Author Topic: What would a new Guzzi look like with the WOW factor and mass appeal?  (Read 2862 times)

Offline Toecutter

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Re: What would a new Guzzi look like with the WOW factor and mass appeal?
« Reply #60 on: February 11, 2019, 09:35:01 AM »
If you want to see choppers in my area look no further than CL under motorcycles for sale.

Look at the TOTD slayer with only 850 pain free miles on it and for only $22,000 it can be yours



You and I have a different definitions of choppers, it appears. Get off of CL and spend some time hanging out with young people cutting and welding and customizing in garages, making that shitty old bike into something unique, personal and really cool. I live in one of the least populous places in my country, and, even here, the garage builder and shadetree mechanic scene is going strong. 

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Re: What would a new Guzzi look like with the WOW factor and mass appeal?
« Reply #61 on: February 11, 2019, 09:51:17 AM »
Really? How many times does his name need to be attached to failure to make it complete?
EB didn't fail HD did. The XB platform is superior to any Guzzi. Fuel in frame, belt drive, perimeter brake, 103HP

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8E8Pv-NWhd8
« Last Edit: February 11, 2019, 09:57:42 AM by fotoguzzi »
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Online xackley

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Re: What would a new Guzzi look like with the WOW factor and mass appeal?
« Reply #62 on: February 11, 2019, 10:48:58 AM »
Put the new 850 into a 1973 eldorado
1958 R69 BMW, 1972 R75/5, 1980 yamaha XS650, 1982 GL1100, 2003 EV, 2007 Triumph America.
All on the road, going nowhere in particular.

Online rocker59

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Re: What would a new Guzzi look like with the WOW factor and mass appeal?
« Reply #63 on: February 11, 2019, 11:02:06 AM »
EB didn't fail HD did. The XB platform is superior to any Guzzi. Fuel in frame, belt drive, perimeter brake, 103HP


I have always like Erik Buell, and I agree that HD mis-managed Buell and bailed on them.

However, the three items you list don't make Buell superior to any particular motorcycle.  Fuel in Frame is interesting and a nice innovation. Belt drive is OK but I wouldn't say superior to shaft or chain. The perimeter brakes were a 1990s gimmick/fad that didn't excel in the real world.  Though his wheel/brake assembly was light, the Rotational Inertia was bad.  Smaller diameter brake rotors help a bike steer better.

His innovations were things like the short wheelbase and chassis geometry that no one else was using.  Fuel in frame.  Under frame exhaust.  The belt drive's tensioner.  Etc.

I have followed Erik's exploits since the early 1980s.  The FXR chassis was nice.  Buying the surplus XR1000 engines and using them in a sportsbike was cool  (RR1000).  If Erik has one fault, it's hanging onto ideas which don't work.  He doesn't seem to let go of things he likes, despite other proven solutions that are better.  Perimeter brakes being the most glaring example.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2019, 11:19:46 AM by rocker59 »
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Offline bmp72

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Re: What would a new Guzzi look like with the WOW factor and mass appeal?
« Reply #64 on: February 11, 2019, 12:09:15 PM »

This one but with a 350 cc Falcone engine  :laugh: , what this Honda shares with the Falcone is the single flat cilinder, Honda is only 125cc in a small feeling bike.

I love these Hondas, got the 110cc predecessor.

Guzzi is missing a good motor in the 1100 cc range. The big blocks are too big a bikes and the smallblocks just dont have the freight frain feel of old bikes like the LM3....

Cause that is what I miss, the freight train feel in a bike the size of the V9 bobber.

From my Honda nc750cD i cam say a dct automatic would also be nice.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2019, 12:11:19 PM by bmp72 »

Offline SED

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Re: What would a new Guzzi look like with the WOW factor and mass appeal?
« Reply #65 on: February 11, 2019, 12:47:45 PM »
Sadly I agree with the above because Guzzi no longer build competitive motorbikes. They, or their masters, have decided that the 'Brand' should only build fashion accessories that appeal to those who like the *Idea* of a motorbike without actually knowing or understanding anything about them. It seems to be a viable business strategy as they continue to build and 'Develop' the miserable smallblock platform rather than shit-canning the whole lot and starting anew.

Pete

Maybe Piaggio has decided that the big block platform is too heavy to be anything but a cruiser so instead they will incrementally increase the performance of the small block - 6 spd box, head redesign, expandable engine, 2 u-joint driveshaft.  Maybe a modern frame/rear suspension is next?   
« Last Edit: February 11, 2019, 01:27:26 PM by SED »
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Offline SED

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Re: What would a new Guzzi look like with the WOW factor and mass appeal?
« Reply #66 on: February 11, 2019, 12:52:15 PM »
Was the old loop frame on display inside the 1-Moto Show or parked outside by a rider attending the event?





