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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Arctic Fox on December 08, 2020, 07:45:46 AM

Title: Steering damper
Post by: Arctic Fox on December 08, 2020, 07:45:46 AM
What is the benefit of motorcycles's steering dampers? My Nevada does not have one, but I assume some bigger Moto Guzzi models have those?
If you have one and you would take it away, how/what would you notice?

Are those used only with much heavier bikes (because of weight?) or more power full bikes (helps if riding really fast?) Or are those just come to common use in few years time (my bike being simply too old?).







 
Title: Re: Steering damper
Post by: john fish on December 08, 2020, 08:02:10 AM
I have an '00 Jackal and an '03 Stone.  Took it off the Stone and left it on the Jackal and notice no difference in handling between the two.  I was told by a good Guzzi mechanic that a steering damper on a Tonti frame is probably useless.
Title: Re: Steering damper
Post by: Roebling3 on December 08, 2020, 08:32:48 AM
Ever experience a 'tank slapper'?  The typical after thought is; I gotta get one of those things. If you ride bikes w/clip-ons or short handle bars you don't have as much leverage. Tank slappers often occur rather suddenly, under varied conditions and are sometimes violent. A steering damper can reduce your anxiety.

Under conditions like powering out of a down hill curve and the frt loosing traction a tank slapper can occur spontaneously and be a learning experience. My most recent TS was induced on an up hill curve, loosing traction by riding over an unseen vinyl disc. Be careful out there.  R3~
Title: Re: Steering damper
Post by: Wildroamer on December 08, 2020, 09:36:17 AM
Thread drift warning....
I've never experienced a tank slapper, but on videos I've seen, they look like they might cause me to soil myself.
Loosen grip on bar and pray, is that pretty much the survival technique recommended?
Title: Re: Steering damper
Post by: Ncdan on December 08, 2020, 09:41:03 AM
I have an '00 Jackal and an '03 Stone.  Took it off the Stone and left it on the Jackal and notice no difference in handling between the two.  I was told by a good Guzzi mechanic that a steering damper on a Tonti frame is probably useless.
I’m with you John. I’ve had bikes with and with out and can’t tell any difference. On the bikes I’ve had and have now, with them, I’ve adjusted them all the way in both directions and can’t tell a bit of different on the same trial run roads and conditions.
That being said. I guess there’s a possibility that it’s one of those things that you can’t tell that it offers any effects until conditions call on it, then it does it’s job.
I don’t think I would ever remove one that the engineers at the factory felt the need to install on a given model.
Title: Re: Steering damper
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on December 08, 2020, 10:26:52 AM
The Guzzi "door closer" isn't really very good. The Mighty Scura has an Ohlins, and it is. The difference from full to no damping is fairly subtle, though.
Title: Re: Steering damper
Post by: John Croucher on December 08, 2020, 11:09:13 AM
First thing to do is remove the rubber bushings in the handlebar risers attachments on the triple tree. 

Sit on your bike, turn the bar to the left against the stop and then continue pushing and you will see the bar end move another 1-1/2 inch.  Now turn to the right against the stop and continue pushing another 1-1/2 inch.  This will give you a good picture of how sloppy your handlebars are while riding down the road. 

I tossed the rubber bushings and made up some solid metal spacers to replace them and bolted the risers straight to the triple tree.

I added a "real" steering damper on my 1100 Tonti bike.  It makes a big difference when riding at higher speeds or on curvy roads.  I can reach down and make adjustments while riding when needed.

I removed the regulator/rectifier and made a 3/8 x 1 x 5 inch bracket.  Attached the reg/rect back onto this bracket and attached the bracket back onto the frame.  The excess length is extended out to the left side of the bike.  I tapped the hole in the bottom left side of the triple tree for a M10 screw.  Attaching the dampner between the bracket and the screw in the triple tree.  I will have to take some pictures and post them up. 

Title: Re: Steering damper
Post by: ahaussmann123 on December 08, 2020, 11:14:10 AM
Thread drift warning....
I've never experienced a tank slapper, but on videos I've seen, they look like they might cause me to soil myself.
Loosen grip on bar and pray, is that pretty much the survival technique recommended?

Tank slappers happen! More often on sportbikes than cruisers or traditional cycles.

When in doubt... throttle it out...

