The new Zero

[rocker59]

and should we get a "green" government anytime soon, they might adopt a tax break to help electric vehicles prosper.  (Much like tax breaks for insulted windows etc a decade ago).

No need to wait for that which will never come.  You can already claim tax credits for EVs.

https://www.energy.gov/eere/electricvehicles/electric-vehicles-tax-credits-and-other-incentives

[rocker59]

I've run the numbers, the lack of maintenance and consumable items on an electric bike vs a motor-cycle means it would cost me $1000 less per year to run an electric vs a conventional motorcycle. Yes, most of that is gasoline. That's also me and my riding, which now that I'm approaching the end of hauling kids to school (youngest graduates in June) means I'll be using my bikes more... to the tune of 10K miles per year. If I kept it for the 5 years the powerpack is under warranty... well, it's effectively a $15,000 bike due to the reduced ownership cost. This is what you need to look at with electric vehicles... the total annual operating cost.
 

Did you factor the cost of electricity to keep the bike charged? 

[kingoffleece]

There are several stories published from moto journalists about riding electric bikes across country.

[Tusayan]

Even where tax credits don't exist and you can't avoid income tax by buying an electric vehicle, legal tax avoidance remains a huge part of the attraction for most electric vehicle buyers... especially in areas where gas or diesel tax would otherwise be as much as 3/4 of the (let's say) $6 per gallon pump price for fuel.  The future in some of those areas is very likely to include tracking of your vehicle by GPS and being billed (literally) in direct proportion to how much you move your body by car or bike from one position to another.  That will give the civil libertarians something to think about, and will negate much of the current fuel cost savings.

In the here and now (for the time being) you can enjoy paying no tax on the coal or natural gas etc that indirectly fuels your electric bike but the time to refuel, regardless of range, is to me a huge restriction on the pleasure of using the vehicle.  Every trip away from home has to be pre-planned around long charging breaks, and changes to the itinerary involve recalculation of an entire day, not just a two minute stop to refuel for a revised destination.  I cannot imagine using such a limited vehicle for an Alps tour, which is the most preplanned riding I do, and I'll continue to treasure the flexibility and spontaneity of riding a gasoline powered bike - even if I can't avoid tax in doing so.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Did you factor the cost of electricity to keep the bike charged?

Setting up the charger for "off peak" hours is a considerable savings. Actually, electricity is cheap. Figure out how much it costs to run (for instance) my house generator with the power out burning 2 gallons per hour around the clock. 

[Chuck in Indiana]

Hmm, no clutch, no gear shift, no vibration, no sounds of internal combustion, no interest....

That was my thought too.. until I rode one.  <shrug> It was like a Lario with more than double the horsepower and *torque,* excellent brakes and suspension. The only real issue is that I couldn't have ridden it home. I'll bet charging stations will be here sooner than most think. Naturally, there will be push back from the oil companies until they figure out how to tax the sun..

[rocker59]

There are several stories published from moto journalists about riding electric bikes across country.

The short range of most motorcycles is already a PIA, stopping to fuel every two or three hours on a trip.  Planning around gas stops is already a hassle on a motorcycle because of that short range.  Add in planning around electric charging stations and time to recharge, and I'll pass on trying to take a trip with ANY electric vehicle.

[rocker59]

Setting up the charger for "off peak" hours is a considerable savings. Actually, electricity is cheap. 

Maybe so, but most people don't consider the cost of electricity when considering EV.

And someone pays for the electricity to refuel the EVs.

[Chuck in Indiana]

The short range of most motorcycles is already a PIA, stopping to fuel every two or three hours on a trip.  Planning around gas stops is already a hassle on a motorcycle because of that short range.  Add in planning around electric charging stations and time to recharge, and I'll pass on trying to take a trip with ANY electric vehicle.

True. Now. The infrastructure will have to catch up. Right now, though, I'll bet an electric would work for me in SoCal. My "normal" ride might be 20 miles of lane splitting, 60 miles of twisty fun, and 20 miles of lane splitting home.

