Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Huzo on November 30, 2019, 02:17:41 AM
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How has the speedometer accuracy been on the V85 for you guys ?
Mine is about 6 kph out at 100 k and divergent from there on.
I know the model I have has different profile tyres than the basic one, can the speedo be recalibrated by the owner ?
There is a procedure to recalibrate to appease the TC, so I’m asking if the speedo can be brought back into line.
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Waaal... at least you've a higher probability of keeping your licence, looking on the bright side. Vic's Wallopers are - as you well know - utterly intolerant of speedsters, & NSW's equivalent little better.
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Like every other Guzzi I've ever had, it indicates 3-4 mph faster than actual speed on GPS. Stock tires.
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How has the speedometer accuracy been on the V85 for you guys ?
Mine is about 6 kph out at 110 k and divergent from there on.
I know the model I have has different profile tyres than the basic one, can the speedo be recalibrated by the owner ?
There is a procedure to recalibrate to appease the TC, so I’m asking if the speedo can be brought back into line.
What model and tire sizes do you have?
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No
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Huzo
My V-7II was the same way with the 130/80-17 tire that came on it. The 130/90-17 that replaced it agrees with my Garmin GPS . Now 60 mph on the Garmin looks like 60.5 on the speedometer. :thumb:
So how TALL of a tire can you put on your new bike ?
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Thanks all.
Where does the speedo get it’s information ?
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Typically, the signal from the front & rear wheel sensors goes to the ABS control unit, when then sends the speed signal to the ECU. The ECU crunches it and sends the data to the instrument cluster.
The V85 has a CAN bus connection direct to instrument panel from the ABS unit, so it's possible the instrument panel does its own crunching.
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ALL modern vehicles read slightly fast. It's the way of the world now, read a couple of Ks slower and you will never be liable for legal action if people clock up fines, or crash doing 3k over the limit when the speedo said bang on the limit because we all know how dangerous those 3kmh are! :copcar:
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Speedo is usually set 5k faster than you are actually going. It stops the manufacturer from getting their ass sued
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How has the speedometer accuracy been on the V85 for you guys ?
Mine is about 6 kph out at 110 k and divergent from there on.
I know the model I have has different profile tyres than the basic one, can the speedo be recalibrated by the owner ?
There is a procedure to recalibrate to appease the TC, so I’m asking if the speedo can be brought back into line.
I think 5 percent accuracy is pretty good when you consider all of the variables in a speedo like that one. I gave up worriying on speedo accuracy a long time ago.
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I have a GPS odometer that I have checked my motorcycle speedometers with and they all have been around 3-4 mph faster than the actual speed. The exception is my 83 honda cb1000c which has a mechanical odometer and it’s mostly spot on. I agree that the discrepancy is intended from the manufacture.
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ALL modern vehicles read slightly fast. It's the way of the world now, read a couple of Ks slower and you will never be liable for legal action if people clock up fines, or crash doing 3k over the limit when the speedo said bang on the limit
I think you meant that the other way ‘round.
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What I’m pondering is..
The sensor that reads wheel rpm gets its data from the tone wheel providing pulse signals up the wire.
The ABS and TC cleverly do their work by comparing differing front/rear wheel rpm.
If I made two more tone wheels with a 6% different number of slots than the standard ones and fitted them front and rear, the ABS and TC would be happy because the wheel rpm’s would be correct compared to each other, but the speedometer would be getting 6% less pulses at a true 100 kph than is currently the case.
Instead of the tone wheel thinking it was at 106 k’s, it’d think 100 k’s.
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I think 5 percent accuracy is pretty good when you consider all of the variables in a speedo like that one. I gave up worriying on speedo accuracy a long time ago.
Not in bloody Australia you wouldn’t..
Speed cameras get you for 3 k over @ $200 a pop.
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My Audace speedometer is fairly accurate. According to my GPS it reads just over a mph high. It is the same across the range. My former Harley read the same across the range also, but ia little over 3 mph high.
kk
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What model and tire sizes do you have?
Rosso Vulcano.
Not sure of the profile but will check.
Trouble is, a lower profile will only make things worse..A given wheel rpm will only propel you slower, so the discrepancy will be greater.
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My Audace speedometer is fairly accurate. According to my GPS it reads just over a mph high. It is the same across the range. My former Harley read the same across the range also, but ia little over 3 mph high.
kk
So is it 3 mph out @ 6 mph ?
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What I’m pondering is..
The sensor that reads wheel rpm gets its data from the tone wheel providing pulse signals up the wire.
The ABS and TC cleverly do their work by comparing differing front/rear wheel rpm.
If I made two more tone wheels with a 6% different number of slots than the standard ones and fitted them front and rear, the ABS and TC would be happy because the wheel rpm’s would be correct compared to each other, but the speedometer would be getting 6% less pulses at a true 100 kph than is currently the case.
Instead of the tone wheel thinking it was at 106 k’s, it’d think 100 k’s.
:popcorn:
Fascinating new world problem, your caring about the abs and tc’s happiness is commendable, if a little misdirected, far better to learn how to not use them imho, abs and tc are also in your fingertips, as true speed is in your gps
Not in bloody Australia you wouldn’t..
Speed cameras get you for 3 k over @ $200 a pop.
And by having speedo read a little high may help avoid this, cameras accuracy has been questioned before
Notably by a policewoman who promised she would never exceed the limit by the 3 whole km/hr she was photographed at.
As an honest person, she was believed and charges dismissed. So the camera must have been faulty.
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:popcorn:
Fascinating new world problem, your caring about the abs and tc’s happiness is commendable, if a little misdirected, far better to learn how to not use them imho, abs and tc are also in your fingertips, as true speed is in your gpsAnd by having speedo read a little high may help avoid this, cameras accuracy has been questioned before
Notably by a policewoman who promised she would never exceed the limit by the 3 whole km/hr she was photographed at.
As an honest person, she was believed and charges dismissed. So the camera must have been faulty.
The only reason I mentioned the happiness of the ABS and TC was to acknowledge the fact that rooting around with tone wheels may bugger up the logic in the electronics, I’d hoped that altering the number of slots by equal amounts would keep the pulses at the same frequency relative to each other, but overall 6% less for a given speed.
It’s not “commendable” that I care about it, that sounds like a word you learned yesterday and have been waiting for a chance to use.
Next..
What makes you think that I have not learned how to ride without them, did you read the thread about ABS and the comments made by me and others as to it’s perceived worthlessness on a bike ? It’s only the last two bikes I’ve owned have ABS and only the most recent with TC.
I’m 61 and started riding at 14 and have never had an injury on a bike that stopped me riding..
Just lucky I guess.
I don’t need a built in error in my speedo to guard me against crashing, if I crash it’s because I decided to ride above my level.
I think you may have been on the piss whilst posting, because although you’ve gone close on occasions, I’ve never seen your logic so blurred or misdirected.
If I want to know what you think on this topic, I’ll tell you.
But thanx for the free advice, at least it wasn’t over priced.
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The only reason I mentioned the happiness of the ABS and TC was to acknowledge the fact that rooting around with tone wheels may bugger up the logic in the electronics, I’d hoped that altering the number of slots by equal amounts would keep the pulses at the same frequency relative to each other, but overall 6% less for a given speed.
It’s not “commendable” that I care about it, that sounds like a word you learned yesterday and have been waiting for a chance to use.
Next..
What makes you think that I have not learned how to use them, did you read the thread about ABS and the comments made by me and others as to it’s perceived worthlessness on a bike ?
I’m 61 and started riding at 14 and have never had an injury on a bike that stopped me riding..
Just lucky I guess.
I don’t need a built in error in my speedo to guard me against crashing, if I crash it’s because I decided to ride above my level.
I think you may have been on the piss whilst posting, because although you’ve gone close on occasions, I’ve never seen your logic so blurred or misdirected.
If I want to know what you think on this topic, I’ll tell you.
But thanx for the free advice, at least it wasn’t over priced.
Whoa Taff
English is my first language, read carefully please, difference between learn how not to use and learn to use was my point.
Of course you can use them. You’re 61, as you say
But point about speedo accuracy was not to stop you crash, doubt you believe that
Point was that cameras may not be that accurate, as policewoman story suggested, perhaps optimism has a logic ?
And you don’t tell for advice, you ask, as you did by posting a question.
Best of luck with the sensor fooling, I wish you well, truly, hope your acronym friends stay happy too.
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Whoa Taff
English is my first language, read carefully please, difference between learn how not to use and learn to use was my point.
Of course you can use them. You’re 61, as you say
But point about speedo accuracy was not to stop you crash, doubt you believe that
Point was that cameras may not be that accurate, as policewoman story suggested, perhaps optimism has a logic ?
And you don’t tell for advice, you ask, as you did by posting a question.
Best of luck with the sensor fooling, I wish you well, truly, hope your acronym friends stay happy too.
Well.
MY point is that I HAVE learned how not to use them by virtue of the fact that all my limbs still function..
Secondly, my statement was “if I want to know what you think, I’ll tell you”..
(a tongue in cheek reference to the fact that I wasn’t seeking yours or anyone else’s advice on the efficacy of these “aids”.)
What I really want to know is..
Will altering the pulses per second from the tone wheels, keep the ABS and TC from activating since the frequency has dropped from (for example), 80 pulses per second to 75 pulses per second.
The ABS and TC would sense no differential in rpm more than was the case, but the speedometer would register an overall reduction, so spit out a figure 6% less.
ie, for a true 100, the sensor would “see” 100 but there would have been no alteration in the wheel’s rpm relative to each other, so no activation of ABS or TC.... :popcorn:
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I think you meant that the other way ‘round.
Yeah! I did! :thumb:
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Here’s another thing..
While y’all were waiting, I broke out my trusty abacus.
An actual speed of 100 kph = 13.6 revs/sec of the rear wheel.
The tone wheel has 48 slots.
So.
13.6x48=656 pulses/sec
At 100 kph I am getting an indication of 107 kph.
At that actual speed of 100 kph, I will be getting 703 pulses/sec and I have to make that look like 100 kph to the sensor, which equals 656 pulses/sec.
Therefore I need to reduce the slots to 48x656/703=45 slots.
That folks is a 6% difference which SHOULD bring 107 back to 101...
As long as I do it for BOTH wheels, why should the ABS or TC wet their collective pants..? :popcorn:
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Huzo
I think that this issue of fidling with the speedo is all a result of the shite weather we are having in Victoria which has has resulted in you spending too much time in the shed calculating pulses rather than out of the bike covering kms!!!!
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Huzo
I think that this issue of fidling with the speedo is all a result of the shite weather we are having in Victoria which has has resulted in you spending too much time in the shed calculating pulses rather than out of the bike covering kms!!!!
Well Mick of all the things I could be accused of, I didn’t think that would have been one of them.
I would get out more, but I’m scared of losing my keys..!
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Well Mick of all the things I could be accused of, I didn’t think that would have been one of them.
I would get out more, but I’m scared of losing my keys..!
Here:
https://www.amazon.com/Retractable-Will-Well-Keychain-Reinforced/dp/B07GWQF47D/ref=mp_s_a_1_15?keywords=clip+on+keychain&qid=1575306170&sr=8-15
Now go on then.
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Just an addition for the ones following this thread...(both of you)
My reading so far leads me to believe that the tone wheel/sensor relationship, generates a square on/off wave due to Hall effect.
A sensor in close proximity to a permanent magnet, that generates an on/off signal as the bars in the tone wheel pass by the sensor.
Am I heading for certain disaster if I make two new tone wheels with 6% less bars, so for any given wheel rpm (road speed), I will have 6% less pulses so consequently a 6% reduction in displayed speed ?
Please don’t give some lame arsed response like...”I wouldn’t bother..”
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Is the computer for the abs calibrated to the 48 slots or does it just see pulses and figure the differential between front and rear? :popcorn:
Paul B :boozing:
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Is the computer for the abs calibrated to the 48 slots or does it just see pulses and figure the differential between front and rear? :popcorn:
Paul B :boozing:
To be honest Paul, I don’t know.
My Neanderthal thinking suggests that the 48 slots could be somewhat arbitrary, given that the information to the brains is a constant stream of pulses, no more no less, and the velocity down the road is merely a function of rpm x circumference of the rear wheel.
The tone wheel is just a tachometer if you will.
I could understand (but haven’t yet checked) if the front one has a different number of slots to give the same pulse rate for a different circumference, but would not be surprised if that’s all done in the calibration.
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Personally, I consider Mark's one word answer to be the end for now. No doubt that if in the future he can tweak that value in a table someplace, he will likely bring it to our attention.
Just sayin
ZZ
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Well mate, being of the same opinion as Mark will always be the safest bet.
If I had put money on the outcome I’d have a quiet $100 bucks on him also, but I’m not going to sit around and wait for the all clear to do my own thinking however infantile it might be in comparison.
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:boozing:
ZZ
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Huzo, I do know on some of the commercial abs systems, you have to recalibrate the computer if wheel diameters are changed or fall out of the parameters being used.(smaller tire circumference front to back or side to side due to wear) But these are all resettable in the programs and may be yours is adaptable too. I don't know how you would go about getting the reader and info needed for yours and if it's not proprietary. Who makes the system? :popcorn:
Paul B :boozing:
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Huzo, I do know on some of the commercial abs systems, you have to recalibrate the computer if wheel diameters are changed or fall out of the parameters being used.(smaller tire circumference front to back or side to side due to wear) But these are all resettable in the programs and may be yours is adaptable too. I don't know how you would go about getting the reader and info needed for yours and if it's not proprietary. Who makes the system? :popcorn:
Paul B :boozing:
The re calibration is a straightforward procedure to satisfy the requirements of the ABS and TC.
As Beetle (no doubt correctly) points out, the info is shoved up the wire and crunched in the brain.
What my intention is, is to send a modified signal up the wire to tell the brain that the wheel is turning 6% slower.
Where I’m really hazy is, will modifying the signal equally front and rear keep the ABS and TC relatively happy.
If the brain gets the idea that both wheels are not turning at the expected rate with respect to each other, it’ll think a loss of traction has occurred and blow the whistle.
I’m relatively confident that a recalibration will satisfy the ABS and TC because this is standard procedure when fitting different size tyres.
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I was talking to a friend. He used something called a speedo healer on his gold wing. I have no idea if this would be compatible or not, but something tangible perhaps worth taking a look at.
https://www.healtech-electronics.com/products/sh/
John Henry
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I was talking to a friend. He used something called a speedo healer on his gold wing. I have no idea if this would be compatible or not, but something tangible perhaps worth taking a look at.
https://www.healtech-electronics.com/products/sh/
John Henry
Bloody hell, that’s a tempting proposition if there are no hidden thorns.
I’d be well pleased if I could succeed in my endeavours, but there’s a fair body of informed opinion that says I can’t.
I’m going to do some homework about this thing.
Thank you ZZ
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Won’t work on your V85. Or anyone’s bike with the 7SM.
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Well Mick of all the things I could be accused of, I didn’t think that would have been one of them.
I would get out more, but I’m scared of losing my keys..!
Mate the weather is crap for the start of summer better off in the shed atm. If you do lose those keys remember to look under the table!!!
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Mate the weather is crap for the start of summer better off in the shed atm. If you do lose those keys remember to look under the table!!!
Will do, and Stoke the fire while there..!
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Well, I’m ready to start.
I know how to make the new tone wheel and cut the 45 slots.
