Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Huzo on July 25, 2020, 04:00:15 AM
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It’s the V85..
There are several ways this problem can manifest, but this is the one most worth telling about.
You’re riding along at any speed/rpm combination, but for my example it’ll be 100 kph in top gear on cruise control. With no intervention from wind gusts or alteration in slope, the bike will almost imperceptibly lose a small amount of power accompanied by an equally small roughness to the engine, exactly like a six that drops one cylinder. The cruise control will apply some throttle and so the 100 kph is maintained.
If you weren’t astute enough you’d not even notice, until the power kicks in again and everything is normal.
Again it’s as if you were on a six and you flicked a plug lead off and popped it back on after a couple of seconds. I have felt exactly the same symptom when encountering icing on carbed engines, a gentle loss of power and a sudden kick as it resumes.
Now this loss and resumption of power is fairly small but unmistakably present.
Also, if you flog the living tripe out of the bike, it will really get up and go (for an 850), it’s at it’s best when working hard. Also the yellow engine light illuminates and takes a while to go out.
Now it’s fair to say that for 95% of the time the bike is perfect, so I’m not looking at any introduced anomaly caused by altering the exhaust system or repositioning the O2 sensors.
This is intermittent and not connected to ambient temperature or fuel tank level...(poor venting, I have opened the fuel cap while riding and it made no difference).
I’m going to re examine the extensions I made to the wires feeding the O2 sensors to make sure there are no introduced faults. I recently rode home from Broken Hill to Creswick (750 km) and not a spot of trouble.
I also think I’ll replace the Iridium plugs, just in case there is a whisker on one and check the plug caps.
Now Beetle pointed in the direction of a TC issue..
That made me sit up and take notice, so I did an on board re calibration but the problem still persists, also I have selected off road mode where the TC disconnects, but the issue comes back from time to time..
Just for the record, what does a malfunctioning injector feel like? I have given it a dose of cleaner.
Ok guys....Your turn.
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In my commute, I have some long straight, flat stretches where I ride just like that on cruise. My bike is bone stock so I will have to see if I can perceive this. If the bike has done so, it has not been obvious enough for me to notice so far in 7,500 miles, but I am pretty dense. If I feel it, I will add a post.
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In my commute, I have some long straight, flat stretches where I ride just like that on cruise. My bike is bone stock so I will have to see if I can perceive this. If the bike has done so, it has not been obvious enough for me to notice so far in 7,500 miles, but I am pretty dense. If I feel it, I will add a post.
ok thanks
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Is the V85 a single or dual plugged motor?
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Is it not possible that the computer detected that you were on a miniscule down-slope or road speed had edged up to 101kmh, and it adjusted to stay at your preferred speed? The cruise on my Cavalcade does exactly that (except it probably feels a little more jerky) - being an old-tech, non computerized system. You may be looking for a problem that doesn't really exist. Perhaps??
Nick
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Is it related at all to the throttle positioning? At particular throttle position and gearing/ highway speed, my V7II would suddenly and slightly lag in power until I opened the throttle a bit more. Dealership replaced the O2 sensor(s) and it’s been fine since.
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Is it not possible that the computer detected that you were on a miniscule down-slope or road speed had edged up to 101kmh, and it adjusted to stay at your preferred speed? The cruise on my Cavalcade does exactly that (except it probably feels a little more jerky) - being an old-tech, non computerized system. You may be looking for a problem that doesn't really exist. Perhaps??
Nick
Thanks for your interest in this everyone.
It’s independent of engine load or rpm, but for sure when at lesser power settings.
Also you can feel a reduction in the smoothness of the engine as it happens. It certainly does feel like an uncommanded intervention by the TC, but for what reason if at all ?
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Is it related at all to the throttle positioning? At particular throttle position and gearing/ highway speed, my V7II would suddenly and slightly lag in power until I opened the throttle a bit more. Dealership replaced the O2 sensor(s) and it’s been fine since.
That’s a bit like my observations... :popcorn:
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Is the V85 a single or dual plugged motor?
