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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: doctoriz on May 24, 2019, 07:24:02 PM
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Hi everyone,
This is my first post and a critical one, I think!
Here's a quick backstory seeing how this is my first post.
I have a 2009 Moto Guzzi Griso (8V, 1200cc) which I bought in 2013, which was "like showroom new!" I absolutely love this bikes looks, sound, and handling. I previously owned a 2002 BMW R1150R, which was a great bike, but just missed the lean angle for twisty-turns that I used to do on my cafe style bikes. My buddy had just bought a 2009 Griso and I feel in love with it; two weeks later, I owned one!
The Griso has been a phenomenal bike. I have kept it stock because, why change perfection...lol
In the summer of 2017, my buddy advised me of the tappet issue, so I took my bike to Cleveland Moto and had them check it out. The head guy advised that I should have the bike assessed, as he told me there was no way to know if it needed the rollerized until they took it down. He said if it didn't I would have the cost of the labor. I didn't have the funds to do it at the time, so I never go to it.
I was having some bogging with throttling and the horsepower seemed down to me. He agreed. He did a oil change and uploaded a new map; and WOW, what a difference. He also mentioned not to run premium gas and to use 87 octane, which I did not know. I had run premium in her since I owned her.
Ayway, I had planned to do the rollerization eval the following season, but didn't get around it. In fact, that following summer, I herniated one of my lumbar discs and didn't ride that season, so the bike sat, though I fired it up regularly.
I always added fuel stabilizer to it each winter and also ran a capful of injector cleaner
So, to fast forward, I got her ready last week. My youngest daughter wanted to go for her first ride. She was thrilled! The bike was hard to start and yes, I always have it on a battery tender when not in use. Once I got it started, it would quickly stall out. I would restart several times and finally it would stay running, but seemed to idle rough to me. If I tried to crack the throttle, it would cut out and then stall again. So, I would just leave it running longer and it seemed to be better.
Once I got it on the road, it seemed boggy under accelerating, almost cutting out and then it would kick in like a "power band" and take off like a bat out of hell. When I would come to stop, the idle seemed to low and it would stall. It would restart and the patterned continued. I road it for a mile or two at most and then returned to the garage. There was a tiny flaming coming out of the side vent of the silencer. The red metal mesh at the rear of the silencer had turned white and the internal pipes within the silencer were glowing orange!
I recall having an issue with BMW R1150R where the pipes would turn glowing orange the first time I fired it up after winter, but it self corrected. The odd thing is with the Griso is, the main pipes to the silencer looked fine, where not glowing, nor hot like the silencer.
I have not fired up the bike since and talk to my buddy, who suggested that I join this forum, which he has told me about from the beginning. I am glad to be here. I hope someone has some ideas that I can look into before having to take the bike back to the dealer a hundred miles from here.
On a lesser note, my Griso tank logo and stripped sticker, the former worse than the latter are looking bad. The Griso logo is half off at this point. Does anyone know where replacement logos can be purchased and also could recommend a site for purchasing OEM parts?
I want to say thank you in advance,
Jon
P.S. My apologies if this was posted somewhere else, as I am learning how to navigate the forum.
Here's a picture that snapped when it happened!
(https://i.ibb.co/yXsGsNn/UNADJUSTEDNONRAW-thumb-10ef7.jpg) (https://ibb.co/yXsGsNn)
roll 1d100 (https://freeonlinedice.com/)
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Something is definitely wrong there. When I see flames coming out of a pipe, my first thought is exhaust leak. Check the exhaust collars.
I don't know if tappet issues could cause your bike to go that lean to make your muffler look like the back end of the space shuttle.
Someone smarter will be along shortly.
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Check the exhaust clamps for tightness. Also consider getting a remap on your bikes fuel injection CPU; it sounds as though your bike is running lean.
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I suspect your catalytic converter in the exhaust is overheating due to un burnt fuel. My first guess is a bad spark plug cap { known issue as they crack when not removed properly] If you take the little covers with the moto guzzi badges off and watch in the dark you'll see a cracked one arcing to ground. The resulting miss fire will send un burned gas into the exhaust overheating the catalytic converter. Get some new NGK plug caps, # SB05E and carry on.
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(https://i62.servimg.com/u/f62/18/91/78/64/8fe01410.gif) What lucian said. Cat.
(https://i62.servimg.com/u/f62/18/91/78/64/8fe01410.gif) What Perazzimx14 said. Get it rollerised immediately.
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I suspect your catalytic converter in the exhaust is overheating due to over fueling. My first guess is a bad spark plug cap { known issue as they crack when not removed properly] If you take the little covers with the moto guzzi badges off and watch in the dark you'll see a cracked one arcing to ground. The resulting miss fire will send un burned gas into the exhaust overheating the catalytic converter. Get some new NGK plug caps, # SB05E and carry on.
Listen to this man. This is almost certainly the source of your glowing pipe problem. What will of happened is someone has removed the plug caps by grabbing them with pliers or some such from the top and pulling them off. This causes the rubber to tear and then the spark will arc to earth on the rocker cover. The plug caps should be removed by levering them up from underneath using a long, thin, flat bladed screwdriver inserted through the cooling tunnel in the head just above the exhaust manifold.