Marks advice has rattled me to be sure, but I cannot see the problem. This will be due to my complete lack of knowlege regarding ECU matters.
Again, I’m staking my arse on the fact that all I’m doing is altering the road speed at which the required pulse frequency occurs.
Instead of getting 700 odd at 100 k’s actual, I’ll be getting it at 107 k actual.
I’m going to pursue the matter and I’ll document my processes, whether it ends in success or the predicted failure, I’ll post the results.
It’ll be a while though.. :clock:
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Again, I’m staking my arse
Sounds quite painful, hope it's worth it 😝
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Sounds quite painful, hope it's worth it 😝
Getting caught is the crime.. :wink:
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Or wait until we figure out where the Speedo correction is in the map? After all, 6% isn’t bad.
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Or wait until we figure out where the Speedo correction is in the map? After all, 6% isn’t bad.
That would be an ideal solution Mark.
I can’t expect you to pull the same rabbit out of your.....hat, as you did with my Norge.
6% as you say is acceptable, if you have to..
I’m not convinced that I have to. If you hadn’t done the wizardry that you did, I and many others would have to put up with Norges that “weren’t bad”.
Yes they bloody well were and thanks to you now they’re fabulous.
My Norge goes further on 23 litres @ 110 kph than my V85, that’s ‘cos you didn’t settle for mediocrity. How may so called tuners in Mandello would have burst into bouts of derisive laughter when they heard of a no name Aussie bumpkin who could wipe the floor with them.
I didn’t have the chops to venture where you do electronically, but I’m having a crack at the hardware...
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Huzo , I like a challenge as much as the next guy , but wouldn't it be easier to just add a GPS speedometer ?
Dusty
Yes mate.
But that’s what people who have no other choice would do.
I’ll do that after I’ve eaten my humble pie and Pete’s leftover crow.
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Huzo
Wouldn't it be easier just to put a 150/80-17 tire on the rear then let your bike relearn the new tire ?
You know , Life is hard enough as it is ... why not make it easy every chance ya get ? :grin:
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My Griso is 7% slow at 100. I haven’t fixed, even though I can with just a couple of clicks. Why? Doesn’t bother me.
Be thankful you don’t own a non-ABS 1200 Sport. The front wheel sensor on those was as much as 12% out.
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My Griso is 7% slow at 100. I haven’t fixed, even though I can with just a couple of clicks. Why? Doesn’t bother me.
Be thankful you don’t own a non-ABS 1200 Sport. The front wheel sensor on those was as much as 12% out.
Yes Mark, it’s at your fingertips.
But if I owned a 1200 Griso, it wouldn’t worry me that it wasn’t a 1400.
I would sooner try what I propose and fail, than walk away.
I have no qualms doing the complex machining to produce what I think I need, there are people I know that are way above me intellectually that baulk at that prospect.
I see the intracicies of such a process as fundamentally self explanatory.
Horses for courses, is I believe the relevant expression.
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Huzo
Wouldn't it be easier just to put a 150/80-17 tire on the rear then let your bike relearn the new tire ?
You know , Life is hard enough as it is ... why not make it easy every chance ya get ? :grin:
Who was that great orator who said...
“We choose to do these and the other things...
Not because they are easy...but because they are hard....” :grin: :grin: :popcorn:
(Before you flame me..it’s a tongue in cheek reference...)
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My Griso is 7% slow at 100. I haven’t fixed, even though I can with just a couple of clicks. Why? Doesn’t bother me.
Be thankful you don’t own a non-ABS 1200 Sport. The front wheel sensor on those was as much as 12% out.
Mark, it would have been the tone wheel, not the sensor......Yes ?
The sensor only knows what the tone wheel tells it....(I hope)
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Mark, it would have been the tone wheel, not the sensor......Yes ?
The sensor only knows what the tone wheel tells it....(I hope)
No tone wheels on non-ABS bikes. The sensors count the screws on brake disks. I don't think it was the sensor itself, simply the implementation in the software. The rear wheel sensors on the Griso and small tank Stelvio (ABS optional) were more accurate.
It never worried me that my Griso wasn't a 1400. I was happy to be a guinea pig. Having said that, I couldn't go back to a 1200. The grunt is intoxicating.
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No tone wheels on non-ABS bikes. The sensors count the screws on brake disks. I don't think it was the sensor itself, simply the implementation in the software. The rear wheel sensors on the Griso and small tank Stelvio (ABS optional) were more accurate.
It never worried me that my Griso wasn't a 1400. I was happy to be a guinea pig. Having said that, I couldn't go back to a 1200. The grunt is intoxicating.
Mark, I’ve never had occasion to doubt your word on anything and this is no exception.
Everyone who cares including you, have tried to point out where I might be wasting my time but I’m determined to go as far as I can without buggering something up terminally.
If I do it won’t be because no one tried to help.
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It was John Kennedy talking about a Moon Shot ,
Good luck with it , and let us know how it turns out ! :grin:
Heck ! It shouldn't be that hard to make if ya got the right tools . :huh:
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Go for it Huzo! as my wifes brothers sister in-laws dad once said " if you don't try how will ya know?'' Hey they all laughed at Einstein too :evil:
Paul B :boozing: :popcorn:
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It was John Kennedy talking about a Moon Shot ,
Good luck with it , and let us know how it turns out ! :grin:
Heck ! It shouldn't be that hard to make if ya got the right tools . :huh:
Yes mate, I know..(That was the tongue in cheek reference to which I eluded you see..)
Thank you and I will either way..(Derisive laughter and finger pointing will abound..)
No it shouldn’t and yes I have..(There will be many photo’s and a Days of Our Lives :clock: type story..)
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Go on and do it. Let us know the results.
I don't personally think you'll get the results you expect, but I'm curious to see what they are.
You have nothing to lose but a little time fabbing up some tone rings.
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I don't personally think you'll get the results you expect
Can you tell me definitively why you think that Rocker ?
What do YOU think will be the fly in the ointment that seals my fate... ?:popcorn:
Just for the sheer fun of it..
Tell me what YOU think would have been the effect on the needle deflection for a given speed, if the bike had come with 45 slots as standard instead of 48 ?
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Let us know the results.
Oh I most certainly will..
Of that there can be no doubt..I’ve started.
Just for the record and to make it easier to find you later, is there anyone out there that categorically agrees with me...?
You know.. 100% type of thing with no reservations.
Personally I hope not, better to be alone where a I’m going.. :wink:
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Oh I most certainly will..
Of that there can be no doubt..I’ve started.
:thumb:
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:thumb:
I think your mate Theodore Roosevelt put it best..
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Not in bloody Australia you wouldn’t..
Speed cameras get you for 3 k over @ $200 a pop.
Then ride 5 kph under the posted limit. Problem solved.
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Then ride 5 kph under the posted limit. Problem solved.
I remember you Elvisboy..!
You’re the bloke who used to “worry” about the accuracy of your speedo, but now you don’t.
I’m not “worried” about mine, I just want the bastard to be within what I think is ok. If you’ve taught yourself to accept mediocrity, then I should learn from your preachings, I’m starting to see your point actually..
“If something doesn’t come up to your expectation..?
SIMPLES..!
Just lower your expectation....”
I don’t understand some of you guys..(or maybe I do..)
If the tank on your bike was mounted crookedly, you’d want it fixed
If it pops and farts on overrun too much for you, you’d want it fixed
If she’s not up to scratch for your bucket list trip, you’d want it fixed
And so on..
I’ve seen interminable examples of blokes here who buggerise around shaving microns off their windscreens or adding contraptions to minimise wind buffeting, then in a burst of enlightenment throw some gargantuan piece of crap on the front and swagger around waving their Bibles above their head as if they’ve delivered us all to the Promised Land...!
Jesus H spare me..!
But it’s just one example of what someone tries to do to improve their lot, I’m just amused to death to witness the jostling of the angry mob...Why is it a worthwhile pursuit to skim nano metres of a Perspex shield or mount a see thru’ drive in screen to your bike so as you can have it the way you want, but I want my speedo to work and I’m told it either can’t be done, (which is more than likely correct), or it’s an unworthwhile pursuit.
Really y’all can’t lose.
Either I crash and burn like a bitch and there’ll be a tsunami of mirth and levity throughout the land at the demise of the smart ass, or I soar to success and you’ll see me happier than I’ve been for ages...!
There’s a hint of passive aggressiveness that’s wafting across the Pacific from some of you guys..
Were I you, I’d feign support for me just for the unbridled pleasure of watching the collapse of my attempts.
Now I know how Noah felt.... :rolleyes:..(Just joking with y’all..)
Jeez I love this stuff... :thumb: :clock:
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Huzo,
Obviously the bike meets the requirement of the Australian Design Rule the allows a tolerance for over reading but absolutely no tolerance for under reading. The test will be altering not too much so that it under reads.
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Huzo,
Obviously the bike meets the requirement of the Australian Design Rule the allows a tolerance for over reading but absolutely no tolerance for under reading. The test will be altering not too much so that it under reads.
That won’t be a drama Mick.
The speedometer is 7% out across the range. A reduction of 48 slots to 45 is 3 slots or 1/16 th.
1/16 th is 6.2% so there’ll be worries there. The result will be a change of an indicated 107 @ 110 k’s to an indicated 101 @ 100k’s.
Anyway, work has begun.
The next post should be a photo taken at 100 kph on the GPS with 101 showing on the digital speedometer
That’s the plan. I’ll document the process with photo’s and text but will wait ‘till the results are known one way or the other.
There’s no one out there that thinks it’ll work, so there’ll be a surprise either way...
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Absolutely admirable :weiner: :bow: :food: :gotpics: :popcorn: :copcar:
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Go on and do it. Let us know the results.
I don't personally think you'll get the results you expect
Again..
Why is that Rocker...? :wink: :popcorn:
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Slots 8 degrees apart, right?
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Again..
Why is that Rocker...? :wink: :popcorn:
I believe the sensor counts slots over a given amount of time, but has no idea how many there are on the wheel.
The computer may count 48 pings as one revolution. With the 45 slot tone ring, your wheel will make slightly more than one revolution while the computer counts waits until 48 pings to register one revolution.
But, I'd love to be wrong. That's why I encouraged you to proceed with the experiment. We'll all learn something.
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Very entertaining thread as always Huzo!
If the tank on your bike was mounted crookedly, you’d want it fixed - not a problem, tank is nice and straight and protected with a tank cover and tank bag
If it pops and farts on overrun too much for you, you’d want it fixed - I like the popping, happens with a stock map or a Beetle Map and a lovely Agostini pipe...it's a feature and keeps the deer away from the road
If she’s not up to scratch for your bucket list trip, you’d want it fixed - runs perfectly...an absolute joy to ride even after 10 years - actually almost to the date since I bought it.
....examples of blokes here who buggerise around shaving microns off their windscreens to minimise wind buffeting - Well in my case, it was an additional 50,800 microns...SWEET quiet air, ZERO buffetting...you should try it next year at Cedar Vale and meet the Sultan while you're at it!
Jeez I love this stuff... :thumb: :clock:
:) Happy Wednesday!
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I believe the sensor counts slots over a given amount of time, but has no idea how many there are on the wheel.
The computer may count 48 pings as one revolution. With the 45 slot tone ring, your wheel will make slightly more than one revolution while the computer counts waits until 48 pings to register one revolution.
But, I'd love to be wrong. That's why I encouraged you to proceed with the experiment. We'll all learn something.
As in aviation to remove ambiguity, it’s prudent to use the terms “true” or “actual” speed and “indicated” speed.
Well if you want to approach from that perspective then yes Rocker, I think you are right.
So @ 100 kph the wheel will only get to 45 slots after one revolution so the brains will “wait” for anther 3 slots to pass before spitting out the 100 kph reading.
I think your thought process is slightly awkward in terms of logic, although I’m not qualified to definitively say so.
To my mind the sensor currently sees 715 or so, pps (pulses per second) @ a true 100 k. That’s all the brains knows, it cannot sense velocity, it can only calculate it as a function metres (or slots) per second.
Give it less slots per second then...
All I’m doing is altering the pps @ a true 100 k’s to what the sensor would currently see @ a true 94 k’s.
If I jump on my ‘85 now, and run up to an TRUE 94 k’s as seen on the GPS, there’ll be 656 pps zooming up the wire and my speedometer will read 100k’s.
So..?
I will make my tone wheel so that the sensor sees the same thing at a true 100 k’s, that it used to see at 94 k’s.
See how awkward and unnessessarily complex that sounds ?
Simple way is..
Alter the slot numbers by 6%, and you’ll alter the reading by 6%. When Beetle said it won’t work because I have a 7SM controller (response #37), I thought I was rooted, but then I thought to keep going because all I’m doing is telling the controller different information.
I thought 7SM was a radio station in South Millimore, Tasmania...!
BTW..
It still worries me that no one thinks my logic is sound.
Looks like if I fail, I’m on my own.. :cry:
But then again, if I don’t.... :clock: :popcorn:... :evil:
Speaking of being on my own..
I’m reminded of my first sexual encounter.
It was a mid Winter’s rainy night...
It was cold, dark and I was all alone.. :thumb:
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I think your thought process is slightly awkward in terms of logic
Yes. For which, I'm known far and wide! :boozing:
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Yes. For which, I'm known far and wide! :boozing:
Hey mate..
At least you’ve bought a gun to the fight..(oh shit, I said the “G” word and to a Mod no less), could we have a section on WG where we can use that word ?
We could call it the G spot...! :popcorn:
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If you have GuzziDiag, you can probably alter the Speedo Correction Factor in the ECU Map.
I’ve done it on my Stelvio several times, once to correct the readout when I fitted the 17 inch Griso Wheel (original is 19”), and a few times to try and get the speedo spot-on, at least equal to GPS speed readings, which it now is.
You’ll also need a program called Tuner Pro (also free) to read and alter the Map.
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If you have GuzziDiag, you can probably alter the Speedo Correction Factor in the ECU Map.
I’ve done it on my Stelvio several times, once to correct the readout when I fitted the 17 inch Griso Wheel (original is 19”), and a few times to try and get the speedo spot-on, at least equal to GPS speed readings, which it now is.
You’ll also need a program called Tuner Pro (also free) to read and alter the Map.
Ok..!
Now you’ve got my attention.
How does one procure this GuzziDiag of which you speak..?
I feel a trip to Paul Brooking’s coming on.
(Actually I’m going to Adelaide today)
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Adjusting the speedo in a 5AM ECU bike (Stelvio, Griso etc) is easy, but I believe Mark is saying that the speedo factor has not been located in the maps for the newer ECU.
But I can't see any reason why your plan shouldn't work Huzo. The ECU doesn't really know how many slots the wheel has, it just counts how many pass by in a given time and does the simple math. Your idea should work.
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Adjusting the speedo in a 5AM ECU bike (Stelvio, Griso etc) is easy, but I believe Mark is saying that the speedo factor has not been located in the maps for the newer ECU.
But I can't see any reason why your plan shouldn't work Huzo. The ECU doesn't really know how many slots the wheel has, it just counts how many pass by in a given time and does the simple math. Your idea should work.
Now that felt like a breath of fresh air..
I know enough to be wary of ignoring Mark’s counsel on such matters.
But your input suggests that Marks words hold true if I attempted to root around with the electronics..
I can’t even spell electronics..!
I will place your name of the people that I must not brag to, in the event of glorious success. Your’s will be easy to find, you’re the first.. :thumb:
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Huzo, I can always count on you to come up with a good topic.