There's no real technique to it, just keep changing what you're doing (bit of gas, bit of brake) until the bike stabilizes. Sometimes I've had to give some gas, sometimes I give it a bit of brake, if one doesn't work to smooth it out I try the other :P. It's not that scary.... only inaction would result in tragedy!

Steering dampers help, but don't eliminate this issue. Think of it as a third fork, for your steering instead of your wheel itself. It can create a smoother ride, and help when you hit bumps. On supersports the front wheel is off the ground a lot, exposing you to potential slappers when you lower the wheel a bit crooked. A quality steering damper on track bikes is absolutely a worthwhile investment, otherwise, eh imo.
Title: Re: Steering damper
Post by: ampm7 on December 08, 2020, 11:45:26 AM
I've had them on nearly all my bikes particularly sport bikes because of the rake and trail. Quite some years ago, I bought a Suzuki GSXR750 and rode it home from the shop and I said to myself 'this thing is positively dangerous'. The front wheel was very erratic and would not stay planted. I noticed after getting it home, that there was no steering damper. I put on a Scott's (one of the best) and problem solved. Those fellows that say they can't tell if they are working or not need to put on a good one. And yes, you will notice a difference especially going down the freeway with rain grooves and a stiff wind. It is particularly handy to have one that you can adjust on the fly as having a lot of tension for high speed will not work for low speed maneuvering. After a while, the Guzzi ones will run out of steam and need to be replaced. As I am doing right now on my EV...
Title: Re: Steering damper
Post by: Tom on December 08, 2020, 01:21:34 PM
Thread drift warning....
I've never experienced a tank slapper, but on videos I've seen, they look like they might cause me to soil myself.
Loosen grip on bar and pray, is that pretty much the survival technique recommended?

Let your arms be the damper.  DO NOT stiff arm the bars.  Shut down your throttle.  DO NOT downshift or hit the brakes.  Ride it out.
Title: Re: Steering damper
Post by: chuck peterson on December 09, 2020, 08:50:38 AM
I’m with Roebling3 on this...

On the street they (steering dampers) kick in during an instantaneous energetic release of energy tank slapper that’ll throw you off of the bike...you can’t keep your hands in control of, or even on, the handlebars. The bars are ripped back and forth from your hands its so fast.

I’ve had the experience on an r60/2 after hitting a dog...luckily i was going straight...about 6-7-8 high frequency left/right on the front wheel so the bars went crazy...instantaneo us.

Surprised it didn’t break a few fingers

My impression is steering dampers on street bikes are for that kind of situation

Racetrack, racing is a whole another magnitude but does the same thing, plus

Some 70s bike have a damper thru the head...large wheel on top
Title: Re: Steering damper
Post by: Wildroamer on December 09, 2020, 09:52:24 AM
Thanks AH124 and Tom! Hope to never need to deal with it, but will keep your suggestions somewhere in my mellon, hopefully within easy reach, haha!
Title: Re: Steering damper
Post by: bigbikerrick on December 09, 2020, 09:59:30 AM
On my 73 Eldo, with the big "buffalo" fairing, the steering damper helps. I had to go with a good quality aftermarket damper though. On my Tonti bikes, they seemed to make no real difference.
Rick.
Title: Re: Steering damper
Post by: lucky phil on December 09, 2020, 04:28:48 PM
Let your arms be the damper.  DO NOT stiff arm the bars.  Shut down your throttle.  DO NOT downshift or hit the brakes.  Ride it out.

These sort of quotes always make me laugh. In a full blooded tank slapper you dont get the opportunity to do any of that. What your referring to is a head shake or weave which may be the pre curser to a proper tank slapper. I had a massive one coming out of turn 12 at Phillip Island going back a few years on my GSXR1000 track bike. The track drops away on the exit and hard on the gas it would pick the front wheel up an inch or two, speed maybe around the 170kph mark. This time however when the wheel came down it decided to go into a massive lock to lock tank slapper (yes I felt it hitting the stops) and all I could do was try and keep hold of the bars. There was zero chance of applying any form or technique, way to violent for that. I just thought I'm going to be off this thing on the straight for gods sake which will look pretty dumb to those watching from the pit wall. The bike did straightened itself out by some miracle and I arrived at turn 1 with the no front brakes such was the violence of the event which had knocked the brake pads back into the callipers. I was prepared for this though and a few pumps had them back again.
I replaced the std Suzuki steering damper for the next track appearance with an Ohlins unit. So for a weave or head shake you will have time to apply some technique but for a full blooded instantaneous tank slapper all you can do is hang on and hope I'm afraid.
Ciao   
Title: Re: Steering damper
Post by: Arctic Fox on December 09, 2020, 05:19:07 PM
On my 73 Eldo, with the big "buffalo" fairing, the steering damper helps. I had to go with a good quality aftermarket damper though. On my Tonti bikes, they seemed to make no real difference.
Rick.

