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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Turin on September 04, 2020, 07:29:39 PM
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A while back I bought an Ex Raceco UK racebike frame. Yup, restoring another ex racebike. Lotta work ahead.
Anyway, the frame builder (Andy Sidlow) built this old school. I just got it back from media blasting. look at these brazed / bronze welds.
will start a build thread.
(https://i.ibb.co/nnDkSts/brazed-frame-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nnDkSts)
(https://i.ibb.co/WcJZsGH/brazed-frame-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/WcJZsGH)
(https://i.ibb.co/NCkQm8w/brazed-frame-4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NCkQm8w)
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Yes bronze welding has advantages over TIG and MIG but requires a lot of skill to do well. Good luck with the build.
Ciao
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Yes bronze welding has advantages over TIG and MIG but requires a lot of skill to do well. Good luck with the build.
Ciao
I've done a lot of it. As far as I'm concerned it's easier than welding.
Nice welds? See below.. not mine, unfortunately,
(https://www.eaglersnest.com/forum/offsite_avatars/avatar_135_1542545544.png)
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Nice! What's the hole for in the x brace? Is that grey the natural color of the metal ? Looks like paint.
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Brazing and welding are not the same process from what I know. Yes? Usually chrome moly tubing was brazed rather than welded.
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A while back I bought an Ex Raceco UK racebike frame. Yup, restoring another ex racebike. Lotta work ahead.
Anyway, the frame builder (Andy Sidlow) built this old school. I just got it back from media blasting. look at these brazed / bronze welds.
will start a build thread.
(https://i.ibb.co/nnDkSts/brazed-frame-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nnDkSts)
(https://i.ibb.co/WcJZsGH/brazed-frame-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/WcJZsGH)
(https://i.ibb.co/NCkQm8w/brazed-frame-4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NCkQm8w)
If you are open to opinions, I vote for a clear coat finish on the frame. Better to show off those brazed joints than hide them.
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I've done a lot of it. As far as I'm concerned it's easier than welding.
Nice welds? See below.. not mine, unfortunately,
(https://www.eaglersnest.com/forum/offsite_avatars/avatar_135_1542545544.png)
Back in the day when I did both, I would agree. Unfortunately due to lack of recent practice, I've lost those skills.
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Brazing and welding are not the same process from what I know. Yes? Usually chrome moly tubing was brazed rather than welded.
Bronze welding is different from brazing which is different from TIG which is different from MIG.English frames like Seeley and Rickman as well as Egli etc were usually bronze welded, as were Mcintosh frames.
This is Bronze welding, not brazing which it is commonly confused with. It's an art form as well as arguably mechanically superior to TIG in a Motorcycle chassis application.
(https://i.ibb.co/8zX87N9/PA-PI2013-177.jpg) (https://ibb.co/8zX87N9)
Ciao
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If you are open to opinions, I vote for a clear coat finish on the frame. Better to show off those brazed joints than hide them.
In this instance there're not pretty enough for that.
Ciao
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Nice! What's the hole for in the x brace? Is that grey the natural color of the metal ? Looks like paint.
It's just an exercise in welding thin wall tubing. To do a good job of TIG, the base material has to be scrupulously clean. Most likely bead blast.
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Bronze welding is different from brazing which is different from TIG which is different from MIG.English frames like Seeley and Rickman as well as Egli etc were usually bronze welded, as were Mcintosh frames.
This is Bronze welding, not brazing which it is commonly confused with. It's an art form as well as arguably mechanically superior to TIG in a Motorcycle chassis application.
(https://i.ibb.co/8zX87N9/PA-PI2013-177.jpg) (https://ibb.co/8zX87N9)
Ciao
That is nicely done. Looks like TIG with bronze filler to me.
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Nice! What's the hole for in the x brace?
That is where you funnel in all the money :evil:
Great project, standing by for updates :thumb:
Paul B :boozing:
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The process of welding requires that the parts being joined are heated to the point where they melt and mix with the filler material to create a bond. (TIG, MIG, SMAW, doesn't matter)
Brazing requires that the parts being joined are heated to the melting temperature of the filler material. That temperature is often below the melting temperature of the parts being joined. The strength of the joint is dependent upon the strength of the filler material and its adhesion to the parts being joined.
The frame is brazed, not welded! Brazing is easier on things like chromoly because of the lower temperatures required. When welding alloy steel it us not uncommon to shield the inside of the tube with an inert gas. This complicates the procedure.
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That is where you funnel in all the money :evil:
Very good!
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"as well as Egli"
I didn't know anybody else remembered him.
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I've done a lot of it. As far as I'm concerned it's easier than welding.