I 100% agree with you that altering the tone wheel by a number of slots will have the corresponding effect on the speedo, I assume its the front that drives the speedo, it will be easy to figure out by rasing both wheels in the air and giving them a spin.
I doubt the speedo even calculates when the wheel has turned a complete revolution, it just calculates the number of slots passing over a period of time
The time period may be a second or it might be a sliding window of several seconds adding counts at the front while tossing them off the back, this makes the count rate smoother.
It kind of reminds me of calibration of a conveyor weigh scale where you calculate force by speed to reach tonnes per hour
I wonder if you have to swap both Tone wheels or if its possible to re-calibrate the system as though you had fitted a different size wheel.
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Huzo, I can always count on you to come up with a good topic.
I 100% agree with you that altering the tone wheel by a number of slots will have the corresponding effect on the speedo, I assume its the front that drives the speedo, it will be easy to figure out by rasing both wheels in the air and giving them a spin.
I doubt the speedo even calculates when the wheel has turned a complete revolution, it just calculates the number of slots passing over a period of time
The time period may be a second or it might be a sliding window of several seconds adding counts at the front while tossing them off the back, this makes the count rate smoother.
It kind of reminds me of calibration of a conveyor weigh scale where you calculate force by speed to reach tonnes per hour
I wonder if you have to swap both Tone wheels or if its possible to re-calibrate the system as though you had fitted a different size wheel.
Thanks KR.
I’ll be making a pair of wheels because I don’t have to pay for my own time and I want to replicate what’s already there, the only difference being the number of slots.
If I make one wheel and it doesn’t work then I’ll not know why and then I’ll have to enter the (for me), dark world of electronic re calibration and such.
This is so beyond me it’s laughable, but I’ll back myself to stand at a lathe and churn out a good product.
I’m just guilty of directing my efforts in a direction where I know I can function.
BTW..
Here’s a shot I took an hour ago with no hands and a lovely cruise control. The error is a touch less than I’ve been spruiking but seconds after the shot was taken, the speedo adjusted to 106.
So the error is 6%.
(https://i.ibb.co/Fs9Lt6Y/C8-E25-A71-5848-40-E2-BB57-D2-A8-E2-BB230-C.png) (https://ibb.co/Fs9Lt6Y)
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For what its worth I can't see why your adjustment wont work, surely the ECU is just monitoring the time between pulses and using its known value for the distance traveled between each pulse?
I have been wrong before
Steve
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Thanks KR.
I’ll be making a pair of wheels because I don’t have to pay for my own time and I want to replicate what’s already there, the only difference being the number of slots.
If I make one wheel and it doesn’t work then I’ll not know why and then I’ll have to enter the (for me), dark world of electronic re calibration and such.
This is so beyond me it’s laughable, but I’ll back myself to stand at a lathe and churn out a good product.
I’m just guilty of directing my efforts in a direction where I know I can function.
BTW..
Here’s a shot I took an hour ago with no hands and a lovely cruise control. The error is a touch less than I’ve been spruiking but seconds after the shot was taken, the speedo adjusted to 106.
So the error is 6%.
(https://i.ibb.co/Fs9Lt6Y/C8-E25-A71-5848-40-E2-BB57-D2-A8-E2-BB230-C.png) (https://ibb.co/Fs9Lt6Y)
When I calbrate, I use trip rather than speed. IE go 20 gps km’s see what speedo trip reads
Mine now (electronically adjusted) within 1% over 300km but of course tyre wear will change that a bit
5% over life of tyre to gps trip would be pretty good,
Perfect impossible because tyre both grows with heat and shrinks with wear
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When I calbrate, I use trip rather than speed. IE go 20 gps km’s see what speedo trip reads
Mine now (electronically adjusted) within 1% over 300km but of course tyre wear will change that a bit
5% over life of tyre to gps trip would be pretty good,
Perfect impossible because tyre both grows with heat and shrinks with wear
Do you think the odometer is out by the same ratio as the speedo?
There is no reason it has to be.
It would be interesting to do a comparison between the odometer and a runners GPS, they are quite accurate, at least they seem to line up with a measured race distance.
Perhaps Huzo's new Tone wheels will kill two birds with one stone.
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Do you think the odometer is out by the same ratio as the speedo?
There is no reason it has to be.
It would be interesting to do a comparison between the odometer and a runners GPS, they are quite accurate, at least they seem to line up with a measured race distance.
Perhaps Huzo's new Tone wheels will kill two birds with one stone.
Acewell digital speedo they are fixed together, tho accurate mpg far more to me than speed
Vaguelia analogue also fixed error, gps never tallied with trip, main reason to dump
programming odo and speedo differently would be a bit weird, why would they ?
Huzo will tell us if v85 has 2 algorythms, if so he’s gonna muckup consumption figures, whodjthunkit?
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Adjusting the speedo in a 5AM ECU bike (Stelvio, Griso etc) is easy, but I believe Mark is saying that the speedo factor has not been located in the maps for the newer ECU . . .
Ah, that's a shame.
I thought I'd seen it mentioned somewhere else, but maybe that was just that GuzziDiag can be used for Mapping on them?
I'm all for making things to fix issues or change things (as one look at my Stelvio will prove), but I think I'd just put up with the slight inaccuracy rather than make new Sensor Rings.
Nice little project though.
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But your input suggests that Marks words hold true if I attempted to root around with the electronics..
Aye. That what I was getting at. I never suspected you would attempt to re-engineer things.
I thought I'd seen it mentioned somewhere else, but maybe that was just that GuzziDiag can be used for Mapping on them?
The V85 uses the 7SM, same as the Cali 1400. So yes, remapping is possible. The only difference is the type of connector required.
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Do you think the odometer is out by the same ratio as the speedo?
There is no reason it has to be.
It would be interesting to do a comparison between the odometer and a runners GPS, they are quite accurate, at least they seem to line up with a measured race distance.
Perhaps Huzo's new Tone wheels will kill two birds with one stone.
Ah, I forgot to mention that. If you adjust the number of pulses for the Speedo by 6%, then the odometer will read 6% less. There's only one source for the signal so you have to choose what's more important to you. Speedo accuracy or odometer accuracy.
From the factory, the odometer is usually quite accurate, but the Speedo intentionally reads too high. Trouble is, they depend on the same input. (Assuming the V85 works the same as the 5AM ECU)
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Ah, that's a shame.
I thought I'd seen it mentioned somewhere else, but maybe that was just that GuzziDiag can be used for Mapping on them?
I'm all for making things to fix issues or change things (as one look at my Stelvio will prove), but I think I'd just put up with the slight inaccuracy rather than make new Sensor Rings.
Nice little project though.
Hmmmm..
I’d say anyone who’d take a perfectly functioning set of cast wheels off a Norge and build a set of wire ones, has a sense of priorities who’s level of warpage knows no bounds...
I mean, why would you..
Because you can...?
(https://i.ibb.co/h1WPXxv/02766-E55-09-F8-42-AE-AF9-F-9760-A0-E9-AD54.png) (https://ibb.co/h1WPXxv)
Damn right...!
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Slots 8 degrees apart, right?
Yeah I suppose so KD, but I didn’t really twig to that fact..
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grows with heat and shrinks with wear
Yeah, I thought the same thing when I stopped for a comfort break today and looked down...!
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Do you think the odometer is out by the same ratio as the speedo?
There is no reason it has to be.
It would be interesting to do a comparison between the odometer and a runners GPS, they are quite accurate, at least they seem to line up with a measured race distance.
Perhaps Huzo's new Tone wheels will kill two birds with one stone.
Hmmm...
I hadn’t stopped to think about that. I’ll pick a destination of about 100 k on the GPS and do the trip after setting the trip meter.
That’ll find out the truth..
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Do you think the odometer is out by the same ratio as the speedo?
Normally, the odometers are correct. It's the speedometers which are programmed to be optimistic.
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Normally, the odometers are correct. It's the speedometers which are programmed to be optimistic.
That might be my downfall though.
If I alter the input to reduce the reading, then the odo reading might also reduce..
Time will tell..
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That might be my downfall though.
If I alter the input to reduce the reading, then the odo reading might also reduce..
Time will tell..
It will. See my earlier post.
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It will. See my earlier post.
Damn that.
I’ve got my fingers into it that far now I don’t want to let it go.
I think I want the speedo accurate more than the odo. It would not be worth the effort to have two bob each way and aim for 3% because I’d end up with nothing that was right and two things that were wrong.
If I have to choose and it seems like I must, then I still prefer the accurate speedo option. I’ll run an odometer test though when I get back home, I’m keen to find out the guts on that.
I’d be keen to hear from anyone else though.
Seems to me that you pick a destination of say 100 k on the GPS and run that distance, then comparing it to the displayed value on the on board trip meter.
What was that about a free lunch ?
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Damn that.
I’ve got my fingers into it that far now I don’t want to let it go.
I think I want the speedo accurate more than the odo. It would not be worth the effort to have two bob each way and aim for 3% because I’d end up with nothing that was right and two things that were wrong.
If I have to choose and it seems like I must, then I still prefer the accurate speedo option. I’ll run an odometer test though when I get back home, I’m keen to find out the guts on that.
I’d be keen to hear from anyone else though.
Seems to me that you pick a destination of say 100 k on the GPS and run that distance, then comparing it to the displayed value on the on board trip meter.
What was that about a free lunch ?
Here in The States, we have "mile markers" on the highways. No need to go far to check an odometer or speedometer.
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I agree that the ECU or BCM is counting the number of pulses for certain amount of time. I would also assume that it is a pretty short amount of time. I am somewhat new to the Guzzi community so if I make an incorrect statement please excuse me. I am assuming your bike has anti-lock brakes, if not ignore what I am saying. But if it does it is going to have to be a short period of time for the anti lock feature to work correctly, i.e. safely. So in the situation I would think you wouldant to keep identical tone rings on both wheels for the ABS to work correctly. Just my thoughts but I may be all wet. Also I didn't go back and re-read everything.
I will also add that an inaccurate speedo drives me nuts also. My Audace is only just over 1 mph at all speeds as I said earlier which is fine by me. I can live with that. The Harley I had before my MG was off by a bit over 3.5 mph. I was always having to mentally calculate the amount to adjust my speed so as not to attract the attention of the popo. I usually run at the upper end of the perceived tolerance before a stop by the law could occur.
I am also interested in your results just for my general education, I have neither the equipment nor the ability to do something like this.
kk
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I would think you wouldant to keep identical tone rings on both wheels for the ABS to work correctly. Just my thoughts but I may be all wet. Also I didn't go back and re-read everything.
ABS measures changes between the two tone rings. Each time you start your bike and roll away, the ABS recalibrates. It doesn't care how many slots are in each tone ring. ABS is only measuring dramatic changes between the two. Same for Traction Control.
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I agree that the ECU or BCM is counting the number of pulses for certain amount of time. I would also assume that it is a pretty short amount of time. I am somewhat new to the Guzzi community so if I make an incorrect statement please excuse me. I am assuming your bike has anti-lock brakes, if not ignore what I am saying. But if it does it is going to have to be a short period of time for the anti lock feature to work correctly, i.e. safely. So in the situation I would think you wouldant to keep identical tone rings on both wheels for the ABS to work correctly. Just my thoughts but I may be all wet. Also I didn't go back and re-read everything.
I will also add that an inaccurate speedo drives me nuts also. My Audace is only just over 1 mph at all speeds as I said earlier which is fine by me. I can live with that. The Harley I had before my MG was off by a bit over 3.5 mph. I was always having to mentally calculate the amount to adjust my speed so as not to attract the attention of the popo. I usually run at the upper end of the perceived tolerance before a stop by the law could occur.
I am also interested in your results just for my general education, I have neither the equipment nor the ability to do something like this.
kk
No need to be apologetic about coming up to speed mate.
I’m finding my way in some respects too. My early calculations show 656 pulses per sec at 94 kph. I will be producing two replica tone rings to eliminate the possibility of a bug in that area.
Keep giving your insights please..
Every bit of input goes into the soup for easy digestion..
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ABS measures changes between the two tone rings. Each time you start your bike and roll away, the ABS recalibrates. It doesn't care how many slots are in each tone ring. ABS is only measuring dramatic changes between the two. Same for Traction Control.
Ahh..!
So does the speedo need info from two rings to do it’s job, or can I rely on one dedicated ring and let the recalibration satisfy the ABS and TC requirements ?
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Here in The States, we have "mile markers" on the highways. No need to go far to check an odometer or speedometer.
Yeah, same thing here in places.
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I think most of the newer bikes have pretty accurate speedometers compared to old ones. They are generally calibrated about 5% registering faster than actual speed. In fact, that is actually printed in the owner's manual for my Ducati. It also has a recalibration feature when changing tires like the V85.
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Personally Peter I probably just use the gps or do the mental calibration and ride at an indicated 105 in a 100 zone.
Having said that, your questions and those of others above reveal one clear thing, no one knows for sure what will happen betwen speedo and odometer readings if you change the tone wheels.
That in itself is a reason to do it.
Knowing SFA about the V85 and not even having seen one apart from photos, is there a way to splice into the speedo signal wires to fit an electronic adjuster like this
https://www.jaycar.com.au/speedo-corrector-module/p/AA0376
Looking forward to seeing your solution and the results.
Cheers
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Personally Peter I probably just use the gps or do the mental calibration and ride at an indicated 105 in a 100 zone.
Having said that, your questions and those of others above reveal one clear thing, no one knows for sure what will happen betwen speedo and odometer readings if you change the tone wheels.
That in itself is a reason to do it.
Knowing SFA about the V85 and not even having seen one apart from photos, is there a way to splice into the speedo signal wires to fit an electronic adjuster like this
https://www.jaycar.com.au/speedo-corrector-module/p/AA0376
Looking forward to seeing your solution and the results.
Cheers
Yes mate there probably is, but I want to fix the problem and not mask it.
I take your point in the spirit it was offered.
If you wanted a red Guzzi but you owned a beige one, would you have it painted or wear a pair of glasses that made it look red ?
Furthermore..
I’ve had a quote to have new ones laser cut to my specs. I need to provide detailed dimensions of the slots, diameters, radii, patterns and such.
I can get two done with change from $500 and for a while I was tempted, then thought bugger it, I want to build them myself...
That was my point with the wheels..
I could have bought Griso ones, but I chose to use Bellagio hubs and.........(you know the rest)
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No (s)tone unturned eh Pete?
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No (s)tone unturned eh Pete?
That’s witty Mick.
Don’t forget that oil change..
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Today I will conduct a test of the odometer.
Some of you will have done so no doubt. I’m hoping that it will have the same inaccuracy as the speedo, or at least in the same direction. If it’s out the other way my plan/s will be shelved.
But for now..
The slots in the tone wheel are tapered and the bars parallel, my new one will have parallel slots since they will be done with an end mill. So the bars will be tapered.
Also I’ll see what the ratio of slots/bar width is, this ratio will be preserved on the new one, they look 50/50 but I’ll measure to be certain. The reading will need to be at slot centre to account for the aforesaid taper.
I’ll refer to one slot/bar combination as an “element” from here on, think of it like a chain. One link/side plate combination is an “element”.
The point at mid slot will describe a circle of calculable circumference, call this “x”..
If “x” was say 288 mm, each element would be 6 mm (for 48 elements).