Just curiosity ... what is Tonti bike?

With low power & light weight bikes like small Moto Guzzi Nevada ... there would not be any benefits to have one of those (aftermarket)?
For example installed between front fork and crash bar?
Title: Re: Steering damper
Post by: pebra on December 14, 2020, 04:54:28 PM
Just curiosity ... what is Tonti bike?

With low power & light weight bikes like small Moto Guzzi Nevada ... there would not be any benefits to have one of those (aftermarket)?
For example installed between front fork and crash bar?

Hi, sorry you had to wait so long, I was certain someone would have informed you already!

Tonti was an Italian motorbike engineer who devised the frame for the V7 Sport in 1971 - this was the start of the beloved big block Tonti frame lineage which was so important for Guzzi for a long time. Does the 1400 series, which is still being made, have a Tonti frame?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lino_Tonti

Google "Tonti frame" and you'll find lots of interesting stuff, also on this board.
Title: Re: Steering damper
Post by: john fish on December 15, 2020, 09:58:21 AM
With low power & light weight bikes like small Moto Guzzi Nevada ... there would not be any benefits to have one of those (aftermarket)?
For example installed between front fork and crash bar?

I haven't heard of the small blocks (like your Nevada) being equipped with, or needing, a steering damper.  If your bike didn't come with one from the factory, you are probably OK going without a steering damper.

There are many, many, people here more knowledgeable than I am.  Let's hope some well-informed small block owners chime in soon.
Title: Re: Steering damper
Post by: ampm7 on December 15, 2020, 10:08:10 AM
No, the 1400 does not have a Tonti frame.
Title: Re: Steering damper
Post by: philwarner on December 15, 2020, 10:46:56 AM

Some 70s bike have a damper thru the head...large wheel on top

Years ago in College I had a 66 Yamaha 305 Cross Country Sport with a friction steering damper on the head with a big black knob to adjust it, and I did experience some oscillations on that bike that increasing the friction would help reduce.  I was carrying the bike in the back of a pickup on a vacation in Savannah Ga when a dump truck crossed the center line and knocked my truck into a concrete bridge abutment at 35 MPH resulting in a very rapid stop and the bike hitting the front of the bed with enough force to bend the fork legs.  After a stint in the hospital with a broken jaw and getting the bike back home to Ohio. I tried to straighten the forks but only managed to make them equally bent so I put the bend toward the front which increased the trail and all but eliminated the tendency toward tank slapping.

Just after the wreck in 1968 with my totaled ford truck in the background

(https://i.ibb.co/TcSrBsC/My-66-Yamaha-305-AUG-1968-after-Georgia-wreck-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/TcSrBsC)

(https://i.ibb.co/cDzCbd2/My-66-Yamaha-305-AUG-1968-after-Georgia-wreck-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cDzCbd2)



Later in 1971 with a very early Vetter S1000 fairing
(https://i.ibb.co/sqgbTLJ/my-66-Yamaha-305-with-Vetter-S1000-fairing-Mar-1971.jpg) (https://ibb.co/sqgbTLJ)

picture to url (https://imgbb.com/)

I learned just a few years ago that Craig Vetter designed his first fairing around this same year and model Yamaha 305.  The seat is from another bike and I bought it at Spook's Motorcycle Graveyard in Trotwood Ohio where I went to high school, and I just had to add this link to a story I ran across today about Spook
https://motorcycleviews.com/tales/story137.htm


