V7 Map Comparison - GT vs Beetle Map (GuzziDiag)

[ponti_33609]

The MIU G3 is very basic. Despite being originally designed for a single cylinder, it can actually operate two cylinders independently and has a MAP sensor. Mechanically it's a POS and once the TPS cam wears sufficiently, the whole MIU unit must be replaced. The TPS itself is fairly low resolution and barely adequate. It's not the ideal choice for a relatively large capacity engine when compared to the scooters it was designed for.

Here is next question. Prob stupid. But if you needed someday to replace your MIU are there any other choices or will you need to replace with the same?

Lastly, my next project is a sump extender.  Guessing most here will say it's not needed either and just keep an eye on my oil. Probably true but will have more peace of mind with another quart.




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[Andy1]

Thanks for that information Beetle.

Peter. The dyno run proved the bike was not in any limp mode with lambdas removed.

Andy1

[beetle]

Bob, I think you're still looking at many, many miles before it becomes an issue. Maybe 50,000 plus? More, possibly. I have no way to gauge TPS cam ware.

[ponti_33609]

Bob, I think you're still looking at many, many miles before it becomes an issue. Maybe 50,000 plus? More, possibly. I have no way to gauge TPS cam ware.

I agree but curious if a better model could be fitted or would someone need to replace with the same unit.


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[Kev m]

Hi KevM
Interesting that your bike runs sweet - but from my experience and that of many others, a lot do not.  So why is yours different?  I do not fiddle or modify my bikes for no reason and my V7 had run properly (with the original silencers or Mistrals) then that is how I would have left it.

Andy1

 

Wait, what's your list of "many others"?

Is it all people you have read about on the internet? Cause I would suggest those who post are a skewed subset of those who either:

* Have problems
And/or
* Tinkered a bit and caused problems

My experience (IRL, not just online) is with the following (though they post here too)

Me - 1 stock V7 Stone, runs fine.

Jay, 3 smallblocks, currently owns 2 (1TB models) the run fine. 1 with stock pipes, one with aftermarket.

Cam, 1 smallblock, 1TB, aftermarket mufflers, runs fine.

Ralph, 1 smallblock, 1TB, stock mufflers to far, runs fine.

And I can think of a dozen more I've met at Guzzi runs who didn't complain, but granted me some of them have an issue?

I dunno, I'm thinking MOST people find have issues or we'd hear A LOT more.

[ponti_33609]

Wait, what's your list of "many others"?

Is it all people you have read about on the internet? Cause I would suggest those who post are a skewed subset of those who either:

* Have problems
And/or
* Tinkered a bit and caused problems

My experience (IRL, not just online) is with the following (though they post here too)

Me - 1 stock V7 Stone, runs fine.

Jay, 3 smallblocks, currently owns 2 (1TB models) the run fine. 1 with stock pipes, one with aftermarket.

Cam, 1 smallblock, 1TB, aftermarket mufflers, runs fine.

Ralph, 1 smallblock, 1TB, stock mufflers to far, runs fine.

And I can think of a dozen more I've met at Guzzi runs who didn't complain, but granted me some of them have an issue?

I dunno, I'm thinking MOST people find have issues or we'd hear A LOT more.

I am another. My bike ran fine to me with stock pipes and map. I switched the exhaust purely for cosmetic reasons primarily.  It was the stock map with the Mistrals when I noticed it didn't feel as good to me and why I looked at alternatives.


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[jpv7]

For what it's worth, I bought the GT flash tool for my V7ii before the beetle option was available.  Loaded it up, and the bike starts and run fine with Lambdas plugged in.  Start it, and just ride away.  A slight drop in fuel economy is the only difference.

[darkstar1269]

I am another. My bike ran fine to me with stock pipes and map. I switched the exhaust purely for cosmetic reasons primarily.  It was the stock map with the Mistrals when I noticed it didn't feel as good to me and why I looked at alternatives.


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I am in this boat as well, no issues with stock pipes/map or even with aftermarket pipes/stock map below 4000.

[Dilliw]

For what it's worth, I bought the GT flash tool for my V7ii before the beetle option was available.  Loaded it up, and the bike starts and run fine with Lambdas plugged in.  Start it, and just ride away.  A slight drop in fuel economy is the only difference.

It sounds like the same difference for the V7 as for the 5AM in that the map writers have different performance objectives.  From another thread on this board:

GT-RX: "I'm not a mileage chaser. I just enjoy my bikes and put gas in them when needed. I prefer to have a healthy, cool running motor with amazing power."

Beetle: "You'll get a pleasant ride, with more low down grunt and great fuel economy."

[pete roper]

Thanks for that information Beetle.

Peter. The dyno run proved the bike was not in any limp mode with lambdas removed.