As for wearing the cost of inspection of the tappets, (They will be failing. They all do. No exceptions.) pulling the left hand cambox takes 15 minutes. The right hand one about 20 minutes more. There is a YouTube vid of me doing the left one somewhere. Perhaps someone else cleverer than me can link it up again. Your bike being a 2009 will need a 'C' kit. Ways of doing it cheaper have been explained before.
Pete
PS. I think this is the video link.
http://youtu.be/VYhG5leoUQk
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Listen to this man. This is almost certainly the source of your glowing pipe problem. What will of happened is someone has removed the plug caps by grabbing them with pliers or some such from the top and pulling them off. This causes the rubber to tear and then the spark will arc to earth on the rocker cover. The plug caps should be removed by levering them up from underneath using a long, thin, flat bladed screwdriver inserted through the cooling tunnel in the head just above the exhaust manifold.
As for wearing the cost of inspection of the tappets, (They will be failing. They all do. No exceptions.) pulling the left hand cambox takes 15 minutes. The right hand one about 20 minutes more. There is a YouTube vid of me doing the left one somewhere. Perhaps someone else cleverer than me can link it up again. Your bike being a 2009 will need a 'C' kit. Ways of doing it cheaper have been explained before.
Pete
PS. I think this is the video link.
http://youtu.be/VYhG5leoUQk
Pete, I am very much appreciative of your assistance here mate! I am mechanically inclined. I do much of my own work on my car, well things like brakes and rotors, etc. I watched the video and you make it look very easily, but it's properly done video and the only bits I wasn't sure about was, what was the pin that you were putting in the sides of the head? I assume that was to hold the cam and chain from spinning, but didn't see what the pins looked like. The other bit was when you said something of the sort, "this is the hardest part", as you were inserting the long screw driver and holding it tight, as you were moving the pin on the side. Can you clarify?
So, basically, this is the job to do the rollerization? I am not sure if you recommend a site that I can purchase the "C" kit for my Griso. I was told the total job to determine if I needed it rollerized and replaced was ~$1,400.00. The bike is definitely a keeper, but it was hefty amount to come up with. What do these kits run?
Also, in terms of the plug caps, is replacing the entire H.T. cable or just replace the cap itself?
I can't tell you how appreciative I am for the assistance here.
Once I know where to buy the "C" kit, I will just get cracking and get the upgrade done myself. I work pretty cheap! LOL.
Cheers,
Jon
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Have a look at this thread.
https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=78160.0
And ask further questions as required.
As for the kit? I'd suggest buy a 'B' kit from Teo Lamers and add in the other bits needed to make it up to a 'C' kit. Purchase only the head gaskets you need rather than the whole six supplied in the 'C' kit.
Other parts required are.
Four valve guide oil seals, four inlet valve shims, intake and exhaust manifold gaskets and two head gaskets of the same thickness as your originals.
Actually scrub that. It seems that the price in the US has been reduced making it probably just as cheap to buy a C
C kit from AF-1 and save yourself the hassle! They have them listed at $799 US! A month or so ago they were $1200!
Just did a bit of cross checking and even if you buy a B kit from TLM by the time you've added the extras and postage you might as well just chuck the money to AF-1 who are top blokes anyway.
:thumb:
Pete
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47927546107_921f5c2ebe_z.jpg)
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Man, that's a smoking deal on the c kit ,, I paid 1,400 u.s. for mine two years ago. Definately secure one of those while they are available.
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Here's the link.
https://www.af1racing.com/store/Scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=70079&sku=1A002082&description=Moto+Guzzi+Bucket+Tappet+Update+Kit+C+%2D+1A002082
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And I happened to notice they have a great deal on a new 2016 Eldorado!
https://www.af1racingaustin.com/moto-guzzi-inventory/2016-moto-guzzi-eldorado-1400
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Do not test the temperature by inserting your finger in to that exhaust when it glows red.
Advice sort of like "Do not look into the laser with your remaining eye".
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Do not test the temperature by inserting your finger in to that exhaust when it glows red.
Advice sort of like "Do not look into the laser with your remaining eye".
Is there another appendage you might suggest?
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Never heard of anyone recommending 87 octane. Anybody else do this? I have always run hi-test.
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While I don't know the particulars , generally use only the highest the engine needs to prevent pre ignition or detonation. otherwise if the octane is too high, it burns too late to do anything but heat up the exhaust . 140 octane comes to mind. That's the simple explanation as I understand it.
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I try to buy ethanol free whenever I can.
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I get free gas from Taco Bell.
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Never heard of anyone recommending 87 octane. Anybody else do this? I have always run hi-test.
The US-version manual, 2010 edition, for the Griso 1200 says:
"USA unleaded fuel minimum octane rating (R+M)/2 method 90"
So does the 2008 edition.
Moto
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The 8V will run on pretty much any old possum piss. It will run appreciably better on higher octane stuff. In Oz we are on the whole very lucky as our fuel quality, at least in populated areas near the coast, is consistently good! Far more so than in the US oddly enough!
