Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: jonnirado on July 03, 2020, 02:56:21 PM
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I apologize in advance for the length, there's a lot going on here—
I'm trying to ask around on behalf of my father, who is having a rough time with his new V85TT. As a bit of a background, he bought the bike towards the end of April and while trailering the bike home from the dealership, the left hand protector bolt and handlebar weight came off. Then a few hundred miles later, the starter switch housing broke. Little things, not a huge deal, but kind of annoying. After about a month and with 1700 miles on the bike, while on a trip, it started making a horrible noise. He got it limped to a parking lot, had that vacation ruined, and I went and picked him up and we hauled the bike back to the dealership.
Initially he was told “something” had come loose in the clutch (still not sure what) and that somehow also caused the starter to fail. While there, they discovered a crack in the driveshaft housing. The dealership initially started going down the road of rider abuse to put the blame on my father, but saw from the motorcycle the problems were not rider error and there were no signs of abuse.
As an aside, my father has been riding for over 30 years and has owned multiple motorcycles. This one was the first new bike he has ever bought and it is his baby. He was not out rallying the bike and I know because I've done a lot of riding with him. He's not so young anymore and has no desire to beat himself or the bike up.
After 5+ weeks of waiting, the dealership finally got parts in, put everything back together, and the bike was still making the noise. They then thought it might be the transmission, so they drained the oil from the trans and found it only had 25cc of oil (apparently there should be somewhere around 750cc). The dealer said there was no evidence of any oil leaking out anywhere. My dad keeps it parked on a cement floor in his shop and there have been no oil spots there.
The dealership is now saying Moto Guzzi will not cover the transmission under warranty because “if it had that little oil it should have failed sooner.” The dealer already admitted to not checking the transmission oil level on initial bike setup. The transmission is not something easily accessible for service—it's not like my dad somehow drained the transmission oil when changing the engine oil and then did not fill it back up. The manual even states the transmission should be serviced by the dealer. There was no reason for him to even be in the transmission, especially with that low of miles. They are implying that at some point, for no reason, he drained the transmission of oil, didn't fill it back up, and then kept riding. They have not specified how many miles it should have taken for a problem to crop up when running with low oil, just that they won't cover the repair because it should have been fewer.
They are also now saying that the transmission failure caused the clutch and starter issue as part of a “chain reaction.” They still haven't said how that would work, and before they were willing to acknowledge defects in the bike, which tells me they did not (and do not) know what the actual problem was, they just found a convenient way to pin it on the customer.
The point of this long story is the dealership says the warranty won't apply and a new transmission is $2000 + labor costs. They have exonerated my father of wrongdoing, but said Moto Guzzi still declined to cover the fix. So, with less than 2000 miles on the bike, and more time in the shop than on the road, he has to shell out that kind of money to get his bike back, with no guarantee the final drive or engine won't grenade in another 2000 miles and he'll be right back in the same spot.
My question for you guys is, does anyone have any connections at Moto Guzzi? The dealership has thus far not provided any contact information for their Moto Guzzi rep. He would like to go to someone at MG directly instead of working through the dealer, who hasn't been very helpful thus far. If any of you people know anyone at MG, or anywhere else, who might be able to do something, that would be greatly appreciated. The lemon law doesn't apply to motorcycles in his state and he will be talking to a lawyer next week about a breach of warranty claim, but that would be a stretch. The best option would be to work it out with the manufacture, but he doesn't know who to contact.
If you made it this far, thank you so much for reading. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated, and take this as a caveat emptor if you are considering a V85TT.
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Unless I’m reading incorrectly, the service schedule says the first oil change in the gearbox is at 30,000 k.
The internals have probably not seen the light of day since Mandello.
If the box is not leaking and the level is not readily identifiable by the rider then he cannot be at fault...(officially).
The box was not filled at the factory and the dealer failed to identify it pre delivery, it has to be the dealer’s problem. Even if he throws his hands up and says “they should have filled it”, it does not absolve him of his obligation to check before sale, in the absence of new information I’d start there.