For the same 288 mm, each element would be 6.4 mm (for 45 elements).
Because a change in the width of a bar will also result in the same change in the slot with (for50/50)... you only need to increase your slot width by 1/2 of this 0.4 mm.. (0.2 for my example).
It’s not much.
That’s the thinking so far.. :popcorn:
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I think with the computer controlled displays when calibrated to tires (and gearing) you'll find the odos are dead straight and speedos are 5% off.
You can check it with GPS on your phone.
BTDT.
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I think with the computer controlled displays when calibrated to tires (and gearing) you'll find the odos are dead straight and speedos are 5% off.
You can check it with GPS on your phone.
BTDT.
Yep.
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Hmmm..
I went for a shorter ride of 30 k. The odometer was very accurate indeed, which is a bit of a bugger.
Tomorrow morning I’ll do the 100 k thing to calculate the percentage error. I reckon it’ll be in the region of 2 or 3%.
If that’s the case, I’ll put the speedo spot on and live with a 3% odo error.
Also I notice that spinning the rear wheel by hand activates the speedo, the front does not. Does this mean I can remake the rear tone wheel and recalibrate the front back into line ?
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The further we get into this the more new questions are raised. Very interesting topic.
kk
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Hi Huzo.
This won't help you fix the problem, but I thought you might be interested in my experience with my previous Honda CTX700 ride. The speedo/odo unit and the ECU worked separately on the same signal that came from a gearbox sensor. The pulses from the sensor were really fast, and it would have been a piece of cake to make the speedo the odo and the ECU all agree and be correct.
The errors were (according to my GPS)
Speedo +9%
Odometer +5.5%
ECU +4%
I added a speedo healer to get the speedo correct, but then all the rest were out proportionally, which stuffed my Fuelly reading. Still it was nice to know how fast I was going.
I understand the "legal" aspects of the speedo reading, but why didn't the ODO and ECU agree and why weren't they correct?
Good luck with your project.
Gonzo
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Thank you all and sundry..
Thanks mate for the commentary on your Honda, it’s all food for thought. I’m going to bounce out of bed now and go for my tour of discovery on the ‘85.
I took my Norge out the other day BTW.
After riding the V85 a lot, the Norge felt like it had legs 10’ long, velvet pistons and silk gearbox.
Rolling the power on, the Norge felt like being punched by a heavyweight boxer through a thick feather pillow, the V85 feels like being punched by a welterweight boxer a bit more often through a slightly thinner feather pillow.
I never thought I would enjoy being “ punched around the ring” so much... :wink: :bike-037:
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I woke my 8v Norge from it's long 8 month sleep after escaping the PNW for AZ and can echo Huzo's comparison. The Norge is smoother, has excellent wind management, is more powerful (of course) and loves to run 65+ compared to my V85. However, the Norge is lacking in leg room for me -- the only real negative.
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Hi Huzo.
This won't help you fix the problem, but I thought you might be interested in my experience with my previous Honda CTX700 ride. The speedo/odo unit and the ECU worked separately on the same signal that came from a gearbox sensor. The pulses from the sensor were really fast, and it would have been a piece of cake to make the speedo the odo and the ECU all agree and be correct.
The errors were (according to my GPS)
Speedo +9%
Odometer +5.5%
ECU +4%
I added a speedo healer to get the speedo correct, but then all the rest were out proportionally, which stuffed my Fuelly reading. Still it was nice to know how fast I was going.
I understand the "legal" aspects of the speedo reading, but why didn't the ODO and ECU agree and why weren't they correct?
Good luck with your project.
Gonzo
That is, to me at least, mindboggingly incredible use of technology/ computers
3 different interpretations of actual distance travelled, apparently intentionally written.
If i were to only have one correct, I’d choose ecu / fuel consumption/ range, I’d often wondered why that figure differs from actual, given the odo triggered by same signal.
Without clever dash, I’d still choose odo over speedo if they had to be different
I tend to use odometer/trip much more than speedo, accurate mpg and range important where I go. For speed, I use appropriate for conditions, eyes trained on road obstacles including hidden traffic officers, speed camera and, of course, farqueets, distractions like speedo staring can kill, just like looking at a phone or infotainment centre.
Waiting for geek fix sounding better by the post, fix all three at once
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Well the test went well, but the results were not what I’d hoped.
The ride was 123 k on the GPS and the odometer recorded 121 k. So an error of 1.6%, the wrong way.
I’m thinking I’ll try for a spot on speedo and accept an inaccurate odo, but it would have been nice if the odo had have been 1 or 2% the other way.
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Well the test went well, but the results were not what I’d hoped.
The ride was 123 k on the GPS and the odometer recorded 121 k. So an error of 1.6%, the wrong way.
I’m thinking I’ll try for a spot on speedo and accept an inaccurate odo, but it would have been nice if the odo had have been 1 or 2% the other way.
Dash consumption accurate ?
Oh what a tangled web you weave, when first you try to deceive
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Dash consumption accurate ?
Oh what a tangled web you weave, when first you try to deceive
Dash consumption ?
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Well folks here’s today’s exciting episode...(brought to you by *******)
The story thus far....
Yesterday I did the odo test as mentioned and was crestfallen to discover that as warned, the odometer was damn near spot on bugger it. I ummed and arred whether to go on and have decided to do so since I have already invested time and money on the project, to not do so would constitute a criminal waste of resources.
I’ve already bought a $2.00 compass, blue pen and some paper.
Not to mention the time pouring over complex calculations that would leave Neil De Grasse Tyson scratching his head.
But as usual I digress..
(https://i.ibb.co/ggNgYNN/AC30-B185-E34-C-480-E-826-C-4-FE9105-B6948.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ggNgYNN)
The image you see before you is a dimensionless representation of the tone wheel on the ‘85. I think it will be sufficient to reproduce a new one on the trusty Myford.
The side box contains some measurements taken of the slot/bar sizes of the standard tone wheel, with a calculation of the ratio of slot to bar dimension.
This ratio will be preserved on the new one.
The slots and bars will be marginally wider to allow for the lesser number of elements, but knowing the 46/54 relationship, I will be able to calculate the circumference of the P.C.D. (pitched circle diameter), divide it by the new number (45), for the number of elements and come up with the slot size for the new wheel.
It needs to be added that to arrive with the 45 slots evenly spaced around the circle, I will make a disc about 500 mm diameter and step it out around the perimeter into 45 intervals. Any inaccuracy there, (not that there necessarily will be) will be divided by 10 or so on the product.
I fully expect that the sensor will not wet it’s pants even if the ratio is not preserved, but I may as well keep as many of the variables correct as is possible.
I expect that the sensor will think it has the standard tone wheel, but spinning at 6% less velocity.
Oh BTW..
Why is the drawing dimensionless..?
Because I don’t have a bloody 26 mm socket to get the rear axle nut off so as to get the wheel up on the bench..
Off to Total Tools....
WELL ALLLRIGHHTTYY THEN...! :bike-037:
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[pedantic mode]
That would be "pair of compasses".
[/pedantic mode]
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[pedantic mode]
That would be "pair of compasses".
[/pedantic mode]
Don't turn "Pedantic mode" off yet!
What did you pour over the calculations? Hope it didn't stain them too bad.
NOW
[/pedantic mode] off
Lannis
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Dash consumption ?
The third variable that the distance measurement gets used for in ecu
Spped = distance / time
Odo = distance
Consumption = distance / fuel used ( or vice versa depending on language)
All 3 were different on Gonzo’s Honda
If v85 has range remaining figure, this too will change
Gonzo called this number ecu distance
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[pedantic mode]
That would be "pair of compasses".
[/pedantic mode]
Hmm...
You’d think so Mark, but when I got home and unwrapped it, the pivot had come out and half of it was missing.
So I used a dinner plate and a saucer..
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Don't turn "Pedantic mode" off yet!
What did you pour over the calculations? Hope it didn't stain them too bad.
NOW
[/pedantic mode] off
Lannis
Got me you bugger...!
I love that sort of stuff, even when I’m the victim.. :thumb: :thumb:
Suffice to say though Lannis if I’m as successful as I hope to be, goodness knows what fluids will be spontaneously produced as a by product of my unbridled excitement.
I’m not as well calibrated as I hope my tone wheel ends up.. :clock:
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[pedantic mode]
That would be "pair of compasses".
[/pedantic mode]
Now Mark..
Wasn’t it you that pointed out to me that the meaning of pedantic was (among other things), to present an ostentatious display of knowlege ?
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Don't turn "Pedantic mode" off yet!
What did you pour over the calculations? Hope it didn't stain them too bad.
NOW
[/pedantic mode] off
Lannis
Also that’d be “too badly”.
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The third variable that the distance measurement gets used for in ecu
Spped = distance / time
Odo = distance
Consumption = distance / fuel used ( or vice versa depending on language)
All 3 were different on Gonzo’s Honda
If v85 has range remaining figure, this too will change
Gonzo called this number ecu distance
At 100 kph, the distance to empty+the current trip distance, occasionally added up to 500 k’s.
But generally about 470 k’s.
It won’t be as good as my Norge..(nothing is), but it’ll be close.
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Wasn’t it you that pointed out to me that the meaning of pedantic was (among other things), to present an ostentatious display of knowlege ?
Sounds like something I'd do. After all, I am ostentatiously knowledgeable.
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Sounds like something I'd do. After all, I am ostentatiously knowledgeable.
That’s true Mark.
You’re the smartest fish in your pool.
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Here’s a shot of the panel on the ‘85
(https://i.ibb.co/tPvKBpW/26-B1315-A-469-D-4165-AE0-B-6647-E7-FC8-E94.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tPvKBpW)
The trip distance+distance to empty usually come close to 500 k’s.
Depending on speeds, reliably around 480.
So not a bad range really.
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I'd be extremely surprised if either Speedo or Odo worked on the pulse differential betwixt fore & aft.
Yes, for Traction/Wheelie Control & ABS absolutely; these are all a function of pulse rate differential, but speed & distance related calculations are solely a rear wheel pulse rate function I'd surmise.
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I'd be extremely surprised if either Speedo or Odo worked on the pulse differential betwixt fore & aft.
Yes, for Traction/Wheelie Control & ABS absolutely; these are all a function of pulse rate differential, but speed & distance related calculations are solely a rear wheel pulse rate function I'd surmise.
I put the bike on the centrestand and spun the rear wheel by hand.
The speedo read, but not when I spun the front wheel.
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I put the bike on the centrestand and spun the rear wheel by hand.
The speedo read, but not when I spun the front wheel.
So, are you sure the speedo pulses are coming from the ABS discs? The reason I ask is that my previous ride (Honda CTX700) had ABS on the Australian models, but not on some other models, so the speedo pulses came from a gearbox sensor (otherwise the non-ABS models wouldn't have a speedo). Is there a cable coming out of the gearbox?
Gonzo
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So, are you sure the speedo pulses are coming from the ABS discs? The reason I ask is that my previous ride (Honda CTX700) had ABS on the Australian models, but not on some other models, so the speedo pulses came from a gearbox sensor (otherwise the non-ABS models wouldn't have a speedo). Is there a cable coming out of the gearbox?
Gonzo
Bloody hell Gonzo, you’ve got a point there..
No I’m not as sure as I was since you mention it. I’ll take the sensor off and test it again, I only presumed as much and could very easily be wrong.
You may have saved me from a huge waste of time...
Thank you.
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Bloody hell Gonzo, you’ve got a point there..
No I’m not as sure as I was since you mention it. I’ll take the sensor off and test it again, I only presumed as much and could very easily be wrong.
You may have saved me from a huge waste of time...
Thank you.
Well, beetle did say in reply no.7 that the data typically came from the ABS, but since it's a new model, I assume no-one has the wiring diagrams yet??
Gonzo
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Huzo, didn't you already make a ring? (Just not the desired amount of correction?) Since it did make a change, it would be safe to assume your idea can be pursued.
Further, I'm not aware of any offering of the V85 that comes without ABS so it would be unlikely that there is another sensor somewhere. To qualify, I don't know this for certain. Just using logic.
John Henry
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Well, beetle did say in reply no.7 that the data typically came from the ABS, but since it's a new model, I assume no-one has the wiring diagrams yet??
Gonzo
Yep.
Read that..
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Huzo, didn't you already make a ring? (Just not the desired amount of correction?) Since it did make a change, it would be safe to assume your idea can be pursued.
Further, I'm not aware of any offering of the V85 that comes without ABS so it would be unlikely that there is another sensor somewhere. To qualify, I don't know this for certain. Just using logic.
John Henry
No not yet.
I have been working out the tooling and process for the machining. It’s the milling of the slots that held me up.
I don’t have any aspect of the procedure now, that I have not got a plan for.
I’m currently in Northern NSW and will be home tomorrow night. I’ll begin the setting up on Thursday.
Watch this space..
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Is there a cable coming out of the gearbox?
There is not.
I assume no-one has the wiring diagrams yet??
You assume incorrectly.
The speed signal comes from the ABS unit, and is sent to the ECU. There are no sensors other than those on the wheels. There are no non-ABS models.
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There is not.
The speed signal comes from the ABS unit, and is sent to the ECU. There are no sensors other than those on the wheels. There are no non-ABS models.
You beauty..
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(https://i.ibb.co/fnrR3DN/DB6-D53-C1-7731-4-CB5-A0-B9-202-CB369-BEB5.png) (https://ibb.co/fnrR3DN)
Would these suffice ?
(https://i.ibb.co/X8KWfHN/AD244171-B6-D3-4268-B94-A-EB81-C9657663.png) (https://ibb.co/X8KWfHN)
(https://i.ibb.co/3vnhvd5/DD448-EAD-E351-47-FB-9-DE3-D3-D60299-B789.png) (https://ibb.co/3vnhvd5)
(https://i.ibb.co/BZTDPgW/3943-CDD5-B94-C-4703-9-BBD-DBD169-DAEB3-C.png) (https://ibb.co/BZTDPgW)
(https://i.ibb.co/kMSMXTB/2-AFCE3-ED-AC25-44-A5-92-AA-C3-A01780-CD95.png) (https://ibb.co/kMSMXTB)
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#79 on the 7SM seems to have a fair bit to say regarding vehicle speed..
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There is not.
You assume incorrectly.
The speed signal comes from the ABS unit, and is sent to the ECU. There are no sensors other than those on the wheels. There are no non-ABS models.
Gee, there's lots of good info on this forum. Thanks.
Now we await the results of the machining....
Gonzo
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I’m currently in Northern NSW and will be home tomorrow night. I’ll begin the setting up on Thursday.
No I bloody well won’t.
I have to go to Adelaide in the morning...BUGGER..!
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I hope your truck has decent aircon !
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I hope your truck has decent aircon !
Yep, it has .
Leaving for Adelaide now, 45 deg there...
The bunk cooler is good too.. :thumb:
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Here’s a shot of the panel on the ‘85
(https://i.ibb.co/tPvKBpW/26-B1315-A-469-D-4165-AE0-B-6647-E7-FC8-E94.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tPvKBpW)
The trip distance+distance to empty usually come close to 500 k’s.
Depending on speeds, reliably around 480.
So not a bad range really.
The dash was one thing I didn't care for riding this bike.
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The dash was one thing I didn't care for riding this bike.
If I’d had my way I’d have preferred standard clocks too.
As long is it all stays working I’ll not be too upset though.
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If I’d had my way I’d have preferred standard clocks too.
