Stelvio not starting ...

[Lannis]

If someone wrote in and described the problem that my Stelvio is having, and said that THEIR Stelvio was having it, I'd know exactly what to tell them.  (And so would a lot of other people, as evidenced on threads here and other fora).

Now comes the hard part.   Following my own advice to deal with it logically and systematically.   Somehow it's different when it's your own bike.   The bike has always been an easy starter, but when Fay and I hopped onto it Saturday morning and turned on the key, all the lights came on nicely, the instruments did their little dance, fuel pump hummed, pushed the starter ....

.... and got just the faint little relay click.   Not the solenoid thunk, but the faint click from under the plastic.  I checked whether it was in gear, cycled in and out of neutral, turned the key off and on, same thing.   So we hopped OFF the Stelvio, onto the Triumph, and went to the Guzzi lunch improperly dressed for the occasion, being the only non-Guzzi there.

Step 1 - Battery is always the first suspect.   So out with the battery and stick it on the load tester.   It had been a month since the bike had been used but the voltage was over 12v, and remained over 12v when I put a load on it.   But maybe it's marginal.   So I charged it up nice and slow (2 amps for the sealed Yuasa), and tested it again.   12.7 volts, and put the load on it and held 12.4 volts under a 60 amp load until the coils were smoking on the tester.   THIS one is good, so put it back on, screw the battery terminals on nice and tight, and ...

Same thing.   So it's not the battery or the battery connections.

Step 2 - So maybe it's the + battery connection to the solenoid, or the big ground cable, wherever that's grounded to, I've never tracked it down.   That's tomorrow.   I can already tell that some plastic has to come off, so patience and a good attitude will be needed ....

Lannis

[pete roper]

Give the battery terminals and cable ends a really good clean too.

The main earth strap locates to the 'Thingy', top bolt of the starter motor cover screws into the 'Thingy'!

[Lannis]

Give the battery terminals and cable ends a really good clean too.

The main earth strap locates to the 'Thingy', top bolt of the starter motor cover screws into the 'Thingy'!

Yep, in a situation where the system will apparently pass "little" currents but not "big" ones, the battery terminals and all four cable ends and their mating surfaces will be made shiny and bright and be beyond suspicion before any other steps are taken.  It's been 8 years, after all, and I haven't spared it by riding it in the dry only.

I thought I knew what a "Thingy" was, but if my motorcycle has one, then I guess I don't know, really.   But I'll find it.

Lannis

[pete roper]

It's a strange little hexagonal spacer, 13mm AF. It has a 4mm threaded bit on the inner side that the earth straps bolt under to the gearbox and then it's got another 4mm thread on the outer end that the starter motor cover screw goes into. Be careful not to over tighten it or it will strip!

[Sasquatch Jim]

 And then it will be broke and there will be nothing left but to send the wreck to me and I will dispose of it for free.

[Tom H]

Sounds like you have a great plan to attack the problem, cleaning all the major cables.

As I have mentioned before, if that doesn't solve the problem, try running a 12ish gauge wire from the battery to the starter solenoid trigger and see if it spins over.

Good luck,
Tom

[Kiwi_Roy]

Your Stelvio has the same wiring as the Brevas that suffer from Startus Interuptus, 12 Volts fed through the ignition switch then back to fuse 2
and a yellow wire feeding the Start relay. It has a funny feature, the number plate light is also on the yellow wire acting as a little Voltage tell-tail lamp. I suspect if you were to watch the light you would see it turn on with the key then go out when you press start as the voltage drops to zero.
The fix for the Breva was usually to snip the yellow wire just before the relay and provide it with a new feed direct from the battery through a 20 Amp fuse.
The instant the Start Relay closes 45 to 50 Amps rushes into the solenoid coils (both of them) to pull the starting gear into mesh then it drops to just around 10 Amps while the starter is turning over. Actually with this wiring the current will never be over 30 and the solenoid is barely able to do its job.
If you are interested take an Ohm reading of the solenoid spade connector to chassis, you will see that its less than 1.2 Ohm which it would be if there was just one coil as shown on the schematic. There is a second coil that goes from the spade connector to the armature, this is the one that does the lions share of the work, it has 4 times the magnetic field of the one shown which is just there to hold the gear in place and measures 0.25 Ohms although you won't be able to read that low with a normal ohmmeter.

The way your bike seemed to go from operational to non cranking without warning I would also be suspicious of Lead Oxide on one or more of the battery connections, I have seen it disable a bike in as little as a couple of weeks, creeping in between the terminal and the connecting lug providing a perfect insulator between the parts.
I have been guilty of rabbiting on about the benefits of Vaseline on terminal posts, it provides a greasy layer that precludes Oxygen and therefore Oxide.

 
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2008_Stelvio.gif

BTW the schematic also shows 2 start relays, I believe relay (4) was added by the factory in the vain attempt to improve the chances of it starting
Relay (3) is under the control of the ECU, Relay (4) stays on as long as you hold the button.
I think there may have been a directive to remove no (4)

There's a lot going on in that simple looking start circuit than meets the eye, when you take your finger off the button things get really interesting.

I will be very interesting to see what you find.

