Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Lannis on November 20, 2019, 09:09:04 PM
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If someone wrote in and described the problem that my Stelvio is having, and said that THEIR Stelvio was having it, I'd know exactly what to tell them. (And so would a lot of other people, as evidenced on threads here and other fora).
Now comes the hard part. Following my own advice to deal with it logically and systematically. Somehow it's different when it's your own bike. The bike has always been an easy starter, but when Fay and I hopped onto it Saturday morning and turned on the key, all the lights came on nicely, the instruments did their little dance, fuel pump hummed, pushed the starter ....
.... and got just the faint little relay click. Not the solenoid thunk, but the faint click from under the plastic. I checked whether it was in gear, cycled in and out of neutral, turned the key off and on, same thing. So we hopped OFF the Stelvio, onto the Triumph, and went to the Guzzi lunch improperly dressed for the occasion, being the only non-Guzzi there.
Step 1 - Battery is always the first suspect. So out with the battery and stick it on the load tester. It had been a month since the bike had been used but the voltage was over 12v, and remained over 12v when I put a load on it. But maybe it's marginal. So I charged it up nice and slow (2 amps for the sealed Yuasa), and tested it again. 12.7 volts, and put the load on it and held 12.4 volts under a 60 amp load until the coils were smoking on the tester. THIS one is good, so put it back on, screw the battery terminals on nice and tight, and ...
Same thing. So it's not the battery or the battery connections.
Step 2 - So maybe it's the + battery connection to the solenoid, or the big ground cable, wherever that's grounded to, I've never tracked it down. That's tomorrow. I can already tell that some plastic has to come off, so patience and a good attitude will be needed ....
Lannis
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Give the battery terminals and cable ends a really good clean too.
The main earth strap locates to the 'Thingy', top bolt of the starter motor cover screws into the 'Thingy'! :grin:
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Give the battery terminals and cable ends a really good clean too.
The main earth strap locates to the 'Thingy', top bolt of the starter motor cover screws into the 'Thingy'! :grin:
Yep, in a situation where the system will apparently pass "little" currents but not "big" ones, the battery terminals and all four cable ends and their mating surfaces will be made shiny and bright and be beyond suspicion before any other steps are taken. It's been 8 years, after all, and I haven't spared it by riding it in the dry only.
I thought I knew what a "Thingy" was, but if my motorcycle has one, then I guess I don't know, really. But I'll find it.
Lannis
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It's a strange little hexagonal spacer, 13mm AF. It has a 4mm threaded bit on the inner side that the earth straps bolt under to the gearbox and then it's got another 4mm thread on the outer end that the starter motor cover screw goes into. Be careful not to over tighten it or it will strip!
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And then it will be broke and there will be nothing left but to send the wreck to me and I will dispose of it for free.
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Sounds like you have a great plan to attack the problem, cleaning all the major cables.
As I have mentioned before, if that doesn't solve the problem, try running a 12ish gauge wire from the battery to the starter solenoid trigger and see if it spins over.
Good luck,
Tom
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Your Stelvio has the same wiring as the Brevas that suffer from Startus Interuptus, 12 Volts fed through the ignition switch then back to fuse 2
and a yellow wire feeding the Start relay. It has a funny feature, the number plate light is also on the yellow wire acting as a little Voltage tell-tail lamp. I suspect if you were to watch the light you would see it turn on with the key then go out when you press start as the voltage drops to zero.
The fix for the Breva was usually to snip the yellow wire just before the relay and provide it with a new feed direct from the battery through a 20 Amp fuse.
The instant the Start Relay closes 45 to 50 Amps rushes into the solenoid coils (both of them) to pull the starting gear into mesh then it drops to just around 10 Amps while the starter is turning over. Actually with this wiring the current will never be over 30 and the solenoid is barely able to do its job.