Nice welds? See below.. not mine, unfortunately,
(https://www.eaglersnest.com/forum/offsite_avatars/avatar_135_1542545544.png)
It’s been quite a few years since I’ve done any brazing but to the best on my recollection you only have to liquify the brazing rod and just heat the other two
Materials good and red, correct?
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It’s been quite a few years since I’ve done any brazing but to the best on my recollection you only have to liquify the brazing rod and just heat the other two
Materials good and red, correct?
That'll git 'er done comply.
Trek built brazed bike frames by dropping filler material rings inside (or wherever necessary) on a jigged frame and then heating the areas until the rings melted and flowed.
I reworked a Bob Jackson trike for a friend and did all the brazing with eutectic silver filler. That material melted around 1,200 Fahrenheit. Plenty of margin between that temp and the one that will damage 4130 cromoly. That filler is not cheap.
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That filler is not cheap.
You've got that right. :smiley: It might have something to do with "silver" in the name.
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You've got that right. :smiley: It might have something to do with "silver" in the name.
Actually not. I bought the eutectic solder back when silver was cheap and still paid about four times the price I paid for Silbond 45.
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That is nicely done. Looks like TIG with bronze filler to me.
Maybe Chuck but an expert at Bronze welding can do this with a torch. Judging by the distribution of parent metal discolouration I'd have said a torch but these days might have been a TIG. All those 60's and 70's bespoke frame builders used a torch and got results like this. Hard to believe i know.
Ciao
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Maybe Chuck but an expert at Bronze welding can do this with a torch. Judging by the distribution of parent metal discolouration I'd have said a torch but these days might have been a TIG. All those 60's and 70's bespoke frame builders used a torch and got results like this. Hard to believe i know.
Ciao
I have a dollar that says that's TIG. The color fades too rapidly near the joint. Doesn't matter.. it's nice work, however it was done. I, personally, have never been able to do that "stack of dimes" with a torch.
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I have a dollar that says that's TIG. The color fades too rapidly near the joint. Doesn't matter.. it's nice work, however it was done. I, personally, have never been able to do that "stack of dimes" with a torch.
You want me to lay down a whole US DOLLAR Chuck!, have you seen the exchange rate these days:) I couldn't weld like that even in my dreams. As an aside I met a guy around the corner a few weeks ago with a triple garage full of equipment so I stopped for a chat. He's a retired sheet metal worker that sold his business restoring/rebuilding bodywork on classic/vintage/veteran cars. He showed me albums full of the projects he's tackled over the years. When he closed down he kept all his equipment and now does stuff from home just to keep his hand in. When the lockdown ends I'm going to see if he can teach me his sheet metals skills. I have a hankering to build a replica V11 fuel tank from alloy and learn about SM work.
Ciao
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You want me to lay down a whole US DOLLAR Chuck!, have you seen the exchange rate these days:) I couldn't weld like that even in my dreams. As an aside I met a guy around the corner a few weeks ago with a triple garage full of equipment so I stopped for a chat. He's a retired sheet metal worker that sold his business restoring/rebuilding bodywork on classic/vintage/veteran cars. He showed me albums full of the projects he's tackled over the years. When he closed down he kept all his equipment and now does stuff from home just to keep his hand in. When the lockdown ends I'm going to see if he can teach me his sheet metals skills. I have a hankering to build a replica V11 fuel tank from alloy and learn about SM work.
Ciao
That would be awesome. There are very few old time sheet metal people left.
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(https://i.ibb.co/8zX87N9/PA-PI2013-177.jpg) (https://ibb.co/8zX87N9)
That is beautiful workmanship, a real craftsman did that work!
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You want me to lay down a whole US DOLLAR Chuck!, have you seen the exchange rate these days:) I couldn't weld like that even in my dreams. As an aside I met a guy around the corner a few weeks ago with a triple garage full of equipment so I stopped for a chat. He's a retired sheet metal worker that sold his business restoring/rebuilding bodywork on classic/vintage/veteran cars. He showed me albums full of the projects he's tackled over the years. When he closed down he kept all his equipment and now does stuff from home just to keep his hand in. When the lockdown ends I'm going to see if he can teach me his sheet metals skills. I have a hankering to build a replica V11 fuel tank from alloy and learn about SM work.
Ciao
Metal shaping is great to do, especially with the right old Masters to teach you. Good to hear you've got a connection to a real veteran. There's lots of snake oil salesmen out there now to avoid, selling the latest widgets and hat trick work around.
I've been busy lately working on my shops, with no spare time for actual metal projects. I'm still learning & anxious to get back into working on V700 Corsa Record project. It will be nice to update the build thread.
