride on it!
It came home on a trailer :(

No gears, stalled as I approached a light, restarted fine, was in neutral. Green light, and can't select gears! Lever moves and returns fine, but won't select anything :( Moves everything fine into the box
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zane9LtQQI8

There is no ratcheting, clicks or clunks to be felt, only the return spring action.

Also... had stopped half way a mates place and he noticed this slop in bevel drive, I assume that is not normal? Looking at the parts pages everything is there, nothing missing and everything is tight... Clues? What would usually stop that movement?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBy3Vu1FUFo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNmjsyd5Cqc

I've been in touch with the seller, he replaced the clutch on it very recently. He has offered a full refund and to take it back, but he's at the other end of the country and it's not cheap to transport. So I would rather see about rectifying these issues and keeping it.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2018, 06:32:26 PM by Mr Revhead »

Online Mr Revhead

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Re: Sporti lost gears
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2018, 03:46:19 AM »
https://photos.app.goo.gl/PaVAX535q5DR748bA

Anyone with one of these confirm part 35 should maybe go where that movement is? Or is it meant to be flush inside the housing?


Online pete roper

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Re: Sporti lost gears
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2018, 04:40:57 AM »
Looking at the video the lever isn't moving far enough to even attempt to turn the drum. Have you tried rocking the bike fore and aft while maintaining pressure on the lever, clutch in, engine running or not? It may simply be the dogs not engaging.

With the bevelbox there is a spacing washer missing, who knows what else is missing or fuctup. Are the shaft trunnions aligned? Looks like it could be a headache.

Pete

Online Old Jock

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Re: Sporti lost gears
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2018, 05:30:37 AM »
https://photos.app.goo.gl/PaVAX535q5DR748bA

Anyone with one of these confirm part 35 should maybe go where that movement is? Or is it meant to be flush inside the housing?

Mine is bolted up tight at the moment but the edge of the bevel box looks flush with the swinging arm & the drive is solid, no lateral play at all (one of the few parts on this bike that does appear to work but that's another story for another time)

This is a Magni therefore different swinging arms but I think the spacer is countersunk into the bevel box.

For certainty I'd wait for a Guzzi Sporti owner to confirm

I looked at that video quite a few times and thought exactly what Pete replied, that the lever was not moving far enough in any direction to allow the drum to turn and select a gear.

Pete has already said it, but these boxes can be quite Errrrrr............ ...agricultural and can prove recalcitrant.

Rock it, pull the clutch in and give it a bit of drag, or get it onto a paddock stand and rotate the rear wheel with the clutch out while maintaining some pressure on the gear lever.............. .all if these should be done without the engine running (just so as we are clear)

There may be absolutely nothing wrong with the box, a Japanese or Ducati box they are not and it takes a little time to understand their foibles (dealers call it personality). Once understood you can make them shift quite smoothly (most of the time), but click and forget they aren't, there is a technique to shifting with them.

Oh and for God's sake place no faith in the neutral light whatsoever, or you'll be learning how to pick it up.

I think your float on the bevel box and the non selection of gears are 2 different issues

Just what I see an opinion is all I can offer at this point

Offline Murray

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Re: Sporti lost gears
« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2018, 05:59:06 AM »
As others have said that's not enough travel to actually select a gear. The fact the gear leaver is returning to the neutral position suggests the return spring is ok.

Online arveno

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Re: Sporti lost gears
« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2018, 07:04:23 AM »

 try to unscrew the shift lever rod to give more travel to the shift pedal.

Offline Murray

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Re: Sporti lost gears
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2018, 07:52:00 AM »
It its possible that you have a straight cut gearbox, if you think the helical cut five speeder is agricultural. So engine running clutch in and apply constant positive pressure on the gear lever positive pressure not to be confused with stand on the !@#$ING thing slowly start sneaking the clutch out and normally with a bit of a clunk you'll get first obviously pull the clutch back in as soon as you achieve this. The other thing is make sure the clutch is working as advertised.