[Tusayan]

someone pays for the electricity to refuel the EVs.

Most electricity is generated from fossil fuels that certainly aren't free, but the fundamental cost per Horsepower-hour is lower for an EV because of higher fuel efficiency of a power plant versus a small engine.  The larger saving to the consumer, varying by location, is fuel tax avoidance. With that in mind, the taxpayers are supplementing the cost of operation for EV owners, as with other tax avoidance allowed by government to encourage certain behaviors.  Once EVs are better established the gates will close behind the consumer, and taxes on EV movement will be introduced.  For now a consumer buying an EV is trading higher initial cost and the inconvenience of charging against effectively doubled mpg and fuel tax avoidance.

[rocker59]

   For now a consumer buying an EV is trading higher initial cost and the inconvenience of charging against effectively doubled mpg and fuel tax avoidance.

Good point on the Fuel Tax avoidance one currently enjoys while not burning gasoline on the roads.

Similarly, I've wondered when States would begin licensing or taxing bicycles, for the same reason.

[bad Chad]

It's clear these bikes are not meant to be high mile slab eaters, so I hope I can stop reading, "yea they might be good for local riding but not touring!"

But they have crossed the line into practical, fun locomotion for what and where they are intended, and they will only continue to improve.  Most motorcycle riders in the US do not ride hundreds of miles a day, most motorcycle riders could easily live with a bike with a 145 mile range.   Just like most auto drivers in the US could do the same.   Yes, I understand that still leaves millions of motorist who don't fit that scenario, happily for us, we still have fine ICE too.  I think there great, and would like to own one someday, but I'm not about to get rid of my favorite mile eating twin!

[Tusayan]

Good point on the Fuel Tax avoidance one currently enjoys while not burning gasoline on the roads. Similarly, I've wondered when States would begin licensing or taxing bicycles, for the same reason.

In Europe where fuel tax is $3-4/gallon or so, avoiding it is a BIG DEAL for the EV consumer, and that plus income tax credits is still a big factor in locations where price at the pump is based moreso on the cost of production.

[Rick in WNY]

Did you factor the cost of electricity to keep the bike charged?

Yup. I have a whole spreadsheet in Excel on the costs. The "fuel" cost of an electric bike where I live comes out to about $300 for the 10K miles I'd be riding it. That's a whole lot cheaper than gas... The rest is the lack of fluids, filters, and other maintenance items. End of the day, it's still a spreadsheet, only 1/2 of which is hard numbers (real cost of gas/riding my existing bikes) but it's still encouraging.

I could buy one and love it... Would it replace my gas engine bikes, nope. It's not supposed to. But it would make for a nice mileage sponge for my commute.

[twowheeladdict]

and should we get a "green" government anytime soon, they might adopt a tax break to help electric vehicles prosper.  (Much like tax breaks for insulted windows etc a decade ago).

I think the companies build in the tax break to their price.  There is no way a Zero motorcycle should cost what it does. 

My only interest in an electric motorcycle would be for exploring the woods in a near silent way.  Enjoy nature a little more. 

Otherwise, not caring about 0-60 acceleration times.  If less power equated to more range I would take that.  Give me a transmission so the motor doesn't have to spin up as much to maintain 55 mph.

[kingoffleece]

Our own Moshe Levy commuted on an electric bike for an entire riding season in the North east.  He wrote a very detailed article last year on the results.  Very informative.

[dguzzi]

I simply cannot give it a pass on style...done been hit with the ugly stick; opened up a can of ugly beans; grew up on the ugly farm; went fishin' in ugly creek.  You get the idea.

[LowRyter]

I'd sure like to what the urban scooter market will look like in 10 years, particularly in Europe.

As I said earlier, I think Vespa will be affected before Harley. 

[Chuck in Indiana]

I think the companies build in the tax break to their price.  There is no way a Zero motorcycle should cost what it does. 