Also want to improve my replica 1960's Holman Moody NASCAR cowl plenum air cleaner assembly for my 67 Galaxie so I can install it. I used some basic power tools to make the wooden buck & radial hammerforms before shaping this project entirely by hand. Fancy $$ tools may expedite a project but they aren't always necessary.
(https://i.ibb.co/FH5Tk5x/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/FH5Tk5x)
(https://i.ibb.co/KDn715v/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/KDn715v)
My free advice- go ahead and start practicing welding sheet metal (crs or alloy) with a gas torch. No matter what you make, you'll need to be able readily & successfully join the pieces you shape.
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This was Bronze welded, my bad. The guy who did this makes Seeley and Egli replica frames. not a lot about him on the internet.
(https://i.ibb.co/dbTPFJ1/proxy.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dbTPFJ1)
the frame looks grey from the media blasting. I thought about sanding and cleaning, but since retirement from racing in the very late '80's it's had a few mods to the back that aren't very pretty. It needs a lot of love. ( time /money)
The hole in the frame is for cable routing, I think.
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That is beautiful workmanship, a real craftsman did that work!
Yes its art.
How about this from Akrapovic. These are Titanium and hand welded by women in the factory dedicated to the job. I have an Akra full TI system on my 1198 and its equally as good. This is the quality you get from Akra no matter if you're the Honda works team of a customer off the street. This is at least as good as any Titanium welding I've seen on a jet in the last 45 years.
Ciao
(https://i.ibb.co/pfgrDcD/1199-Ex-04.jpg) (https://ibb.co/pfgrDcD)
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The process of welding requires that the parts being joined are heated to the point where they melt and mix with the filler material to create a bond. (TIG, MIG, SMAW, doesn't matter)
Brazing requires that the parts being joined are heated to the melting temperature of the filler material. That temperature is often below the melting temperature of the parts being joined. The strength of the joint is dependent upon the strength of the filler material and its adhesion to the parts being joined.
The frame is brazed, not welded! Brazing is easier on things like chromoly because of the lower temperatures required. When welding alloy steel it us not uncommon to shield the inside of the tube with an inert gas. This complicates the procedure.
So actually brazing is more or less like a gluing process, the molten brass being the glue?
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Yes.
Brazing filler adheres to a surface to form the bond. The filler does not penetrate or mix with the metals being joined.
Welding filler melts into and mixes with the metals being joined.
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Yes.
Brazing filler adheres to a surface to form the bond. The filler does not penetrate or mix with the metals being joined.
Welding filler melts into and mixes with the metals being joined.
But brazing is not as strong in most cases as welding, right? and what is the rule of thumb when deciding which method to use?
I asking for some information here because I have both a 110 welder as well as gas tanks, welding tips and cutting torch. In my youth I’ve did a lot of both while working in a car frame repair shop but it’s been 40 years since and my actual technical training was non existent, just a “do this do that” type of job but I did get good at both methods.
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The joining method must be secure enough for the job at hand.
The joining method must not damage or weaken the structure.
I built my recumbent bicycle with 4130 and Silbond 45 because it was strong enough. AND even with my heavy handed technique borne of lack of experience I probably would not damage the 4130 tubes by overheating them with my air/acetylene torch.
Welding instructor said you could do anything with oxy/acetylene torch and if you only had one method the torch was the do-all of the trade.
Friend built a go-cart with his torch and coat hanger wire as the filler. Kids never managed to break it.
Others here with far more experience can offer suggestions.
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Let me just say, coat hangers ain't what they used to was!
Brian
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But brazing is not as strong in most cases as welding, right? and what is the rule of thumb when deciding which method to use?
I asking for some information here because I have both a 110 welder as well as gas tanks, welding tips and cutting torch. In my youth I’ve did a lot of both while working in a car frame repair shop but it’s been 40 years since and my actual technical training was non existent, just a “do this do that” type of job but I did get good at both methods.
No Bronze rod doesn't have the same tensile strength as steel but that's not the only consideration. The main reason for the Bronze welding is that it provides a nice wide fillet joining the two structures which gives a dispersed load path for the stress from one piece to the other. This is important in a structure that isn't necessarily perfectly triangulated. In a triangulated structure you can go with TIG and a nice fine weld because the structure has in most cases a single load path in the correct direction. Ultimate rigidity in a frame as most would know these days is also not something desired or aimed for so ultimate tensile strength of the weld material in a well designed frame isn't necessarily important or desirable.