If you are interested take an Ohm reading of the solenoid spade connector to chassis, you will see that its less than 1.2 Ohm which it would be if there was just one coil as shown on the schematic. There is a second coil that goes from the spade connector to the armature, this is the one that does the lions share of the work, it has 4 times the magnetic field of the one shown which is just there to hold the gear in place and measures 0.25 Ohms although you won't be able to read that low with a normal ohmmeter.
The way your bike seemed to go from operational to non cranking without warning I would also be suspicious of Lead Oxide on one or more of the battery connections, I have seen it disable a bike in as little as a couple of weeks, creeping in between the terminal and the connecting lug providing a perfect insulator between the parts.
I have been guilty of rabbiting on about the benefits of Vaseline on terminal posts, it provides a greasy layer that precludes Oxygen and therefore Oxide.
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2008_Stelvio.gif
BTW the schematic also shows 2 start relays, I believe relay (4) was added by the factory in the vain attempt to improve the chances of it starting
Relay (3) is under the control of the ECU, Relay (4) stays on as long as you hold the button.
I think there may have been a directive to remove no (4)
There's a lot going on in that simple looking start circuit than meets the eye, when you take your finger off the button things get really interesting.
I will be very interesting to see what you find.
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Thanks for the wiring diagram KiwiRoy as I couldn't find it in TOT. I think I'll perform the startus interruptus on my 09 as a pre-emptive measure. :bike-037:
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Sounds like startus interruptus to me.
Read one of the dozens of threads.
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Sounds like startus interruptus to me.
Read one of the dozens of threads.
Between here and guzzitech, there ARE dozens of threads on the subject, and I've either contributed to or read most of them.
My tendency is to go ahead and get all the connections clean and right, and see if it works again. It has never been hesitant in any way to start in the past .... matter of fact, when I push the starter button, the little relay clicks "in", then clicks back "out" about 4 seconds later, corresponding to the amount of time that the starter will operate with or without one's finger on the button, so that part seems to be working.
I would have already been on it, but I'm trying to get my old bush hog set up on my new tractor, and there was a 5/8" x 4" bolt that needed to come out to adjust the lift of the back of it, and it was frozen solid after 20 years, and I've been after it with breaker bars and PB Blaster and a pair of heavy hammers and a MAPP gas torch,
..... and finally got it, but the threads are buggered and I need to run into town to get another, and while I'm going, I'm going to dump the trash, get 25 gallons of non-ethanol to refill my stabilized gas drum, and pick up a new bed for the dog (he already has one in the kitchen and one in our bedroom but this one is for outside).
So, this afternoon sometime then. But at 6:00 the local historical society is bringing in a speaker to talk about the old South Side Railroad, so I'll run in to listen to that, as I like old railroad tales.
This retired life is wearing me out ....
Lannis
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I'm betting the trigger wire to the starter solenoid has a corroded connection. I've seen it a couple of times. Pull the female connector off the solenoid, look at it, put it back on.. and it starts. If so, squirt a little deoxit on there and wiggle it around.
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As Pete Roper pointed out, the stock ground location is held in place by a crappy little widget with 4mm threads. While you are messing around with the electrical stuff I'd recommend moving the ground to a better bolt...like one of the bolts holding the transmission to the block. You'll need a different terminal. Heck, this is also a good time to just replace the entire ground wire with something larger. Motolectric.com has what you need. https://motolectric.com/products/hicap.detail.html
Peter Y.
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I would have already been on it, but I'm trying to get my old bush hog set up on my new tractor, and there was a 5/8" x 4" bolt that needed to come out to adjust the lift of the back of it, and it was frozen solid after 20 years, and I've been after it with breaker bars and PB Blaster and a pair of heavy hammers and a MAPP gas torch,
As always, this sort of thing doesn't end like you think .... in order to get the old bush hog to line up and attach properly to the new tractor, I had to "handwork" a lift shackle on the bush hog with a file and angle grinder, but finally got it right, everything lined up and level and raising up far enough not to drag the wheel when lifted, and will go down far enough to cut the way I want. So that took the rest of the day, then the history lecture on our local railroad (very interesting, learned a lot that I didn't know).