For MG content, My 96 Cali came to me without a steering damper and I haven't found that a problem...yet.
Title: Re: Steering damper
Post by: Tom on December 15, 2020, 01:24:43 PM
Good short read on Spook.  The friction dampers can be rebuilt.  Rod in Honolulu took his apart and used a piece of leather.
Title: Re: Steering damper
Post by: Huzo on December 15, 2020, 01:44:23 PM
The main drama is that a proper tankie is an unstable condition, meaning that the oscillations increase dramatically in amplitude and frequency, each one having more energy than the last. They only stop by themselves if some contributing factor alters..(tyre down force, handlebar resistance...etc)
There needs to be some damping influence that dissipates the energy in the oscillations and this will more than likely be the flapping of your arms as the ‘bars thrash around like a cheap sex toy.
Just “releasing the grip on the ‘bars” will not work as a solution, because the whole thing started as an unstable condition and therefore will not magically fix itself by “riding it out”, each successive oscillatory motion will put more energy into the system than the previous one.
If you try rolling off the throttle on some bikes and releasing your hands on the ‘bars during normal riding, you’ll notice a slight oscillation commence that gets very quickly worse over a couple of seconds, that’s the start of the rot, don’t tempt it too far.
Actually, the bike is countersteering in a crude manner, but as the ‘bars pass through the centre point they continue to the opposite extreme, but by now have had energy imparted and go further than before, so the shit hits the fan.
Also.
We know that the handlebars are in a constant state of oscillation when riding, with imperceptible but very real movements, it has to be. If you suddenly clamped your bars rock solid in normal riding, you will crash in about 3 seconds, a well designed damper mount will have a very small amount of “slap” designed into the bracket to allow for tiny ‘bar movements that do not engage the damper.
I think my MV Agusta did not, but it had an Ohlins damper that provided very little resistance to slow movement, but increasing resistance as the velocity of bar movement rose...(I think it may be a function of the square of the piston velocity).
Those friction things are garbage, because once static friction is overcome it is easier to keep the discs slipping, so the design is a nonsense, it’s all they had back then though.
You might as well have taken a roll of bum fodder and a packet of band aids for post crash attention.
Title: Re: Steering damper
Post by: Tom on December 15, 2020, 04:57:41 PM
Yeah the oem friction damper is just barely usable.  What would suggest for a tank slapper at 145 kph???  This would be on a '96 California 1100i with a touring load on the rear.  No passenger.  Not many options available.
Title: Re: Steering damper
Post by: john fish on December 15, 2020, 05:11:09 PM
I'm curious.  Did any of the small blocks come with steering dampers?
Title: Re: Steering damper
Post by: Tom on December 15, 2020, 05:13:15 PM
I stuck a VW Bug steering damper on my Eldo hack.  It really helped with the stock front end and with tightening up the steering neck bearings. :thumb:
Title: Re: Steering damper
Post by: andrewhush on December 16, 2020, 08:30:33 AM
Phils description above matches exactly what happened to me on a straight dual carriageway pulling back into lane after an overtake at 60ish mph. Might have clipped a catseye road stud. It was all I could do to hold on as the bars flapped lock to lock at about 3 left and right reversals a second. i.e. 6 flaps! Slowing down gently to 50 and everything went back to normal except that the front caliper pistons had been flung back as Phil experienced. Loose cloth panniers, a spada handlebar fairing and no damper might have contributed.

This blast from the past is worth a look

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3Dz3OQTU-kE2s&ved=2ahUKEwiswKa_19LtAhXNa8AKHfMSDjIQjjgwAHoECAMQAQ&usg=AOvVaw3i3o1kor23sDTKVvLo3abl
Title: Re: Steering damper
Post by: DaveJT on December 16, 2020, 09:37:16 AM
Never had any issue with my 2000 Jackal. I’ve run it with and without. It is friction based and it probably gave up the ghost. The key is to get it on a center stand and make sure it moves freely lock to lock and isn’t hanging up. Also a good time to check your steering head bearings. 
And I think it’s best to throttle up and not slow down during a tank slapper.

On my 150cc scooter I had nasty head shake when chopping throttle from maybe 45 mph to 35 mph.  My arms easily absorbed it, but it was definitely there.  When I had the tires changed at the dealership, it pretty much all went away, so maybe the wheel was out of balance. 
Title: Re: Steering damper
Post by: John Croucher on December 16, 2020, 01:46:42 PM

(https://i.ibb.co/ZzJq0cS/20201209-224554.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ZzJq0cS)

(https://i.ibb.co/g91xNM5/20201209-224444.jpg) (https://ibb.co/g91xNM5)

(https://i.ibb.co/NSQ6c4d/20201209-224347.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NSQ6c4d)
Title: Re: Steering damper
Post by: Tom on December 16, 2020, 01:57:09 PM
Never had any issue with my 2000 Jackal. I’ve run it with and without. It is friction based and it probably gave up the ghost. The key is to get it on a center stand and make sure it moves freely lock to lock and isn’t hanging up. Also a good time to check your steering head bearings. 
And I think it’s best to throttle up and not slow down during a tank slapper.