Single
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Is it related at all to the throttle positioning? At particular throttle position and gearing/ highway speed, my V7II would suddenly and slightly lag in power until I opened the throttle a bit more. Dealership replaced the O2 sensor(s) and it’s been fine since.
No, not as such.
It can happen at 80 kph in top gear or 110 kph in top gear, that corresponds to a different throttle setting.
It’s really quite random and independent of other influences it seems.
The first time it did it was just after washing, but that was not a cause apparently. There is definitely a slight roughness that manifests during the incident, so I feel that it’s one cylinder laying down slightly. If it were a TPS command, it would reduce power on both pots and remain smooth given that it has a single throttle body.
I wondered if I had a slightly sticking valve, but thought better of it given that a touch of throttle overcomes it instantly....(sort of).
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My Subaru does this when there is a downhill slope. It lifts to slow, then adds a little, lifts a little... It feels like a misfire, shivering through the car. I think the precise fuel injection and over-zealous desire to cut all coasting emissions exacerbate the issue. I had one spot on my commute (when I had a commute) where it bothered me enough to kick it off cruise. Does this happen in the same place?
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It does sound like a finicky cruise control system. I had a Ford pickup which would kick out of cruise control on the same down hill consistently, but was otherwise fine every other place. I chalked it up to fluctuations in the Earth's Magnetic Field at that location.
I would expect cruise control on a two cylinder engine to be much less precise (more noticeable while adjusting) than cruise control on a four, six, or eight cylinder engine.
Also sounds like it could be a bit of water in the gasoline, or whatever the Hell they call it in Straya.
Try filling up at a different gas station, or dumping in a bottle of dry gas when you notice it. With the addition of the dry gas, it should go away within a couple miles.
If you have been using ethanol, try non-ethanal gas. Cheers Mate!
ps. did it do this before the silveriztion of the bike? Could be an associated attitude problem.......
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Could be an associated attitude problem.......
I'll go with that one.. but.. this is ringing little bells in my memory thingy. I think I've read of this somewhere else, too.
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Moto Guzzi does not employ any cylinder deactivation systems do they? I know new Indians drop the rear cylinder while cruising to help reduce heat. And car manufacturers have gotten it so good it’s really hard to notice when the cylinders cut out and back on.
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It does it whether you are on cruise control or not.
My initial example included cruise control because I thought someone would suggest I wasn’t holding the throttle steady.
Not the case.
I tried it in off road mode so as to de activate the TC and made no difference. Remember, the yellow engine light comes on and stays on for some time during this issue.
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I am wondering if I have contaminant in the TPS ?
I have watched a few clips on the topic and the symptoms of a malfunctioning TPS sound scarily similar. Being ride by wire, is the TPS in the throttle winding drum on the twistgrip, or down at the throttle body ?
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Had that problem for years on the V7C, albeit a different animal. A slight miss at constant throttle, none on a positive or negative throttle, usually at 110 in top motorway cruising, and intermittent. Often 10,000km between occurances. I'd do something, it would seem to fix it, but it would come back. Early on, a clean airbox & a new air filter would seem to fix it. For a while. Eventually, I buckled down and learned how to test the TPS with Guzzidiag. Found a flat spot starting at 3,400rpm. No such trouble since I swapped out the TPS. A mate with a Cafe Classic (bobic on here) had a similar problem - his was fixed by cleaning & lubrucating the insides of the TPS. I suspect the problem could have been identified with proper application of a voltmeter. Not saying that this is your problem. It could be, but there's all sorts of possibilities when black boxes are involved. Good luck, Huzo.
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are there any stored or active faults recorded in the obd?
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Had that problem for years on the V7C, albeit a different animal. A slight miss at constant throttle, none on a positive or negative throttle, usually at 110 in top motorway cruising, and intermittent. Often 10,000km between occurances. I'd do something, it would seem to fix it, but it would come back. Early on, a clean airbox & a new air filter would seem to fix it. For a while. Eventually, I buckled down and learned how to test the TPS with Guzzidiag. Found a flat spot starting at 3,400rpm. No such trouble since I swapped out the TPS. A mate with a Cafe Classic (bobic on here) had a similar problem - his was fixed by cleaning & lubrucating the insides of the TPS. I suspect the problem could have been identified with proper application of a voltmeter. Not saying that this is your problem. It could be, but there's all sorts of possibilities when black boxes are involved. Good luck, Huzo.