Now stuck back into the Stelvio. I've got Chuck's WG description of his "annual" on the Monza on speed-dial, so I'm always referring back to that when working on a bike to inspire myself about patience, completing the work, and attention to detail. I also have posted on the wall Wayne's proscription and condemnation of "dielectric grease", so none of that ever comes into the shop, as well as Kiwi Roy's mention of the efficacy of Vaseline to protect connections. (Wayne and Roy have both had their hands on my bikes, or me watching them work on theirs to excellent effect so I know to listen).
So for female blade connectors, I have a small "points file" that will fit up in the like a blade and get everything clean and shiny. For male connectors, I have a brass wire brush that also makes things clean and shiny.
Chuck recommends "Deoxit" cleaning spray for the contact surfaces. Is this the same stuff as CRC "QD" Electronics Cleaner? It sounds like it on the can, which I have several of. So is the sequence (A) Mechanical cleaning and shining of the contact surfaces followed by (B) A shot of cleaner, which smells like degreaser and anti-oxidant followed by (C) Assembly and a light coat of Vaseline on the outside?
Just trying to combine "The Best Of" into an album of favorites, without making a "Hubert Few"- type mistake and packing all my connectors full of a material fatal to proper function ....
Lannis
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Well, I took apart and cleaned the battery terminals, the frame ground lug, the positive cable to the solenoid, and the "trigger" wire for the solenoid, and no change at all. As I took the connectors apart, I noted that they were already pretty clean, but they're really bright and tight now.
So out with the voltmeter. When I turn on the key and press the starter button, I can hear the little faint "click" of a cube relay, which holds for three or four seconds before clicking "off" ... but there is ZERO voltage at the trigger wire for the solenoid - the needle doesn't even twitch.
So something is broken, or something is signalling the relay to NOT energize that wire. The neutral light is "on", I've cycled it in and out of gear, and on this bike, you don't need to have the sidestand up or the clutch pulled in to start it.
What's the next evolution?
Lannis
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Can you swap the start relay with another one? Could be a bad relay?
Tom
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Can you swap the start relay with another one? Could be a bad relay?
Tom
Sure sounds like it could be; that would explain the symptoms, although there might be other explanations. Physically, which one is the "start" relay? And does the dude who used to sell Guzzi relays (I got a set for my SP) still sell them?
UPDATE - "Pyro Dan" at DPGUZZI, that's the guy ...
If one's gone, they're probably all going, so I'll probably just swap them all out.
Lannis
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Maybe this page will help. just find the one for your bike:
http://thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_misc_owner-s_manuals___rider-s_handbooks___use_and_maintenance_manuals.html
Or here:
http://thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_misc_wiring_diagrams.html
Tom
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If the wiring diagram is of any use to you. I would swap #3 with #6. Relay #4 "might" be a special one??? Maybe someone here knows that for sure?
Tom
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If the wiring diagram is of any use to you. I would swap #3 with #6. Relay #4 "might" be a special one??? Maybe someone here knows that for sure?
Tom
I just read this thread:
https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=87893.0
However, I don't think it will do me any good to use the solenoid trigger feed to power a relay, because there's no voltage on that trigger when I hit the starter ....
Lannis
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So out with the voltmeter. When I turn on the key and press the starter button, I can hear the little faint "click" of a cube relay, which holds for three or four seconds before clicking "off" ... but there is ZERO voltage at the trigger wire for the solenoid - the needle doesn't even twitch.
Likely NOT startus interruptus then. Startus interruptus puts power to the starter, just not enough to pull the solenoid.
I assume you have looked at all of the fuses. Tried the kill switch and such. Maybe the relay itself is failing.
What year is this again?
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Likely NOT startus interruptus then. Startus interruptus puts power to the starter, just not enough to pull the solenoid.
I assume you have looked at all of the fuses. Tried the kill switch and such. Maybe the relay itself is failing.