Since he has admitted he didn’t even look, I would ask why he thinks he is NOT at fault.
I changed all my oils at 1000 k and subsequent changes every 10,000 k...Always have, always will.
And bugger me...!
The butchers managed to replace a buggered clutch, so at some point the gearbox was out on the floor and they still didn’t bother to check...?
I would tear the dealer a new arse, but privately plan to get a new gearbox, install it myself and do my own servicing.
The amount that these butchers extort from you to “work on your bike” is criminal and if you do your own services, you’ll save enough to justify the cost of the gearbox.
The warranty isn’t worth a **** full of cold water anyway...
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sadly, your story is not unheard of in out community.. find a lawyer who thinks you have a good case instead of the one you have.
welcome to the forum too.
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Sorry to hear this. I agree with others...sadly it looks like a lawyer may be the best bet.
I also agree the dealer should have checked the level pre delivery.
Keep us posted on the developments.
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I would first reach out to Guzzi directly, give them a chance to fix this. If they don't help, do as others suggest.
https://www.motoguzzi.com/us_EN/customercare/contacts/
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Cheap anecdote:
I had a Jeep Patriot. A service light was going off about an evap leak. I thought it might be the intake manifold, so I replaced it. Didn’t resolve, light came back on. Took to the dealer. Dealer called a few days later, said that I need a new intake manifold, that the one in there was old and dirty. I said funny, because it was recently bought and installed 3 weeks ago. Surprised, they said a new intake manifold was still needed. They ordered a new manifold, and a week later, they said the Jeep was fixed. I got the vehicle back, and within 50 miles, the service light came back on. Took it back to the dealer again. A few days later, they called and said it’s fixed. Less than 50 miles later... you guessed it. Same light comes on.
...so I called Jeep of America and had a chat. They asked the dealer’s name, and said they’d look into it. That same day, I got a call back from the Jeep dealer, said they put in ANOTHER new intake, free of charge . Apparently they got a talking to from the uppers.
...but the issue persisted. One last time, I brought the Jeep in, told them they’re fixing it, and I’m not paying for anything. A day later I get a call from the MASTER mechanic, who told me it’s fixed. FOR REAL. I asked what the issue was, and he told me a wire wasn’t properly connecting in the sensor. He simply tightened it up. The vehicle ran fine ever since.
I’m not sure what the moral of the story is other than don’t be afraid to let them know you’re pissed.
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So how much did the dealer bite your old man for "pre delivery ".
Id mention that to the lawyer as well, obviously theres a bit of fraud happing if you are being billed and nothing has been done for the money.
Hes charged you, didnt do the job and theres been a failure due to the dealers action. Not your fault, his.
Do as suggested above, back it all up with the documentation you have, reciepts, invoices and emails, contact Guzzi USA, whom ever that is this week and lay it all out to them.
If that doesnt give the required result, lawyer up and have a letter sent to both the dealer and Guzzi USA.
Goodluck with it, its draining, annoying and frustrating but these pricks rely on making it hard to basically rob you of your consumer rights and your money.
Dont let them.
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I would get a good lawyer. One that is hungry. There is nothing wrong at all with sticking up for your rights as a customer.
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Lemon Law state?
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Lemon Law state?
Lawyer up.
Rich A
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Are you in the US? If yes, I'd go straight to lemon law and get your money back.
You don't want a bike that had the transmission rebuilt ... not on a new bike that cost so much and has such few miles ... and if it is on the dealer's dime (vs. MG) (since they messed up not checking it) then will the dealer put ALL new parts in? And how long would that take?
It is absurd that they would expect the new owner to spend the $$$$ to fix this.
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wow
there is just too much of this.
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Lemon Law state?
jonnirado wrote:
"The lemon law doesn't apply to motorcycles in his state'
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Does anyone know if the bikes come shipped from Italy full of fluids , or is that done at the dealer ? That will tell us who is responsible .