Andy1

How did the dyno run prove any such thing?

[Kev m]

How did the dyno run prove any such thing?

Well the very term "limp home mode" came from the fact that most EFI systems traditionally reduced/limited performance in that mode to prevent damage if something was wrong.

The idea was that a failed sensor would be ignored and/or the signal value replaced with some standard value (say a temp sensor might use the value for normal operation) to allow the vehicle to get home and repaired but not operate ideally.

He's suggesting the lack of reduction of power must mean it's not operating in a way that is limiting performance.

[pete roper]

At one point. WFO! It's a complete irrelevance. The error will be detected and the ECU will default. The fact that maximum RWHP doesn't effectively change proves nothing.

Once again I think we are seeing *evidence* of the old misconception that the evil government has *Made* manufacturers map all bikes up very lean. This isn't the case, in fact with the MM system at least the maps are almost universally rich! They then rely on the rather crude narrow band lambdas to pull fuel out until the perceived *Ideal* is reached during CL operation.

Outside of the CL area the maps are left quite rich for a couple of reasons. Firstly and crudely because the factory folks know that probably the first thing many owners will do is take off the stock exhaust and put some piece of noisy junk on. In most circumstances on most engines this will result in the mixture being leaned out and making the map richer at that point makes it less likely that the Pistons will develop holes! Secondly, besides a 'Safety margin' against damage it will generally, on a stock bike, limit or reduce power. This could be handy in a legal situation if a manufacturer is taken to task for providing an 'Insanely powerful' machine. They can simply point out they could of made it even more powerful! Hardly a concern with a Guzzi but as a business principle it will be applied with a broad brush!

Look, if Andy is happy with what he's done? All power to him. To me though it sounds like there is something not right with his bike. As for the ridiculous idea that you don't need to worry about fuel consumption if you are seeking best performance? Well, sorry, but adding more fuel to an already rich base map and turning the lambdas off is NOT going to achieve anything apart from higher fuel bills and accelerated engine wear.

Pete

[Kev m]

Well you know I'm pretty much in agreement with you on this. Though I won't purport to know if WOT is always available in real "limp home" mode on any given vehicle. I will guess that O2 sensor failure probably wouldn't be one that would limit performance because there's less of a chance of any damage because all it's doing is not "leaning out" towards 14.7:1 for a bit.

I mean not every fault code is supposed to cause limited performance.

[Andy1]

Peter - it was certinly not me who said anything about accepting poor fuel consumption....I get +60 mpg average on my bike (UK gallons) with the lambdas removed....I would not accept a bike with poor fuel consumption....and my experience is that the removal of the lambdas reinstates the mixture to how it should be from an originally over lean mixture.  Not an over rich one as you suggest.  My evidence for this is the original blueing of the headers with the lambdas connected reduces once the lambdas are removed (leaner mixtures burn with a higher EGT (Exhaust Gas Temperature)).

You seem to be quite critical of me and what I have done and have made sarcastic comments which up until now I have ignored.  May I ask a question please?  Have you ever ridden or owned a V7?  What is your experience of this bike?  I know you have a lot of experience of other Guzzis and see yourself as something of a Guzzi Guru, but your knowledge may not be relevant to the V7.


KevM - if no one else had problems with rough running why are Todd and Beetle offering modified maps?

Peter says there may be something wrong with my bike - but that is how it was supplied new.  One thought was that I might have had 2 x dodgy lambda sensors.....but now it is running well - and the solution I have used costs very little, can be reversed, and is very unlikely to do any engine damage.  So while it may not be consistent with the re-mapping required on other MGs, it fits with Beetles's description of the ECU as being rather a crude device, possibly corrected by my rather crude modification.

I am away hang gliding for a few weeks now, so I will respond when I can, but please keep replies informative like Beetles, rather than sarcastic or aggressive like Peters

Andy1
(and appologies to Ponti if I appear to have hijacked his thread - I appreciate his original post and think he gave a very good description of his experience of sorting his bike out)

[pete roper]

Sorry if you interpret my responses as sarcastic. They aren't. The blueing of the pipes is down to the map being trimmed by the lambda input to a very lean state. This does NOT mean that the map is lean. There is a subtle difference.

As for your question as to whether I've owned a V7? I currently do, its with Beetle being used for map development purposes right now. Apart from that I've worked on and serviced scores of them. I am not, and have never claimed to be any sort of 'Guru' simply a mechanic who knows my trade.

Pete

PS, the fuel consumption comment was a response to George's (Dilliw's) previous statement about differing aims.

[fotoguzzi]

I'm glad we are all getting along so well.. I'll sleep good tonight.