What year is this again?
It's a 2009. I have not looked at all the fuses. The kill switch is on the same rocker with the starter, so it can't be on if you're trying to start the bike.
A bad starter relay would, I think, explain what is happening, but it may be one of many possibilities. What does the "starter maintenance" relay do? Is it the thing that keeps power to the starter once you've touched the starter button and let go? SOMETHING is giving a quiet "tick" when I hit the starter, and then "ticking" again in 3 or 4 seconds after I let go of the switch.
Lannis
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click sounds like a relay.....didn't read the thread...so I am guessing you've BTDT?
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If you have power coming out of the starter switch on the handlebar, then you hear a click, I would think you are good up to one of the relays.
3 and 4 must have something to do with the bike starting. Can you tell which one is clicking? I would guess that it's getting power in to try to trigger the load side, but it's not.
After looking at both drawings, relay #4 powers relay #3 "I Think". In one drawing, #4 looks like a special relay, while in the other it looks like all the other relays.
I will guess, that the click you hear is from #4. It may not be letting power out??? Check the load side with a meter and see. I would swap #3 with #6 and see what happens if you have not done so already. I would also look at #4 and see if there is a part number on it and match it up with #6. If they are the same, you can also try #6 in #4.
I'm not an electromagician, I hope Kiwi wanders in here soon.
EDIT: If you look at this drawing, #4 & 5 look like special relays to me??
Hope this helps a bit.
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I will guess, that the click you hear is from #4. It may not be letting power out??? Check the load side with a meter and see. I would swap #3 with #5 and see what happens if you have not done so already. I would also look at #4 and see if there is a part number on it and match it up with #5. If they are the same, you can also try #5 in #4.
I'm not an electromagician, I hope Kiwi wanders in here soon.
Hope this helps a bit.
It IS helping. The wiring diagrams help too, except I don't have a drawing that shows where they actually are on the bike? Are they the ones up under the right side of the front fairing?
Lannis
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Lannis, please reread what I wrote. I originally said relay #5 when I wanted to say was #6
Sorry for the confusion
Tom
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If you don't know which relay is the start relay.. I'd look at the color of the trigger wire on the solenoid and find it on the relay base. Shirley :smiley: they don't change colors in the middle of the stream. My guess is it's a dead relay if you don't have power on the solenoid trigger. They are cheap. (Guzzi content) Replace all of them.
Don't make me get out a schematic.. :thewife:
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Lannis
I don’t have your vintage, mine is a ‘12 but relays are on right side and look like this on later models...
(https://i.ibb.co/Xks3QRz/mg-relays-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Xks3QRz)
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If you are going to replace them - they are not all identical....
Mark
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If you are going to replace them - they are not all identical....
Mark
Oops, I just read the fine print on the DPGUZZI site and the FAQs say that his relays only fit Tonti and older bikes, not the CARC bikes ....?
I guess I need to start pulling them out and finding an equivalent somewhere. (Guzzi Content) I don't want to pay $30+ for each relay ...
Lannis
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The relays you're looking for are definitely behind the right side tank panel. REAL PIA to get to the front screws the first time. Maybe schedule a beer break after you get all the screws removed. Good luck. :bike-037:
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Well, I took apart and cleaned the battery terminals, the frame ground lug, the positive cable to the solenoid, and the "trigger" wire for the solenoid, and no change at all. As I took the connectors apart, I noted that they were already pretty clean, but they're really bright and tight now.
So out with the voltmeter. When I turn on the key and press the starter button, I can hear the little faint "click" of a cube relay, which holds for three or four seconds before clicking "off" ... but there is ZERO voltage at the trigger wire for the solenoid - the needle doesn't even twitch.
So something is broken, or something is signalling the relay to NOT energize that wire. The neutral light is "on", I've cycled it in and out of gear, and on this bike, you don't need to have the sidestand up or the clutch pulled in to start it.
What's the next evolution?