On my 150cc scooter I had nasty head shake when chopping throttle from maybe 45 mph to 35 mph.  My arms easily absorbed it, but it was definitely there.  When I had the tires changed at the dealership, it pretty much all went away, so maybe the wheel was out of balance.

Maybe the air pressure was low.
Title: Re: Steering damper
Post by: DaveJT on December 16, 2020, 02:08:36 PM
Maybe the air pressure was low.

Nope. Well within range.
Title: Re: Steering damper
Post by: ampm7 on December 16, 2020, 02:10:30 PM
John Croucher, did you fit that steering damper to an EV?
Title: Re: Steering damper
Post by: Tom on December 16, 2020, 02:51:44 PM
Nope. Well within range.

Worn tires will give wonky steering.  The V11 Sports will let you know when it's time to change a front tire.   :shocked:  BTDT
Title: Re: Steering damper
Post by: John Croucher on December 16, 2020, 07:11:12 PM
John Croucher, did you fit that steering damper to an EV?

Yes, 2003 model.  I used a piece of 3/8 × 3/4 bar stock to remount Regulatory rectifier and on left end extended and mounted damper bracket.


(https://i.ibb.co/g91xNM5/20201209-224444.jpg) (https://ibb.co/g91xNM5)



(https://i.ibb.co/NSQ6c4d/20201209-224347.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NSQ6c4d)



(https://i.ibb.co/JHks2gK/20201209-224238.jpg) (https://ibb.co/JHks2gK)
Title: Re: Steering damper
Post by: lucky phil on January 25, 2021, 12:14:00 AM
That damper fitment looks very, umm,ummmm, interesting.

Ciao 
Title: Re: Steering damper
Post by: Huzo on January 25, 2021, 05:05:16 AM
That damper fitment looks very, umm,ummmm, interesting.

Ciao
Would probably function acceptably when the ‘bars are central or thereabouts.
But as you intimate, things might get a bit gnarly at full lock in U turns. Suffice to say, that the force vectors on this  one are resolved into one 90 deg to steering stem axis and one parallel to it. It’s the one 90 deg to the stem axis that is doing the “job”.
So from that perspective it’ll work as intended, but some wasted motion exists..
Title: Re: Steering damper
Post by: Huzo on January 25, 2021, 05:20:20 AM
What is the benefit of motorcycles's steering dampers? My Nevada does not have one, but I assume some bigger Moto Guzzi models have those?
If you have one and you would take it away, how/what would you notice?

Are those used only with much heavier bikes (because of weight?) or more power full bikes (helps if riding really fast?) Or are those just come to common use in few years time (my bike being simply too old?).
As mentioned earlier in reply #20, if you were to ride your bike at cruising speed and was able to put a dial gauge against the end of one handlebar, you’d notice a very slight oscillation which is continuous countersteering occurring.
The “damper” is supposed to have a small amount of allowance in the mounting plate to let this minute oscillation occur. If it does not, the bike will enter a never ending (hopefully), series of staggers from one side to the other as the countersteering force manages to overcome the damper.
Not a nice situation.
The damper is not there to quell this oscillatory motion essential to maintain balance, it’s supposed to “catch” the steering movement when it exceeds the necessary range.
If you think for one second that your ‘bars are not flopping from side to side under normal cruising conditions..
Update your life insurance and set up an experiment on a push bike with a length of 10mm square wood 500 mm long.
Secure one end under the seat just below the wedding tackle and the other end on the extremity of one handlebar. As you ride away allow the handlebar to slide over the wood, then take a deep breath and clamp it hard with your hand, essentially to prevent the countersteering process.
Just like my wedding night, you won’t stay upright for long...
Of course a properly designed hydraulic damper has the benefit of variation in resistance as a function of piston velocity.
Put simply it means that if you move your ‘bars slowly the resistance will be small, but will increase exponentially with frequency and amplitude.
Title: Re: Steering damper
Post by: John Croucher on January 25, 2021, 12:37:42 PM
Would probably function acceptably when the ‘bars are central or thereabouts.
But as you intimate, things might get a bit gnarly at full lock in U turns. Suffice to say, that the force vectors on this  one are resolved into one 90 deg to steering stem axis and one parallel to it. It’s the one 90 deg to the stem axis that is doing the “job”.
So from that perspective it’ll work as intended, but some wasted motion exists..