[beetle]

I'm fairly sure there is no limp mode in the MIU G3. Although I'm still surprised that disconnecting the lambda's does not light up the EFI light. I might try it on Pete's V7 Racer in my garage. I do know that if the lambda sensor output exceeds parameters, you will get an EFI light. Also, if the MAP (Mass Air Pressure) sensor outputs goes wonky, it will light up. If the MAP sensor fails, you will likely fail to proceed. The ECU uses the lambda (in closed loop mode), MAP and phase sensor to calculate injector pulse-width and ignition timing, so if there's no lambda, it will simply operate in open-loop. Of course, it will still be in a permanent error state, it just won't tell you unless you  check the DTC's.

I started mapping the V7 because I was asked to. Some folks were getting low speed stumble and hunting, and/or poor starting. Not everyone has had these issues, as Kev m has noted. I don't know why this is. Could be down to the state of tune of the bike, crappy fuel in your area, whether it's a Monday or Friday build or any number of reasons. Adding an extremely free-flowing exhaust like an Agostini or Pipemasters, or one of the esoteric 2 into 1's would exacerbate the issue.

Honestly, if you have a stock V7, pulling the lambda sensors may be all you need to do. I'm not sure about the V7-II, as the firmware and software is different. Don't forget to reset the trims. Oh, and be sure to pull the sensors out of the headers, as they will clog, and if you ever need to put them back in, may cause problems.

As Dilliw mentions, my philosophy is not about more power. I just want us to have smooth, linear power delivery and best torque possible without engine mods. Also, adding extra fuel to cool and engine is the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

[beetle]

I agree but curious if a better model could be fitted or would someone need to replace with the same unit.

Anything is possible, but given the relatively low cost of the MIU G3, I'd simply replace it.

[SmithSwede]

Beetle:

Thanks for your work on these V7 maps and your interesting posts.  Two questions:

1). How exactly do I buy one of your maps for a 2013 V7 Stone?

2). Is there a particular brand of aftermarket exhaust you recommend for use with your map or as an overall upgrade to these bikes?  Or suggest avoiding? 

I don't have any particular issues with my stock exhaust after 50,000 miles, except that the left muffler turned brown after left spark plug cap got water fouled.  Runs ok now, but looks rough. 

I may replace with aftermarket.   Or with OEM.  But I would appreciate your input before I make a potential mistake.  I like the stock sound just fine.  What I want is the best running, easiest to live with engine for the long haul, so what do you recommend?

If you say stick with OEM, I shall listen.

Thanks.

[beetle]

1). How exactly do I buy one of your maps for a 2013 V7 Stone?

Simply go to my website: www.griso.org

Instant purchase of a download link via PayPal.

You will need the GuzziDiag suite of tools and the cables. Details in the GuzziDiag thread: LINKY.

2). Is there a particular brand of aftermarket exhaust you recommend for use with your map or as an overall upgrade to these bikes?  Or suggest avoiding? 

Simply based on the exhaust the maps were initially built with, the Mistral or Agostini. Functionally the same, although the Ago seems to be a tad more free flowing. These are without catcons, of course. Maybe stay clear of the Pipemasters. More fuel required for them to run smooth, so affects economy.

I don't have any particular issues with my stock exhaust after 50,000 miles, except that the left muffler turned brown after left spark plug cap got water fouled.  Runs ok now, but looks rough. 

I may replace with aftermarket.   Or with OEM.  But I would appreciate your input before I make a potential mistake.  I like the stock sound just fine.  What I want is the best running, easiest to live with engine for the long haul, so what do you recommend?

If you say stick with OEM, I shall listen.

Unless you want to drop a few pounds off the bike, make it louder or want it to change the look, I see no reason to change from stock. This assumes no drama with the engine. The muffler turned brown from the catcon getting too much raw fuel? If you reckon that might happen again, it might be worth considering changing to Mistrals, et al.

[Kev m]

Andy, Beetle answered your question directed at me, but I'll add that sometimes people react to a perceived need that doesn't have to be a real one. Also people tinker and change things. Not to mention even if the stock is OK that doesn't mean it can't be improved upon. Of course the question then becomes what is the improvement.

60 mpg (UK gallons) sounds like low average.

At a factor of 1.2 USG/UKG I'd say I average at least that most of the year and have enjoyed mpg as high as 66 mpg (UKG).

[pete roper]

In the case of most, if not all, Guzzi maps they can definitely be improved on. The early W5AM maps were dreadful. Just yesterday I had a bloke who's Mana I'd just re-belted pick his bike up and he was saying he loved the Griso but when he'd ridden them, (He'd tried several.) he "Couldn't live with the fuel injection.". I suggested he take mine for a squirt and when he got off he just said "Perfect! How much does it cost to get it to run like that?" He was gobsmacked when I explained that as long as it was tuned correctly the only change bar the exhaust pipe was a Beetlemap that costs a Grey Nurse!