Lannis
On the other side of the start relay/s is the yellow wire fed from fuse 2
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2008_Stelvio.gif
I mentioned that the yellow wire also feeds the number plate light, is it on and stays on when you press Start?
I believe the relay you hear click On and then off a few seconds later is (3)
Relay (4) is held on by the start button but I don't think it will pick up if (3) doesn't close first.
Look at the number plate light, I believe it will tell you if there's 12 Volts available for the start.
Any chance you dropped the bike, I'm thinking of the tip-over relay, it gave me trouble on my Griso.
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I went through this with my 08 Norge. Checked and cleaned all wires, already had the MPH update harness and replaced the starter. I was already using a replacement Interstate battery so kind of overlooked it. Had interstate test it and they said it was on the low side of ok but should be good. After replacing the starter and realizing that when I connected a jump pack it fired right off, I talked interstate into giving me another battery. The bike now fires every time I ask it to. Long story short try a fresh battery.
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You may not have to replace the relay. Sometimes, it's nothing more than corrosion on the relay base. Pull the relay, squirt a little deoxit, reinstall, wiggle it about.. and Bob's your mother's brother.
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Any chance you dropped the bike, I'm thinking of the tip-over relay, it gave me trouble on my Griso.
Yeah, but it was a long time ago in Nova Scotia. :smiley:
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Yeah, but it was a long time ago in Nova Scotia. :smiley:
No one's going to accuse you of losing your memory!! :wink:
It's been over twice - once "a long time ago in Nova Scotia" as you say (2012) on a gravel road transition to pavement, and once about 3 years ago at a local intersection (foot sliding on gravel). But it's recovered from both of those.
I've tested the battery and it's as hot as a new one ... that's the advantage of having a battery tester. No way can a bad battery sneak around a battery load tester like it can sneak around a voltmeter. You can load it until it screams, and you know it's right.
OOH OOH I have a new piece of information (Kiwi Roy) - not only does the starter not energize, but the glove box door doesn't work either. With ignition on and bike in neutral (running or not), the glove box should work but it doesn't. So now I'm looking for a circuit that is common to the starter solenoid feed and the glove box door, possibly a fuse. Back to the wiring diagram.
And on that "how much technology is too much" thread? If I didn't have this forum, my newest motorcycle would be the '75 Norton or a '68 V700. Guaranteed. Ok, maybe a SP1000.
This morning I'm off to the woods with a chain saw to finish clearing a walking trail. Supposed to rain this afternoon, so back out in the shop then ....
Lannis
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So now I'm looking for a circuit that is common to the starter solenoid feed and the glove box door, possibly a fuse. Back to the wiring diagram.
Aux fuses #24
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The schematic I have.....
The glove box relay coil is grounded by the neutral switch, which you say the light is working on. So that SHOULD be fine.
Power to the glove box, also powers the license plate light and other things. Is the license plate light on?
The line also send power to the relay contact for the starter.
That power goes:
Battery -> 30amp fuse -> ignition switch -> 15 amp fuse -> starter relay/glovebox/etc.
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Chances are the 15 Amp fuse has popped, really its a bit light for the current it can see 30-40 Amps for the starter solenoid alone even without the other loads, I would use a 20
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This morning I'm off to the woods with a chain saw to finish clearing a walking trail. Supposed to rain this afternoon, so back out in the shop then ....
Lannis
Robert Frost said "Something there is That doesn't love a wall". Well, "Something there is That doesn't love a trail" too, and it's like the Old Forest on the borders of Buckland. It's like there's a malevolent spirit that drops trees across the trail - there must have been 50 pines that have uprooted or snapped and fallen across a mile-long trail. No willow trees there, so Old Man Hickory is doing it despite my having a saw to combat him. I'm winning at the moment, though - clear all the way through.
And came home to SUCCESS in the shop too. Pulled the 15 amp fuse on the front near side of the fuse box, and there was a lovely gap in it. (Aren't those fuses a pain to get to? Mine was the smallest hand that would get in there - anyone with a big hand would have to get a petite helper or pull the fairing).