It was tucked in a back corner under a leaky roof  :rolleyes:   Carl's other bike was the 200 mph twin engine Ducati with the Osborn Engineering Company steering - https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=99728.0
1983 LeMans III
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Offline Muzz

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Re: What would a new Guzzi look like with the WOW factor and mass appeal?
« Reply #67 on: February 11, 2019, 01:59:21 PM »
I'm suprised people think the V7 is an "around town" bike. I must be well hard to have ridden mine (ok it is a B750) 53,000 miles with trips as far as the Pyrenees and back from Roscoff, Scotland and back from Plymouth, etc etc...

I agree Scotty.  I find my B750 tours just as well as it does around town. Comfortable even with a torn hammie, and it does the "speed limit" no trouble at all.

I still get people coming up and saying what a beautiful looking bike it is, and then when told I have owned it for 14 years be most surprised.
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Offline Murray

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Re: What would a new Guzzi look like with the WOW factor and mass appeal?
« Reply #68 on: February 11, 2019, 03:24:37 PM »
Maybe Piaggio has decided that the big block platform is too heavy to be anything but a cruiser so instead they will incrementally increase the performance of the small block - 6 spd box, head redesign, expandable engine, 2 u-joint driveshaft.  Maybe a modern frame/rear suspension is next?   

If they let go of the pointless rubber mounting and got rid of the stupidity in the injection at idle it would be a lot lighter, 2 joint shaft drive just like they had in 1992?

Offline Milosh

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Re: What would a new Guzzi look like with the WOW factor and mass appeal?
« Reply #69 on: February 11, 2019, 05:51:32 PM »
This is just an outsider's perspective.

First on Buell. Not many motorcyclists take him seriously. Failures at HD, at his own company (twice), and the perception that he "falls up" is not a good look. If any of his innovations were any good at all, you'd see them on production and (more importantly) race bikes.

I've always seen MG as the Italian cruiser brand. Probably because I say more Nevadas on the road than anything else when I was younger.

I think the V9 range is a bit of a miss because of the styling. The Bobber's tank is too angular and the Roamer's lines don't look right.

I would fire those guys in California right away just for ruining those designs. Because...

If they made the V9 look anything like this

 they could have at least made a dent in the Millennial Generation. The bike looks authentic and capable like a Scrambler or one of those new Huskys.

The V7s are great. They look great, sound great, and at current discounts, are affordable. I think they just need better marketing.

Offline Tusayan

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Re: What would a new Guzzi look like with the WOW factor and mass appeal?
« Reply #70 on: February 11, 2019, 06:36:16 PM »
Harley engined Buells were becoming quite popular in the Alps in the last 3 or 4 years before HD stopped selling them, and still get much more resale value in (say) Germany than in the US.  The reason is that theyíre simple to own and maintain, and they work very well for mountain road and urban street use - they are not race bikes.  Then right at that point, with Buell gaining ground with a function driven overseas market for arguably the first time in HD history, in the Alps for Gods sake, management snatched defeat from the jaws of victory and settled into their current downhill slump.  HDís lack of savvy outside of their introspective world is remarkable - they canít even recognize when they are succeeding.

Buell were the last new bikes that got my attention in any serious way.  The V85TT appeals a bit, but mainly because it promises to be simple, have some character and be easy to maintain, like a Buell but minus the same high level of mountain road performance. On the other hand a small block with a bit more power may be very pleasant.

Fairly obviously Piaggio is trying to work Guzzi into one engine, the small block. The 1400 cruiser engine and the bike it propels appear to be a dead end in terms of the total volume of future sales, and copying BMW with the CARC bikes didnít make money. 
« Last Edit: February 11, 2019, 08:24:06 PM by Tusayan »

Online bad Chad

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Re: What would a new Guzzi look like with the WOW factor and mass appeal?
« Reply #71 on: February 11, 2019, 08:04:00 PM »
Im guessing that the 1400 is not a dead end.  I suspect it will be put in some more interesting configurations than we have now.   
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Online TN Mark

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Re: What would a new Guzzi look like with the WOW factor and mass appeal?
« Reply #72 on: February 11, 2019, 11:47:52 PM »
Im guessing that the 1400 is not a dead end.  I suspect it will be put in some more interesting configurations than we have now.

I hope you're right. But there's a long way to go on these bikes to make them palatable for the 'masses' and to make them look at and say "WOW".

As has been posted above, the majority of the California (USA) based 'design' team should not be allowed to design for the Moto Guzzi brand any longer. My exception is I do like the basic design flow of the Eldorado 1400. But clearly I'm in the minority. To sell these 3 model year old bikes the prices seemingly have to be cut to used bike price levels.