The only time I've ever had issues with my Griso was travelling west from Gilgandra to Broken hill with a pack of hooligans. We filled up at some god-forsaken road house way out beyond the Black Stump and made the mistake of choosing the 95 octane. It must of been in the tanks for months, (Most vehicle's out there are diesels and petrol cars will all run standard unleaded.) and the next 200km which we covered at quite a fair clip were plagued by detonation problems. Next fill up we managed to get 98 from a place that obviously got a bit more traffic and the problem vanished. We don't have ethanol in most of our fuel either but I'd always suggest going with the highest octane you can find.
Pete
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Pete, I'm pretty sure the closest that bowser ever got to 95 octane was when we pulled up next to it.
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The tank decals are peeling due to the expansion of the plastic tank from corn gas?
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I wouldn't skimp on octane running a big-cylinder, air-cooled engine, especially in heat, humidity and traffic.
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That's why I was surprised a dealer would recommend 87. My Norge is pretty sensitive to fuel quality.
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Any of mine sure seem to run better and get better milage with 92 octane. 100 from the airport, not so much, although you can tune to use it then you are stuck filling at airports. I think it may be the case that the posted octane rating on the pump is overly optimistic
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That's why I was surprised a dealer would recommend 87. My Norge is pretty sensitive to fuel quality.
The same dealer that wants 1400 dollars to inspect the cam followers, and likely broke the plug cap? What so surprising?
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The same dealer that wants 1400 dollars to inspect the cam followers, and likely broke the plug cap? What so surprising?
Lucian, well said! The head guy told me, not only was it $1,400 to tear down the cambox, but he couldn't guarantee if Piaggio would pay for the upgrade kit, so he said that would be another ~$1,400. He said my bike would take the "C" kit, like Pete said and that is a much bigger job, so worst case scenario was $2,800 plus 6% sales tax and that would be half of the bikes worth. I just said, I will have to think it over and consider what to do. He just kept saying it was a complex job and costly.
He mentioned the fuel octane bit right afterwards. He asked me what fuel octane that I run in the bike, I said, 92 or 93 octane, which is what I've run in all my bikes. I have been always been of the mindset that the higher octane fuel would burning cleaner and makes the engine run more efficiently. He told me I was wrong! He said, don't run anything higher than 87 octane. Maybe he was thinking it was better to have the motor run hot to avoid moisture in the cam box leading to further issues with the flat tappets.
Thanks Pete for sharing your video and the link to the thread on how to do the job. The video seems very straightforward and I know I could do that, but if I have to take the head off, I might be over my head on the job. I am not sure what kit you were placing in the Griso you were working on, because you left the motor on the bike and didn't take the head off. Maybe taking the head off isn't a big deal, but I would ask, is there any specific tools for this job and is there a place with all the torque specs when reassembling?
If I am going to replace the H.T. cable caps, do I just cut the old off and rewire the new ones? Also, what do you recommend for new spark plugs, as I should probably replace the old ones. BTW, the mileage that is on my 2009 Giso is 5,963 to be exact. I will have to change the oil, what grade oil and is synthetic the way to go? Any recommendations.
Last two things off topic:
1. I also noticed a slight drip of oil coming from the flex hose bit where it connects to the oil pain. Is this a common problem and if so, do I just order a new hose?
2. The front caliper is dripping a little fluid onto the front rim. I don't know why, but it might just need a new gasket. Thoughts?
Thanks a million to all of you for your input!
Jon
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If I am going to replace the H.T. cable caps, do I just cut the old off and rewire the new ones? Also, what do you recommend for new spark plugs, as I should probably replace the old ones. BTW, the mileage that is on my 2009 Giso is 5,963 to be exact. I will have to change the oil, what grade oil and is synthetic the way to go? Any recommendations.
Dave Richardson of Moto International (when it was active) recommended NGK CR8EIX Platinum plugs
with NGK SB05F spark plug caps.
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Lucian, well said! The head guy told me, not only was it $1,400 to tear down the cambox, but he couldn't guarantee if Piaggio would pay for the upgrade kit, so he said that would be another ~$1,400. He said my bike would take the "C" kit, like Pete said and that is a much bigger job, so worst case scenario was $2,800 plus 6% sales tax and that would be half of the bikes worth. I just said, I will have to think it over and consider what to do. He just kept saying it was a complex job and costly.
He mentioned the fuel octane bit right afterwards. He asked me what fuel octane that I run in the bike, I said, 92 or 93 octane, which is what I've run in all my bikes. I have been always been of the mindset that the higher octane fuel would burning cleaner and makes the engine run more efficiently. He told me I was wrong! He said, don't run anything higher than 87 octane. Maybe he was thinking it was better to have the motor run hot to avoid moisture in the cam box leading to further issues with the flat tappets.
Thanks Pete for sharing your video and the link to the thread on how to do the job. The video seems very straightforward and I know I could do that, but if I have to take the head off, I might be over my head on the job. I am not sure what kit you were placing in the Griso you were working on, because you left the motor on the bike and didn't take the head off. Maybe taking the head off isn't a big deal, but I would ask, is there any specific tools for this job and is there a place with all the torque specs when reassembling?
If I am going to replace the H.T. cable caps, do I just cut the old off and rewire the new ones? Also, what do you recommend for new spark plugs, as I should probably replace the old ones. BTW, the mileage that is on my 2009 Giso is 5,963 to be exact. I will have to change the oil, what grade oil and is synthetic the way to go? Any recommendations.