Offline Rough Edge racing

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Re: Sporti lost gears
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2018, 08:48:09 AM »
It its possible that you have a straight cut gearbox, if you think the helical cut five speeder is agricultural. So engine running clutch in and apply constant positive pressure on the gear lever positive pressure not to be confused with stand on the !@#$ING thing slowly start sneaking the clutch out and normally with a bit of a clunk you'll get first obviously pull the clutch back in as soon as you achieve this. The other thing is make sure the clutch is working as advertised.

 I believe it's the gear changing mechanism and not the cut of the gears ,if that's what you mean...
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Offline pressureangle

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Re: Sporti lost gears
« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2018, 09:38:18 AM »
My newly-rebuilt 5 speed did precisely what you're showing here, because I'd left the output shaft nut untorqued and as it backed out and let the shaft run forward, things knotted up. Fortunately no damage and all was well with a good snugging. Might pull the shaft off and have a look, and note whether the pinch bolts are tight or not, and if the splines are gripping the shaft. It seems iirc that more than a few have had slack even though the bolts were tight. I could remove mine on both ends as it came to me.
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Offline rocker59

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Re: Sporti lost gears
« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2018, 09:56:49 AM »

With engine running:

1) pull in clutch lever
2) push down on gear lever.  Keep lever pushed down.
3) slowly release clutch lever.  You should feel the transmission clunk into 1st gear.
4) remove food from shift lever, continue to release clutch lever, enjoy the ride.

These transmissions do not like to shift while sitting still.  At a stop, some friction on the clutch is required to get it into 1st gear.

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Offline Howard R

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Re: Sporti lost gears
« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2018, 10:02:39 AM »
https://photos.app.goo.gl/PaVAX535q5DR748bA

Anyone with one of these confirm part 35 should maybe go where that movement is? Or is it meant to be flush inside the housing?

My '96 looks to be the same, and those parts enable the anti-jacking system to work.  The torque reaction rod (analogous to the BMW paralever and the later Guzzi CARC) holds the outer housing still while the bearing (2 & 2A, being respectively the needle bearing with outer race and separate inner race) allows the inner part to rotate.  Parts 34 & 35 clamp the bearing race when the axle is tightened.  So yes, part 35 has to be there.  My bearing & spacer suffered damage from rust, and I found a stainless steel shim washer from an industrial supply house that was close enough to the original dimensions it has worked fine for me for several years.  The dimensions are 25 mm ID x 38 mm OD and 1.6 mm thick.  I have a couple extra, if you PM me an address I'll stick one in an envelope and mail it to you.

try to unscrew the shift lever rod to give more travel to the shift pedal.

No, it's a bit hard to tell from the video but it looks to me like the shift pedal might be hitting the frame at the bottom of the stroke so you need more downward travel.  I would start by taking the shift arm off of the gearbox shaft and moving it up at least one notch, then adjust the linkage from there.  Maybe try using a crescent wrench on the arm with the pedal linkage disconnected to see if the box will engage gears that way.  If so, proceed with linkage adjustment.  If not, your day is going get a lot worse.

Good luck!

Howard



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Offline bodine99

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Re: Sporti lost gears
« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2018, 10:08:43 AM »
Detent arm probably broke. belt still there with all its chicklets

cassett gear cluster easy to remove. the rubber mounts, engine out to disassemble and get to trans. great idea
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Online Mr Revhead

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Re: Sporti lost gears
« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2018, 12:46:04 PM »
First up, thanks everyone who has replied, I really appreciate it.   :thumb:
I also have an 03 California and I've had that apart and re shimmed and replaced the plastic caged bearings so I am used to Guzzi boxes, the Sport actually shifted better than the Cali, until it wouldn't shift at all.
I have tried the rocking, slowly release clutch, rock bike thing a few times, push the bike whilst trying the lever tricks, no change. Some times the Cali won't get first without a ease off on the clutch and a retry so tried all that.

The shift lever is moving enough I believe, it might be the angle I shot it from, it's not hitting anything either. I will however take another closer look at that today.
But if it's not moving enough then something weird has happened inside hasn't it! It has been suggested to me on a facebook group that the detent spring has broken inside the selector and wont pick up a detent. That makes sense with what I am feeling on the lever.
Guess I'll have to open it up to see. At least there were no horrible noises and a huge lock up at speed, and it will give me a chance to check a bunch of other things. It should be ok though, the previous owner is a bit of a Guzzi collector and not a muppet, I think he just had a bad day when doing this job.

