Author Topic: Driveshaft spline wear???  (Read 1514 times)

Offline Wes Stephens

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Driveshaft spline wear???
« on: February 14, 2019, 04:02:05 PM »
Hello to All,   I replaced the universal joint and female spline coupler on my 03 Cali EV at about 115,000miles when it went clunk clunk as  I backed it out of the shed.      At that time the shaft into the pinion/ring gearbox was worn more than the others two splines,  (old universal output and that end of the
old coupler) and made myself a note to check it again before 125,000 mi.  I'm about at that point now and I got to thinking the wear at that point  is probably accelerating,  as there is more wiggle.  Replacing that worn part, which includes the pinion, means replacing the matching ringgear and shimming the final drive box.  I know from experience that is expensive and difficult.  Now for my question.  Why not pull the box off and pack the badly worn spline with stud and bearing locktite,  or even spot weld it.  The other end of the coupler would still allow disassembly.  Problem solved??  Or not?  I would appreciate your suggestion and ideas.   I know this forum has TALENT.   Thanks,  Wes Stephens

Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Driveshaft spline wear???
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2019, 04:19:59 PM »
I have welded one that was badly worn. What I did was indicate the coupler true and weld a spot. Indicate it again (it will move when you weld it) and weld a spot 180 degrees away. Indicate it again and weld a spot 90 to those. Indicate again and weld the fourth. That will put it on location. Then, let your conscience be your guide as to how much you weld it.  :smiley: From memory..  :rolleyes: those 4 places were good enough for me.
Oh, one other thing. I rotated the splines to where they were driving the rear end to take some of the load off the welds.
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal

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Offline Wayne Orwig

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Re: Driveshaft spline wear???
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2019, 04:23:43 PM »
I've had a wear problem there also. Always :popcorn: from rust. I'm not sure where the moisture is getting in. And I do pack everything there with some sticky goop.

I ordered an 8/35 gear set from MG Cycle. Don't exactly like the 8/33 and don't exactly like the 7/33, so I am hoping the 8/35 is a good choice. Now I need to get off my tail and install it.

I'm not sure how the welding would work out. Everything there is hardened, so I assume the welding cycle would soften things. Not sure if that is an issue or not.
Maybe if the coupler was softened, drilled, rehardened, then spot welded in the holes that were drilled.
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Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Driveshaft spline wear???
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2019, 06:17:46 PM »
Quote
I'm not sure how the welding would work out. Everything there is hardened, so I assume the welding cycle would soften things.
It's *not* good practice to weld on anything that is heat treated without a full anneal, weld, reharden.. but.. as far as I know, that fix is still in service. That is why I just spotted it in 4 places and said
Quote
Then, let your conscience be your guide as to how much you weld it.  :smiley:
Welding it all the way around might cause you grief.
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal

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The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt.' - Bertrand Russell

Offline Wes Stephens

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Re: Driveshaft spline wear???
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2019, 07:29:51 PM »
Thanks to Chuck and Wayne,   I think Chuck's idea to rotate the coupler in the driven direction to take some of the strain off the welds is spot on,  and the welding heat upsetting the hardening somewhat.  Would brazing with brass rod and flux lessen that problem??   The brass would just be a gap filler.  I'm better with a torch than arc.   Wes

Offline pete mcgee

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Re: Driveshaft spline wear???
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2019, 03:56:44 AM »
I have had my pinion splines rebuilt twice since 1995.
They weld up the worn area and recut the splines, I havent noticed any discoloration on the pinion teeth from this.
Reassemble the final drive, check backlash and clearences, replace the pinion bearings,gaskets and seals, drive shaft and coupling
And refit to swinger.
If I can get all that done down here at the arse end of the world, you blokes should have no problem.

Cheers
Pete (no not the Bungendore one)


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Offline Wes Stephens

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Re: Driveshaft spline wear???
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2019, 06:47:13 AM »
Thanks Pete,   You Blokes from down under have a long history of the "Get er Done" as with Mr. Munroe and his Indian.  I'll take your advice.    Wes in the Ozark Hills.

Offline s1120

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Re: Driveshaft spline wear???
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2019, 07:31:04 AM »
Im reading this and thinking...  oh one more thing to keep a eye on.... then see the high miles, and breath a sigh of relief.... with 9K on my 02 stone, and me being 54...  I have a good number of years before I will need to worry....if ever.
Paul B

Offline Lannis

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Re: Driveshaft spline wear???
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2019, 09:12:03 AM »
Reading this is making me wonder ...

