V85 Speedometer inaccuracy

[Kiwi_Roy]

Its looking great Even if it doesn't work the process of thinking it through and manufacturing has been a worthy exercise.
When you first raised the idea of making a new tone wheel I thought about how I might do it.
I don't have a lathe so I would have approached the problem differently.
With my drawing program I would draw out the tone wheel I'm assuming it has a tool for dividing a circle.
Then print it out on my laser printer using transfer paper.
Iron the transfer paper onto a thin steel plate, the ink in a standard laser printer cartridge is actually ground up plastic, it fuses onto the paper and will act as a crude etch resist.
Ironing with a regular iron on cotton setting transfers the image from paper to metal.
Etch the plate using Feric Chloride, it will etch away any metal not protected by the printer ink, an etch resist pen can be used to touch up any exposed spots.
I make copper printed circuits this way, my $100 laser printer will even scale and print backwards to get text as a mirror image.
It wouldn't be as neat as yours though and probably take me longer.

[Huzo]

That’s also quite ingenious.
I’m not being disingenuous.
There’s no shortage of cunning stunts around here..

[Huzo]

Ok.
Got the bolts and did this.


Then added this


Started it, let the clutch out and the speedo did this


When the temperature cools down a bit, I’ll put the axle nut on, and go for a ride to see what the next exciting episode holds.
Maybe some calibration action if I’m lucky..

[Huzo]

What model and tire sizes do you have?

Sorry mate, I think I forgot to answer your post.
Rosso Vulcano and I’m not sure of the size.
Too hot to go out and check.

[oldbike54]

 Interesting , wonder what a small run of these cut on a water jet would cost ?

 Dusty

[Huzo]

Interesting , wonder what a small run of these cut on a water jet would cost ?

 Dusty

I got a quote at the start and about $500 for two.
That was when I thought they were both the same, so given that each is a one off, the price probably would have been more. Most of the money is in the set up as all would probably have guessed.
That would have been ok, but I sort of wanted to do it myself and if it all went badly, I could toss it in the bin and I’ve lost very little Dusty.
Really though, I thought $500 was pretty good, even if it went up from there.

[Huzo]

Well..
The temperature dropped enough for a jaunt. Report is the speedo is digitally perfect up to 80 kph and 1 kph at 120 kph.



I did the calibration and it worked just like it said right here on T.V....!
Selected calibration in the menu and rode at 30 kph and after 10 seconds it said calibration complete.
No ABS or TC warnings.
The yellow light is the low fuel warning.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Yeh
Let me be the first to congratulate you

[Frenchfrog]

Congratulations my Friend !!!!!!

[Huzo]

Thank you guys I appreciate it..
I will do a better shot next chance.
BTW.. The odometer checked out very well also, but it was only a small run of 20 k’s. I’ll do a 200 k or so test.
Funny thing is..
The gear indicator only reads up to “5”, even when you’re in 6th..
When going up through the gears, the digital indicator is slow to register the new selected ratio and will not go above a 5 th gear indication.
Changing back down through the ‘box, the change from 6th to 5th changes nothing on the panel, then the  indications are ok from there.
Hmmm.....
I think I’ll do another calibration run and then leave well alone.
I have an Agostini Y pipe arriving soon and I’m doing a set of stainless headers to compliment it. Maybe titanium but I think stainless..

[Old Jock]

Congratulations Peter

I nearly posted earlier when I seen the gear indication on your first test with the dash and wondered if it would be affected.

Aftermarket gear indicators use the speed and RPM pickups to deterime the gear (as you know) and I'd have thought that the rear wheel would be used in preference to the front as it doesn't turn or get raised by a wheelie or even when under hard acceleration on an undualting surface.

I've read some smarter ECUs on Japanese bikes in particular do it some other way (no idea how) and Ducati actually used a sensor reading position of the selector drum in the gearbox on some of it's race bikes.

John

[Huzo]

Congratulations Peter

I nearly posted earlier when I seen the gear indication on your first test with the dash and wondered if it would be affected.