Thank you Malik, encouraging to say the least.
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are there any stored or active faults recorded in the obd?
I can’t check that myself can I ?
I can on the Norge..
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You can, but you"ll need to contact Lonelect and get a cable and download guzzidiag { please donate} and get the bikes opinion! :popcorn:
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You said that it happens at different speeds. Does it happen at different engine RPM? If it happens at the same RPM that is a clue, particularly if it is about 3800.
The ECU stores faults even after the warning light goes out. You can read the fault(s) with GuzziDiag. Don't go by just the name of the fault. Look up "OBD #" on the web for more information; often there are several possible causes.
Dan
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It’s the V85..
There are several ways this problem can manifest, but this is the one most worth telling about.
You’re riding along at any speed/rpm combination, but for my example it’ll be 100 kph in top gear on cruise control. With no intervention from wind gusts or alteration in slope, the bike will almost imperceptibly lose a small amount of power accompanied by an equally small roughness to the engine, exactly like a six that drops one cylinder. The cruise control will apply some throttle and so the 100 kph is maintained.
If you weren’t astute enough you’d not even notice, until the power kicks in again and everything is normal.
Again it’s as if you were on a six and you flicked a plug lead off and popped it back on after a couple of seconds. I have felt exactly the same symptom when encountering icing on carbed engines, a gentle loss of power and a sudden kick as it resumes.
Now this loss and resumption of power is fairly small but unmistakably present.
Also, if you flog the living tripe out of the bike, it will really get up and go (for an 850), it’s at it’s best when working hard. Also the yellow engine light illuminates and takes a while to go out.
Now it’s fair to say that for 95% of the time the bike is perfect, so I’m not looking at any introduced anomaly caused by altering the exhaust system or repositioning the O2 sensors.
This is intermittent and not connected to ambient temperature or fuel tank level...(poor venting, I have opened the fuel cap while riding and it made no difference).
I’m going to re examine the extensions I made to the wires feeding the O2 sensors to make sure there are no introduced faults. I recently rode home from Broken Hill to Creswick (750 km) and not a spot of trouble.
I also think I’ll replace the Iridium plugs, just in case there is a whisker on one and check the plug caps.
Now Beetle pointed in the direction of a TC issue..
That made me sit up and take notice, so I did an on board re calibration but the problem still persists, also I have selected off road mode where the TC disconnects, but the issue comes back from time to time..
Just for the record, what does a malfunctioning injector feel like? I have given it a dose of cleaner.
Ok guys....Your turn.
First thing I'd do is use Guzzi diag and disable the closed loop setting for the injection system and see if that helps. Seems the issue is all at steady throttle where the closed loop has it's effect.
Ciao
Ciao
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You can, but you"ll need to contact Lonelect and get a cable and download guzzidiag { please donate} and get the bikes opinion! :popcorn:
Followed Beetle’s advice there and will load Guzzi Diag.
New territory for me, but here goes..!
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You said that it happens at different speeds. Does it happen at different engine RPM? If it happens at the same RPM that is a clue, particularly if it is about 3800.
The ECU stores faults even after the warning light goes out. You can read the fault(s) with GuzziDiag. Don't go by just the name of the fault. Look up "OBD #" on the web for more information; often there are several possible causes.
Dan
It appears to be random in it’s nature mate.
More often than not at gentle throttle settings, but not exclusivley so. Thank you for your interest though, it’s really helpful to me..
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First thing I'd do is use Guzzi diag and disable the closed loop setting for the injection system and see if that helps. Seems the issue is all at steady throttle where the closed loop has it's effect.
Ciao
Ciao
I’ll keep that in mind also..
Thanks.
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Followed Beetle’s advice there and will load Guzzi Diag.
New territory for me, but here goes..!
What? You are a high mileage modern Guzzi Guy and you don't have Guzzi Diag? <shaking head and shuffling off>
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What? You are a high mileage modern Guzzi Guy and you don't have Guzzi Diag? <shaking head and shuffling off>
Never needed it..