Dusty
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jonnirado wrote:
"The lemon law doesn't apply to motorcycles in his state'
What we don't know is if that state is one of the United States.
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Does anyone know if the bikes come shipped from Italy full of fluids , or is that done at the dealer ? That will tell us who is responsible .
Dusty
But it shouldn't matter to the guy that bought it.
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That's easy Dusty, whoever accepted the buyers hard earned money and gave them the keys to ride off excited on their brand new motorcycle.
Checking the oil levels (forks excepted) is part of pre delivery and of course common sense for the dealer as is running over the bike visually and in some cases doing a short road test so they can present to the buyer a as new item.
What dealership would just say, it should have oil.
It is almost painful to read this thread, excitement to disappointment and then a blame game without integrity.
Do whatever you have to do to contact the USA importer in person.
Two entities are profiting , the factory and the dealer .
But it shouldn't matter to the guy that bought it.
It matters in the context of getting this fixed . Is it the dealer's responsibility , or the factory's . Guzzi doesn't pay money on warranty claims , they pay in parts . If the factory is responsible for the initial fluid fill , then they need to fix the problem , if the dealer is responsible for initial fill then it is their problem .
Dusty
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Do you think I went over my brand new $18500 bike after seeing the number plate surround, yes and lucky I did (well after a couple of bits fell off)
(https://photos.imageevent.com/time_warp1959/misc/tr5t/IMG_2187.JPG)
Man, this thread is like an excited 10 year old kid at Christmas opening the box to find a dirty sock.
:boozing: :laugh:
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What dealer and in what state? Sadly, a lawyer could easily outpace the cost of a new transmission. Plus you really wouldn’t want the dealer you sued to ‘fix’ the bike anyway.
Yes, go directly to Piaggio as the dealer has already shown themselves incompetent. Just don’t anticipate a lot of help from Piaggio at first. If they help, it could take a bit of persuasion, time and persistence.
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I smell a rat. Hope I'm wrong , just sayin'.
Paul B :boozing:
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I smell a rat. Hope I'm wrong , just sayin'.
Paul B :boozing:
do you think Enzo wrote that?
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Trade it for an Indian.
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I hate to hear those stories. Hope you get the help you need without a lot of hassle
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I apologize in advance for the length, there's a lot going on here—
I'm trying to ask around on behalf of my father, who is having a rough time with his new V85TT. As a bit of a background, he bought the bike towards the end of April and while trailering the bike home from the dealership, the left hand protector bolt and handlebar weight came off. Then a few hundred miles later, the starter switch housing broke. Little things, not a huge deal, but kind of annoying. After about a month and with 1700 miles on the bike, while on a trip, it started making a horrible noise. He got it limped to a parking lot, had that vacation ruined, and I went and picked him up and we hauled the bike back to the dealership.
Who did the 900 mile service?
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This hurts us all.....now all the more reason to wait for a bike that has been sorted out instead of buying new from dealership unless you have a known trusted dealer you can count on. There are good dealers, plenty of them
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I smell a rat. Hope I'm wrong , just sayin'.
Paul B :boozing:
We all hope you're wrong on smelling a rat in this. But a company that for decades doesn't grease bearings, failing to fill a transmission seems quite possible. Unless the bikes come SOP from the factory without engine oil, transmission oil and /or rear differential oil. Then it once again fails squarely on dealer prep and setup. Much like properly putting the battery into service.
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jonnirado wrote:
"The lemon law doesn't apply to motorcycles in his state'
Didn't see that until I read thru the entire post a couple of times. What a load! Wouldn't it be nice if, instead of the son having to write a letter upholding his dad, he could be telling us that 'my father was so happy that the manufacturer stepped up to the plate, admitted there must have been a manufacturing issue with this new model bike, taken it back, and simply presented him with a new machine. I think you'd call it 'doing the right thing.'
Is there something else I'm missing?
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I think you've got something there Les! It has the appearance of an oil change minus adding the lube.