As long is it all stays working I’ll not be too upset though.
Funny, my Ducati has a monographic screen. I was enthused about it but upon first ride, I liked it immediately. It works well, intuitive and has lots of capability and information and it's not distracting. The Owner's Manual is 300 pages of which 170 are dedicated to operating dashboard.
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My previous ride had a digital speedo, and I found I was concerned with getting it to read correctly. My current 12-y-o Breva has an analogue speedo, and I haven't bothered checking its accuracy because it doesn't worry me in the same way.
The analogue one is approximately correct, but the digital one was exactly wrong!
Gonzo
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The analogue one is approximately correct, but the digital one was exactly wrong!
Gonzo
There are two major reasons that I’m doing this and you have nailed one of them.
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My previous ride had a digital speedo, and I found I was concerned with getting it to read correctly. My current 12-y-o Breva has an analogue speedo, and I haven't bothered checking its accuracy because it doesn't worry me in the same way.
The analogue one is approximately correct, but the digital one was exactly wrong!
Gonzo
Am I the only one who can't read the digital speedo in some light conditions, I keep an approximate speed by watching the analog tach needle
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Well it’s really started now..
I’ve decided to produce the tone wheel on the face plate of my lathe. Among other things I needed to arrange the tooling so I could cut 45 slots evenly around the circle.
I started by turning a light groove around the perimeter of the face plate like this.
(https://i.ibb.co/qsHYCzS/BCCAE9-BA-1544-4879-97-B9-E2986-FF9-F608.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qsHYCzS)
I then put a layer of tape around the perimeter and used a set of dividers to step out the intervals. The tape was useful in that the process is based on trial and error as you’re approaching the exact distance and with the tape you can see the dots from previous attempts.
I succeeded in achieving 45 equal intervals and it looks like this.
(https://i.ibb.co/MC9yF1w/B141-A12-D-8-AAC-4-CD3-8-EC0-F3156779-F98-B.jpg) (https://ibb.co/MC9yF1w)
(https://i.ibb.co/qp7qfqj/8-D76-ACBD-8-E6-D-4-B12-946-B-6309-
D9318509.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qp7qfqj)
(https://i.ibb.co/TTNLcTH/4020-E6-D4-21-F9-463-A-BDF1-E29-EE2707-D86.jpg) (https://ibb.co/TTNLcTH)
Then I bored the holes you see and produced a locking mechanism so there’ll be no drifting as the holes are milled.
(https://i.ibb.co/Kz1JdH2/26-D7-FFA8-07-E2-4-CF0-B7-A4-44-CE94-D0-F16-C.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Kz1JdH2)
(https://i.ibb.co/tq6L7Kd/F885-E952-66-DE-4941-8-A1-A-1-E6-E1106-B7-A9.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tq6L7Kd)
(https://i.ibb.co/LSKFnf9/5693-D00-B-E027-4-D57-B3-CC-495-B465-D50-BE.jpg) (https://ibb.co/LSKFnf9)
Next step is to set up stops on the cross slide so the cutter will cut the slots the correct length and mount the mill drive.
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That's nice work.
I don't think I would have been brave enough to drill the faceplate on my lathe (if I had one). I guess it's a lot cheaper than buying a dividing head!
Awaiting updates!
Gonzo
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That's nice work.
I don't think I would have been brave enough to drill the faceplate on my lathe (if I had one). I guess it's a lot cheaper than buying a dividing head!
Awaiting updates!
Gonzo
My Dad bought that lathe in 1969 and left it to me when he passed away 1997..
He would possibly have approved because it was done in the spirit of creating something else and will not affect the plate.
I guess I’ll find out when I get to hell and meet him...
I’d rather face the Devil.. :evil:
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Is the computer for the abs calibrated to the 48 slots or does it just see pulses and figure the differential between front and rear? :popcorn:
Paul B :boozing:
I just re read that post Paul and with the (slightly) greater knowlege I now have, I’d suggest that the sensors see the tone wheel slots as effectively a straight line.
As each slot passes, it is travelling at a tangent to the perimeter of the circle (mathematically speaking).
I’m bound to admit though, that the computer may have been “told” that 48 slots= 1 revolution.
So my logic is that under the new arrangement, it will take longer for 48 slots to register for any given speed than before, so a 6% lower figure will be generated.
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Ok.
Tomorrow I’ll make an aluminium block to clamp around the machined section of the drill near the chuck.
The 6mm end mill goes into the chuck at centre height with two stops on the cross slide and will be about time to start making slots.
(https://i.ibb.co/dtJCHFV/BEFDA7-BF-F6-AA-4-E71-BE47-751410-D2843-A.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dtJCHFV)
The only drama I can conceive is a lack of rigidity in the chuck, time will tell.
There’s a solution at hand if needs be, but will be a bit of a saga..(as usual).
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Ok.
Tomorrow I’ll make an aluminium block to clamp around the machined section of the drill near the chuck.
The 6mm end mill goes into the chuck at centre height with two stops on the cross slide and will be about time to start making slots.
(https://i.ibb.co/dtJCHFV/BEFDA7-BF-F6-AA-4-E71-BE47-751410-D2843-A.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dtJCHFV)
The only drama I can conceive is a lack of rigidity in the chuck, time will tell.
There’s a solution at hand if needs be, but will be a bit of a saga..(as usual).
Sheesh, seems like a lot of work, hope it works out for you.
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Sheesh, seems like a lot of work, hope it works out for you.
Me too mate.
Really though, not counting a bit of shopping for bits and pieces, from taking the wheel out of the bike to what you see, is about 8 hours or so.
Tomorrow I should be ready to cut the first slot if I get a decent run at it..
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Me too mate.
Really though, not counting a bit of shopping for bits and pieces, from taking the wheel out of the bike to what you see, is about 8 hours or so.
Tomorrow I should be ready to cut the first slot if I get a decent run at it..
Good luck with that mate, I reckon the ratio of slot to metal (between the slots) isn't critical at all, as long as the electronics gets a pulse it won't care.
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Good luck with that mate, I reckon the ratio of slot to metal (between the slots) isn't critical at all, as long as the electronics gets a pulse it won't care.
That’s comforting to hear from an electronics dude..
I have precision measured the standard width of slots and bars, the ratio is 54/46 %
I have preserved that ratio just in case..
A 6 mm end mill is only a few thou’ from what the calculation called for on the new 45 slot wheel.
I seriously believe the sensor will see the same command as before but at a 6% different rpm.
Also..(I’m hazy on this)
If it is indeed possible to recalibrate the system to allow for a different profile rear tyre, surely that is due to the new rear tyre spinning at a different ratio of front/rear wheel rpm due to it’s different diameter hence rpm.
So.
I’m hoping that when I install the new rear tone wheel, the brain will see a lower rear wheel rpm and sense a rear wheel lock condition. I’m further hoping that it will throw up a command to the ABS as it would if I’d fitted a larger diameter rear tyre.
We know that this can be fixed in the on board calibration via mode button...Yes ? :popcorn:
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fascinating huzo...your going to hate me for saying this but why not just get a sygma digital spedo ??? My kilometre speedo lies like a Sicilian accountant even though it was just overhauled so I spent about 40 euro and supplemented it with the cheaper sygma digital one...I mean it does look a bit odd on a classic seventies guzzi but wtf...at least I know how fast I'm really going
so I do get that!
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fascinating huzo...your going to hate me for saying this but why not just get a sygma digital spedo ??? My kilometre speedo lies like a Sicilian accountant even though it was just overhauled so I spent about 40 euro and supplemented it with the cheaper sygma digital one...I mean it does look a bit odd on a classic seventies guzzi but wtf...at least I know how fast I'm really going
so I do get that!
Why do you say that FF, nothing you could do or say would manage to change my opinion of you... :grin: :thumb:
I don’t hate you any more than I already did....
Seriously mate..
I think we both know why I’m so invested in this. Our winey conversation in your beautiful home in Southern France gave us both an insight into our respective psyche’s.. :wink:
Why do some people build a beautiful lifestyle in the French hills, when for a lot less “work” they could live in suburbia, yet they take a more circuitous route, to satisfy an urge to solve a problem.
If your new bathroom had inbuilt flaws..(floors?), would you alter it so it ends up lovely like it now does, or get a set of eye covers so you didn’t have to look at it ?
I want to fix the problem mate, not the symptom.
ps
Get that bloody Quota in out of the weather...
And
Keep the window open in the upstairs room, best rest I ever had... :wink: :kiss:
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Yup ...your right and if I didn't have so many other important things to do I would do as you too !!!! I was gutted to find out how inaccurate my speedo was...the mph version isn't anyway near as bad !!!!! :laugh: :laugh:
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Just thought while you're machining the discs....
Is there any way to put an intermediate device between the ECU and the dash? I was thinking something like an Arduino that intercepts all messages and passes them on, but "tweaks" the speed messages to be X% less.
Gonzo
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Just thought while you're machining the discs....
Is there any way to put an intermediate device between the ECU and the dash? I was thinking something like an Arduino that intercepts all messages and passes them on, but "tweaks" the speed messages to be X% less.
Gonzo
Yeah there’s a black box thing that “fixes” it.
Plug and play apparently. I wondered for a while why I didn’t go that route..
Then I stopped wondering.
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Here’s the latest..
I’ve mounted the cutter (so to speak..), I’ve yet to set some stops on the cross slide to ensure accurate repetition of the slot size, but I did a couple free hand because I couldn’t wait..!
Here’s some still shots from the video.
(https://i.ibb.co/BZJCVzT/812741-BB-79-CD-4-EBE-A2-FD-7-D9052274-D6-D.png) (https://ibb.co/BZJCVzT)
(https://i.ibb.co/5xcHfnq/0-EA44-CAA-2-C22-4504-9353-676-ECEB0-F1-B4.png) (https://ibb.co/5xcHfnq)
(https://i.ibb.co/ypTcLjR/EFFF913-F-BB65-4761-990-E-A861580-F50-CB.png) (https://ibb.co/ypTcLjR)
(https://i.ibb.co/YR8q5rR/19993-EB6-1-E4-A-4-EE7-BE7-B-873-F27007-D74.png) (https://ibb.co/YR8q5rR)
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Today’s exciting episode..
I made the stops for the cross slide and went around with two rows of holes. This is to allow the end mill to terminate in a clean hole at the end of the slot.
(https://i.ibb.co/WxkKnG4/2293-D153-2539-4535-A222-842386-EC2564.jpg) (https://ibb.co/WxkKnG4)
(https://i.ibb.co/JRXHSCp/A6-D218-F3-9-D09-4-E68-8-F49-E9180-DB42-EA8.png) (https://ibb.co/JRXHSCp)
Then on to the milling of the slots.
(https://i.ibb.co/RTM0DQb/0819-D7-BA-0-C26-4-C68-B47-D-348-B25-C38621.jpg) (https://ibb.co/RTM0DQb)
The reason the bottom of the holes look so gummy, is that there’s a piece of 2.5 mm aluminium plate under the steel, to give the milling tool something to drop into when it breaks through the steel.
They’ll need some tidying up post machining, but I’m happy with the repetition aspect so far..I’m half way around.
Jeez I hope the bastard works..
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nice field work mate! It's great what a bit of ingenuity and thought can produce...looks like you nearly there !
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nice field work mate! It's great what a bit of ingenuity and thought can produce...looks like you nearly there !
Yeah, it’s going ok FF.
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Dunno if your speedo inaccuracy is the same as mine Huzo, but I have noted that mine reads 7 kM too high, regardless of legal speed. If it had have been a analog speedometer, I could have lifted the glass off the front and bent the needle to correct.
What you're doing is admirable, and I applaud you for your efforts. But isn't change the ratio just going to fix the calibration at one speed, and therefore displace the others to perhaps further inaccuracy? That is, if your situation is the same as mine. If not, ignore everything I said. :boozing:
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Dunno if your speedo inaccuracy is the same as mine Huzo, but I have noted that mine reads 7 kM too high, regardless of legal speed. If it had have been a analog speedometer, I could have lifted the glass off the front and bent the needle to correct.
What you're doing is admirable, and I applaud you for your efforts. But isn't change the ratio just going to fix the calibration at one speed, and therefore displace the others to perhaps further inaccuracy? That is, if your situation is the same as mine. If not, ignore everything I said. :boozing:
I don’t think that is correct Dave because there will be a 6% alteration of the pulses per second whether they be 10 per sec or 750 per second.
Now, I’m not holding myself up as an authority on this, if I’m wrong, I’ll crash like a bitch but I won’t die wondering.
If you were correct, an indicated 10 kph would become 4 kph and an indicated 180 would become 174 for example.
One is a 70% inaccuracy and the other a 4% inaccuracy.
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Just in case y’all are still following, I’m up to here.
(https://i.ibb.co/g6SPNHj/BA4-D7574-C541-4193-B9-F6-83-F252-E91712.jpg) (https://ibb.co/g6SPNHj)
Tomorrow I’ll trim the O.D. and do the holes. Then it’s on the bike with it and try ‘er out.
This time tomorrow it’ll be in the scrap bin... :cry: :embarrassed:
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Looking great!
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Looking great!
Yeah, if it only had to supply the speedo with no front one for the crappy ABS and TC, I’d be quietly confident.
As it is I’m cautiously optimistic.
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Well it looks good so far, you've certainly done your part. Hopefully we will read only positive reports after testing. Merry Christmas.
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.
This time tomorrow it’ll be in the scrap bin... :cry: :embarrassed:
That's not very optimistic. Perhaps it works great but you will have to make a mate for the other wheel. Or better yet, it works and all that is left is to recalibrate the puter.
Whatever the outcome, it will not be for lack of trying. :boozing:
ZZ
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That's not very optimistic. Perhaps it works great but you will have to make a mate for the other wheel. Or better yet, it works and all that is left is to recalibrate the puter.
Whatever the outcome, it will not be for lack of trying. :boozing:
ZZ
I think it will be the first example.
I am hoping like mad that I can recalibrate though as you say. Thanks for your interest.
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I got onto it again after lunch..
Boring the mounting holes and doing the outside diameter revealed this..
(https://i.ibb.co/Wf1J4hc/EF3-EF7-EF-4-F7-C-4-A4-A-949-C-267455-B0-D929.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Wf1J4hc)
I don’t have six suitable mounting bolts so I’ve gotta’ wait ‘till tomorrow.
But here is the carnage so far..
(https://i.ibb.co/tx4t1sF/C72-DF0-C2-61-C6-4727-A079-92-C6372-D96-A5.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tx4t1sF)
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very nicely done Huzo...fingers crossed !!
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very nicely done Huzo...fingers crossed !!
Yeah, legs too FF.
(Like my first wife..)
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Its looking great Even if it doesn't work the process of thinking it through and manufacturing has been a worthy exercise.
When you first raised the idea of making a new tone wheel I thought about how I might do it.
I don't have a lathe so I would have approached the problem differently.
With my drawing program I would draw out the tone wheel I'm assuming it has a tool for dividing a circle.
Then print it out on my laser printer using transfer paper.
Iron the transfer paper onto a thin steel plate, the ink in a standard laser printer cartridge is actually ground up plastic, it fuses onto the paper and will act as a crude etch resist.
Ironing with a regular iron on cotton setting transfers the image from paper to metal.
Etch the plate using Feric Chloride, it will etch away any metal not protected by the printer ink, an etch resist pen can be used to touch up any exposed spots.