The pictures I posted of my set up are distorted.  The damper is installed 90 degrees from the steering stem and inline with the front to rear of the frame and rotates freely thru the full range of lock to lock.  I works very well with no friction or binding.  It would be a highly unusual situation for the front end to be turned more than a few degrees left or right while underway and cause the loss of resistance or binding as you describe.  The swivel eyes at both mounting point allow smooth movements as it moves and the angles change relative to the lower triple tree and the frame. 

The mounting points for the swivel mounts have to be solid and able to take the shock of the inputs from the front wheel trying to turn. 

Most input's while riding are a slight push in the opposite direction of the turn and the bikes falls into the turn with out over steering.   Turning or having the front rotate 10 or more degrees while riding is situation I would really hate to be in.   

It can easily be reached from the seat to adjust the amount of force.  Increasing the force to move/turn while on the open road or interstate makes a huge difference in tracking.  During load speed and riding on roads with lots of curves, the light setting is much better to allow quicker input movements.  In a parking lot on the most resistance setting and pushing the bike, it is hard to push the bars stop to stop. 

I like the way it works and makes a huge difference while riding for the better.  The old style friction set up is actually quite primitive and not really functional as intended.
Title: Re: Steering damper
Post by: Huzo on January 25, 2021, 01:37:52 PM
The pictures I posted of my set up are distorted.  The damper is installed 90 degrees from the steering stem and inline with the front to rear of the frame and rotates freely thru the full range of lock to lock.  I works very well with no friction or binding.  It would be a highly unusual situation for the front end to be turned more than a few degrees left or right while underway and cause the loss of resistance or binding as you describe.  The swivel eyes at both mounting point allow smooth movements as it moves and the angles change relative to the lower triple tree and the frame. 

The mounting points for the swivel mounts have to be solid and able to take the shock of the inputs from the front wheel trying to turn. 

Most input's while riding are a slight push in the opposite direction of the turn and the bikes falls into the turn with out over steering.   Turning or having the front rotate 10 or more degrees while riding is situation I would really hate to be in.   

It can easily be reached from the seat to adjust the amount of force.  Increasing the force to move/turn while on the open road or interstate makes a huge difference in tracking.  During load speed and riding on roads with lots of curves, the light setting is much better to allow quicker input movements.  In a parking lot on the most resistance setting and pushing the bike, it is hard to push the bars stop to stop. 

I like the way it works and makes a huge difference while riding for the better.  The old style friction set up is actually quite primitive and not really functional as intended.
Ok.
I didn’t raise the point but I did agree it looks like it’s not square and still does, but if you say it is then it is.
A side on shot would have been good.
Title: Re: Steering damper
Post by: dustybarn on January 25, 2021, 09:54:12 PM
I stuck a VW Bug steering damper on my Eldo hack.  It really helped with the stock front end and with tightening up the steering neck bearings. :thumb:

I've got a Bug damper on my Ambo rig. I realized its value when one of the mounting bolts fell out and I got into a nasty headshake, fortunately it happened at low speed in a parking lot.
Title: Re: Steering damper
Post by: John A on January 25, 2021, 11:25:27 PM
I got a Matris from MG cycle twenty years ago and it has been flawless, even after  I put the sidecar on .
A steering  damper is one of those things that you don’t need until you do... https://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=115
Title: Re: Steering damper
Post by: Tom on January 26, 2021, 02:34:10 PM
A steering damper is needed on a hack.
Title: Re: Steering damper
Post by: John A on January 27, 2021, 10:08:41 PM
A steering damper is needed on a hack.