Had to run into town because I had never pulled a fuse on the Stelvio and didn't realize they were mini-blade fuses - I have the world's supply of standard blade fuses, so off to Advance Auto for an assortment.
Came home, replaced the blown 15A with a 20A (I'm coming to get Kiwi Roy if my wiring melts, although I've seen him elbow deep in his EV's wiring and he knows what he's about), and replaced the other fuses just for drill, turned on the ignition, checked to see if the glove box opened ... it DID ... punched the starter and .... NOTHING. Nothing but much cursing and gnashing of teeth until I realized that I hadn't connected the solenoid trigger back up, getting in a hurry and all, connected it back and it starts like a good 'un.
I did discover, after the fact, that this exact same problem was discussed on guzzitech back in 2012 and diagnosed by Mr. Orwig - in that case it was a dodgy fusebox socket instead of a blown fuse, but the same fuse. Everything old is new again ... BUT if my starter quits in future, I'll check to see if the glove box works and if it doesn't, I'll know where I'm at, and with an assortment of spare fuses in the tool kit, although I expect no further problems ...
Thanks all - the moral support is as important as the technical support when facing these High Technology Problems. :thumb:
Lannis
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All interesting stuff but I'm curious how a glove box works in the first place and how it stops working due to a fuse? :undecided:
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Congratulations Lannis. :bike-037:
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Yeah!!! :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:
Tom
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Well that was easy - glad you got it sorted.
Mark
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Came home, replaced the blown 15A with a 20A (I'm coming to get Kiwi Roy if my wiring melts, although I've seen him elbow deep in his EV's wiring and he knows what he's about), and replaced the other fuses just for drill, turned on the ignition, checked to see if the glove box opened ... it DID ... punched the starter and .... NOTHING. Nothing but much cursing and gnashing of teeth until I realized that I hadn't connected the solenoid trigger back up, getting in a hurry and all, connected it back and it starts like a good 'un.
Yea , Kiwi is right on that fuse. The wiring will handle 20 amps and sill pop the fuse if there is an issue.
Since it popped the 15, you may have a sticking solenoid, or startus interuptus, creeping in, that prevents the solenoid from moving fast enough. That longer duration load pops the fuse.
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Yea , Kiwi is right on that fuse. The wiring will handle 20 amps and sill pop the fuse if there is an issue.
Since it popped the 15, you may have a sticking solenoid, or startus interuptus, creeping in, that prevents the solenoid from moving fast enough. That longer duration load pops the fuse.
Yep again. I just went through this with the Mighty Scura. Did the Startus Interuptus fix, then the starter solenoid wouldn't engage when the engine was hot and still blew the fuse. Put in a 60some dollar starter from Amazon, and no more issues.
All interesting stuff but I'm curious how a glove box works in the first place and how it stops working due to a fuse? :undecided:
The schematic shows a solenoid on the glove box.
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I don't believe the factory knows how much current the solenoid draws
For one thing it only draws 35-40 Amps for about 20 milliseconds normally, that's too fast for a normal meter to register.
For another reason, they don't show the second high current winding on any schematic, they only show the wimpy coil that draws 10 Amps, a 15 would be appropriate for 10 Amps of load.
As a test I deliberately arranged the wiring so that the second coil stays in circuit for a bit longer the 15 will pop in about 1 second.
All the Guzzi starters Bosch, Valeo and the Chinese ones on V7s have this second high current coil that doesn't show on any Guzzi schematic.