The bevel drive, HowardR thanks for your offer! I'm in New Zealand so it will be a lost faster and easier to locate a replacement here I think. I do however still wish to confirm that part 35 in that pic sits OUTSIDE the bevel housing taking up that gap, given my movement, a 1.6 wise spacer there would be exactly what it needs. However I don't want to just put one there if it's actually another issue.

Thanks again for the helps guys. If a Sporti owner comes along I really would appreciate a clear pic of that bevel drive/swing arm relationship to confirm that washer.

« Last Edit: December 12, 2018, 02:19:57 PM by Mr Revhead »

Online Old Jock

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Re: Sporti lost gears
« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2018, 02:16:22 PM »
Send a PM to rocker59 and/or MedicAndy

Rocker is a mediator and has replied in this thread, MedicAndy has God alone knows how many Sports he collects them

My bike has Sport running gear but being a Magni it's a bit different in the Bevel to Swingarm department

John

Online Mr Revhead

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Re: Sporti lost gears
« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2018, 02:21:59 PM »
Send a PM to rocker59 and/or MedicAndy

Rocker is a mediator and has replied in this thread, MedicAndy has God alone knows how many Sports he collects them

My bike has Sport running gear but being a Magni it's a bit different in the Bevel to Swingarm department

John

Thanks Jock, yes I am aware of and jealous of Andys collection! At least he has back ups to ride when one fails!  :bike-037:

Offline pressureangle

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Re: Sporti lost gears
« Reply #15 on: December 12, 2018, 02:42:53 PM »


Finished 10k miles on mine, obviously haven't cleaned it yet...

« Last Edit: December 12, 2018, 02:43:38 PM by pressureangle »
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Online Mr Revhead

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Re: Sporti lost gears
« Reply #16 on: December 12, 2018, 02:45:28 PM »
That pic is perfect, thank you very much. That visually confirms I am missing that washer/spacer. Shouldn't be hard to sort that.
Thank you very much  :thumb:

Online Mr Revhead

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Re: Sporti lost gears
« Reply #17 on: December 12, 2018, 05:29:22 PM »
Looking at the video the lever isn't moving far enough to even attempt to turn the drum. Have you tried rocking the bike fore and aft while maintaining pressure on the lever, clutch in, engine running or not? It may simply be the dogs not engaging.

With the bevelbox there is a spacing washer missing, who knows what else is missing or fuctup. Are the shaft trunnions aligned? Looks like it could be a headache.

Pete

ten points to this man! I compared the movement to my Cali, and yeah it's not turning the shift arm enough. So after some jigging and poking, I just shoved it hard. Clunk.  :shocked:
Shifts fine now.... Haven't ridden it yet (wet and popped home for lunch) But started it up and shifted ok... But last night I swear nothing I did worked!
I think when I stalled it, it was between gears and that coupled with clutch adjustment that I think isn't correct caused it to be stuck somewhere weird and now seems ok! Much relief! And some confusion! Will tinker with adjustment tonight and see how it goes. Now I'm off to source a spacer for the rear

Online pete roper

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Re: Sporti lost gears
« Reply #18 on: December 12, 2018, 06:28:09 PM »
I'd also strongly suggest you double check the alignment of the drive shaft trunnions. If the PO was the sort of person who could overlook the bevelbox floating side to side by several mm chances are they also don't realise the importance of aligning the shaft.

Pete

Online Mr Revhead

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Re: Sporti lost gears
« Reply #19 on: December 12, 2018, 07:39:44 PM »
Will do!!  :thumb:

Online Mr Revhead

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Re: Sporti lost gears
« Reply #20 on: December 14, 2018, 04:34:03 PM »
I'd also strongly suggest you double check the alignment of the drive shaft trunnions. If the PO was the sort of person who could overlook the bevelbox floating side to side by several mm chances are they also don't realise the importance of aligning the shaft.