I make copper printed circuits this way, my $100 laser printer will even scale and print backwards to get text as a mirror image.
It wouldn't be as neat as yours though and probably take me longer.
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That’s also quite ingenious.
I’m not being disingenuous.
There’s no shortage of cunning stunts around here..
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Ok.
Got the bolts and did this.
(https://i.ibb.co/jWKfNB2/8-C2-CDEC0-2-C70-4-F5-E-A837-373-B207164-E0.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jWKfNB2)
Then added this
(https://i.ibb.co/xmqTN9Q/1-F569763-F879-4-D9-E-998-D-443259-B7-A1-F8.jpg) (https://ibb.co/xmqTN9Q)
Started it, let the clutch out and the speedo did this
(https://i.ibb.co/Z1Crm6W/110-E6231-39-EF-4-DDD-BBB4-0-CEADB40-F83-C.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Z1Crm6W)
When the temperature cools down a bit, I’ll put the axle nut on, and go for a ride to see what the next exciting episode holds.
Maybe some calibration action if I’m lucky.. :bike-037:
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What model and tire sizes do you have?
Sorry mate, I think I forgot to answer your post.
Rosso Vulcano and I’m not sure of the size.
Too hot to go out and check.
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Interesting , wonder what a small run of these cut on a water jet would cost ?
Dusty
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Interesting , wonder what a small run of these cut on a water jet would cost ?
Dusty
I got a quote at the start and about $500 for two.
That was when I thought they were both the same, so given that each is a one off, the price probably would have been more. Most of the money is in the set up as all would probably have guessed.
That would have been ok, but I sort of wanted to do it myself and if it all went badly, I could toss it in the bin and I’ve lost very little Dusty.
Really though, I thought $500 was pretty good, even if it went up from there.
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Well..
The temperature dropped enough for a jaunt. Report is the speedo is digitally perfect up to 80 kph and 1 kph at 120 kph.
(https://i.ibb.co/cr4CpbK/6-B054477-1-BDC-4362-A6-FF-218-FD8-F7-A459.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cr4CpbK)
I did the calibration and it worked just like it said right here on T.V....!
Selected calibration in the menu and rode at 30 kph and after 10 seconds it said calibration complete.
No ABS or TC warnings.
The yellow light is the low fuel warning.
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Yeh
Let me be the first to congratulate you
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Congratulations my Friend !!!!!!
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Thank you guys I appreciate it..
I will do a better shot next chance.
BTW.. The odometer checked out very well also, but it was only a small run of 20 k’s. I’ll do a 200 k or so test.
Funny thing is..
The gear indicator only reads up to “5”, even when you’re in 6th..
When going up through the gears, the digital indicator is slow to register the new selected ratio and will not go above a 5 th gear indication.
Changing back down through the ‘box, the change from 6th to 5th changes nothing on the panel, then the indications are ok from there.
Hmmm.....
I think I’ll do another calibration run and then leave well alone.
I have an Agostini Y pipe arriving soon and I’m doing a set of stainless headers to compliment it. Maybe titanium but I think stainless..
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Congratulations Peter
I nearly posted earlier when I seen the gear indication on your first test with the dash and wondered if it would be affected.
Aftermarket gear indicators use the speed and RPM pickups to deterime the gear (as you know) and I'd have thought that the rear wheel would be used in preference to the front as it doesn't turn or get raised by a wheelie or even when under hard acceleration on an undualting surface.
I've read some smarter ECUs on Japanese bikes in particular do it some other way (no idea how) and Ducati actually used a sensor reading position of the selector drum in the gearbox on some of it's race bikes.
John
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Congratulations Peter
I nearly posted earlier when I seen the gear indication on your first test with the dash and wondered if it would be affected.
Aftermarket gear indicators use the speed and RPM pickups to deterime the gear (as you know) and I'd have thought that the rear wheel would be used in preference to the front as it doesn't turn or get raised by a wheelie or even when under hard acceleration on an undualting surface.
I've read some smarter ECUs on Japanese bikes in particular do it some other way (no idea how) and Ducati actually used a sensor reading position of the selector drum in the gearbox on some of it's race bikes.
John
That’s got the smell of truth about it John..
I did not know that gear position indication was a function of speed/rpm but it really makes sense at some level to me.
That is a bit over my head, it’s electronics..
I’m going to move onto my new stainless header mod and eventually do a new front tone wheel.
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Looks like all the hard work paid off Peter. Good job.
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That’s got the smell of truth about it John..
I did not know that gear position was a function of speed/rpm but it really makes sense at some level to me.
That is a bit over my head, it’s electronics..
I’m going to move onto my new stainless header mod and eventually do a new front tone wheel.
Well it's just best guess in my case but it does seem probable and it would be how much of a window was allowed in the ratio and the closeness between ratios for given gears. I wonder about the traction control and ABS too as discussed, earlier. In the current state the rear wheel will be creating a lower frequency than the front.
I have no clue, if it would do anything, you'd need to know the trigger points ASS-uming it's a frequency differential that triggers either system. It could be reliant on rate of change, if that was the case then it would still work as before (I think) as both back and front frequencies although different would be constant relative to each other.
It's an interesting project and gives everybody some insight into how these things work. Personally if it had annoyed me that much I'd have went down the Arduino route or the like to electronically alter the signals as I think that would have been cheaper and easier (for me anyway, I don't have a lathe but I do have a soldering iron).
John
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eventually do a new front tone wheel.
I'll bet that will cure your gear change indicator problem.
I'm pleasantly surprised that the speed indication came out as expected.
Good job!
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Congrats Huzo!! :thumb:
It will be interesting if all falls back in line when the other tone wheel is installed. Now mass production @19.95, free shipping and yer a bazillionaire :evil:
You too can become famous like the "shift spring" boys!
Paul B :boozing:
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Well done. I was sure it would work but I forgot that the V85 has a gear indicator. The ECU just looks at road speed and rpm and calculates what gear you're in. Pretty simple. But difficult to adjust :-(
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Well it's just best guess in my case but it does seem probable and it would be how much of a window was allowed in the ratio and the closeness between ratios for given gears. I wonder about the traction control and ABS too as discussed, earlier. In the current state the rear wheel will be creating a lower frequency than the front.
I have no clue, if it would do anything, you'd need to know the trigger points ASS-uming it's a frequency differential that triggers either system. It could be reliant on rate of change, if that was the case then it would still work as before (I think) as both back and front frequencies although different would be constant relative to each other.
It's an interesting project and gives everybody some insight into how these things work. Personally if it had annoyed me that much I'd have went down the Arduino route or the like to electronically alter the signals as I think that would have been cheaper and easier (for me anyway, I don't have a lathe but I do have a soldering iron).
John
It would always have had a different frequency John, because the slot numbers were the same but the wheel diameters are different.
I think the brain needs to see a different frequency, it’s a target difference if you will.
Has anyone tried the black box ?
I may yet produce a front one. ( tone wheel)
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To each his own but...
I can't understand the importance of having a dead accurate speedo as long as you know the error you can mentally compensate but that's just me.
Here is a site that sell s a electronic gismo that can do the same thing, plug a play. Its was designed for those who make significant changes in their gearing as is relatively easy with the chain drive
https sprocketcenter.com
speedo-DRD
SKU: SpeedoDRD
$72.00
cheers,
:-)
The smallest electronic speedometer calibration device in the world !!! Easier to setup than any other device on the market. Simple plug-in installation for many vehicles using factory OEM connectors.
- Simple plug-in installation using factory OEM connectors, no splicing
- Saves max speed, which can be recalled to your stock speedometer gauge
- Weather-proof design to protect against the elements
- 3 year product replacement warranty
- Made in the USA
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To each his own but...
I can't understand the importance of having a dead accurate speedo as long as you know the error you can mentally compensate but that's just me.
Here is a site that sell s a electronic gismo that can do the same thing, plug a play. Its was designed for those who make significant changes in their gearing as is relatively easy with the chain drive
https sprocketcenter.com
speedo-DRD
SKU: SpeedoDRD
$72.00
cheers,
:-)
The smallest electronic speedometer calibration device in the world !!! Easier to setup than any other device on the market. Simple plug-in installation for many vehicles using factory OEM connectors.
- Simple plug-in installation using factory OEM connectors, no splicing
- Saves max speed, which can be recalled to your stock speedometer gauge
- Weather-proof design to protect against the elements
- 3 year product replacement warranty
- Made in the USA
If the pitot was wrongly mounted on your plane, would you fix the pitot or put a new face on the ASI ?
Also
Has anyone bought one of these boxes ?
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It would always have had a different frequency John, because the slot numbers were the same but the wheel diameters are different.
I think the brain needs to see a different frequency, it’s a target difference if you will.
Has anyone tried the black box ?
I may yet produce a front one.
Of course Peter, my mistake, I could go on to speculate other scenarios but what's the point, let's see what happens
I'll bet that will cure your gear change indicator problem.
Mmm I'm not trying to start a fight just asking a question Rocker, why do you think that?
I hope it does but can't think why
John
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If the pitot was wrongly mounted on your plane, would you fix the pitot or put a new face on the ASI ?
Also
Has anyone bought one of these boxes ?
I'm sorry to rain on your parade but I find that a poor analogy as your on the ground riding your moto and in the air its a safety issue of the highest order. (airspeed)
Yes I know a guy that is in the custom Harley business that tells me that it works well, but I might add this is hearsay and I have no direct experience.
Cheers
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I hope it does but can't think why
John
My money says gear change indicator is reading the front tone ring and speedometer is reading the rear tone ring. My "guess" is that the new tone ring will get the inputs back within spec.
Or, it could be an error totally unrelated to the new tone ring! LOL! Wouldn't that be funny.
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Curious!
Your saying that you have to be moving for the gear indicator to indicate what gear your in?? My K1200RS would tell me in the parking lot standing still what gear I was in.
:-)?
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And so do some other Guzzi models, notably the CARC models.
The V85 has gone for the cheaper option, but it does tell you when you've found neutral, even when you've stopped. When moving, the mathematics take a little time to determine the gear selected, but it does happen.
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I'm sorry to rain on your parade but I find that a poor analogy as your on the ground riding your moto and in the air its a safety issue of the highest order. (airspeed)
Yes I know a guy that is in the custom Harley business that tells me that it works well, but I might add this is hearsay and I have no direct experience.
Cheers
Yes I do understand the airspeed thing and all..
But I want the problem fixed, not the symptom.
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I don’t recall suggesting that the bike has to be moving to indicate a gear selection.
If y’all have a look at the bottom shot in post #184, you’ll see that with the bike on the centrestand and the rear wheel turning, the gear indicator correctly shows 1st gear.
In this case the bike knows it’s stationary because the front wheel is still.
Oddly though, why does the TC allow this condition, how does it know that I’m not doing a burnout in the grass and prevent me ?
I tried to spin the rear wheel the other day in the grass and was understandably prevented by the TC.
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Just for the record and to make it easier to find you later, is there anyone out there that categorically agrees with me...?
Xlratr..
Did you happen to read this post ?
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Well done. I was sure it would work
?
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Question, If it's on the centerstand, key on, not running and as you rotate the rear wheel by hand and run up through the gears does the indicator show properly?
Paul B :boozing:
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Xlratr..
Did you happen to read this post ?
Yep. I replied on 11. December.
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Question, If it's on the centerstand, key on, not running and as you rotate the rear wheel by hand and run up through the gears does the indicator show properly?
Paul B :boozing:
Hmm..
Dunno mate, but I’m gunna’ get up, take a piss and wander out to have a look.
Keep asking diagnostic based questions, I love ‘em.
Another thing ..
If you have an unmolested system on your V85 that works and you change to a different tyre and do a recalibration, you do not inherit a gear position indicator problem.
Now why is that ?
After all, when you alter your tyre size, all the sensor knows is that you’ve changed the pulses per second and a recalibration brings it all back to normal. All I did from the point of view of the CPU is to do the same thing... :popcorn:
The waters are becoming muddied here for me.
Unless some miracle occurs, I’m going to have to make a front one. Now everything is set up tooling wise, it’s probably about 8 hours..
I just thought I was more or less finished.. :sad: :cry:
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Yep. I replied on 11. December.
So you damn well did mate.. :embarrassed:
My apologies to you.. :bow: :thumb:
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Question, If it's on the centerstand, key on, not running and as you rotate the rear wheel by hand and run up through the gears does the indicator show properly?
Paul B :boozing:
I just checked that Paul.
When the bike is on the centrestand, key “on”, not running.
The only gear indication you get is the “N” for neutral, cycling up and down through the ‘box rotating the wheel by hand, does not give a gear indication at any point.
Can anyone with a standard (unmolested) V85, do a similar test ?
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No, it does not display anything but neutral with the key on, but I just reinstalled the rear wheel after fixing a flat so there may be something else involved with that. Will report back after I take a ride.
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No, it does not display anything but neutral with the key on, but I just reinstalled the rear wheel after fixing a flat so there may be something else involved with that. Will report back after I take a ride.
Thank you mate..
Will await your report.
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After a quick spin around the block, it doesn't display anything other than neutral with the engine off.
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After a quick spin around the block, it doesn't display anything other than neutral with the engine off.
Thank you. That’s comforting information, it all combines to form knowlege based informed opinion.
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Hmm..
Dunno mate, but I’m gunna’ get up, take a piss and wander out to have a look.
Keep asking diagnostic based questions, I love ‘em.
Another thing ..
If you have an unmolested system on your V85 that works and you change to a different tyre and do a recalibration, you do not inherit a gear position indicator problem.
Now why is that ?
After all, when you alter your tyre size, all the sensor knows is that you’ve changed the pulses per second and a recalibration brings it all back to normal. All I did from the point of view of the CPU is to do the same thing... :popcorn:
The waters are becoming muddied here for me.
Unless some miracle occurs, I’m going to have to make a front one. Now everything is set up tooling wise, it’s probably about 8 hours..
I just thought I was more or less finished.. :sad: :cry:
The gearing is the ratio of the engine speed to the rear wheel speed, and by just changing the tyre size you don't change that. The ABS and traction control need to know about the actual speed, so they need re-calibration
I suspect that you may be out of luck with fixing the gearing unless there is a "re-calibration" for that (as items like the Healtech unit have).
Congrats, by the way.
Gonzo
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The gearing is the ratio of the engine speed to the rear wheel speed, and by just changing the tyre size you don't change that. The ABS and traction control need to know about the actual speed, so they need re-calibration
I suspect that you may be out of luck with fixing the gearing unless there is a "re-calibration" for that (as items like the Healtech unit have).
Congrats, by the way.
Gonzo
Oh dear..
I’m afraid that makes enough sense to worry me.
As you say, even if I put a new tone wheel on the front, it’ll have nothing to do with the rpm/rear wheel speed relationship.
I did not think of that..
Thanks...(I think)
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I don’t recall suggesting that the bike has to be moving to indicate a gear selection.
If y’all have a look at the bottom shot in post #184, you’ll see that with the bike on the centrestand and the rear wheel turning, the gear indicator correctly shows 1st gear.
In this case the bike knows it’s stationary because the front wheel is still.
Oddly though, why does the TC allow this condition, how does it know that I’m not doing a burnout in the grass and prevent me ?
I tried to spin the rear wheel the other day in the grass and was understandably prevented by the TC.