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What dealer and in what state? Sadly, a lawyer could easily outpace the cost of a new transmission. Plus you really wouldn’t want the dealer you sued to ‘fix’ the bike anyway.
Not sure about other states, but in CA, the lawyers charge you zero dollars, they are paid by the company that made the crappy car/motorcycle/truck/etc. And you do not sue the dealer, you go through the Lemon Law steps, and get money and turn over the bad vehicle back to the dealer. You don't have to go into a court room and see a judge or any of that stuff.
Some might see that as "being mean" or something, but it seems less mean to me than getting a new motorcycle with no oil in the transmission and then being told you gotta pay for the fix! Now that is mean!
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It is an assumption on my part that Piaggio/Moto Guzzi monitors this website. One would think they would. But, based on their lack of interest or caring about issues I'm witnessed over the ten years I've been on this forum, perhaps a different approach should be taken. Perhaps the forum itself, once it receives what appears to be a valid complaint from a member, should notify Guzzi that we, as buyers, owners, and riders, expect to see an answer from them to the problem voiced by an unhappy owner.
Or perhaps this forum isn't viewed as an owners group by Piaggio and Moto Guzzi, but as nothing more than a voice crying in the desert.
Can someone tell me ....... does Piaggio ever communicate with Wild Guzzi?
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There are many truths that need to be presented yet. Who's the selling dealer, what dealer, if any, did the first service, what country & state is the bike in, was the transmission oil changed at the first service, was the first service even done etc etc etc.
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I've never taken apart a Moto Guzzi but can you inspect/repair the clutch without going through the transmission? Or can you remove the transmission without draining the oil since it is a dry clutch? Seems strange the dealer wouldn't have checked the trans oil when doing the fixes to the bike as a general rule.
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<snip>
Checking the oil levels (forks excepted) is part of pre delivery and of course common sense for the dealer as is running over the bike visually and in some cases doing a short road test so they can present to the buyer a as new item.
<snip>
FWIW, the 6 speed on the V7's, and likely the V85 and other small blocks, do not have a sight glass, overflow plug, or dipstick in the gearbox. The only way to verify the level would be to drain it out into a measuring cup and refill.
Now, OTOH, it was mentioned the bike had gotten a new clutch. I would have expected that with the trans out, it ought have been checked. Obviously it was not.
I also don't know what the break in period is on the V85, but my new V7 says 1500 miles. If the first service miles had not been reached, there would have been no reason for the buyer to drain and refill the trans.
There is a possibility this dealer never contacted Guzzi because they don't want to mess with it again. IF they contacted Guzzi, they may have been told it is on them and they are trying to get out of it.
As has been previously suggested:
1. Contact Guzzi. Explain things and ask if the dealer had even contacted anybody. (They may or may not know, but at least you have done your due diligence.)
2. If no satisfaction there, get a lawyer.
My 2 cents.
John Henry
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I think it would be nice if the OP would reply. The story beggars belief.
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Sounds like a hoax or fake news?
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Seems like a lot of text to write up for it to be fake.
I would give Jonnirado the opportunity to enjoy their holiday weekend.
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the V85 doesn't require trans or rear end oil until 18000 miles. only engine oil and filter at the first 900 miles. all fluids are now synthetic so maybe it could have made it. But I doubt it also. no way to check the level without draining.
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Seems like a lot of text to write up for it to be fake.
I would give Jonnirado the opportunity to enjoy their holiday weekend.
Seems like a lot of text to ask for a phone # that could have been googled in 30 seconds.
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Still don't know where the bike and rider are from, or where the dealer is, but it appears that the breakdown happened in Utah.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFwa0WdQT5E
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Sure, one can find MG’s / Piaggio’s phone number or email address pretty easily, but my understanding is that they’re asking for a anyone with a personal connection to help get things done, as it appears that more formal routes seem to be stalled.
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The most logical answer I come up with:
The trans was pulled to change the clutch.
Trans tips sideways and oil drains out the speedometer drive, or the output shaft.