BTW the V7 solenoid pulls 35 Amps
Update:
When I joined the VII Lemans forum, I couldn't understand why so many owners were talking about Startus Interuptus. It just so happened I had bought a 2001 VII Sport, almost the only Guzzi that never suffers from weak starting. all earlier and later models suffer due to a weak starter relay supply. One day I ran my Ohmeter over the solenoid coii and got what I thought was a really low resistance, about 1/2 Ohm which would cause 24 Amps to flow so I investigated further and found one coil measuring 1.2 Ohms (10 Amps) but also a second coil measuring only 0.25 Ohms (48 Amps). Its this second high current coil that does the lions share of pulling the starter into mesh, without a decent current like about 30 Amps the starter will sit there all day or until the 15 Amp fuse pops. Once the starter is engaged this coil is turned off and the solenoid current drops to around 10 Amps what the fuse was sized for.
Almost any Guzzi can fail from Startus Interuptus with the exception of the early spline frames , early 2 Valve Griso and one other that escapes me for the moment.
However the nice part is its so easy to fix the problem with a simple inexpensive wiring change to boost the current through the high current coil. The higher the current the quicker it operates and the less heat is involved.
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I have a box of Cat starter buttons made for current, bubber heavy duty switch made to step on or push.
I'll send you one, mount it on the dash. Run heavy fused wire to it then to solenoid from batt. to hell w/rest of sys, your bike goes all the time. I installed a few over the years on BMW's also.
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I don't believe the factory knows how much current the solenoid draws
For one thing it only draws 35-40 Amps for about 20 milliseconds normally, that's too fast for a normal meter to register.
You MIGHT think that an electrical design engineer responsible for designing and testing solenoids could have invested a few hours pay in a peak-hold meter, or maybe a scope? Oops, I forgot - GUZZI CONTENT! :grin:
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You MIGHT think that an electrical design engineer responsible for designing and testing solenoids could have invested a few hours pay in a peak-hold meter, or maybe a scope? Oops, I forgot - GUZZI CONTENT! :grin:
Or even a proper schematic of the starter.
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Or even a proper schematic of the starter.
I suppose it's part of the "character" of owning a Guzzi, to have a substandard starting circuit that hasn't been fixed in 30 years, and components that aren't up to the job.
Besides carrying spare fuses, at the next impending failure I'll take pyoungblood's suggestion of a heavier ground cable, although the one on it works when everything's clean and optimal, and prepare to make the "startus interruptus" mod.
On my '75 electric start Norton, I've fixed so that it works every time by simply running a clean heavy ground cable directly from the battery to the starter. It's no longer an "electric assist" but a real electric starter; everything else is stock and it works like a champ. Norton probably saved 43p per bike with the OEM cable and for that, they gained an eternal reputation for not knowing what they were doing ...
Lannis
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I have a box of Cat starter buttons made for current, bubber heavy duty switch made to step on or push.
I'll send you one, mount it on the dash. Run heavy fused wire to it then to solenoid from batt. to hell w/rest of sys, your bike goes all the time. I installed a few over the years on BMW's also.
I'm so used to being coddled by the safety stuff that I'd be starting the thing in gear and running myself into a gas pump!
But if I have to do too much fooling around with the current snake's nest of starting circuits, switches, relays, and interconnecting stuff, I might just do that rather than go mad trying to figure out Guzzi's logic ....
Lannis
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Not sure if I’m reading this correctly
Did a ten year old bike blow a fuse and create havoc on the net?
Just appalling, word gets out and Guzzi are finished, did they not even provide a spare fuse ?
In the old days fuses lasted indefinitely but carrying a spare was normal, I have a 42 year old spare, still carry it, just in case.
Glad it’s fixed
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I suppose it's part of the "character" of owning a Guzzi, to have a substandard starting circuit that hasn't been fixed in 30 years, and components that aren't up to the job.
Besides carrying spare fuses, at the next impending failure I'll take pyoungblood's suggestion of a heavier ground cable, although the one on it works when everything's clean and optimal, and prepare to make the "startus interruptus" mod.
On my '75 electric start Norton, I've fixed so that it works every time by simply running a clean heavy ground cable directly from the battery to the starter. It's no longer an "electric assist" but a real electric starter; everything else is stock and it works like a champ. Norton probably saved 43p per bike with the OEM cable and for that, they gained an eternal reputation for not knowing what they were doing ...