Aftermarket gear indicators use the speed and RPM pickups to deterime the gear (as you know) and I'd have thought that the rear wheel would be used in preference to the front as it doesn't turn or get raised by a wheelie or even when under hard acceleration on an undualting surface.

I've read some smarter ECUs on Japanese bikes in particular do it some other way (no idea how) and Ducati actually used a sensor reading position of the selector drum in the gearbox on some of it's race bikes.

John

That’s got the smell of truth about it John..
I did not know that gear position indication was a function of speed/rpm but it really makes sense at some level to me.
That is a bit over my head, it’s electronics..
I’m going to move onto my new stainless header mod and eventually do a new front tone wheel.

[Trialsman]

Looks like all the hard work paid off Peter.  Good job.

[Old Jock]

That’s got the smell of truth about it John..
I did not know that gear position was a function of speed/rpm but it really makes sense at some level to me.
That is a bit over my head, it’s electronics..
I’m going to move onto my new stainless header mod and eventually do a new front tone wheel.

Well it's just best guess in my case but it does seem probable and it would be how much of a window was allowed in the ratio and the closeness between ratios for given gears. I wonder about the traction control and ABS too as discussed, earlier. In the current state the rear wheel will be creating a lower frequency than the front.

I have no clue, if it would do anything,  you'd need to know the trigger points ASS-uming it's a frequency differential that triggers either system. It could be reliant on rate of change, if that was the case then it would still work as before (I think) as both back and front frequencies although different would be constant relative to each other.

It's an interesting project and gives everybody some insight into how these things work. Personally if it had annoyed me that much I'd have went down the Arduino route or the like to electronically alter the signals as I think that would have been cheaper and easier (for me anyway, I don't have a lathe but I do have a soldering iron).
 
John

[rocker59]

  eventually do a new front tone wheel.

I'll bet that will cure your gear change indicator problem.

I'm pleasantly surprised that the speed indication came out as expected. 

Good job!

[RinkRat II]

       Congrats Huzo!!
        It will be interesting if all falls back in line when the other tone wheel is installed.  Now mass production @19.95,  free shipping and yer a bazillionaire
             You too can become famous like the "shift spring" boys!
         Paul B

[Xlratr]

Well done. I was sure it would work but I forgot that the V85 has a gear indicator. The ECU just looks at road speed and rpm and calculates what gear you're in. Pretty simple. But difficult to adjust :-(

[Huzo]

Well it's just best guess in my case but it does seem probable and it would be how much of a window was allowed in the ratio and the closeness between ratios for given gears. I wonder about the traction control and ABS too as discussed, earlier. In the current state the rear wheel will be creating a lower frequency than the front.

I have no clue, if it would do anything,  you'd need to know the trigger points ASS-uming it's a frequency differential that triggers either system. It could be reliant on rate of change, if that was the case then it would still work as before (I think) as both back and front frequencies although different would be constant relative to each other.

It's an interesting project and gives everybody some insight into how these things work. Personally if it had annoyed me that much I'd have went down the Arduino route or the like to electronically alter the signals as I think that would have been cheaper and easier (for me anyway, I don't have a lathe but I do have a soldering iron).
 
John

It would always have had a different frequency John, because the slot numbers were the same but the wheel diameters are different.
I think the brain needs to see a different frequency, it’s a target difference if you will.
Has anyone tried the black box ?
I may yet produce a front one. ( tone wheel)

[kirby1923]

To each his own but...
I can't understand the importance of having a dead accurate speedo as long as you know the error you can mentally compensate but that's just me.

Here is a site that sell s a electronic gismo that can do the same thing, plug a play. Its was designed for those who make significant changes in their gearing as is relatively easy with the chain  drive

https sprocketcenter.com

speedo-DRD

SKU:  SpeedoDRD


 $72.00
 
cheers,

:-)




The smallest electronic speedometer calibration device in the world !!! Easier to setup than any other device on the market. Simple plug-in installation for many vehicles using factory OEM connectors.