Maybe the janitor cleaned up the mess and the mechanic didn't know. Or maybe he did?
Everything went back together without oil added.
Seems plausible to me.
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the V85 doesn't require trans or rear end oil until 18000 miles. only engine oil and filter at the first 900 miles. all fluids are now synthetic so maybe it could have made it. But I doubt it also. no way to check the level without draining.
I realize this is apples and oranges, but I doubt they are that far off from one another. The V7 that I just bought calls for the first service to be performed at 1500 kilometers.Among other things, Engine oil, and gearbox oil are included in that service. Oddly what IS missing is what they define as "final drive oil". (I am looking at the manual as I type this.)
If this whole thread is legit, and no pertinent part of the story has been omitted, someone other than the owner is liable.
John Henry
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Oddly what IS missing is what they define as "final drive oil". (I am looking at the manual as I type this.)
Final drive is the bevel gear/ shaft going directly to the rear wheel (the “pumpkin”)
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Final drive is the bevel gear/ shaft going directly to the rear wheel (the “pumpkin”)
I know what it is. The point is they do not have you changing the final drive oil until 20K????? Seems kind of stupid to me. Ask me if I'll wait that long.
John Henry
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Check out the responsibilities and capabilities of your state's Attorneys General office.
-Mike-
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Man, I winced watching that video. I hate hearing expensive mechanical crunchy sounds. He says Guzzi is going to warranty the fix. Hope he's right. Nothing worse that a major breakdown in the middle of nowhere. Well, Moab, Utah almost nowhere!
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I apologize in advance for the length, there's a lot going on here—
I'm trying to ask around on behalf of my father, who is having a rough time with his new V85TT. As a bit of a background, he bought the bike towards the end of April and while trailering the bike home from the dealership, the left hand protector bolt and handlebar weight came off. Then a few hundred miles later, the starter switch housing broke. Little things, not a huge deal, but kind of annoying. After about a month and with 1700 miles on the bike, while on a trip, it started making a horrible noise. He got it limped to a parking lot, had that vacation ruined, and I went and picked him up and we hauled the bike back to the dealership.
Initially he was told “something” had come loose in the clutch (still not sure what) and that somehow also caused the starter to fail. While there, they discovered a crack in the driveshaft housing. The dealership initially started going down the road of rider abuse to put the blame on my father, but saw from the motorcycle the problems were not rider error and there were no signs of abuse.
As an aside, my father has been riding for over 30 years and has owned multiple motorcycles. This one was the first new bike he has ever bought and it is his baby. He was not out rallying the bike and I know because I've done a lot of riding with him. He's not so young anymore and has no desire to beat himself or the bike up.
After 5+ weeks of waiting, the dealership finally got parts in, put everything back together, and the bike was still making the noise. They then thought it might be the transmission, so they drained the oil from the trans and found it only had 25cc of oil (apparently there should be somewhere around 750cc). The dealer said there was no evidence of any oil leaking out anywhere. My dad keeps it parked on a cement floor in his shop and there have been no oil spots there.
The dealership is now saying Moto Guzzi will not cover the transmission under warranty because “if it had that little oil it should have failed sooner.” The dealer already admitted to not checking the transmission oil level on initial bike setup. The transmission is not something easily accessible for service—it's not like my dad somehow drained the transmission oil when changing the engine oil and then did not fill it back up. The manual even states the transmission should be serviced by the dealer. There was no reason for him to even be in the transmission, especially with that low of miles. They are implying that at some point, for no reason, he drained the transmission of oil, didn't fill it back up, and then kept riding. They have not specified how many miles it should have taken for a problem to crop up when running with low oil, just that they won't cover the repair because it should have been fewer.
They are also now saying that the transmission failure caused the clutch and starter issue as part of a “chain reaction.” They still haven't said how that would work, and before they were willing to acknowledge defects in the bike, which tells me they did not (and do not) know what the actual problem was, they just found a convenient way to pin it on the customer.