If you don't want world known builders like I mentioned earlier, ok, no problem. Park the bikes (1400 and the V7) in a senior design class at the Pasadena Design Center in Pasadena, CA. But only give the students the frame, engine/trans/drive shaft, and wheels. No wires, no body parts, no seat, no bars, no fenders etc. Nothing but a rolling chassis. Let the students design what they see as a finished package.

Better yet, present the students with just the engine/trans/driveshaft with a rear drive on a wooden crate. I'm guessing they'd come up with some awesome original and unique frame, suspension and body work designs. And yes, I'm sure many would result in a wow factor. Most would likely look like a complete motorcycle instead of a collection of loosely based parts.

Most of the bikes the garage crowd 'builds' for events like the Dirtbag Challenge have a lot of wow factor. New bikes in a Moto Guzzi showroom, not so much. Of course just finding a Moto Guzzi showroom is also a huge challenge for way too many.

Offline Luap McKeever

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Re: What would a new Guzzi look like with the WOW factor and mass appeal?
« Reply #73 on: February 12, 2019, 07:07:52 AM »
Let Guzzi be Guzzi , they can't compete with the bigger companies in the high performance market . Remember , Aprilia probably sells fewer bikes than Guzzi does , and they have some serious street cred in that market . Fix the way the company interacts with its dealers , improve quality control at the origin point , and continue developing some fairly simple designs .

 Dusty

This right here. They've been in business almost 100 years for a reason. Not everyone wants to march to the beat of everyone else's drum.  However, that V85TT is quite appealing and I honestly think they'll sell more of them than any model they've had since the V11EV. Heck, if my X21 was paid off, I'd jump all over the TT.
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Offline Toecutter

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Re: What would a new Guzzi look like with the WOW factor and mass appeal?
« Reply #74 on: February 12, 2019, 09:57:31 AM »
On the topic of the 1400... I think, in North America at least, the average rider of large displacement cruisers is also a proponent of customization. Bars, bags, tanks, seats, exhaust being the main ones. Customizing a H-D is the easiest thing in the world. If you can dream of it... someone is making it. All of a sudden, that softtail looks nothing like it did when you bought it, and you're now riding the bike and portraying the image you always wished to.

THAT is the single largest selling point of the large displacement cruiser in North America.

If you want a bagger/ tourer? There are a couple of bikes at the top of that heap already, a couple of which ALSO allow for massive customization, and a couple others that are simply the king of their class.

Now, just from my own travel experience... large displacement bikes, are, by and large, a North American cultural phenomenon. Bigger, stronger, louder... it's all part of the societal fabric. Sure, I see a few big ol' Harleys and the like when abroad, but the numbers PALE in comparison to the smaller displacement bikes.

Add in the abysmal dealer/service/supply network, and big Guzzis are never gonna be more than a small niche bike. 

We can trot out the "goin' outta business since..." trope all day long, but it's still a business. If the production of a product makes no sense, then that product goes away. Time will tell.

As for modern "WOW factor"?

I think, personally, that in today's market a "WOW factor bike" would require:

1) a variety of style designs around the same bones. Standard, "cafť", "scrambler", "cruiser"... but mean it. Not just styling cues.
2) fantastic emissions and fuel economy... it matters. Especially to a new generation.
3) impeccable build quality before sale, and impeccable support after sale. People want to ride... not wrench or wait for parts. "quirk" only has value to Blackthumbs.
4) LED lighting all around.
5) mid-sized... 500 to 800cc tops.
6) A low maintenance schedule, with easily available maintenance supplies.
7) cast wheels.
8) good aftermarket support.
9) a solid "image" attached to brand, through marketing.
10) Honda build quality, H-D mystique, R.E. pricing.

Online Dharma Bum

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Re: What would a new Guzzi look like with the WOW factor and mass appeal?
« Reply #75 on: February 12, 2019, 10:16:36 AM »

10) Honda build quality, H-D mystique, R.E. pricing.
 
Sounds kinda like a unicorn to me.

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Re: What would a new Guzzi look like with the WOW factor and mass appeal?
« Reply #76 on: February 12, 2019, 10:31:08 AM »

I think, personally, that in today's market a "WOW factor bike" would require:

1) a variety of style designs around the same bones. Standard, "cafť", "scrambler", "cruiser"... but mean it. Not just styling cues.
2) fantastic emissions and fuel economy... it matters. Especially to a new generation.
3) impeccable build quality before sale, and impeccable support after sale. People want to ride... not wrench or wait for parts. "quirk" only has value to Blackthumbs.
4) LED lighting all around.
5) mid-sized... 500 to 800cc tops.
6) A low maintenance schedule, with easily available maintenance supplies.
7) cast wheels.
8) good aftermarket support.
9) a solid "image" attached to brand, through marketing.
10) Honda build quality, H-D mystique, R.E. pricing.