[severely]

Thanks for the wiring diagram KiwiRoy as I couldn't find it in TOT. I think I'll perform the startus interruptus on my 09 as a pre-emptive measure. 

[Wayne Orwig]

Sounds like startus interruptus to me.

Read one of the dozens of threads.

[Lannis]

Sounds like startus interruptus to me.

Read one of the dozens of threads.

Between here and guzzitech, there ARE dozens of threads on the subject, and I've either contributed to or read most of them.

My tendency is to go ahead and get all the connections clean and right, and see if it works again.   It has never been hesitant in any way to start in the past .... matter of fact, when I push the starter button, the little relay clicks "in", then clicks back "out" about 4 seconds later, corresponding to the amount of time that the starter will operate with or without one's finger on the button, so that part seems to be working.

I would have already been on it, but I'm trying to get my old bush hog set up on my new tractor, and there was a 5/8" x 4" bolt that needed to come out to adjust the lift of the back of it, and it was frozen solid after 20 years, and I've been after it with breaker bars and PB Blaster and a pair of heavy hammers and a MAPP gas torch,

..... and finally got it, but the threads are buggered and I need to run into town to get another, and while I'm going, I'm going to dump the trash, get 25 gallons of non-ethanol to refill my stabilized gas drum, and pick up a new bed for the dog (he already has one in the kitchen and one in our bedroom but this one is for outside).

So, this afternoon sometime then.   But at 6:00 the local historical society is bringing in a speaker to talk about the old South Side Railroad, so I'll run in to listen to that, as I like old railroad tales.

This retired life is wearing me out ....

Lannis

[Chuck in Indiana]

I'm betting the trigger wire to the starter solenoid has a corroded connection. I've seen it a couple of times. Pull the female connector off the solenoid, look at it, put it back on.. and it starts. If so, squirt a little deoxit on there and wiggle it around.

[pyoungbl]

As Pete Roper pointed out, the stock ground location is held in place by a crappy little widget with 4mm threads.  While you are messing around with the electrical stuff I'd recommend moving the ground to a better bolt...like one of the bolts holding the transmission to the block.  You'll need a different terminal.  Heck, this is also a good time to just replace the entire ground wire with something larger.  Motolectric.com has what you need.  https://motolectric.com/products/hicap.detail.html

Peter Y.

[Lannis]

I would have already been on it, but I'm trying to get my old bush hog set up on my new tractor, and there was a 5/8" x 4" bolt that needed to come out to adjust the lift of the back of it, and it was frozen solid after 20 years, and I've been after it with breaker bars and PB Blaster and a pair of heavy hammers and a MAPP gas torch,

As always, this sort of thing doesn't end like you think .... in order to get the old bush hog to line up and attach properly to the new tractor, I had to "handwork" a lift shackle on the bush hog with a file and angle grinder, but finally got it right, everything lined up and level and raising up far enough not to drag the wheel when lifted, and will go down far enough to cut the way I want.   So that took the rest of the day, then the history lecture on our local railroad (very interesting, learned a lot that I didn't know).

Now stuck back into the Stelvio.   I've got Chuck's WG description of his "annual" on the Monza on speed-dial, so I'm always referring back to that when working on a bike to inspire myself about patience, completing the work, and attention to detail.  I also have posted on the wall Wayne's proscription and condemnation of "dielectric grease", so none of that ever comes into the shop, as well as Kiwi Roy's mention of the efficacy of Vaseline to protect connections.  (Wayne and Roy have both had their hands on my bikes, or me watching them work on theirs to excellent effect so I know to listen).

So for female blade connectors, I have a small "points file" that will fit up in the like a blade and get everything clean and shiny.   For male connectors, I have a brass wire brush that also makes things clean and shiny.   

Chuck recommends "Deoxit" cleaning spray for the contact surfaces.    Is this the same stuff as CRC "QD" Electronics Cleaner?   It sounds like it on the can, which I have several of.    So is the sequence (A) Mechanical cleaning and shining of the contact surfaces followed by (B) A shot of cleaner, which smells like degreaser and anti-oxidant followed by (C) Assembly and a light coat of Vaseline on the outside?

Just trying to combine "The Best Of" into an album of favorites, without making a "Hubert Few"- type mistake and packing all my connectors full of a material fatal to proper function ....

Lannis

[Lannis]

Well, I took apart and cleaned the battery terminals, the frame ground lug, the positive cable to the solenoid, and the "trigger" wire for the solenoid, and no change at all.   As I took the connectors apart, I noted that they were already pretty clean, but they're really bright and tight now.

So out with the voltmeter.   When I turn on the key and press the starter button, I can hear the little faint "click" of a cube relay, which holds for three or four seconds before clicking "off" ... but there is ZERO voltage at the trigger wire for the solenoid - the needle doesn't even twitch.   

So something is broken, or something is signalling the relay to NOT energize that wire.   The neutral light is "on", I've cycled it in and out of gear, and on this bike, you don't need to have the sidestand up or the clutch pulled in to start it.

What's the next evolution?

Lannis

[Tom H]

Can you swap the start relay with another one? Could be a bad relay?