The point of this long story is the dealership says the warranty won't apply and a new transmission is $2000 + labor costs. They have exonerated my father of wrongdoing, but said Moto Guzzi still declined to cover the fix. So, with less than 2000 miles on the bike, and more time in the shop than on the road, he has to shell out that kind of money to get his bike back, with no guarantee the final drive or engine won't grenade in another 2000 miles and he'll be right back in the same spot.
My question for you guys is, does anyone have any connections at Moto Guzzi? The dealership has thus far not provided any contact information for their Moto Guzzi rep. He would like to go to someone at MG directly instead of working through the dealer, who hasn't been very helpful thus far. If any of you people know anyone at MG, or anywhere else, who might be able to do something, that would be greatly appreciated. The lemon law doesn't apply to motorcycles in his state and he will be talking to a lawyer next week about a breach of warranty claim, but that would be a stretch. The best option would be to work it out with the manufacture, but he doesn't know who to contact.
If you made it this far, thank you so much for reading. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated, and take this as a caveat emptor if you are considering a V85TT.
Sounds like this you tube video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFwa0WdQT5E and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-lr9I9XQ9U
Who did the initial 900 mile service/OIL change on the bike? I believe calls for changing the transmission oil and rear differential at 18K miles. Hard to diagnose over the internet obviously, but it is very unlikely the bike made it 1700 miles with so little oil in the trans, or the sounds and issues were ignored ending in the catastrophic failure on the trails. If it wasn't filled correctly from the factory, it must have leaked out, or was accidentally drained. No other options.
The ONLY thing to learn here is to NOT trust the manufacturer or dealer setup. If your dad did not accidentally drain or attempt to drain the trans oil, and it was not touched by the owner, then it is a manufacturing issue, and the dealer who set up and delivered the bike should eat the cost.
Looking at the video and hearing about the cracked driveshaft housing is interesting. Would be helpful to know where this crack was. The rear 'pumpkin?' the swing arm? The rear portion of the gearbox?
I'd be talking to a lawyer who would be talking to the dealer.
BTW, looking at the video of your dad, your comment on 'his being old' is hysterical, given that he is likely younger than most of the folks on this forum.....
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In regards to the pumpkin oil change interval don't forget before the recall on early V85's to put in a extra seal to prevent oil leaking onto the rear tire it was thought the issue was overfilling the pumpkin so they put out a notice that during PDI to drain the pumpkin fully and then add exactly 160 ml of oil and leave it alone until I believe 30,000 km. Turns out it was an assembly issue causing damage to an interior seal and not overfilling but the change interval as far as I know remains the same. The V85 owners manual shows both the final drive oil and gearbox oil having intervals of 30,000 km so the oil didn't need to be changed out on this bike in question even at the 1500 km initial service.
I myself changed all the oils on my V85 at 4500 miles and 12000 miles because I was in a good spot to do so at the time and aren't really comfortable with the 30,000 km (18,600 miles) interval called for but I'm sure the bikes will be just fine if you adhere to that schedule.
I agree with LesP that the 25 ml residual oil in the final drive is suspicious and we have nowhere near the whole story.
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Sounds like a hoax or fake news?
I'm wrong once again :copcar: apologies to all..
Yikes that sounds really bad when he lets out the clutch.
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Yep, not fake, I was skeptical too, but not after seeing the vid.
I still think everyone should keep their pants on until the OP responds with what if anything the Mother Ship offered.
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I'm wrong once again :copcar: apologies to all..
Yikes that sounds really bad when he lets out the clutch.
The fact that disengaging the clutch stopped the noise indicated that the problem was likely in the gearbox, I would think any experienced mechanic would have known that.
I doubt we'll ever hear the rest of this story, my experience has been that when there are this many holes in a story there's usually a reason.
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Where is the other 725 cc, in the swing arm ?
There’s a hole bored in the swingarm just forward of the bevelbox/swingarm joint face to stop fluids collecting there.