Lannis
I don't know anything about a Norton electric start but it seems to be similar to a lot of Japanese with a permanently engaged starter and simple clutch
Unlike the Bosch and Valeo Guzzi starters that have to move a heavy gear into mesh with the ring gear, I think it takes a minimum of about 30 Amps through the solenoid coils to do that.
My favourite is the Bosch it's so simple and industrial, give it enough current it will work forever.
https://www.google.ca/search?q=Norton+electric+start&tbm=isch&source=univ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwii8IOGq4XmAhWXGjQIHe2iCKgQsAR6BAgGEAE&biw=1324&bih=1354#imgrc=AiaM8h7gF22GWM
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Not sure if I’m reading this correctly
Did a ten year old bike blow a fuse and create havoc on the net?
Nope, just a very useful (to me) discussion about how to diagnose and solve an electrical problem. The replacement of a fuse is not an issue - it's figuring out whether the non-starting problem is:
(a) A Guzzi design problem that Guzzi has forced the owners to learn how to fix rather than fixing it themselves (startus interruptus)
(b) A ten year old relay that has gone bad
(c) A corroded high-current connection that needs to be cleaned up
(d) A ten year old blown fuse
Neither you nor I nor any of the experienced Guzzi folks knew, or had any way of knowing, what the problem was until a bit of list-directed diagnostic work was done and fed back, and after a couple hours of poking with a voltmeter and poring over wiring diagrams by helpful and interested folks, it was figured out, and a little packet of spare fuses procured. Not only that, but a useful diagnostic ("if the glove box doesn't work either, it's aux fuse 2 (24)") is now on file for Stelvio eternity.
How this sociable and cooperative process can be construed as "Internet Havoc" rather than one of the core reasons for the existence of a forum like this, I don't know. A long winter ending in the southern hemisphere I suppose.
Glad it’s fixed
That's a good thing!
Lannis
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I don't know anything about a Norton electric start but it seems to be similar to a lot of Japanese with a permanently engaged starter and simple clutch
Unlike the Bosch and Valeo Guzzi starters that have to move a heavy gear into mesh with the ring gear, I think it takes a minimum of about 30 Amps through the solenoid coils to do that.
The Norton starter has a one-way "sprag" clutch to engage the starter with the primary chain. Like the first 1965 Panhead electric start Harley-Davidsons (which I also owned), there are/were a couple marginal things about it, the main one being simply a too-small ground strap for starter current to go through.
The other is that if the bike isn't tuned right (too lean or timing too far advanced), it will "kick back" and wreck the sprag clutch.
Improve the electrical connections and get the bike running right, and the stock setup works just fine. Mine still has the old Zener diode charging system which also is working fine 44 years down the road ..... provides plenty of juice for the battery to start the bike on a regular basis.
Ignore the issues, and it'll either quit early or break the starter, and people will say "See? More cheap Lucas junk".
Lannis
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You MIGHT think that an electrical design engineer responsible for designing and testing solenoids could have invested a few hours pay in a peak-hold meter, or maybe a scope? Oops, I forgot - GUZZI CONTENT! :grin:
The fuse pops, when the starter solenoid sticks. That may be by design, and may actually be a GOOD thing. Even if it is frustrating.
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The fuse pops, when the starter solenoid sticks. That may be by design, and may actually be a GOOD thing. Even if it is frustrating.
Maybe, in the "That's not a bug; that's a FEATURE" and "We'll fix it in the documentation" category! I'll bet they didn't go into it with that in mind, though ....
Lannis
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It's a strange little hexagonal spacer, 13mm AF. It has a 4mm threaded bit on the inner side that the earth straps bolt under to the gearbox and then it's got another 4mm thread on the outer end that the starter motor cover screw goes into. Be careful not to over tighten it or it will strip!
Far as I can tell this is the last post from Pete Roper, who is now a "guest".
Not again? How will I find out about "Thingie" if he's not going to tell me?
Lannis