So, you've just described the V7/V9 lineup, mostly...

Personally, it does seem to me that Guzzi is heading towards a lineup of 750-1000cc small block variants.  The California 1400 is withering on the vine.  Guzzi hasn't even tried to offer any color choices.  Black or red.  Pretty boring. The CARC platform was not replaced, and no spyshots of anything in development.  All of the development that's come through over the past few years has been to the small block variants.

And the small blocks sell.  I guess I can't blame Piaggio/Guzzi.  You have to sell what the customer is buying.  You have to make money to pay the bills. 
Michael T.
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"Do what you can, with what you have, where you are." - Theodore Roosevelt

Online inditx

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Re: What would a new Guzzi look like with the WOW factor and mass appeal?
« Reply #77 on: February 12, 2019, 10:49:17 AM »
CANíT.RESIST.MUST.CHIME.IN......

So Iím an older, read seasoned rider....having owned too many bikes to count over the last almost 50 years. And owning up to 7 at one time. Although I personally donít want the hassle of tending to 7 bikes and the costs associated. If you do or youíre able to hire mechanics like Jay Lenos garage then, more power to ya.

What I will say about Guzzi is, it had me at first glance. Can't remember where or even the model but that Twin transverse was just beautiful. Then firing up the motor and the legendary twist, it just works for me. Donít care if that could be a problem under sever cornering, I donít do that anymore.

The V7 is successful for Guzzi and the EV is probably the best all around Guzzi made imho. Not gonna cafe, bobber, chop or otherwise redesign my bikes. Hats off to those who do and I appreciate good craftsmanship, artsmanship (is that even a word?) etc. even if Iím not going to buy or ride one. Kinda like the custom choppers of yester yore, didnít ride them then and yet I admired the efforts to customize them to the owners tastes. (btw they handled horribly)

So, ride whatever you like and like whatever you ride. Letís not argue about what another mans or womans ride is or isn't to us.People are more important than the bikes they ride or customize.

Personally, I like this forum and everyone on it but seriously, we can get in the weeds and forget what weíre united around. Riding and on this forum mostly Guzziís.

Capiche?
Over and out
inditx




Online bad Chad

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Re: What would a new Guzzi look like with the WOW factor and mass appeal?
« Reply #78 on: February 12, 2019, 11:16:12 AM »
I actually feel like the v85tt at least so far has the Wow factor.   I canít think of any Guzzi in recent decades that has attracted this level of attention from so many sources.   Will it live up to the hype, will see, but it certainly is drawing more attention to Guzzi than anything else in some time.
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Online inditx

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Re: What would a new Guzzi look like with the WOW factor and mass appeal?
« Reply #79 on: February 12, 2019, 11:27:18 AM »
 :thumb: bad chad

Online rocker59

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Re: What would a new Guzzi look like with the WOW factor and mass appeal?
« Reply #80 on: February 12, 2019, 11:31:36 AM »
I actually feel like the v85tt at least so far has the Wow factor.   I canít think of any Guzzi in recent decades that has attracted this level of attention from so many sources.   Will it live up to the hype, will see, but it certainly is drawing more attention to Guzzi than anything else in some time.

Agreed.  It seems to be generating lots of interest across the board.

I hope it's good.
Michael T.
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Offline s1120

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Re: What would a new Guzzi look like with the WOW factor and mass appeal?
« Reply #81 on: February 12, 2019, 11:36:09 AM »
Agreed.  It seems to be generating lots of interest across the board.

I hope it's good.


hope people can find one...
Paul B

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Re: What would a new Guzzi look like with the WOW factor and mass appeal?
« Reply #82 on: February 12, 2019, 02:18:44 PM »

hope people can find one...

It's sort of like finding a Fiat, Alfa Romeo, Ferrari, or Maserati dealership.  If you want one, you will make the effort.  If you want a Honda, Acura, Toyota, Lexus, Chevrolet, or Cadillac, much less effort is required.

Low effort motorcycle buyers have plenty of Honda and Harley motorcycle superstores available for the easy-out.

Michael T.
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Offline keener

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Re: What would a new Guzzi look like with the WOW factor and mass appeal?
« Reply #83 on: February 13, 2019, 09:49:15 PM »
a new Guzzi with the wow factor and mass appeal,should look like a .....Griso ................ :whip2:

« Last Edit: February 13, 2019, 10:08:45 PM by keener »
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Offline janguzzi

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Re: What would a new Guzzi look like with the WOW factor and mass appeal?
« Reply #84 on: February 14, 2019, 06:11:48 AM »
For me it would be an updated Griso (+ABS) or a successor using CARC and the 8V engine.

Alternative:
https://www.ipothesys.com/aria-v12/
Kind Regards
Jan, Schuby (near the Danish Border), Germany
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