You have to realize how much it truly costs to build from the ground up. Motus learned that lesson the hard way. The first adopters always are the ones to finance tech stuff. Remember people giving $6500 for a big flat screen tv not very many years ago? You can now buy better ones for well under $1000. It's all about economy of scale.

[TimmyTheHog]

As much as I would miss the vibration and the sound of the IC engine vehicles, I welcome the change to "greener" side for the sake of the future.

I like longer travel and will do it when I have the chance...so charge time is kinda a bummer for the electric vehicles for now. But give it another 5~10 years, I am crossing my fingers that will change.

Now, in Taiwan, one of the scooter company is now working together with the government and became the "official" electric scooter of choice for the government therefore has the funding to build charging infrastructures to charge their scooters.

So they "solve" the "charging" issue by having replaceable battery stations everywhere.

So if you are almost out of juice, you can ride to a nearby station, pay for the replaced battery and re-insert your old one in. VOILA! quick 5 mins "charge".

But again, for that to work in North America, you will need to have nearly all the manufactures agreeing on the format of the replaceable battery as well as working together on building multiple infrastructures to support this idea. After all, North America is HELLA BIGGER than Taiwan, therefore, the infrastructures will definitely be WAY bigger to achieve this.

But one can dream...

[Muzz]

Say if (when) they get the battery tech up to speed so that a bike can do a good distance on a charge.....  If I did 10,000kms a year on my Breva which does 23km/lit, that's roughly 434 lits of fuel. I pay just under $2-30 per lit for premium, so my annual fuel bill would be  about $1000 (NZ). That is not including any other stuff like filters and oil.

You can get out here a 300watt perc mono solar panel for $400, so in a year that would be 2.1/2 panels worth of gas. On an 8 hour day that would be 6kw generated (give or take).

When our vehicles start becoming main stream electric I can well see some advantages in going solar, especially now that Perovskite crystal ones are getting the longevity problems sorted and the lab efficiencies have overtaken silicon.  These are being touted as being much cheaper to produce as well. (Guzzi content )

Being retired and not needing a vehicle every day would mean it could be charged during daylight hours.  Going solar would actually start to make financial sense as well then.

I would miss the V twin rumble though!

[Ncdan]

Good point on the Fuel Tax avoidance one currently enjoys while not burning gasoline on the roads.

Similarly, I've wondered when States would begin licensing or taxing bicycles, for the same reason.

The bicycle tax was just introduced in NC this week. We'll see if it passes.

[lucian]

I see no reason they couldn't make an electric bike sound and feel like a real MC.  All it would take is a speaker, and a vibrator under the seat. I'm sure gears could be simulated electronically as well. You could even make the vibrator portable so you could toss it under your hotel mattress.

[Muzz]

You could even make the vibrator portable so you could toss it under your hotel mattress.

Whatever rips ya shorts....

[Aaron D.]

The speaker idea is being used in cars to give them a throaty exhaust note.

[Rick in WNY]

The speaker idea is being used in cars to give them a throaty exhaust note.

Yup. That's been a thing for a while.

https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a15117726/faking-it-engine-sound-enhancement-explained-tech-dept/

[LowRyter]

The speaker idea is being used in cars to give them a throaty exhaust note.

I think they put that on my '14 Accord.  Wind it out in 2nd gear and it sounds like a Ferrari.  It does sound cool but I don't think it's real.

OTOH, Mazda studied dozens of mufflers to get the right sound on the Miata.  So using the car's audio system saves R&D costs.

[Chuck in Indiana]

That's like having a kick lever to start your electric start Harley..

[TimmyTheHog]

The speaker idea is being used in cars to give them a throaty exhaust note.

Ya, car been doing this for a while now.

the most noticeable one is the M series for BMW

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/bmw-m5-generates-fake-engine-noise-using-stereo/

[Shorty]

 Y'all  have been dissing Honda and BMW for years about their quiet, practical vehicles. Now you heap praise on electric?  Talk about a soulless appliance.      I would probably like one. After all, I'm a big BMW K75 fanboy.