Excellent work. Your question sure opens another can of worms. The Harley I had used road speed vs rpm to indicate what gear I was. Pull the clutch lever and the display would go blank. My Audace shows what gear the gearbox is in no matter what, even if the engine has stalled. I would also be interested to see how the two different tone rings affect the ABS. I would be careful testing though. Would the ABS kick in early limiting braking effect? Very interesting work.
kk
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Too bad the gear indication is not working.
Since it works by comparing the ratio of engine speed to wheel pulse rate
You have increased the wheel pulse rate
Just as an experiment try slipping the clutch a little to change the ratio back.
I'm not suggesting this as a fix but it might be enough to move the indication to 6
Would it then move back to 5 when you let the clutch out or is there enough differential in the calc to stay on 6?
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Too bad the gear indication is not working.
Since it works by comparing the ratio of engine speed to wheel pulse rate
You have increased the wheel pulse rate
Just as an experiment try slipping the clutch a little to change the ratio back.
I'm not suggesting this as a fix but it might be enough to move the indication to 6
Would it then move back to 5 when you let the clutch out or is there enough differential in the calc to stay on 6?
Remember I reduced the number of slots so I have reduced the pulse rate.
However your thought experiment is worthy of consideration.
If I go along in sixth, I will currently see 5 th on the panel, because the engine is revving higher than it should for that rear wheel rpm.
If I pull in the clutch and gently bring the revs down about 600, you’d think the indicator would sense a lower rpm for that wheel speed and throw a 6 th gear indication..
Hmmm...
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If the selected gear is deduced by comparing engine rpm to rear wheel rotation, why does the gear number not change if you pull in the clutch in say, third at 4,00 revs and let the rpm drop so that you have a lower rpm for the same rear wheel speed?
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If the selected gear is deduced by comparing engine rpm to rear wheel rotation, why does the gear number not change if you pull in the clutch in say, third at 4,00 revs and let the rpm drop so that you have a lower rpm for the same rear wheel speed?
Because the ECU may understand that you pulled in the clutch. It does monitor that voltage. And it's only one additional "if clause" in the program needed to check the clutch status before changing its mind about what gear you're in.
By the way, I didn't pay any attention to this thread until yesterday. Quite impressive!
Moto
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Because the ECU may understand that you pulled in the clutch. It does monitor that voltage. And it's only one additional "if clause" in the program needed to check the clutch status before changing its mind about what gear you're in.
By the way, I didn't pay any attention to this thread until yesterday. Quite impressive!
Moto
I’m actually becoming more interested than I thought I would..
Regardless of the ultimate outcome, it’s actually a bit of fun. Thanks for your input.
Beetle was not optimistic from the start about this. He knew that there’d be hurdles to overcome that would be beyond the scope of what can be achieved with the ECU that we have in the ‘85.
I’ve done ok with my nuts and bolts approach, but there’s going to be a wall that I’m not good enough to climb.
Even if you could fool the tachometer by 6%, you’re then going to have erroneous readings on the panel.
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I'm not sure the ECU crunches the numbers for the gear indicator. The Cali 1400 has a gear position gizmo on the gearbox, as does the Aprilia RSV4. Mayhap the 7SM doesn't have code required. It's possible the V85 dash does all the crunching for the gear indicator. We don't know what data is transmitted over the CAN bus, so would wait until you've got the front tone wheel in before you give up hope.
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I'm not sure the ECU crunches the numbers for the gear indicator. The Cali 1400 has a gear position gizmo on the gearbox, as does the Aprilia RSV4. Mayhap the 7SM doesn't have code required. It's possible the V85 dash does all the crunching for the gear indicator. We don't know what data is transmitted over the CAN bus, so would wait until you've got the front tone wheel in before you give up hope.
Oh...OK then...?
Now that HAS got my attention.
You think Beetle, that knowing these things as you do, coupled with a bit of a gut feeling, that my continuing on and doing a front one may be worth my while..?
I would happily do the work on your say so alone with no further prompting required.
I’m not even after a tentative guarantee, I’m emboldened to continue given your ponderings.
Thank you for caring.
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Just in the interests of gathering information..
Does anyone know how the system gathers the reading for the tachometer?
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Just in the interests of gathering information..
Does anyone know how the system gathers the reading for the tachometer?
Phase sensor -> ECU -> Dash
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Just in the interests of gathering information..
Does anyone know how the system gathers the reading for the tachometer?
Wouldn't that come from the crank sensor?
kk
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Phase sensor -> ECU -> Dash
Ok.
Still over my head but now I know..
Thank you.
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Well..Here’s the good news.
(https://i.ibb.co/cr4CpbK/6-B054477-1-BDC-4362-A6-FF-218-FD8-F7-A459.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cr4CpbK)
Y’all have seen that before.
Here’s the other bit of good news
This turned up..
(https://i.ibb.co/rbgHXwv/E2315396-283-D-49-BF-B77-F-16-B4-CDC76901.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rbgHXwv)
So something to do when the bike cools down. But why is the bike so hot I hear you ask ?
Because I went for a GPS measured 100 km trip and a 78 km trip.
100 GPS measured km=91 on the trip meter....9% error
78 GPS measured km=72 on the trip meter....8% error (give or take)
That I think is not really acceptable and unless someone REALLY knowledgeable (yes HIM) says otherwise, I can’t see building a front tone wheel will make a scrap of difference to this particular problem.
Beetle’s sage advice regarding building a front tone wheel to talk some sense into the gear indicator is totally acceptable, but you can all see that there is more at stake than just that.
Even if you just said “bugger it all I’ll wear it”, you still have the problem that the service intervals will blow out by 8 or 9%, the gear selection indicator is not quite right (although probably would be by then) but worst of all from my perspective, the distance to empty function will be very unreliable.
As for the indicator, pulling the clutch erases the numeral so you cannot go up to 6th and crack the clutch allowing the revs to drop 500 or so and observe if the system is “fooled” enough to indicate 6th.
I guess I could disconnect the switch so the system didn’t know and run the experiment, but God only knows what secondary issue that would throw up.
I will leave the new tone wheel on for the short term, but if there are no developments, I think I’ll remove it. I do not want to savagely root up that distance to empty or service interval indicator.
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Disappointing.
Though I see that the new rear tone wheel could be responsible for the too-low trip odometer value, I have one question that I didn't see answered: Was the trip odometer measurement essentially accurate with the original tone wheel?
Moto
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Interesting results, I would think the offsets would have fallen in the six percent category, but it could come back in line with another tone wheel if the computer sees similar rotation for normal operation. Nothing to lose at this point except some steel and labor. My $.02
Paul B :boozing:
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Disappointing.
Though I see that the new rear tone wheel could be responsible for the too-low trip odometer value, I have one question that I didn't see answered: Was the trip odometer measurement essentially accurate with the original tone wheel?
Moto
Don’t know, but I will find out.
How are others’ instruments performing ?
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Interesting results, I would think the offsets would have fallen in the six percent category, but it could come back in line with another tone wheel if the computer sees similar rotation for normal operation. Nothing to lose at this point except some steel and labor. My $.02
Paul B :boozing:
Because the two tyres are different diameter but the slots are the same, the brain is at ease with different pulse rate from either end.
Seemingly the calibration does this, I did another this morning.
However, I’m thinking that with a successful calibration that it now has, the braking reads less slots in one rear wheel rpm, so would therefore think the wheel has only done 94% of the distance down the road that it actually has, that’s what has reduced the speedo reading back to correctness, but the down side is the odometer reading goes with it.
If speed = distance/time then I guess what we are seeing is that an alteration in indicated speed with time as a constant, distance must vary with speed...(unfortunately).
It’s going to need the 48 slot wheel in the back to get the odometer correct I think.
Leaving the 45 in the back and adding a 45 to the front will likely achieve nothing that an on board re calibration cannot accomplish.
Bum...!
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Disappointing.
Though I see that the new rear tone wheel could be responsible for the too-low trip odometer value, I have one question that I didn't see answered: Was the trip odometer measurement essentially accurate with the original tone wheel?
Moto
I remember doing a 100 k run against the GPS and from memory was about 1.5% out with standard tone wheel.
123.5 GPS equaled 122.0 indicated on trip meter.
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Ah, I forgot to mention that. If you adjust the number of pulses for the Speedo by 6%, then the odometer will read 6% less. There's only one source for the signal so you have to choose what's more important to you. Speedo accuracy or odometer accuracy.
From the factory, the odometer is usually quite accurate, but the Speedo intentionally reads too high. Trouble is, they depend on the same input. (Assuming the V85 works the same as the 5AM ECU)
Just sayin'. ;-)
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Just sayin'. ;-)
You could not possibly have been more correct.. :bow:
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My money says gear change indicator is reading the front tone ring and speedometer is reading the rear tone ring. My "guess" is that the new tone ring will get the inputs back within spec.
Or, it could be an error totally unrelated to the new tone ring! LOL! Wouldn't that be funny.
Rocker, if that was true and I really hope it is, why has the alteration of the rear ring introduced the anomaly ?
The odo was acceptably good before this debacle. What is your reasoning to lead you to think this ?
How about if I start the bike, put it in gear on the centrestand..(yes I know but not for long), and see if the odometer begins to count kilometres.
Or conversely to reduce the chance of re lighting an old thread, rock the front wheel off the ground, and spin the front wheel with my drill and check for odometer function ?
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Rocker, if that was true and I really hope it is, why has the alteration of the rear ring introduced the anomaly ?
The odo was acceptably good before this debacle. What is your reasoning to lead you to think this ?
How about if I start the bike, put it in gear on the centrestand..(yes I know but not for long), and see if the odometer begins to count kilometres.
Or conversely to reduce the chance of re lighting an old thread, rock the front wheel off the ground, and spin the front wheel with my drill and check for odometer function ?
You know that the rear ring gives the signal for speedo and odometer (because your new one has altered both). Speed plus engine rpm is all that is required for the gear indicator calculation. Why would Guzzi add complexity with a second speed input from the front wheel? That wouldn't make sense.
The purpose of the front ring will just be to establish if there is a sudden change in rotation speed between front and rear wheels to enable the ABS.
If making a new ring for the front fixes your gear indicator, I wouldn't be more surprised if I woke up tomorrow with my head sewn to the carpet (yes, I watched Christmas Vacation again!) :grin:
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Guzzi
That wouldn't make sense.
'nuff said... :grin:
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Rocker, if that was true and I really hope it is, why has the alteration of the rear ring introduced the anomaly ?
The odo was acceptably good before this debacle. What is your reasoning to lead you to think this ?
How about if I start the bike, put it in gear on the centrestand..(yes I know but not for long), and see if the odometer begins to count kilometres.
Or conversely to reduce the chance of re lighting an old thread, rock the front wheel off the ground, and spin the front wheel with my drill and check for odometer function ?
I don't guess I have a logical reason for thinking this. And, to be honest I was way off with what the new rear tone ring would accomplish.
Please be careful, if running the bike on the centerstand. Probably best to just ride it! :bike-037:
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I don't guess I have a logical reason for thinking this. And, to be honest I was way off with what the new rear tone ring would accomplish.
Please be careful, if running the bike on the centerstand. Probably best to just ride it! :bike-037:
Yeah mate..
It would be diabolically foolish to keep going down a dead end track, even on a V85...!
I will spin the front with my drill and see if the k’s start to add.
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Started the bike on the stand and allowed it to idle in gear.
Odometer started adding k’s with (obviously) stationary front wheel.
I’m rooted
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When you add the 6% under-reading change (due to the new encoding wheel) to the 1.5% existing under-reading of the ODO, you are pretty close to the 8% you measured.
Where I fitted the Healtech speedo healer to my previous ride, the ODO was over-reading by ~4% so when I corrected it with the -8%, it under-read by ~4% which was tolerable. 8% under probably isn't.
I suggest you find a local mate who's an Arduino nerd and get him to build an electronic solution. That's if the speedo still worries you....
Gonzo
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When you add the 6% under-reading change (due to the new encoding wheel) to the 1.5% existing under-reading of the ODO, you are pretty close to the 8% you measured.
Where I fitted the Healtech speedo healer to my previous ride, the ODO was over-reading by ~4% so when I corrected it with the -8%, it under-read by ~4% which was tolerable. 8% under probably isn't.
I suggest you find a local mate who's an Arduino nerd and get him to build an electronic solution. That's if the speedo still worries you....
Gonzo
Thanx Gonz, you are correct...
I think I will wait for Beetle. He will have a quiet word to the diodes and they will fall into line, if he can’t do it then I’ll not feel too bad that it was beyond me..
It was fun though..!
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While your waiting for Beetle, swap the tone wheel front to back, go for a ride and see what you get. It may give you more clues to the solution.
Paul B :boozing:
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While your waiting for Beetle, swap the tone wheel front to back, go for a ride and see what you get. It may give you more clues to the solution.
Paul B :boozing:
They’re different mate..Won’t fit.
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And so...
It was with a heavy heart and a slightly red face that our intrepid modifier undid the bolts and threw the useless tone wheel in the bin and strode toward the next exciting adventure, full of hilarious hijinx...
(https://i.ibb.co/3dvddrF/A347-B0-AC-FA4-A-45-BA-8-ADE-C19-EBE41-DF01.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3dvddrF)
Sorry to lower the tone.... :rolleyes: :embarrassed:
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Hey, with 253 replies you did well keeping us entertained.
Thanks.
Gonzo
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It was good fun Gonz.
What I did was successful, but the tip about the odometer was the one I should have heeded.
Anyway...
I went out today with the original tone wheel back in and checked the odometer. It was only 1% off give or take so that’s a bonus. Also the ‘85 used 10 litres for 240 k, so 4.16 l/100 k
That doesn’t even sound right to me but that’s what it took and I did fill it right up...!
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Well it was a noble effort...all credit to you ingenuity and persistence....have a good New Year !
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Well it was a noble effort...all credit to you ingenuity and persistence....have a good New Year !
Thanks mate..The speedo worked beautifully.
All in fun...
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Just before I lower this thread into a hole and start shovelling dirt on top...
Does the signal split to the speedo/odometer by a separate wire or more likely an electronic piece of wizardry ?
I ask because if the split in the signal was in the wiring, I could take the odometer signal from the front tone wheel and by making a new one with the requisite slots, bring the odometer back into line without buggering up the speedo.
I could then do a re calibration to fix the expected ABS/TC anomaly... :popcorn:
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Nope. The signal is sent to the ECU from the ABS controller. The ECU talks to the dash via CAN bus.
The only way would be to intercept the signal to ECU and interfere with it, or find the correction factor in the map and modify it.
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Nope. The signal is sent to the ECU from the ABS controller. The ECU talks to the dash via CAN bus.
The only way would be to intercept the signal to ECU and interfere with it, or find the correction factor in the map and modify it.
Utterly beyond me.. :sad:
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Nope. The signal is sent to the ECU from the ABS controller. The ECU talks to the dash via CAN bus.
The only way would be to intercept the signal to ECU and interfere with it, or find the correction factor in the map and modify it.
And, of course, if you were able to do either of those things there is still the probability that changing the speed readout by massaging the CAN speed signal or ECU map factor will change the odometer at the same time!
Gonzo
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I followed this thread with interest, you did your best to resolve the error.
My new V7iii has a similar error, it must be in the software ECU or Dash, we should be demanding that Piaggio fix it.
To account for changes in the tire sizes it would be easy enough to have a fudge factor the owner could change.
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I followed this thread with interest, you did your best to resolve the error.