 - Simple plug-in installation using factory OEM connectors, no splicing
 - Saves max speed, which can be recalled to your stock speedometer gauge
 - Weather-proof design to protect against the elements
 - 3 year product replacement warranty
 - Made in the USA

[Huzo]

To each his own but...
I can't understand the importance of having a dead accurate speedo as long as you know the error you can mentally compensate but that's just me.

Here is a site that sell s a electronic gismo that can do the same thing, plug a play. Its was designed for those who make significant changes in their gearing as is relatively easy with the chain  drive

https sprocketcenter.com

speedo-DRD

SKU:  SpeedoDRD


 $72.00
 
cheers,

:-)




The smallest electronic speedometer calibration device in the world !!! Easier to setup than any other device on the market. Simple plug-in installation for many vehicles using factory OEM connectors.

 - Simple plug-in installation using factory OEM connectors, no splicing
 - Saves max speed, which can be recalled to your stock speedometer gauge
 - Weather-proof design to protect against the elements
 - 3 year product replacement warranty
 - Made in the USA

If the pitot was wrongly mounted on your plane, would you fix the pitot or put a new face on the ASI ?
Also
Has anyone bought one of these boxes ?

[Old Jock]

It would always have had a different frequency John, because the slot numbers were the same but the wheel diameters are different.
I think the brain needs to see a different frequency, it’s a target difference if you will.
Has anyone tried the black box ?
I may yet produce a front one.

Of course Peter, my mistake, I could go on to speculate other scenarios but what's the point, let's see what happens

I'll bet that will cure your gear change indicator problem.

Mmm I'm not trying to start a fight just asking a question Rocker, why do you think that?

I hope it does but can't think why

John

[kirby1923]

If the pitot was wrongly mounted on your plane, would you fix the pitot or put a new face on the ASI ?
Also
Has anyone bought one of these boxes ?

I'm sorry to rain on your parade but I find that a poor analogy as your on the ground riding your moto and in the air its a safety issue of the highest order. (airspeed)

Yes I know a guy that is in the custom Harley business that tells me that it works well, but I might add this is hearsay and I have no direct experience.

Cheers

[rocker59]

I hope it does but can't think why

John

My money says gear change indicator is reading the front tone ring and speedometer is reading the rear tone ring.  My "guess" is that the new tone ring will get the inputs back within spec.

Or, it could be an error totally unrelated to the new tone ring!  LOL!  Wouldn't that be funny.

[kirby1923]

Curious!
Your saying that you have to be moving for the gear indicator to indicate what gear your in?? My K1200RS would tell me in the parking lot standing still what gear I was in.

:-)?

[Kiwi Dave]

And so do some other Guzzi models, notably the CARC models.

The V85 has gone for the cheaper option, but it does tell you when you've found neutral, even when you've stopped.  When moving, the mathematics take a little time to determine the gear selected, but it does happen.

[Huzo]

I'm sorry to rain on your parade but I find that a poor analogy as your on the ground riding your moto and in the air its a safety issue of the highest order. (airspeed)

Yes I know a guy that is in the custom Harley business that tells me that it works well, but I might add this is hearsay and I have no direct experience.

Cheers

Yes I do understand the airspeed thing and all..
But I want the problem fixed, not the symptom.

[Huzo]

I don’t recall suggesting that the bike has to be moving to indicate a gear selection.
If y’all have a look at the bottom shot in post #184, you’ll see that with the bike on the centrestand and the rear wheel turning, the gear indicator correctly shows 1st gear.
In this case the bike knows it’s stationary because the front wheel is still.
Oddly though, why does the TC allow this condition, how does it know that I’m not doing a burnout in the grass and prevent me ?
I tried to spin the rear wheel the other day in the grass and was understandably prevented by the TC.

[Huzo]

Just for the record and to make it easier to find you later, is there anyone out there that categorically agrees with me...?

Xlratr..
Did you happen to read this post ?

[Huzo]

Well done. I was sure it would work

?

[RinkRat II]

  Question, If it's on the centerstand, key on, not running and as you rotate the rear wheel by hand and run up through the gears does the indicator show properly?

     Paul B