Last two things off topic:
1. I also noticed a slight drip of oil coming from the flex hose bit where it connects to the oil pain. Is this a common problem and if so, do I just order a new hose?
2. The front caliper is dripping a little fluid onto the front rim. I don't know why, but it might just need a new gasket. Thoughts?
Thanks a million to all of you for your input!
Jon
Vis a vis the head removal the only other thing you have to do to get the head off is pull the exhaust manifolds and disconnect the inlet manifolds. You do one side at a time so the inlet manifold and throttle body just stay where they are. The head will just lift off. You leave the cam sprocket in the chain and rest it on the tensioner and guide blades.
The only real 'Special tools' you'll need are a valve spring compressor and a decent torque wrench. To answer your earlier question WRT the pin in the back of the barrel? You lever back the blade of the cam chain tensioner to collapse the tensioner plunger. You use the pin, which can be just about anything. (A small Allen key or the like. I often use an old carburettor needle.) goes through the tensioner blade and into a hole in the wall on the other side of the cam chain tunnel and holds the blade back so that when you come to putting the sprocket back on the cam there is ample free play in the chain. On the right hand barrel you just take the cap off the reservoir for the tensioner plunger to achieve the same thing.
Now before you throw yourself into this it is important to realise that this is undertaking major work on the engine. It's not particularly difficult but the consequences of stuffing something like the valve timing up on reassembly can be catastrophic. At the same time it has to be said that the 'Technician' at your shop scarcely fills one with confidence if he claims that inspecting the tappets is a $1,400 job! We charge about 6.5 hours for a 'C' kit install. It usually runs to about 8 if people take our advice and let us drop both the sump and the spacer to replace the spacer gasket. They usually do.
As for plugs? CR8EKB light the fire just fine. The SB05E caps just screw on to the stock plug leads. You may have to snip the brass screw fitting off the cap end of the HT lead.
Pete
PS. Fix that brake fluid leak! That's insanely dangerous!
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Last two things off topic:
1. I also noticed a slight drip of oil coming from the flex hose bit where it connects to the oil pain. Is this a common problem and if so, do I just order a new hose?
Sorry, forgot to address this one.
Get underneath and have a really good look at where that oil is coming from. It is very rare for the condensate return line to leak but having said that it is now ten years old so it may well of hardened up and be weeping.
What you need to make sure of is that the oil isn't coming out of the large slot at the bottom of the bell housing directly above the hose. If that area is wet with oil running from inside the bell housing it is, unfortunately, far more likely that you have the dreaded leaky rear main bearing flange.
Some of the 2008/9 A5 engines had the case poorly machined so the oil feed dowel wouldn't allow the flange to seat properly and the problem was exacerbated by the factory using too long bolts in the bottom two holes in the flange.
If your bike has this problem then the only solution is to pull the gearbox and clutch, remove the flange, file down the offending oil feed dowel a mm or two, replace the o-ring, (Prefferably with one of a slightly thicker section.) and refit the flange without the gasket but using a thin smear of threebond on the mating surface and two new bolts 5mm shorter in the bottom flange holes.
This is, needless to say, a pretty big job. If your shop wanted to charge you $1,400 to inspect the tappets they'd probably demand the entire contents of Fort Knox to pull the gearbox so let's hope it is the pipe!
If they do have to pull the flange make sure they have the correct tool and don't try to hammer it out from the inside with a punch like the one I had to deal with last year that had been 'Repaired' multiple times by one of the worst shaved apes I've ever encountered!
(https://live.staticflickr.com/950/40336109250_302b05069b_z.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/956/41241688895_6a368f3766_z.jpg)
You can see the offending oil feed dowel in the next one.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/962/41241688085_ea4dddd661_z.jpg)
You wouldn't want to use too little sicaflex now would you?
(https://live.staticflickr.com/968/27271897647_09c9a6acd5_z.jpg)
Barbarian!
Pete
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Now *that* is some serious shaved apery.. :grin:
and to the OP, I wouldn't even consider taking it to that shop. They are clueless.
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Hope I haven't scared him off!
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Hope I haven't scared him off!
No mate, I am not scared just yet! Like I said, the video link that you posted made this look fairly straight forward. I think possibly screwing up the timing and the head removal got me a little more concerned, so I've got to think about this a bit more, also including how many days it will take me -- ha!
I am pretty sure I can handle it, but I am curious how many out there on the forum have done the "C" kit replacement from soup-to-nuts?
Once I dig in I will be in deep and there will be no turning back! I am sure you all would help me if I got stuck along the way.
I will keep you posted. I need to get this done before the riding season here really gets underway!
Cheers,
Jon
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Jon, I have a 2008, that I did a C kit on, there are a few things you want to be sure to get right. One of them is to be sure you loosen the small bolt at the bottom rear of the cylinder head BEFORE you undo the head bolts. Not doing so could warp the head. Also be very careful not to drop anything down the cam chain tunnels or oil feed passages. Cam timing will be no problem if you just do one side at a time and do not move the crank position off from TDC . Also be sure and keep track of your valves and return them to their original locations if you remove more than one at a time. I made my own valve spring compression tool from a deep socket by cutting out one side and a big c-clamp. A rod magnet is handy for removing the keepers. Replacing your plug caps will cure the poor running , missfire and cat problem,but you really want to get the roller conversion done soon . Best of luck with it!
