New project, nice welding

[Turin]

A while back I bought an Ex Raceco UK racebike frame. Yup, restoring another ex racebike. Lotta work ahead.

Anyway, the frame builder (Andy Sidlow) built this old school. I just got it back from media blasting. look at these brazed / bronze welds.

will start a build thread.

[lucky phil]

Yes bronze welding has advantages over TIG and MIG but requires a lot of skill to do well. Good luck with the build.

Ciao

[Chuck in Indiana]

Yes bronze welding has advantages over TIG and MIG but requires a lot of skill to do well. Good luck with the build.

Ciao

I've done a lot of it. As far as I'm concerned it's easier than welding.
Nice welds? See below.. not mine, unfortunately,

[fotoguzzi]

Nice! What's the hole for in the x brace?  Is that grey the natural color of the metal ? Looks like paint.

[Rough Edge racing]

 Brazing and welding are not the same process from what I know. Yes? Usually chrome moly tubing was brazed rather than welded.

[SIR REAL ED]

A while back I bought an Ex Raceco UK racebike frame. Yup, restoring another ex racebike. Lotta work ahead.

Anyway, the frame builder (Andy Sidlow) built this old school. I just got it back from media blasting. look at these brazed / bronze welds.

will start a build thread.

If you are open to opinions, I vote for a clear coat finish on the frame.  Better to show off those brazed joints than hide them.

[SIR REAL ED]

I've done a lot of it. As far as I'm concerned it's easier than welding.
Nice welds? See below.. not mine, unfortunately,

Back in the day when I did both, I would agree.  Unfortunately due to lack of recent practice, I've lost those skills.

[lucky phil]

Brazing and welding are not the same process from what I know. Yes? Usually chrome moly tubing was brazed rather than welded.

Bronze welding is different from brazing which is different from TIG which is different from MIG.English frames like Seeley and Rickman as well as Egli etc were usually bronze welded, as were Mcintosh frames.

This is Bronze welding, not brazing which it is commonly confused with. It's an art form as well as arguably mechanically superior to TIG in a Motorcycle chassis application.

 



Ciao

[lucky phil]

If you are open to opinions, I vote for a clear coat finish on the frame.  Better to show off those brazed joints than hide them.

In this instance there're not pretty enough for that.

Ciao

[Chuck in Indiana]

Nice! What's the hole for in the x brace?  Is that grey the natural color of the metal ? Looks like paint.

It's just an exercise in welding thin wall tubing. To do a good job of TIG, the base material has to be scrupulously clean. Most likely bead blast.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Bronze welding is different from brazing which is different from TIG which is different from MIG.English frames like Seeley and Rickman as well as Egli etc were usually bronze welded, as were Mcintosh frames.

This is Bronze welding, not brazing which it is commonly confused with. It's an art form as well as arguably mechanically superior to TIG in a Motorcycle chassis application.

 



Ciao

That is nicely done. Looks like TIG with bronze filler to me.

[RinkRat II]

       

Nice! What's the hole for in the x brace?

  That is where you funnel in all the money 

    Great project, standing by for updates

      Paul B

[n3303j]

The process of welding requires that the parts being joined are heated to the point where they melt and mix with the filler material to create a bond. (TIG, MIG, SMAW, doesn't matter)

Brazing requires that the parts being joined are heated to the melting temperature of the filler material. That temperature is often below the melting temperature of the parts being joined. The strength of the joint is dependent upon the strength of the filler material and its adhesion to the parts being joined.

The frame is brazed, not welded! Brazing is easier on things like chromoly because of the lower temperatures required. When welding alloy steel it us not uncommon to shield the inside of the tube with an inert gas. This complicates the procedure.

[fotoguzzi]

         That is where you funnel in all the money 

Very good!

[wymple]

"as well as Egli"

I didn't know anybody else remembered him.

[Ncdan]

I've done a lot of it. As far as I'm concerned it's easier than welding.
Nice welds? See below.. not mine, unfortunately,

It’s been quite a few years since I’ve done any brazing but to the best on my recollection you only have to liquify the brazing rod and just heat the other two
Materials good and red, correct?

[n3303j]

It’s been quite a few years since I’ve done any brazing but to the best on my recollection you only have to liquify the brazing rod and just heat the other two
Materials good and red, correct?

That'll git 'er done comply.

Trek built brazed bike frames by dropping filler material rings inside (or wherever necessary) on a jigged frame and then heating the areas until the rings melted and flowed.

I reworked a Bob Jackson trike for a friend and did all the brazing with eutectic silver filler. That material melted around 1,200 Fahrenheit. Plenty of margin between that temp and the one that will damage 4130 cromoly. That filler is not cheap.

[Chuck in Indiana]

That filler is not cheap.

You've got that right.  It might have something to do with "silver" in the name.

[n3303j]

You've got that right.  It might have something to do with "silver" in the name.

Actually not. I bought the eutectic solder back when silver was cheap and still paid about four times the price I paid for Silbond 45.

[lucky phil]

That is nicely done. Looks like TIG with bronze filler to me.

Maybe Chuck but an expert at Bronze welding can do this with a torch. Judging by the distribution of parent metal discolouration I'd have said a torch but these days might have been a TIG. All those 60's and 70's bespoke frame builders used a torch and got results like this. Hard to believe i know.

Ciao

[Chuck in Indiana]

Maybe Chuck but an expert at Bronze welding can do this with a torch. Judging by the distribution of parent metal discolouration I'd have said a torch but these days might have been a TIG. All those 60's and 70's bespoke frame builders used a torch and got results like this. Hard to believe i know.