How much does an actual proper repair/replacement of the rear drive cost these days?    Is it really expensive or just expensive (Guzzi content) to a true Guzzista?   :huh:

I've never had more than 60,000 miles on a Guzzi so I've never had to face it ....

Lannis
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Offline Wes Stephens

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Re: Driveshaft spline wear???
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2019, 11:02:43 AM »
Hi Lannis,  I don't know what the $ figure for new gears is at this time but the trouble of re-shimming the fit of new pinion & ring set is quite a chore (for me at least).   Wayne Orwig in his above comment would have the $ amt.  for new gears.   I like the 8:33 ratio that I have now.   A good solution would be swap out the whole box with a low milage used unit from a wrecked/salvaged bike.  I don't put many miles on the EV the last year or two as my choice for all my short trips is 2013 V7 special now.  I turned 76 last year and the lighter weight is a plus.   Wes

Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Driveshaft spline wear???
« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2019, 11:59:34 AM »
Really expensive, Lannis.  :grin:
MG says $552.31 for the ring and pinion. Then you have to fit it up, while you're at it new everything. It's *much* cheaper (Guzzi content) to find a good used one and slap it on there.
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal

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The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt.' - Bertrand Russell

Offline pete mcgee

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Re: Driveshaft spline wear???
« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2019, 06:12:37 PM »
Last time I priced a ring and pinion set here in oz, it was 1200 pacific pesos, plus bearings,seals and shimming, drive shaft and coupling. With me doing the work.
So $900 to get the splines rebuilt, bearings, gaskets etc the clearences dont seem to change a great deal as you use the same crown and pinion, makes it cost effective as long as there is no damage to the crown or pinion teeth.
Pete (no not the Bungendore one)


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Offline Wes Stephens

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Re: Driveshaft spline wear???
« Reply #12 on: February 25, 2019, 08:36:18 PM »
Hello again,  Just wanted to report on my brazing (weld). of the splined coupler to the pinion shaft.  Getting the brass to flow into the splines was solved be drilling 6 each 3/16" holes in the coupler.  It wasn't hardened to any great extent and holes were not a problem.   Apply heat to one hole at a time fill with molten brass continue heating that area until molten brass wicks into the splines.  Let cool between holes and check runout.  When finished I had about .003" of wobble,  not perfect but I think it will be okay.   Wes

Offline oldbike54

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Re: Driveshaft spline wear???
« Reply #13 on: February 25, 2019, 08:58:45 PM »
 Very creative Wes .

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Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Driveshaft spline wear???
« Reply #14 on: February 26, 2019, 09:42:02 AM »
Hello again,  Just wanted to report on my brazing (weld). of the splined coupler to the pinion shaft.  Getting the brass to flow into the splines was solved be drilling 6 each 3/16" holes in the coupler.  It wasn't hardened to any great extent and holes were not a problem.   Apply heat to one hole at a time fill with molten brass continue heating that area until molten brass wicks into the splines.  Let cool between holes and check runout.  When finished I had about .003" of wobble, not perfect but I think it will be okay.   Wes

Plenty close enough. If it *was* hardened, though..it's not now.  :smiley: I'll bet it lasts a long time.
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal

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The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt.' - Bertrand Russell

Offline Antietam Classic Cycle

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Re: Driveshaft spline wear???
« Reply #15 on: February 26, 2019, 02:28:42 PM »
Couplers don't seem to be hardened - I grab a well-used one with my Vise-Grips to turn the output shaft when needed and they leave fairly deep marks (or scars if they slip).
Charlie
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Offline brider

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Re: Driveshaft spline wear???
« Reply #16 on: March 12, 2019, 09:01:34 AM »
About that brazing method, from a guy who knows virtually nothing about metallurgy beyond forming 7075-T6 sheet: Does the brass rod material bond with weld-like strength to the splines of the coupler and pinion?