I have a feeling next time I see him he'll be riding a Griso

The problems with the MUIG3 seem to vary from bike to bike but the cheapness of the MUIG3 itself and the fact that very little time or money going into the map development means that issues like the cold start stumbles may be quite common. I know with my bike if it is started from cold, even with the iteration of map that Mark provided it would stall if you tried to gas it up in the first 30 seconds to a minute. I suspect that this was because it went stupid lean due to the crap TPS interpretation but maybe the Ago mufflers contribute a bit too. Regardless of that once out of the warm-up table it rode pretty damn fine! Slightly more vibration at a couple of points and vibration is usually an indicator of a lean mix on one or both cylinders but overall it is much more pleasant than any V7 I've ridden with the stock map, lambda on or off!

My bike came with the Ago pipes and the stock ones so Mark has an opportunity to see what changes need to be made from stock to the more freer flowing Ago's. If someone asks him nicely he might even do a 'Noisy Moron' map for those who want to run without dB killers in! As most probably know noisy bikes make me puce with spluttering rage!

Pete

[guzzisteve]

Hey, not to start a cat fight, BUT, where is the GTRX rebuttal!!! It's now 'I'm not drunk, I'm just drinkin" Happy New Year Pete
SCORE= Beetle 10 & GTRX 0    LOL 

[beetle]

I was thinking about doing a map with dB killers out of the Ago's, but they're loud enough with them in. Maybe I'm just a cranky old curmudgeon.  Besides, fuel economy would likely plummet.

[pete roper]

With the killers in they aren't offensive and can be ridden around with without frightening little old ladies and scaring the cats, (Or attracting the attentions of  ! Riding with earplugs, always, with the killers in I can still hear the bike when its accelerating and decelerating but on the cruise at highway speed, (100-110kph or 60-70mph ish.) they are barely audible. Just the way I like it!

Pete

[Zinfan]

I can add that I'm very happy with my beetle map running in my '13 V7 Stone with GuzziTech 2:2 SS exhaust.  I've posted before that I felt a GT map worked well but at the cost of fuel mileage and now with the beetle map I get what I feel is even smoother throttle across the range and better mpg as well, I think it might be even better mpg than my bike in stock trim.  I do have a short warmup time but it is shorter than the stock timing and I don't mind waiting the minute before heading out on a cold bike.

[pauldaytona]

The MIU G3 is very basic. Despite being originally designed for a single cylinder, it can actually operate two cylinders independently and has a MAP sensor. Mechanically it's a POS and once the TPS cam wears sufficiently, the whole MIU unit must be replaced. The TPS itself is fairly low resolution and barely adequate. It's not the ideal choice for a relatively large capacity engine when compared to the scooters it was designed for.

 Because it was designed for a single cylinder engine, they had not another power switched output for a second coil available. So that's why there are different coils on the v7/v9. One is active and needs low power to spark.

 

[John A]

Last century I had a Bassa remapped on a dyno by Doug Lofgren useing FIM software. Fuel Injected Motorcycles is/was in Austrailia, I don't know if they are still in business but did have a good product to tune a then new 15M. This particular Bassa popped horribly on deceleration to the point of embarrassment. The Guzzi dealership could not fix it and the bike had not been modified yet. Doug said he added a lot of waypoints that he said were lacking in the factory map. Then to fix the popping on decel he had the thing retard timing on a trailing throttle.  That's what I remember ,it was a very nice running motorcycle after that. I'm ignorant on mapping but I wonder if retarding timing on trailing throttle is possible or desire able on bikes that pop so much on deceleration. Need a "head scratching " icon...

[pete roper]

No need to mess with the spark. Just chop the fuel completely on a negative throttle until the revs drop to a certain point. No fuel? No backfiring!

With the map I'm running the fuel is chopped at, (From memory, this is Mark's map, he'd know for sure.) all 4.6-5.2 degree throttle points above 2,700 rpm. It's normally un-noticeable on a closed throttle apart from a slight increase in engine braking, (To be honest I'm not good enough to pick it but I'm told it's there!) but on the long hill down into Queanbeyan which has an 80kph speed limit I can run into town on a negative throttle slowing down without brakes and when engine speed drops below that 2,700 rpm point and it starts getting fuel again it gives a small, barely detectable, lurch as combustion starts again. As soon as you open the throttle wider than the 5.2 degree cut of point it's business as usual. For some reason I really enjoy waiting for and predicting that little 'Lurch'. Little things please little minds I suppose............ ..

Pete

[Chuck in Indiana]

Grey Nurse

Ok, where did that come from?