My new V7iii has a similar error, it must be in the software ECU or Dash, we should be demanding that Piaggio fix it.
To account for changes in the tire sizes it would be easy enough to have a fudge factor the owner could change.
The speedo correction factor can be modified for the MIUG3. Knock yourself out.
Making demands on Piaggio would be fruitless. I think you'll find that the speedo error is well within Govt mandated specs in all countries.
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I followed this thread with interest, you did your best to resolve the error.
My new V7iii has a similar error, it must be in the software ECU or Dash, we should be demanding that Piaggio fix it.
To account for changes in the tire sizes it would be easy enough to have a fudge factor the owner could change.
Well they sort of have mate..
When I installed the new tone wheel, I introduced a 6% error into the system. It was 6.5% out @ 100 k and with the modification, it was 1%.
That means the on board re calibration function could handle 5.5% at least which is more than that required for a new tyre, but we all know what that did to the gear selector indicator and the odometer...(I was clearly warned).
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(https://i.ibb.co/ysGkFnt/D3387105-60-E2-4-D62-AD6-B-AD392-A26-E80-C.png) (https://ibb.co/ysGkFnt)
I think you'll find that the speedo error is well within Govt mandated specs in all countries.
Well..
I cannot comment on Lithuania or Uzbekistan, but in Australia...?
They shat it in..
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The ADRules are BS, I'm sure most other countries have something similar thought.
In 1988 most speedometers worked by a magnet spinning around dragging a pointer, in this day and age speedometers are digital either with a digital display or analog pointer and stepper motor there is no reason to be out by 1% let alone 10$
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I don't understand the big deal. I tend to cruise at around 10% over on the speedo, knowing that it reading fast, and so I can speed in safety. Most of the police cars will just flash their headlights or beacons when they consider I'm getting too close to their acceptable tolerance. Radar detectors (legal in NZ) help with getting too carried away.
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I don't understand the big deal. I tend to cruise at around 10% over on the speedo, knowing that it reading fast, and so I can speed in safety. Most of the police cars will just flash their headlights or beacons when they consider I'm getting too close to their acceptable tolerance. Radar detectors (legal in NZ) help with getting too carried away.
The big deal is...
I WANT IT CORRECT...!
I don’t want to have to make on board re calculations that vary between 100 k’s and 50 k’s and all the other anecdotal stories and conventional wisdom.
I just want it right...Please.
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I totally get that...that's why I got the sygma...looks out of place even though it is slightly discreet...but at least i know exactly how fast i'm going or not ! And it was only 40 euro which is the guzzi content....
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So I might have missed this but...…..
How do you know your GPS is all that accurate.
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https://www.gps.gov/systems/gps/performance/accuracy/
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So I might have missed this but...…..
How do you know your GPS is all that accurate.
I was banking on the assumption that it knows it’s position within 15 metres, which is the distance it travels before a recalculation, if I miss/ignore a command.
And..
The on board time clock is spot on.
So the calculation of distance/time (velocity), must carry the same accuracy as the position... :popcorn:
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I'm sorry to rain on your parade but I find that a poor analogy as your on the ground riding your moto and in the air its a safety issue of the highest order. (airspeed)
Yes I know a guy that is in the custom Harley business that tells me that it works well, but I might add this is hearsay and I have no direct experience.
Cheers
A bit of an exercise in semantics (by me), but that was my point Kirb..
IF.... your pitot was wrongly mounted and it was important to YOU to have a correct ASI (I do understand the importance), my thought was...
In an attempt to get a correct reading, would you alter the pitot, or alter the instrument ?
It’s not about WOULD you change the reading to make it correct, it’s about HOW would you make it correct..
Anyone else’s opinion on how worthwhile it is/was, is not the point.
The fact that your life hinges on one (aircraft) and your personal satisfaction hinges on the other (bike) was not lost on me, but debating whether it was a worthwhile pursuit in someone else’s estimation, was not the thrust of the post.
A similar parallel could be drawn by looking at Beetle’s maps.
I could say..
“Jeez, why bother going to all that trouble to build a new map to make the bike run better, mine goes alright..”
I don’t want it allright...
I just want it .....right...
ps.
I don’t think “semantics” was the right word at the top of the post..
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All due respect...
Ha!
This reminds me of the story of the princess and the pea!
But I gotta say there are many other things pertaining to the operation of the motorbike that are far more important than dead accurate speed, such as safety items.
Your are all rapped up in something that is a common occurrence in all modern motos that I've operated and most of us just make the mental calculation and press on. Its an electronic problem in most cases and can be corrected buy AI?,(oops), easy as that.
There must be marketable opportunities in this terrible malady as someone, (more than one company), has developed a easy fix so your maybe not alone in your quest.
A little 0 and 1 manipulation can correct your problem in short order...but it'll cost you $$$ (less than $100 US.)
In this thread on page 7 is one answer to your nagging problem, why do it the hard way?? You can dial it up and take a video of some impressive speeds and post it for bragging rights!
Obvious from the many comments here that your valiant efforts to slay the "speedometer error dragon" don't go unnoticed.
BRAVO!
BTW don't mess w/ my A/S....
:-)
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But I gotta say there are many other things pertaining to the operation of the motorbike that are far more important than dead accurate speed, such as safety items.
Well Kirby, it’s like this.
There’s a bloke who lives not far from me who could wipe the floor with you (and me), on matters of electronic manipulation and buggerising around with 0’s & 1’s.
He says it’s not as easy as wiping your own arse, but he thinks it MAY be possible. So, much loved and revered as you are, I’m putting my trust in his words.
And you don’t “gotta say” anything really, but on the subject of “more important things”, well they have been checked and deemed ok.
Also the word is “you’re” not “your”...
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Quite right!
Thanks for the grammar/syntax lesson, absolutely know excuse for that....
You're a prince!
:-)
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This has been an interesting thread to follow. The speedo on my bike is darn accurate but in certain light condition impossible to see. I haven't checked the odometer. I am going to do that as soon as we have a decent enough day to ride a few miles when I can break loose from other duties.
kk
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This has been an interesting thread to follow. The speedo on my bike is darn accurate but in certain light condition impossible to see. I haven't checked the odometer. I am going to do that as soon as we have a decent enough day to ride a few miles when I can break loose from other duties.
kk
If it’s a V85, your odometer is 1.2% out.
Another recalibration might do the job, but that’s good enough for me.
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know
?
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If it’s a V85, your odometer is 1.2% out.
Another recalibration might do the job, but that’s good enough for me.
Audace
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Audace
Wow !
A fabulous bike, you’ve no excuse. You live in California and you own a great bike...
Out you go now, the house will be there when you get back... :drool: :bike-037:
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Wow !
A fabulous bike, you’ve no excuse. You live in California and you own a great bike...
Out you go now, the house will be there when you get back... :drool: :bike-037:
Even though I/live in Calif it is not all sunshine and beaches. The roads were just cleared of all the snow yesterday and they are just now kind of drying out. I did errands today on my bike and it is now filthy. Small price to pay for a bit of riding. The roads are still too snowy out of town to go too far. :sad:
kk
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Hey..just thought.
Way back when I tried (unsuccessfully) to fix the speedo error, I had to admit defeat for two reasons.
#1
The gear indicator became innaccurate in 5th and 6th as predicted.
#2
Although I fixed the 7% error in the speedo, it pushed the error into the odometer.
But all may not be lost.
It occurred to me today while I was out on the V85 that in Guzzidiag, there is a parameter that specifies the circumference of the rear wheel, which I wonder whether it is adjustable in Guzzi writer. Now thinking a bit, I’m surmising that the brain only knows how far the bike has travelled by knowing how many revs the wheel has done (tone wheel) x the distance around the perimeter (circumference).
So if I re fitted the new tone wheel that I made which will bring the speedometer back by 7%, that will introduce the error back into the odometer to the tune of 7%.
But..
If I was to get into Guzzidiag and increase the circumference figure by 7%, would the brain then compute that as an increase of 7% in distance travelled for a given number of revolutions and thereby bring the odometer back into line, without buggering up the pulse frequency (speedo reading..).
I would be left with the gear indicator issue, but I could live with that easier than a faulty speedo.
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Bump for Wayne Orwig.
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Hey Vagrant !
Reducing the diameter by that amount may be achievable by performing an on board re calibration.
It will not have a bearing on the speedometer etc. as I understand it, because that data is pulled from th3 rear tone wheel.
Also if you are thinking of changing your front wheel as a lowering measure, you can achieve the same by raising the forks in the clamps and winding pre load off your rear shock.
I got mine down by 20 cm.
I think it shows in this shot.
(https://i.ibb.co/PjtLHDg/C21-DF327-47-C5-4609-AD39-47-B6-FB14-C773.png) (https://ibb.co/PjtLHDg)
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I've got my forks dropped to the third line on the top of the tubes. About 1/2". The rear is on the lowest pre-load and the seat rubbers are removed. I can live with it this way, but I considered a new 850 V7 to replace my old EV I keep in Az. But by the time you add 3 bags, mounts, fork springs, and decent shocks I might as well buy another V85 and have the full power too because the loaded V7 gets right to the price of the fully equipped V85 in the states. FYI, 27 1/2" inseam and 73 years old.
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I've got my forks dropped to the third line on the top of the tubes. About 1/2". The rear is on the lowest pre-load and the seat rubbers are removed. I can live with it this way, but I considered a new 850 V7 to replace my old EV I keep in Az. But by the time you add 3 bags, mounts, fork springs, and decent shocks I might as well buy another V85 and have the full power too because the loaded V7 gets right to the price of the fully equipped V85 in the states. FYI, 27 1/2" inseam and 73 years old.
Yes ok.
Mine has an Ohlins shock which I can get the rear down to required height. In the shot I posted, you can see the difference in distance from the top of the reflector on the front fork, to the bottom of the lower clamp.
It shows how far the forks are raised and the angle of the swingarm to gearbox centreline on mine is noticeably straighter than the standard one.
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Huzo, I forget if I ever told you, but you can get a little more with the Ohlins. I took off one of the two retaining nuts from the spring tension and tapped in for a set screw in the remaining one. Although this only affects the preload with about 1/4", it did give me a little more sag and it was just right. It is a possibility.
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Huzo, I forget if I ever told you, but you can get a little more with the Ohlins. I took off one of the two retaining nuts from the spring tension and tapped in for a set screw in the remaining one. Although this only affects the preload with about 1/4", it did give me a little more sag and it was just right. It is a possibility.
Yeah you did Trialsman.
I did not think of it myself, but it’s a good idea.
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Did you have to cut the side stand with that much drop?
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Did you have to cut the side stand with that much drop?
Yes I did a bit.
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I dropped mine and cut the sidestand as well. No problem, and you can add an oversized foot for soft surfaces with very little work as a bonus.
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I dropped mine and cut the sidestand as well. No problem, and you can add an oversized foot for soft surfaces with very little work as a bonus.
Yep.
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It never worried me that my Griso wasn't a 1400. I was happy to be a guinea pig. Having said that, I couldn't go back to a 1200. The grunt is intoxicating.
How much “grunt” does a Guinea pig actually produce…?
(An old thread, but I simply could not help myself…)
But..
After reading through the whole thing again, I’m wondering if I’ll churn out a new front tone wheel just for the fun of it and throw it in the ‘85.
I honestly cannot be bothered dragging up the dusty old remnants of my meagre knowlege, trying to reason whether a new front tone wheel will bring things back, but I DO know I can build one.
I think I might do it just to close the book on the whole saga.
A new front ring will bring the two wheels back into line relative to each other and if the rpm gets it’s information from these (which I doubt), I may just get away with it all.
I cannot see how I’ll succeed, but building one and fitting them both will answer all questions.
I may end up not knowing exactly WHY it works, I’ll just know that it does.
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from the factory my V7III read about 10kmph faster than GPS
I installed a larger back tire which bought it very close (it's the rear sensor that the speedo uses).
Roy
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On my '25 V85TT the speedometer is 5mph pessiimistic according to GPS so I keep that in mind when setting cruise control.
Of course, people from Tejas and Arizona don't believe our speed laws apply to them so I don't worry to much about accurate speed as they are blasting along 80-90mph and thus hopefully lighting up the highway patrol radars while I save fuel and aggrravation at 65mph.
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from the factory my V7III read about 10kmph faster than GPS
I installed a larger back tire which bought it very close (it's the rear sensor that the speedo uses).
Roy
If you’re telling me that it was 10 k’s inaccurate at 100 kph Roy, then (clearly) that’s 10%
So you would have needed to increase your circumference (and therefore diameter) by 10%
If your rear original tyre outside diameter was 17+3+3=23”, then you’d have needed to increase your radius by 1.15”
Is that something like the change you made ?
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Not in bloody Australia you wouldn’t..
Speed cameras get you for 3 k over @ $200 a pop.
Put the needle on 60 kph. You'll be travelling 54 kph. They don't give tickets for traveling under the speed limit, do they?
I don't know why this topic keeps coming up. 10% has been the industry standard for decades. The speedometers read up to 10% faster than actual by design and legislation.
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I know why it’s got 10% error built in, but I just don’t like decisions made for me for “my own good…”
Also it may very well be the industry standard, but the industry doesn’t own my bike, I do. If I have to accept something less than I want then I will, but if I can fix it then I’ll do what I can.
So many guys here fiddle around with fairing screens, seat heights, exhaust systems etc… so they can individualise their bike to their own requirements.
I don’t want mediocrity because someone else imposes it on me.
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I know why it’s got 10% error built in, but I just don’t like decisions made for me for “my own good…”
Also it may very well be the industry standard, but the industry doesn’t own my bike, I do. If I have to accept something less than I want then I will, but if I can fix it then I’ll do what I can.
So many guys here fiddle around with fairing screens, seat heights, exhaust systems etc… so they can individualise their bike to their own requirements.
I don’t want mediocrity because someone else imposes it on me.
One would think, in this world of electronics on bikes, that some plug in computer program could fix/adjust the built-in speedo error.
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One would think, in this world of electronics on bikes, that some plug in computer program could fix/adjust the built-in speedo error.
There’s a plug thing you can get, but I don’t want it.
I wanted to fix the cause, not the symptom.
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Bump
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What I’m pondering is..
The sensor that reads wheel rpm gets its data from the tone wheel providing pulse signals up the wire.
The ABS and TC cleverly do their work by comparing differing front/rear wheel rpm.
If I made two more tone wheels with a 6% different number of slots than the standard ones and fitted them front and rear, the ABS and TC would be happy because the wheel rpm’s would be correct compared to each other, but the speedometer would be getting 6% less pulses at a true 100 kph than is currently the case.
Instead of the tone wheel thinking it was at 106 k’s, it’d think 100 k’s.
Very clever!
Go for it and show pictures!
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I followed that thread closely because the inaccuracy of my furrin motorcycles was driving me nuts. I was surprised to find that the mileage recorded is pretty close to correct but the speed is way off. I am tired of government nannyism. My wife's Wagoneer has a warning bell that chimes when the speed limit is exceeded by 3 mph. It is kind of a good thing but annoying. Fortunately it can be turned off. My wife likes it as she can have a heavy foot, gotta keep that 6.4 Hemi under control. :thumb:
kk
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A link to the similar thread re V7 speedo correction.
https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=123255.0
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53, 64, 85, 106, 127 km/Hr indicated gives true 50, 60, 80, 100, 120. It does limits here in Ireland. Obviously there's a little rounding but well within limits that would get you noticed.