The other advantage to Bronze is as others have mentioned the grain structure of the parent material isn't affected or compromised. The ultimate tensile strength for the filler material often isn't the main consideration as even the bronze weld is much stronger than it needs to be in application. It "may" be less crash worthy but that's very hard to analyse. Ken Macintosh the Kiwi race frame builder at one time used to make his frames from material other than Chrome Molly and when asked why said that although CR-MO has a higher yield strength it didn't have any advantages in providing better rigidity. It may have survived a massive crash better but he thought if the crash was bad enough to deform his non CR-MO frame the frame would be destroyed anyway.
As you can probably tell from the images Bronze welding isn't exactly something that can be described as a low or moderately skill-full endeavour and that's the reason you don't see it in commercial applications. Same reason TIG was replaced with MIG in production because it basically cheaper, easier and faster and can be robotised. My 3 MV Agustas I owned in the early 2000's all had beautifully TIG welded frames but now all have MIG welding and have had for some time...sigh.
Interestingly Casey Stoner said that when he was racing the factory Ducati MotoGP bikes with the welded steel tube frames the biggest issue he had was that no 2 frames felt the same. he postulated that all the welded joints and the possible variations that introduced could be the issue as ally beam frames seemed more consistent. Interesting observation. True or not I don't know, KTM MotoGP guys dont seem to have an issue these days.
Ciao
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Metal shaping is great to do, especially with the right old Masters to teach you. Good to hear you've got a connection to a real veteran. There's lots of snake oil salesmen out there now to avoid, selling the latest widgets and hat trick work around.
I've been busy lately working on my shops, with no spare time for actual metal projects. I'm still learning & anxious to get back into working on V700 Corsa Record project. It will be nice to update the build thread.
Also want to improve my replica 1960's Holman Moody NASCAR cowl plenum air cleaner assembly for my 67 Galaxie so I can install it. I used some basic power tools to make the wooden buck & radial hammerforms before shaping this project entirely by hand. Fancy $$ tools may expedite a project but they aren't always necessary.
(https://i.ibb.co/FH5Tk5x/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/FH5Tk5x)
(https://i.ibb.co/KDn715v/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/KDn715v)
My free advice- go ahead and start practicing welding sheet metal (crs or alloy) with a gas torch. No matter what you make, you'll need to be able readily & successfully join the pieces you shape.
Nicely done, I'm keen to learn the sheet metal skills.
Ciao
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Interestingly Casey Stoner said that when he was racing the factory Ducati MotoGP bikes with the welded steel tube frames the biggest issue he had was that no 2 frames felt the same. he postulated that all the welded joints and the possible variations that introduced could be the issue as ally beam frames seemed more consistent. Interesting observation. True or not I don't know, KTM MotoGP guys dont seem to have an issue these days.
Ciao
Kevin Cameron did on recent article on Ducati frames. The frames flexed, by design or accident and it allowed the bike to corner better. Ducati riders said they "dug it " during cornering. The frames allowed some lateral flex. When Honda was chasing Ducati ,the Honda frames were too stiff..It took Honda a lot of money and research to figure this out.. Of course some riders preferred this , some not.
I have several vintage Triumph land speed racers. One has a modified stock frame, the other a hanbuilt frame. I am an average hobbyist welder using MIG and TIG. Tech inspection is tough and non factory brazed joints would be very suspect. Same for automotive racing roll cages, brazed joints may not be allowed...
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Kevin Cameron did on recent article on Ducati frames. The frames flexed, by design or accident and it allowed the bike to corner better. Ducati riders said they "dug it " during cornering. The frames allowed some lateral flex. When Honda was chasing Ducati ,the Honda frames were too stiff..It took Honda a lot of money and research to figure this out.. Of course some riders preferred this , some not.
I have several vintage Triumph land speed racers. One has a modified stock frame, the other a hanbuilt frame. I am an average hobbyist welder using MIG and TIG. Tech inspection is tough and non factory brazed joints would be very suspect. Same for automotive racing roll cages, brazed joints may not be allowed...
Yes frame flex is engineered in these days and absolutely necessary and fundamental. Here's a clue, You see race and superbikes with long front engine mounts not short. So the mounts from the steering head area down to the front of the engine. They naturally went shorter and shorter for a few years there until they found they were too stiff and the chassis didn't flex enough. They all now use as long a front mount arms as they can looking for the magic flex. Triple clamps and swingarm pivots are another area, esp the s/a pivot. They used to be very robust but have been pared down over the years looking for controlled flex.
It's still more art than science but science has a big part now. The Ducati carbon box concept was an interesting methodology that ducati were pursuing and the desirable flex was engineered by arranging the lay of the carbon weave. Problem was that Stoner left Ducati and Rossi wanted an alloy beam frame so that avenue of endeavour was abandoned. maybe it will come back.