And back to the tack-welding method: I am in a similar boat (see parallel topic for my Cal 2), but was considering Chuck's tack-welding method, tacking the coupler to the nut which is staked to the pinion. Coupler OD and nut OD where they meet are virtually the same, making a very opportune place to weld. Wouldn't/couldn't you be able to braze at this location also?
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Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Driveshaft spline wear???
« Reply #17 on: March 12, 2019, 07:55:49 PM »
I'd hate to call the tack welding "Chuck's method."  :smiley: Lets call it what it is, a bodge that can get you going..
The problem with brazing is it has to be scrupulously clean for the brass to flow.
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal

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Offline Antietam Classic Cycle

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Re: Driveshaft spline wear???
« Reply #18 on: March 13, 2019, 08:22:00 AM »
About that brazing method, from a guy who knows virtually nothing about metallurgy beyond forming 7075-T6 sheet: Does the brass rod material bond with weld-like strength to the splines of the coupler and pinion?

And back to the tack-welding method: I am in a similar boat (see parallel topic for my Cal 2), but was considering Chuck's tack-welding method, tacking the coupler to the nut which is staked to the pinion. Coupler OD and nut OD where they meet are virtually the same, making a very opportune place to weld. Wouldn't/couldn't you be able to braze at this location also?

If you tack it to the nut, what's to keep the nut from spinning off even if it's staked?
Charlie
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Offline brider

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Re: Driveshaft spline wear???
« Reply #19 on: March 13, 2019, 10:36:59 AM »
If you tack it to the nut, what's to keep the nut from spinning off even if it's staked?

???   Staking is the only positive lock for the nut anyway....if the splined coupler is tacked to the staked nut, and assuming the tacks hold forever, the coupler keeps the nut from spinning even in the absence of the stake.
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Offline Antietam Classic Cycle

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Re: Driveshaft spline wear???
« Reply #20 on: March 13, 2019, 11:39:29 AM »
???   Staking is the only positive lock for the nut anyway....if the splined coupler is tacked to the staked nut, and assuming the tacks hold forever, the coupler keeps the nut from spinning even in the absence of the stake.

Unless the splines fail completely.
Charlie
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Offline John A

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Re: Driveshaft spline wear???
« Reply #21 on: March 13, 2019, 07:59:02 PM »
If Chucks Brazing Method is used first it complicates any welding after because the weld won't work unless all the braze is cleaned off where you intend to weld. Weld first, then braze.   Mite as well buy some parts. :popcorn:
« Last Edit: March 13, 2019, 08:13:27 PM by John A »
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Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Driveshaft spline wear???
« Reply #22 on: March 14, 2019, 05:53:29 AM »
Quote
Chucks Brazing Method

Nope. I would never do that..once you braze something, welding is out of the question.
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal

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The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt.' - Bertrand Russell

Offline brider

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Re: Driveshaft spline wear???
« Reply #23 on: March 14, 2019, 08:31:37 AM »
Unless the splines fail completely.

Of course.....valid point.

In my case, I will assume that the remaining pinion spline shear area will remain as it is, and thus will not fail, since the "impact" loading will be eliminated by the tack welds.

Normal torque loads will remain, but this is a stock engine in front of a torque converter! If I get another 30k out of the splines at my rate of mileage, I'll call it good! That's what I'm thinking, anyway.
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Offline John A

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Re: Driveshaft spline wear???
« Reply #24 on: March 14, 2019, 09:34:58 AM »
Nope. I would never do that..once you braze something, welding is out of the question.



I know, Chuck, I was teasing, it was late and it's been a long winter!
John
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Offline brider

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Re: Driveshaft spline wear???
« Reply #25 on: March 15, 2019, 08:01:47 AM »
If you tack it to the nut, what's to keep the nut from spinning off even if it's staked?

Charlie, I woke up in the middle of the night in a cold sweat (not really) and thought again about your statement.....

The splines, as long as they don't shear off completely, will retain the tacked coupler/nut combo. BUT, reverse-loading from off-throttle action will LOAD THE STAKE ON THE NUT, a loading the nut/stake was never designed to see! Even small displacements of the nut/stake from reverse-loading will affect the preload of the shimmed pinion assembly, something possibly more detrimental than slop in the splines.

So THANK YOU for that little nugget, I will pause and avoid tack-welding to the nut (for now).

Next question: WHAT is it that Charlie's Method welds the coupler to?
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Offline BRIO

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Re: Driveshaft spline wear???
« Reply #26 on: March 17, 2019, 05:57:47 PM »
I just finished refreshing a BMW R80/7. The BMW airhead community is pretty religious about greasing the splines with a special molybdenum grease. It sound like it might be worth doing periodically on Guzzis as well.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2019, 07:29:46 PM by BRIO »

 

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