Tom

[Lannis]

Can you swap the start relay with another one? Could be a bad relay?

Tom

Sure sounds like it could be; that would explain the symptoms, although there might be other explanations.   Physically, which one is the "start" relay?   And does the dude who used to sell Guzzi relays (I got a set for my SP) still sell them?

UPDATE -  "Pyro Dan" at DPGUZZI, that's the guy ...

If one's gone, they're probably all going, so I'll probably just swap them all out.

Lannis

[Tom H]

Maybe this page will help. just find the one for your bike:
http://thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_misc_owner-s_manuals___rider-s_handbooks___use_and_maintenance_manuals.html

Or here:
http://thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_misc_wiring_diagrams.html

Tom

[Tom H]

If the wiring diagram is of any use to you. I would swap #3 with #6. Relay #4 "might" be a special one??? Maybe someone here knows that for sure?

Tom

[Lannis]

If the wiring diagram is of any use to you. I would swap #3 with #6. Relay #4 "might" be a special one??? Maybe someone here knows that for sure?

Tom

I just read this thread:

https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=87893.0

However, I don't think it will do me any good to use the solenoid trigger feed to power a relay, because there's no voltage on that trigger when I hit the starter ....

Lannis

[Wayne Orwig]

So out with the voltmeter.   When I turn on the key and press the starter button, I can hear the little faint "click" of a cube relay, which holds for three or four seconds before clicking "off" ... but there is ZERO voltage at the trigger wire for the solenoid - the needle doesn't even twitch.   

Likely NOT startus interruptus then. Startus interruptus puts power to the starter, just not enough to pull the solenoid.

I assume you have looked at all of the fuses. Tried the kill switch and such. Maybe the relay itself is failing.
What year is this again?

[Lannis]

Likely NOT startus interruptus then. Startus interruptus puts power to the starter, just not enough to pull the solenoid.

I assume you have looked at all of the fuses. Tried the kill switch and such. Maybe the relay itself is failing.
What year is this again?

It's a 2009.   I have not looked at all the fuses.   The kill switch is on the same rocker with the starter, so it can't be on if you're trying to start the bike.

A bad starter relay would, I think, explain what is happening, but it may be one of many possibilities.   What does the "starter maintenance" relay do?   Is it the thing that keeps power to the starter once you've touched the starter button and let go?    SOMETHING is giving a quiet "tick" when I hit the starter, and then "ticking" again in 3 or 4 seconds after I let go of the switch.

Lannis

[LowRyter]

click sounds like a relay.....didn't read the thread...so I am guessing you've BTDT?

[Tom H]

If you have power coming out of the starter switch on the handlebar, then you hear a click, I would think you are good up to one of the relays.

3 and 4 must have something to do with the bike starting. Can you tell which one is clicking? I would guess that it's getting power in to try to trigger the load side, but it's not.

After looking at both drawings, relay #4 powers relay #3 "I Think". In one drawing, #4 looks like a special relay, while in the other it looks like all the other relays.

I will guess, that the click you hear is from #4. It may not be letting power out??? Check the load side with a meter and see. I would swap #3 with #6 and see what happens if you have not done so already. I would also look at #4 and see if there is a part number on it and match it up with #6. If they are the same, you can also try #6 in #4.

I'm not an electromagician, I hope Kiwi wanders in here soon.

EDIT: If you look at this drawing, #4 & 5 look like special relays to me??

Hope this helps a bit.

[Lannis]

I will guess, that the click you hear is from #4. It may not be letting power out??? Check the load side with a meter and see. I would swap #3 with #5 and see what happens if you have not done so already. I would also look at #4 and see if there is a part number on it and match it up with #5. If they are the same, you can also try #5 in #4.

I'm not an electromagician, I hope Kiwi wanders in here soon.

Hope this helps a bit.

It IS helping.   The wiring diagrams help too, except I don't have a drawing that shows where they actually are on the bike?   Are they the ones up under the right side of the front fairing?

Lannis

[Tom H]

Lannis, please reread what I wrote. I originally said relay #5 when I wanted to say was #6

Sorry for the confusion
Tom

[Chuck in Indiana]

If you don't know which relay is the start relay.. I'd look at the color of the trigger wire on the solenoid and find it on the relay base. Shirley  they don't change colors in the middle of the stream. My guess is it's a dead relay if you don't have power on the solenoid trigger. They are cheap. (Guzzi content) Replace all of them.
Don't make me get out a schematic..

[Markcarovilli]

Lannis

I don’t have your vintage, mine is a ‘12 but relays are on right side and look like this on later models...

[Markcarovilli]

If you are going to replace them - they are not all identical....

Mark

[Lannis]

If you are going to replace them - they are not all identical....

Mark

Oops, I just read the fine print on the DPGUZZI site and the FAQs say that his relays only fit Tonti and older bikes, not the CARC bikes ....?

I guess I need to start pulling them out and finding an equivalent somewhere.  (Guzzi Content) I don't want to pay $30+ for each relay ...

Lannis

[severely]

The relays you're looking for are definitely behind the right side tank panel. REAL PIA to get to the front screws the first time. Maybe schedule a beer break after you get all the screws removed. Good luck.