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Jon, I have a 2008, that I did a C kit on, there are a few things you want to be sure to get right. One of them is to be sure you loosen the small bolt at the bottom rear of the cylinder head BEFORE you undo the head bolts. Not doing so could warp the head. Also be very careful not to drop anything down the cam chain tunnels or oil feed passages. Cam timing will be no problem if you just do one side at a time and do not move the crank position off from TDC . Also be sure and keep track of your valves and return them to their original locations if you remove more than one at a time. I made my own valve spring compression tool from a deep socket by cutting out one side and a big c-clamp. A rod magnet is handy for removing the keepers. Replacing your plug caps will cure the poor running , missfire and cat problem,but you really want to get the roller conversion done soon . Best of luck with it!
Lucian,
Cheers mate! I most certainly appreciate you sharing your experience. I would approach this in stages, one side at a time, so that everything is taken apart in a systematic order and just would reassemble in the reverse. Judging by the looks of things, most of the bolts are metric allen? Did you need any long handle "T" allen keys? Where also able to track down a torque spec manual so that everything is retorqued to spec?
Pete, how long of a screw driver did you use as lever for the cam pin? I pegged it to be on the video something like 350 mil long and have no idea with width of end bit.
My hats of to you all for being such a lovely group!
Jon
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The length isn't critical but it needs to be thin enough to slip between the chain and tensioner blade and long enough to go down as far as the tensioner plunger.
The tensioner blade is very frangible, not fragile but it will crack if abused. The idea is to get the end of the screwdriver down and over the plunger so when you apply pressure you are pressing on the blade directly above the plunger so you aren't forcing the blade to flex. You just keep pressure on the screwdriver and feed the pin in through the hole in the back of the barrel. It will slip through the hole in the tensioner blade and when the plunger has collapsed sufficiently you will be able to feel it slip into the hole on the other side of the camchain tunnel.
Once it has done that you can release the pressure on the screwdriver and you will feel the tensioner blade try to push back towards the chain but it will be located and held by the pin.
You do this with the piston at or very close to TDC compression and when you then remove the cam sprocket retainer bolt and flinger plate you will be able to see the timing pin at the 6 O'clock position in line with the bore of the cylinder. The sprocket can then be wriggled off the cam and allowed to drop and sit in between the tensioner and guide blades for the chain.
Assuming you have already removed the exhaust header and disconnected the inlet manifold from the head all you then need to do is loosen and remove the two long bolts (8mm head, 6mm shank.) that clamp the back of the cam chain tunnel before removing the four main stud nuts that retain the cambox and head.
The cambox can then be removes as shown in the video before finally the cylinder head can be slid off the studs. Take note that on two of the studs between both the barrel and head and head and cambox there are dowels. These are the studs that also act as oil galleries feeding oil to the cam bearings and weir. Not only do they do that but they also positively align the head and cambox casting. Note where they go and don't loose them! It might be worth purchasing a couple of new ones, (They only cost pennies.) as it is easy to bugger them up pulling them out of the cambox.
Pete
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The length isn't critical but it needs to be thin enough to slip between the chain and tensioner blade and long enough to go down as far as the tensioner plunger.
The tensioner blade is very frangible, not fragile but it will crack if abused. The idea is to get the end of the screwdriver down and over the plunger so when you apply pressure you are pressing on the blade directly above the plunger so you aren't forcing the blade to flex. You just keep pressure on the screwdriver and feed the pin in through the hole in the back of the barrel. It will slip through the hole in the tensioner blade and when the plunger has collapsed sufficiently you will be able to feel it slip into the hole on the other side of the camchain tunnel.
Once it has done that you can release the pressure on the screwdriver and you will feel the tensioner blade try to push back towards the chain but it will be located and held by the pin.
You do this with the piston at or very close to TDC compression and when you then remove the cam sprocket retainer bolt and flinger plate you will be able to see the timing pin at the 6 O'clock position in line with the bore of the cylinder. The sprocket can then be wriggled off the cam and allowed to drop and sit in between the tensioner and guide blades for the chain.
Assuming you have already removed the exhaust header and disconnected the inlet manifold from the head all you then need to do is loosen and remove the two long bolts (8mm head, 6mm shank.) that clamp the back of the cam chain tunnel before removing the four main stud nuts that retain the cambox and head.
The cambox can then be removes as shown in the video before finally the cylinder head can be slid off the studs. Take note that on two of the studs between both the barrel and head and head and cambox there are dowels. These are the studs that also act as oil galleries feeding oil to the cam bearings and weir. Not only do they do that but they also positively align the head and cambox casting. Note where they go and don't loose them! It might be worth purchasing a couple of new ones, (They only cost pennies.) as it is easy to bugger them up pulling them out of the cambox.
Pete
Pete, you are good mate to have on this forum! Thank you so much! I will keep you all posted!
Cheers,
Jon
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Pete or anyone here,
Does anyone have a PDF or link for the 2009 Moto Guzzi Griso 8V, 1200 workshop manual? I have searched, but not much is coming up. I just thought I would ask. I am looking for torque specs for the bike when I pushon with reassembly after rollerization is complete. I want to make sure everything is to spec.