Ciao

I have a dollar that says that's TIG. The color fades too rapidly near the joint. Doesn't matter.. it's nice work, however it was done. I, personally, have never been able to do that "stack of dimes" with a torch.

[lucky phil]

I have a dollar that says that's TIG. The color fades too rapidly near the joint. Doesn't matter.. it's nice work, however it was done. I, personally, have never been able to do that "stack of dimes" with a torch.

You want me to lay down a whole US DOLLAR Chuck!, have you seen the exchange rate these days:) I couldn't weld like that even in my dreams. As an aside I met a guy around the corner a few weeks ago with a triple garage full of equipment so I stopped for a chat. He's a retired sheet metal worker that sold his business restoring/rebuilding bodywork on classic/vintage/veteran cars. He showed me albums full of the projects he's tackled over the years. When he closed down he kept all his equipment and now does stuff from home just to keep his hand in. When the lockdown ends I'm going to see if he can teach me his sheet metals skills. I have a hankering to build a replica V11 fuel tank from alloy and learn about SM work.

Ciao 

[Chuck in Indiana]

You want me to lay down a whole US DOLLAR Chuck!, have you seen the exchange rate these days:) I couldn't weld like that even in my dreams. As an aside I met a guy around the corner a few weeks ago with a triple garage full of equipment so I stopped for a chat. He's a retired sheet metal worker that sold his business restoring/rebuilding bodywork on classic/vintage/veteran cars. He showed me albums full of the projects he's tackled over the years. When he closed down he kept all his equipment and now does stuff from home just to keep his hand in. When the lockdown ends I'm going to see if he can teach me his sheet metals skills. I have a hankering to build a replica V11 fuel tank from alloy and learn about SM work.

Ciao

That would be awesome. There are very few old time sheet metal people left.

[Canuck750]

 

That is beautiful workmanship, a real craftsman did that work!

[cliffrod]

You want me to lay down a whole US DOLLAR Chuck!, have you seen the exchange rate these days:) I couldn't weld like that even in my dreams. As an aside I met a guy around the corner a few weeks ago with a triple garage full of equipment so I stopped for a chat. He's a retired sheet metal worker that sold his business restoring/rebuilding bodywork on classic/vintage/veteran cars. He showed me albums full of the projects he's tackled over the years. When he closed down he kept all his equipment and now does stuff from home just to keep his hand in. When the lockdown ends I'm going to see if he can teach me his sheet metals skills. I have a hankering to build a replica V11 fuel tank from alloy and learn about SM work.

Ciao

Metal shaping is great to do, especially with the right old Masters to teach you.  Good to hear you've got a connection to a real veteran.  There's lots of snake oil salesmen out there now to avoid, selling the latest widgets and hat trick work around. 

I've been busy lately working on my shops, with no spare time for actual metal projects.  I'm still learning & anxious to get back into working on V700 Corsa Record project.  It will be nice to update the build thread. 

Also want to improve my replica 1960's Holman Moody NASCAR cowl plenum air cleaner assembly for my 67 Galaxie so I can install it.  I used some basic power tools to make the wooden buck & radial hammerforms before shaping this project entirely by hand.  Fancy $$ tools may expedite a project but they aren't always necessary.









My free advice- go ahead and start practicing welding sheet metal (crs or alloy) with a gas torch.  No matter what you make, you'll need to be able readily & successfully join the pieces you shape.

[Turin]

This was Bronze welded, my bad. The guy who did this makes Seeley and Egli replica frames. not a lot about him on the internet.




the frame looks grey from the media blasting. I thought about sanding and cleaning, but since retirement from racing in the very late '80's it's had a few mods to the back that aren't very pretty. It needs a lot of love. ( time /money)

The hole in the frame is for cable routing, I think.

[lucky phil]

That is beautiful workmanship, a real craftsman did that work!

Yes its art.
How about this from Akrapovic. These are Titanium and hand welded by women in the factory dedicated to the job. I have an Akra full TI system on my 1198 and its equally as good. This is the quality you get from Akra no matter if you're the Honda works team of a customer off the street. This is at least as good as any Titanium welding I've seen on a jet in the last 45 years.

Ciao



 

[Ncdan]

The process of welding requires that the parts being joined are heated to the point where they melt and mix with the filler material to create a bond. (TIG, MIG, SMAW, doesn't matter)

Brazing requires that the parts being joined are heated to the melting temperature of the filler material. That temperature is often below the melting temperature of the parts being joined. The strength of the joint is dependent upon the strength of the filler material and its adhesion to the parts being joined.

The frame is brazed, not welded! Brazing is easier on things like chromoly because of the lower temperatures required. When welding alloy steel it us not uncommon to shield the inside of the tube with an inert gas. This complicates the procedure.

So actually brazing is more or less like a gluing process, the molten brass being the glue?

[n3303j]

Yes.

Brazing filler adheres to a surface to form the bond. The filler does not penetrate or mix with the metals being joined.

Welding filler melts into and mixes with the metals being joined.

[Ncdan]

Yes.

Brazing filler adheres to a surface to form the bond. The filler does not penetrate or mix with the metals being joined.

Welding filler melts into and mixes with the metals being joined.

But brazing is not as strong in most cases as welding, right? and what is the rule of thumb when deciding which method to use?
I asking for some information here because I have both a 110 welder as well as gas tanks, welding tips and cutting torch. In my youth I’ve did a lot of both while working in a car frame repair shop but it’s been 40 years since and my actual technical training was non existent, just a “do this do that” type of job but I did get good at both methods.