Ciao
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^ Interesting that you make mention of the swing-arm mount . Quite a few years ago when Yamaha was just getting into flat track racing, they
made a frame that had allowed rake and trail changes and various swing-arm mount locations , apparently they found the swing-arm location ( up & down)
had the greatest effect on it's handling . Peter
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I have a dollar that says that's TIG. The color fades too rapidly near the joint. Doesn't matter.. it's nice work, however it was done. I, personally, have never been able to do that "stack of dimes" with a torch.
Chuck what exactly is the stack of dimes your referring to? In High school we could earn an A in welding class by
1 If we could use a torch to “weld” a penny on end to the bottom of a coke can.
2 use a stick welder start with 1/8 inch 1x4 flat steel and build it up to 1/2 thickness the entire width and length, the instructor would cut through in two places any inclusions only a C , we spent hours in the booths smoking cigarettes and trying to earn the A, I managed the penny to the bottom of the can, but never mastered the build up. 50 years latter I’m slowly improving my mig and tig skills.
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^ Interesting that you make mention of the swing-arm mount . Quite a few years ago when Yamaha was just getting into flat track racing, they
made a frame that had allowed rake and trail changes and various swing-arm mount locations , apparently they found the swing-arm location ( up & down)
had the greatest effect on it's handling . Peter
Yes, different reason to flex but the height adjustment has an effect on chain pull. Because most bikes have what is referred to "swingarm droop" that is the angle of the arm from the pivot to the rear axle drops you get rising rear ride height during acceleration due to chain pull from the top run of the chain. Just like a shaft drive bike without a torsion bar design. So under acceleration the rear suspension tends to extend not squat. It's not only the droop though as the pivot height in relation to the gearbox countershaft position is also a factor as is the size of the rear sprocket. This is why on a GP bike gearing changes are critical to chassis performance and why they try to keep the rear sprocket as close in dia as possible to each other by changing the countershaft sprocket as well sometimes to get the gearing right. It also minimises the lengthening or shortening of the swingarm to achieve the correct chain tension. So the swingarm pivot location is another variable to the effect of chain pull and therefore rear suspension extension during acceleration. Rear suspension extension during acceleration affects traction and the transfer of weight to the rear and away from the front. So on a GP bike from the apex when you get on the throttle you dont want the bike to squat at all, you want the rear suspension to extend which helps keep the front wheel weighed and the steering geometry steep so it doesn't unload the front tyre and you lose traction and/or the bike doesn't tend to understeer out of the corner and want to run wide. Now days Ducati have a squatting system that compresses the rear shock on late corner exit so the rear has more traction. This system as I said is in effect pretty much after all the turning has been done and the bike is in the transition phase to almost upright or you would negate all the benefits of rear suspension extension from the initial apex point. This also negates the negative from having suspension extension during corner exit in that the bike is more prone to wheeling so the squatting system helps with this as when the bike is wheeling either the rider needs to roll off, use a little rear brake of the anti wheelie software pull out some engine torque to control it and that costs time and drive.
On a flat tracker the pivot adjustment would be for much the same reason although I'd say the rear traction would be the major thing they would be chasing more than the front steering.
Ciao
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Chuck what exactly is the stack of dimes your referring to?
See that picture I posted of 8 tubes coming together? The ripples in the weld are commonly referred to as a stack of dimes if they are all the same. It happens each time you dab the filler into the puddle, normally at about one a second, depending on the job. There is a little skill involved. :grin:
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More than a little skill, nice welds look like a stack of dimes, and my welds look like someone fed solder to a duck, and I smeared it around randomly via the ducks keister .
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https://soranews24.com/2020/09/07/a-chain-of-welding-theme-parks-is-opening-in-japan/
I knew fire, sparks, molten metal and the crackle of electric arcs had to appeal to the masses.
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More than a little skill, nice welds look like a stack of dimes, and my welds look like someone fed solder to a duck, and I smeared it around randomly via the ducks keister .
That describes my welding bike exactly!
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It's not all that hard to have brazing with the ripples that appear similar to the Tig welding stacking of dimes . Nothing a few thousand hours of
practice won't help :) . Peter
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I stumbled across a nice instructional video and remembered this thread https://youtu.be/fWF0zCcXR5A
I would have used a little more of an oxidizing flame with a smaller tip but it wouldn’t be as pretty.
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How about the quality weld on the steering head?
(https://i.ibb.co/3h5wqkg/brazed-frame-1-LI-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3h5wqkg)