Thanks,
Jon
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Does anyone have a PDF or link for the 2009 Moto Guzzi Griso 8V, 1200 workshop manual?
This one should work.
http://www.guzzigander.com/Griso%201200SE%20SM.pdf
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I'm a decent wrench and not afraid of much, but this in head cam system with the intermediate shaft and upper chain system makes me very hesitant to try. NO offense but looking at your logic and approach thus far, I think youre making a mistake attempting to fix it on your own. BTW, I think that you are dumping unburnt gas into your cat and muffler..... This is why it is all glowy red.... You likely need to do the plug upgrade. Simple task, 5 minute job. I've had good luck with MG Cycle and AF1 for decals. AF1 has a parts microfiche you can order straight off by part number.
Welcome to the forum & look forward to seeing you get your Griso straight!
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This one should work.
http://www.guzzigander.com/Griso%201200SE%20SM.pdf
Thanks Kiwi Dave! This is what I was looking for!
Mate, I appreciate you coming through for me on the workshop manual for my bike!
Cheers,
Jon
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I'm a decent wrench and not afraid of much, but this in head cam system with the intermediate shaft and upper chain system makes me very hesitant to try. NO offense but looking at your logic and approach thus far, I think youre making a mistake attempting to fix it on your own. BTW, I think that you are dumping unburnt gas into your cat and muffler..... This is why it is all glowy red.... You likely need to do the plug upgrade. Simple task, 5 minute job. I've had good luck with MG Cycle and AF1 for decals. AF1 has a parts microfiche you can order straight off by part number.
Welcome to the forum & look forward to seeing you get your Griso straight!
Bulldog9,
I appreciate your honesty, sincerity, and perspective on the topic of DIY rollerization of my 2009 Griso. I can assure you that I am not taking this job light at all. I have my doubts and don't want to bollack the job by any means. As I had mentioned in prior posts, I am pretty good with mechanical repairs. I put a clutch in one of my cars in my younger days and perhaps that job was less complex than dealing with the rollerization. When it comes to timing, I certainly don't want to screw that up and end up bending a value or shooting straight out of the cam headcover, which is why I wanted to get a copy of the workshop manual on my bike. I want to research all aspects of the job and size up if I feel capable. Wisdom tells me to look at all options and make the best decision, which may end up with me taking my bike to the dealer and having them do the job. I am going to put a call into the dealer and see if the cost of the job has decreased fom 2-years ago. If it is more reasonable, I may just have them do it, as they will be able to get it done faster than I can.
Thanks again for the input,
Jon
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The system used on the Hi-Cam 8V is really very simple. It's one of it's joys of a system that uses an intermediate gear for the speed reduction. One of the things I like about engines like that in the SWM/Husky and say the Aprilia Shiver which are DOHC designs is that by using an intermediate gear you make valve checks a snap.
While that is already the case with Guzzis the simplicity and ease of timing the cams correctly is really no different to the way it's done on the old pushrod engines, it's just that you have to line things up once each side rather than just once in the timing chest. Since the primary timing system is by gear and the chains seem to last a very, very long time this means that going into the bottom end will be a very rare occurrence.
They are a beautifully simple engines. Don't be afraid of them.
Pete
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I suspect your catalytic converter in the exhaust is overheating due to un burnt fuel. My first guess is a bad spark plug cap { known issue as they crack when not removed properly] If you take the little covers with the moto guzzi badges off and watch in the dark you'll see a cracked one arcing to ground. The resulting miss fire will send un burned gas into the exhaust overheating the catalytic converter. Get some new NGK plug caps, # SB05E and carry on.
Ok everyone,
I took off the side covers and took off the H.T. cable caps, which turns out to be: NGK-CR 3 SD05EMK. I am not sure if the operation will be the same as the cutting off the stock caps and replacing them with the NGK SB05E. I don't want to make any assumptions.
I did try to see if I could just order replacement wires, but all I could find was: CR3/8089, which are ~$15 USD, but don't know if they are the same. I might have to call NGK and check with them.
Nonetheless, I would suspect that I can just snip off the cap end and put the NGK SB05E.
Thoughts??
Thanks,
Jon
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Those are not stock. Already been changed.
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Yes, you can snip those off and screw on the new ones. Sure looks like a carbon track in the last photo near your thumb. I would cut those suckers off and screw on the sbo5e's . You can try firing it up in a dark place with the old ones and watch for an ark but it may be arcing down inside the plug tube a ways making it harder to see. You can sometimes hear it snapping as well. But why bother if you have the new ones , There cheap enough, just throw them on and be done with it. Any copper core HT lead from an auto parts store will do if you want to switch out the wires. Good luck!
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Yah. I'd make sure that the HT lead you use is copper core rather than the graphite or whatever ones they use nowadays. For some reason Guzzi don't seem to like them.
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Yes, you can snip those off and screw on the new ones. Sure looks like a carbon track in the last photo near your thumb. I would cut those suckers off and screw on the sbo5e's . You can try firing it up in a dark place with the old ones and watch for an ark but it may be arcing down inside the plug tube a ways making it harder to see. You can sometimes hear it snapping as well. But why bother if you have the new ones , There cheap enough, just throw them on and be done with it. Any copper core HT lead from an auto parts store will do if you want to switch out the wires. Good luck!
I did try to start it with the plug caps off and obviously it won't start, but I didn't see any arch nor hear any crackles, but I am going to cut them off and put the NGK SB05E caps on tomorrow.
Cheers,
Jon
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Jon . You would have to have the caps on to start it up and watch/ listen for arcing. in the dark. No point to it really,other that satisfying curiosity.Just put your new ones on. I would throw a set of plugs in while your at it as a bad one could also be causing the miss fire. Any good auto store should have them and I would stay with the NGK plugs if possible.
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I did try to start it with the plug caps off
Modern ignitions don't like that. I wouldn't do it unless you have a grounded plug on it.
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Could always try the old trick of sticking his tongue in the cap and putting a hand on the cylinder head before pressing the starter.
No. Don't! Really, it wouldn't be a good idea.
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I know a kid that tried to stop a Gravely tractor by peeing on the spark plug.. :shocked:
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Gentlemen,
The first operation is complete. I have performed the spark plug cap replacements and it fired up and idled smoothly. I took her out for a test ride just around the block and I have to say, WOW---She is BACK!
:gotpics: :bike-037:
The acceleration is streamline and there is not bogging down anymore. The silencer was not glowing orange-red, as before! The only thing I noticed when I first started it was some subtle smoke out of the exhaust, but that seem to clear. I suspect it may be residue in the silencer from the issue that started me out here.
I have to say a BIG thank you to both Lucian and Pete for this very straightforward and simple fix. I can at least ride some whilst I prepare further research into the tappet upgrade. I am going to order the "C" kit in the next week and figure out what really is the best way to go. I have a call into the closest Guzzi dealership and will see what the labor would cost and how long they would have it for.
I am confident I can do this job myself, but I do appreciate the words of wisdom from both Bulldog9 and Pete. Two different perspectives and I need to weigh my options and budget.
I have included a picture of the old plugs. The left cylinder plug looked much worse than the right, so I am inclined to think that the problem was on the left spark cap.
In the meantime, I am going to look at getting new oil and a new filter. What are your recommendations?
I also looked at the spark plug torque specs which call for 30Nm, unfortunately, my torque wrench only goes down to 30Nm, so I may have to invest in another one for smaller torques. Any suggestions on that, too?
I am most gracious for the assistance here!
Cheers,
Jon
(https://i.ibb.co/Jrk60Xp/UNADJUSTEDNONRAW-thumb-10f82.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Jrk60Xp)
upload picture (https://imgbb.com/)
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:thumb: :thumb: New plugs, spin in by hand with only an extension on your plug socket , No ratchet,fingers on the extension like a screwdriver, until snug, then add your ratchet and give em 3/4 turn. Done... Used plugs 1/2 turn . If you want to take a 9 hr road trip to Maine I'd be happy to help you with the rollerization when the time comes. Hopefully some closer will be available but the offer stands. Glad your back on the mighty Griss.
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:thumb: :thumb: New plugs, spin in by hand with only an extension on your plug socket , No ratchet,fingers on the extension like a screwdriver, until snug, then add your ratchet and give em 3/4 turn. Done... Used plugs 1/2 turn . If you want to take a 9 hr road trip to Maine I'd be happy to help you with the rollerization when the time comes. Hopefully some closer will be available but the offer stands. Glad your back on the mighty Griss.
BRAVO! Lucian, it would be a great trip and I've never been to Maine, so you never know. I sincerely appreciate the offer!!!! You just might see me!
Jon
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Sorry Jon , I missed the oil and filter question. Any full synthetic 10 w 60 oil will do. Most Nappa auto part stores will have Liquid moly available. I usually mail order my filters from Seacoast sport cycles in N.H. They will ship you Silkolean 10 /60 also. Great Guzzi dealer here in the north east. If you don't have a cup wrench for your filter they will have one of those as well. Cheers!
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I would strongly advise against riding it or even starting it again until it is rollerised.
Pete
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Pete makes a valid point. Without knowing the condition of the flat followers it would be wise to get it rollerized asap. If the DLC coating has begun shedding { mine started at only 3,000 miles} it can go downhill very fast and you risk a complete horror show if that DLC ends up in the big end bearings. Unfortunately, it's not if it fails but when. Kind of a ticking time bomb.
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I'll pile on. Don't ride it again until rollerized.
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Sorry Jon , I missed the oil and filter question. Any full synthetic 10 w 60 oil will do. Most Nappa auto part stores will have Liquid moly available. I usually mail order my filters from Seacoast sport cycles in N.H. They will ship you Silkolean 10 /60 also. Great Guzzi dealer here in the north east. If you don't have a cup wrench for your filter they will have one of those as well. Cheers!
I am happy to use them. Can you order online?
Also, what make and model oil filter to you use?
Thanks,
Jon
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I would strongly advise against riding it or even starting it again until it is rollerised.
Pete
Thanks Pete, Lucian, and Chuck from Indiana!
I figured you guys would say that! I will follow accordingly!
Now just got to get on with it finding out do I have the dealer do it or just hunker down and order the "C" kit and start the job myself.