I have a Beetle map loaded by Pete Roper who is a leisurely ride from me.
It’d be like you living next door to Captain Sullenberger and not asking advice on a B737 or Airbus A320.....!
Also my 185,000 k bike is a Norge....Damn perfect.... :thumb: :thumb:
I will however, redouble my efforts to grow a set and learn how to load and use Guzzidiag..
It’s past time.
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Back at the top of the page I asked if the ignition was single or dual plug on the V85
I wondered if the loss of a few HP could be one plug quitting for a second.
I have looked through all the reviews and none of them mention two plugs so I assume that is a red herring.
Sooner or later a question will come up about a wiring issue, so far I have not seen a wiring schematic for the V85.
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Back at the top of the page I asked if the ignition was single or dual plug on the V85
I wondered if the loss of a few HP could be one plug quitting for a second.
I have looked through all the reviews and none of them mention two plugs so I assume that is a red herring.
Sooner or later a question will come up about a wiring issue, so far I have not seen a wiring schematic for the V85.
It feels like it’s dropping “half a cylinder” or less.
It’s a single plug head.
Very similar to icing in the feel, gentle and very subtle loss of some power with a slight roughness, then instant regaining of performance.
I’m leaning towards TPS.
Is the TPS in the twist grip drum ?
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Gotta’ go now, watching this..
https://youtu.be/tcVmwf24zvU
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Just a WAG but does the V85 have the same type of plugcaps as some other modern MG bikes that go bad a lot? I just thought that becouse you said it first acted up after washing..
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Just a WAG but does the V85 have the same type of plugcaps as some other modern MG bikes that go bad a lot? I just thought that becouse you said it first acted up after washing..
I have thought about that too and I don’t know.
The symptoms look a bit like it.
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It is ride by wire isn't it, I know nothing about those systems.
Surely it can't be as complicated as a 1400 see Carl Allisons diagrams on This Old Tractor
A single throttle body I believe
I would expect it to at least throw up an error message if something was failing, even a humble V7 does that.
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Back at the top of the page I asked if the ignition was single or dual plug on the V85
I wondered if the loss of a few HP could be one plug quitting for a second.
I have looked through all the reviews and none of them mention two plugs so I assume that is a red herring.
Sooner or later a question will come up about a wiring issue, so far I have not seen a wiring schematic for the V85.
Hi, Roy.
You can find the wiring schematic here:
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_small_blocks_wiring_diagrams_-very_large_and_easy_to_read-.html (http://www.thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_small_blocks_wiring_diagrams_-very_large_and_easy_to_read-.html)
Cheers,
Shaun
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..........l
I’m leaning towards TPS.
Is the TPS in the twist grip drum ?
On the 1TB's the TPS is somewhere up near the throttle body & ECU, might even be integral to something. Beetle knows. It's not as accessible as on the 2 throttle body bikes. FWIW, the 15RC ECU never showed any error code in Guzzidiag all the years I was having what turned out to be a malfunctioning TPS.
If the spark plug ends in a solid post, rather than being threaded, I would change out the caps & plugs. One of the first things I did to the 1TB V7. Nothing beats tactile feedback for reassurance of a solid connection down there.
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I'll go with that one.. but.. this is ringing little bells in my memory thingy. I think I've read of this somewhere else, too.
i was thinking the same, was it something about the traction control?
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i was thinking the same, was it something about the traction control?
Seems like it, but my memory.. Oh look! Squirrel!
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Hi, Roy.
You can find the wiring schematic here:
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_small_blocks_wiring_diagrams_-very_large_and_easy_to_read-.html (http://www.thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_small_blocks_wiring_diagrams_-very_large_and_easy_to_read-.html)
Cheers,
Shaun
I must be a bit dense, I dont see anything to download.
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I must be a bit dense, I dont see anything to download.
Sorry, if you scroll down to the bottom of that page, the V85TT writing schematic is the last one listed. You can just click on that and you will have the PDF.
Hope that helps. I can send it to you directly if that doesn't work.