I forgot to say that I’ve only had the hack on for maybe eight years so I’ve tested it . Once in northern Minnesota I was riding in a stiff crosswind so I had the damper one click from full on when it’s usually one click from full off. I rode into a town and it didn’t take long to realize the steering was about locked.
https://youtu.be/tcgCu_pdZ4s   This is a video of a steering damper helping when you hit a deer. (not me)
Title: Re: Steering damper
Post by: BrotherJim on January 28, 2021, 09:06:12 AM
I've found on my '02 CalStone that the long wheelbase tends to offer enough stability that a steering damper is not needed.  For those who don't know much about the particular unit on these bikes, they will say that it looks cool.  I'm running mine with virtually zero tension.  If I'm running luggage with a bit of extra weight or a passenger, I would turn to the preload adjustment of my rear shocks, not a steering damper.  I've always felt like a bike like my Buell S2 Thunderbolt could benefit from a steering damper.  Compared to the Cali, the wheelbase is shorter and the rake of the forks is much steeper, making the handling a lot quicker.  After ten years or so riding the S2 I've learned to live with it, mainly because I didn't want to spend the kind of money being asked for units that work with this bike.  Eric Buell says that adding a steering damper to his bikes is cheating.  :grin: 
Title: Re: Steering damper
Post by: Tom on January 29, 2021, 06:56:38 PM
I ride mostly mountain roads out here.  A steering damper is useful on the hack and on my Cali III.  If it was flat like the Midwest then probably not.   :boozing:
Title: Re: Steering damper
Post by: Tusayan on January 31, 2021, 05:29:44 PM
Tank slappers happen! More often on sportbikes than cruisers or traditional cycles.

FWIW I had a single violent tank slapper on both my early LeMans and 1000 SP...   in both cases with the steering damper removed.  Might be a lesson in there somewhere  :grin: but the old style telescopic dampers made the bike steer strangely when tightened, even hydraulic dampers, just like too tight steering head bearings, so I never liked them.  More recently manufacturers have implemented better designs, for example BMW put a damper on their telelever bikes (or some of them) that did not act at all unless the bars were turning at a high rate.  You could feel it engage by swinging the bars quickly from lock to lock with the front wheel in the air.  I haven’t caught up on what others may have done with steering dampers as my older Ducatis have very conservative geometry and don’t need one.

Worn front tires definitely do promote head shake.  It has to do with the reduction in contact patch size when the tire is worn to a V-shaped profile.  This leads to a lot less damping of the oscillation.
Title: Re: Steering damper
Post by: DaveJT on January 31, 2021, 07:18:55 PM
FWIW I had a single violent tank slapper on both my early LeMans and 1000 SP...   in both cases with the steering damper removed.  Might be a lesson in there somewhere  :grin: but the old style telescopic dampers made the bike steer strangely when tightened, even hydraulic dampers, just like too tight steering head bearings, so I never liked them.  More recently manufacturers have implemented better designs, for example BMW put a damper on their telelever bikes (or some of them) that did not act at all unless the bars were turning at a high rate.  You could feel it engage by swinging the bars quickly from lock to lock with the front wheel in the air.  I haven’t caught up on what others may have done with steering dampers as my older Ducatis have very conservative geometry and don’t need one.

Worn front tires definitely do promote head shake.  It has to do with the reduction in contact patch size when the tire is worn to a V-shaped profile.  This leads to a lot less damping of the oscillation.

Excellent point. I try not to think too much about “contact patch”. It’s alarmingly small.

Title: Re: Steering damper
Post by: John Croucher on February 01, 2021, 11:41:14 AM
FWIW I had a single violent tank slapper on both my early LeMans and 1000 SP...   in both cases with the steering damper removed.  Might be a lesson in there somewhere  :grin: but the old style telescopic dampers made the bike steer strangely when tightened, even hydraulic dampers, just like too tight steering head bearings, so I never liked them.  More recently manufacturers have implemented better designs, for example BMW put a damper on their telelever bikes (or some of them) that did not act at all unless the bars were turning at a high rate.  You could feel it engage by swinging the bars quickly from lock to lock with the front wheel in the air.  I haven’t caught up on what others may have done with steering dampers as my older Ducatis have very conservative geometry and don’t need one.

Worn front tires definitely do promote head shake.  It has to do with the reduction in contact patch size when the tire is worn to a V-shaped profile.  This leads to a lot less damping of the oscillation.


The unit I am using can be adjusted to control the rate/speed of movement while rotating the front end.  This feels like it makes the handlebars hard to turn when in reality the adjusting of the fluid orifice is controlling the rate of fluid flow. Not making friction of rubber against a metal shaft.   The oem rubber bushing only provides resistance in turning the handlebars and does not provide any stopping from sudden rapid unintended forces during movement.