Pete, Lucian, or anyone else, is any specific tools I might need? A special torque wrench? I discovered mine only goes down to 30Nm, so I need one that goes down to 5Nm. Any suggestions?
Also, what about a torque wrench for the allen head bolts?
Thank you kindly in advance,
Jon
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Sorry Jon , I missed the oil and filter question. Any full synthetic 10 w 60 oil will do. Most Nappa auto part stores will have Liquid moly available. I usually mail order my filters from Seacoast sport cycles in N.H. They will ship you Silkolean 10 /60 also. Great Guzzi dealer here in the north east. If you don't have a cup wrench for your filter they will have one of those as well. Cheers!
Lucian, if my math is correct 214 cu.in for the oil capacity listed in the workshop manual is 214 converts to 3.5L. So, if I buy a 4L container of 10W60 Silkolean, I should be good?
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Hey Jon. You got it right . I pre fill my filter with oil always, and fill engine to halfway between the low and high marks on the dipstick. Bike needs to be straight upright and dipstick should be resting on the threads and not screwed in. Don't fill to the top full mark as Guzzi's like to expel oil into the air box when over filled.
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3 litres is all I can fit in (to the half-way mark).
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Yeah, while I fill with a drum pump after the filter is filled the deep sump 1200's all seem to take about three litres to halfway up the stick. The shallow sump Griso's and 1400's seem to take a bit more which would seem counterintuitive but I think that's because there is less superstructure in the case.
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Yeah, while I fill with a drum pump after the filter is filled the deep sump 1200's all seem to take about three litres to halfway up the stick. The shallow sump Griso's and 1400's seem to take a bit more which would seem counterintuitive but I think that's because there is less superstructure in the case.
Pete, Lucian, and the WildGoose Flock: what make/model number filter do you suggest?
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These Oil Filters
have 3/4"-16 threads,
8 psi by-pass valve,
anti-drain back valve.
and are about 3" / 3.5" long
Recommended filters in blue.Available filters includePurolator PL14476 / PL14477Mobil1 M1-102Mobil1 M1MC-131Mobil1 M1MC-132 (CHrome)Bosch 3330Walmart Supertech ST4967 / 4386AMSOil SMF 133/134/135Baldwin B33 / B37Fram PH4967Hastings Lh410 / LF 413HiFlo HF199K&N KN-170NAPA 1394Purolator ML16822WIX 51394 / 51396
Guzzi recommended and I used Bosch 3330 for a long time. They have recently changed, and have a sticker on them. I'd get that off before using. Many have reported using the Suptertech from Wally world. WIX makes good filters.
I no longer use the UFIs..
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Lots of choices for CARC oil filter alternatives. Here is what I am tracking, though I have only used the Hiflo, Bosch and WIX.
Hiflofiltro HF551
Bosch# 3330 or 3400 (taller)
Purolator Pure One pl10241
FRAM PH3614 or Fram PH6022 use Fram at own risk)
K&N HP-1002
WIX # 51215
NAPA Gold # 1215
Wix makes great filters and will fit. Napa gold is the same filter as Wix. I found that these filters are just a hair smaller diameter than the HiFlo or Guzzi. A folded piece of paper towel between filter and socket fills the gap perfectly to be spun off.
And in case this wasn't enough useless information, :cool: check out this link. Been using this for years. https://www.oilfilter-crossreference.com/convert/BOSCH/3330
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An OEM oil filter is ~$15 ... I looked up one of these other suggestions and seemed to be around $8-$9 ... so we buy $1400 rear shocks and $1000 fork cartridge kits but can't spend an extra $7 at each oil change? :laugh: :grin: :huh:
My plan is to keep buying the AF1 kits ... factory recommended oil, OEM filter/washers/orings. But I'm only doing 1 oil change a year so I figure that isn't too bad money wise for me.
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An OEM oil filter is ~$15 ... I looked up one of these other suggestions and seemed to be around $8-$9 ... so we buy $1400 rear shocks and $1000 fork cartridge kits but can't spend an extra $7 at each oil change? :laugh: :grin: :huh:
My plan is to keep buying the AF1 kits ... factory recommended oil, OEM filter/washers/orings. But I'm only doing 1 oil change a year so I figure that isn't too bad money wise for me.
It's *not* price related. It's UFI quality control related..
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It's *not* price related. It's UFI quality control related..
Bingo. And between my wife's bike and the ones I ride, I have to do 7 or 8 per year. It does start adding up.
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It's *not* price related. It's UFI quality control related..
So the OEM filters have issues? (Being serious here, I don't know this area very well) Thanks
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I simply call Curtis at Harpers Moto Guzzi and tell him to send me what I need to service my 1400. The kit includes the valve cover gaskets. No runs no leaks and No errors:)
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:kiss:
So the OEM filters have issues? (Being serious here, I don't know this area very well) Thanks
Yes. The documented issues are:
Leaking at the crimp between the can and base.
Gaskets either too thin or of the wrong material.
Paint coming off.
We've seen all of these on WG and the V11 forums. The original "Hose clamp" thing came from a spate of filters that came loose at Moto International. I'm pretty sure :evil: they knew how to install a filter. In my mind, it was a bad batch that started the whole mess. I haven't used them for years, and won't. There are plenty of alternatives..
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Thanks for all the info! It really helps!
Jon