Cheers,
Shaun
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Could you jury rig an old school throttle lock and achieve the same cruising speed?
That should take any idiosyncrasies of the cruise control programming out of the equation
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Sorry, if you scroll down to the bottom of that page, the V85TT writing schematic is the last one listed. You can just click on that and you will have the PDF.
Hope that helps. I can send it to you directly if that doesn't work.
Cheers,
Shaun
Of course it does, I told you I was a bit dense lol
Thankyou for that.
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:thumb:
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Could it be when the ECU switches from closed loop to open loop or back the other way? That could easily produce a condition where the power droops slightly with seemingly no change.
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Could you jury rig an old school throttle lock and achieve the same cruising speed?
That should take any idiosyncrasies of the cruise control programming out of the equation
I have shut the cruise off and it makes no difference.
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i was thinking the same, was it something about the traction control?
Beetle was onto that from the start, but I don’t have a diagnosis yet..
If he can’t figure it, I can’t see that I’ve any chance.
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Could it be when the ECU switches from closed loop to open loop or back the other way? That could easily produce a condition where the power droops slightly with seemingly no change.
Will Guzzidiag show a code for that anomaly ?
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Huzo,
Is he ECU black?
Have you considered stripping the black paint off it, then polishing it or painting it silver?
Can't hurt.
You might pissed off the Italian gods of motorcycle styling with your arrogant modifications of their divine design!
If it is a subtle surge, you might want to swap out your plug caps, maybe try iridium plugs, or go a heat range or two hotter just to see if there are any noticeable difference. That would at least be a clue as ignition as a potential source.
How about the dry gas, have you tried that yet?
cheers mate!
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Could it be when the ECU switches from closed loop to open loop or back the other way? That could easily produce a condition where the power droops slightly with seemingly no change.
Hence my suggestion to use guzzidiag to switch off the closed loop and see the result. Closed loops effect is on steady state throttle and is effectively a rich/lean switch. Common for all sorts of engines to surge a little in the switching if the mapping isn't great.
Ciao
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Huzo,
Is he ECU black?
Have you considered stripping the black paint off it, then polishing it or painting it silver?
Can't hurt.
You might pissed off the Italian gods of motorcycle styling with your arrogant modifications of their divine design!
If it is a subtle surge, you might want to swap out your plug caps, maybe try iridium plugs, or go a heat range or two hotter just to see if there are any noticeable difference. That would at least be a clue as ignition as a potential source.
How about the dry gas, have you tried that yet?
cheers mate!
That is actually very funny SRE.
I pulled the plug leads off (lucky buggers... :wink:) while riding at high speed and the surging stopped...!
I think you are onto something... :bow: :thumb:
Also I reject the notion that I am arrogant, I’m just wiser, more intelligent, funnier, better looking and generally superior to everyone else..
How can that possibly be my fault...? :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Could it be an injector
issue with turbulence in the fuel flow? During basically constant higher RPM
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Will Guzzidiag show a code for that anomaly ?
It’s not an anomaly. But if the target AFR changes significantly while switching modes it would have the potential to cause a detectable increase or decrease in power.
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It’s not an anomaly. But if the target AFR changes significantly while switching modes it would have the potential to cause a detectable increase or decrease in power.
Hey, there’s another thing..!
I thought to isolate the TC so selected off road mode. Sure enough, the bike could be made to spin the wheel under acceleration.
There seemed to be no discernible loss in power though, I thought it was supposed to de rate the output a bit..
Fancy that..!
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Hey, there’s another thing..!
I thought to isolate the TC so selected off road mode. Sure enough, the bike could be made to spin the wheel under acceleration.
There seemed to be no discernible loss in power though, I thought it was supposed to de rate the output a bit..
Fancy that..!
I can’t tell a difference in power delivery no matter what mode I’m in either. From what I recall seeing when I looked at the engine calibration file, the requested torque is the same for all three modes. But I haven’t looked at the file since last fall so my memory may have failed me.
Another thing I had thought of is that you changed the exhaust and relocated the o2 sensors. I wouldn’t expect this to cause trouble but maybe? Did it run any different before vs after the exhaust modification?