Pete

Can you confirm the correct alignment? It is out. I know the joints work in phase, but is that all the grease nipples in line, or is it with them 180deg to each half?

Offline wirespokes

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Re: Sporti lost gears
« Reply #21 on: December 14, 2018, 05:37:33 PM »
With my old Volvos with three UJoints they had to be installed in the same plane. For example - if looking at the shaft end-wise and say the first UJoint was positioned so the ends are at 3 and 9, all the rest should be positioned the same.

Online Mr Revhead

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Re: Sporti lost gears: Updates
« Reply #22 on: December 14, 2018, 06:32:11 PM »
Ok, have determined the gearbox is not at fault. I have gears.

What I don't have is proper clutch adjustment/action.

Before I rode it the first time, clutch adjustment and free play was one check I made, no free play. So adjusted that at the cable. had 1-2mm play at the push rod.
On my short two part ride, that altered and I made another cable adjustment at the bars.
After my break down I noticed the end of the screw adjuster in the lever was hard against the swing arm and the end of the top hat thing in the end of the box was protruding about 4mm. WTF  :shocked:

So I rang the previous owner and quizzed him on it. He said when he replaced the clutch, it wouldn't work. So he pulled it all apart and checked for plates around the wrong way, push rod length etc, all checked out, still no go. Then he found reference on the net to some aftermarket clutches being thicker and needing a 5mm ball bearing inserted to add some length to enable the clutch to work. So he did that. That explains the protruding top hat and why everything is further out/back than it should be.

So I've pulled the swing arm out, pulled the clutch rod out and removed the extra ball bearing and spent some time measuring the depth of the housing, length of the top hat/thrust assembly and I conclude that with that assembly sitting flush with the rear of the box (like my Cali) I still have 7.5 ish of travel in there before it can't go any further. Eyeballing the Cali's movement, about 4mm is all that moves and it's fine. So I don't think that's the issue.

SO, what I think I have found is a combination of new clutch, worn adjuster screw (it's 17mm not 20 as Gutsibits list a new one being) and possibly a worn stretched cable means adjustment is near the end of it's travel and is very finicky.
I've been turning the output shaft by hand and working the clutch and have it adjusted so there is about 1mm clearance at the screw, and I can turn the shaft in gear with clutch in by hand. I figure that's plenty of clutch action. It can't slip as there is free play at the push rod end.
So all that is left now is to reassemble and see what happens. If all is good, I'll order a new adjuster and cable and fit those.

Fingers crossed lads!

Offline wrbix

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Re: Sporti lost gears: UPDATES
« Reply #23 on: December 14, 2018, 07:40:21 PM »
A reaffirmation of the old aviatorsí maxim: ďwhen something goes amiss, address that which was last manipulatedĒ - often a life saver in engine-outs.
In this case, clutch had recently been replaced by PO.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2018, 07:41:08 PM by wrbix »
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Offline voncrump

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Re: Sporti lost gears: UPDATES
« Reply #24 on: December 14, 2018, 08:02:09 PM »
I am sorry I couldnít help earlier on with this.
We were away from home and then have had internet problems.
It seems you are getting it sorted,
I replaced my clutch and ended up screwing the adjuster almost through the lock nut to get the free play.
I hadnít heard of the ball bearing trick.
I replaced the cable at the same time and I now have a lot of cable flex that takes up in the outer cable.
I adjust it so it has almost zero clearance at the lever when itís cold.
When it warms up it changes to a little too much clearance.
Itís a fine line between loading the throwout when itís cold and proper disengagement when itís hot.
I have been told there is a shorter cable available that has less of a bend just behind the instruments.
This is where it flexes the outer.
Anyway you have had some good bonding time with the new beast.
Now ride it.
Cheers, voncrump.


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Online Mr Revhead

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Re: Sporti lost gears: UPDATES
« Reply #25 on: December 14, 2018, 10:54:03 PM »
Cheers Von Crump, might investigate that alternative cable.

Test ride went well!! :thumb:
Couple of small jobs and I'll be clocking up the smiles in no time  :bike-037:

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