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Huzo,
this is a single TB bike right? So it can't be a balance issue, right?
Might want to consider replacing the TB with a carb to see if that helps! :thumb:
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Huzo,
this is a single TB bike right? So it can't be a balance issue, right?
Might want to consider replacing the TB with a carb to see if that helps! :thumb:
I did it the other way ‘round Ed.
I took the throttle body and associated circuitry, along with the ECU and grafted it all onto my lawn mower while having a coffee. The darn thing ran perfectly...! :popcorn:
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Another thing I had thought of is that you changed the exhaust and relocated the o2 sensors. I wouldn’t expect this to cause trouble but maybe? Did it run any different before vs after the exhaust modification?
It never did it on the standard system and I’m thinking to throw that back on to try it again.
Bear in mind however, it doesn’t do anything wrong 95% of the time with the new one..
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It never did it on the standard system and I’m thinking to throw that back on to try it again.
Bear in mind however, it doesn’t do anything wrong 95% of the time with the new one..
Interesting. If you do put the old exhaust on again let us know the results.
Assuming we’re heading down the right path, the ultimate solution may be to get an ECU calibration that has the closed loop function disabled. I know it was being worked on at one point in time but I’m not sure where the experts are at on that project.
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I did it the other way ‘round Ed.
I took the throttle body and associated circuitry, along with the ECU and grafted it all onto my lawn mower while having a coffee. The darn thing ran perfectly...! :popcorn:
Makes sense. The engine on the lawn mower was probably designed 30 years after the engine on the Guzzi....
did you try the dry gas, or switching fuel yet? How about a new set of plugs? Sometimes it's the simple things....... :azn:
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How about a new set of plugs? Sometimes it's the simple things....... :azn:
Not yet but I will.
Problem there is that it feels like a partial loss and so intermittent.
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How’s your tire pressure. Didn’t you go tubeless? While I was at my dealer (Hamlin’s) last week he mentioned that low tire pressure can adversely affect the traction control system.
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How’s your tire pressure. Didn’t you go tubeless? While I was at my dealer (Hamlin’s) last week he mentioned that low tire pressure can adversely affect the traction control system.
That’s a good suggestion too Cam.
The symptoms would point down that path, but I reverted to tubes so as to get the whole lot up and running again. There was too much stuff spread around the shop. I have done a re calibration which is very straightforward, so that should have set that issue to rights.
This weekend I’ll put the iridium plugs on the shelf and throw in a set of NGK equivalents and properly check the plug leads/coil connections etc..
Also I’ll check that the extensions I put in the O2 sensor leads are sound and also correctly sealed from water or contaminant ingress. They are behind the sump near the oil drain, so would be in a position where they could get wet.
Again many thanks to all and sundry for your interest, but I’ll reiterate that for the vast majority of the time it runs perfectly, so I am factoring that into my thoughts when examining possible causes.
BTW..
I was joking about the lawn mower in the earlier post... :rolleyes:
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Not yet but I will.
Problem there is that it feels like a partial loss and so intermittent.
those are the worst. sometimes you wonder if you are just imagining the symptoms.
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Ok...
The stumping continues..
I have taken off the sensors to check for any anomalies in my previous work and noticed that the female plugs on the end of the O2 leads are not identical.
One is labelled “O2” and one is “O4”,
(https://i.ibb.co/TPZbMWp/25-BEA19-A-B697-4068-B45-E-8-A13262-D51-FE.jpg) (https://ibb.co/TPZbMWp)
(https://i.ibb.co/yYZf9S7/0-F0-B3470-6-E4-D-41-D2-B44-E-10412-EB4242-F.jpg) (https://ibb.co/yYZf9S7)
I do not for one second think that the Oxygen one one side is a diatomic molecule and the other side is quadratomic :rolleyes:
But..
Does anyone have an inkling as to why they are not absolutely identical?
I embarrassingly admit that I did not take adequate care to keep the right and left labelled so as to ensure correct re fitment, but I have labelled them upon removal this time for reference.
I do note however, that they are the same part number, so the different coding on the plugs is probably an in house supplier reference...Or something.. :popcorn: