Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: willowstreetguzziguy on December 18, 2020, 09:38:13 AM
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Simple question... What’s the reason Japanese cars and motorcycles seem to be more reliable than their European counterparts?
Most agree that European built vehicles have more “character” than those from Japan or Korea. And the German cars give you a “better feel of the road.” Both Mercedes and BMW say they are “the best engineered cars in the world.” But as they get old, a lot of things break on them.
Unless you are wealthy, you wouldn’t want to be making BOTH car payments and repair bills at the same time on a used European vehicle. That’s the reason they offer extended warranties on used vehicles outside the warranty period. Most likely, a similarly priced new Toyota or Lexus will cost less to maintain than a BMW, Mercedes, Porsche, or Audi through the years. I think this holds true for European vs Japanese motorcycles. If the European vehicles have superior engineering, why do they not hold up over time.
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Simple question... What’s the reason Japanese cars and motorcycles seem to be more reliable than their European counterparts?
Most agree that European built vehicles have more “character” than those from Japan or Korea. And the German cars give you a “better feel of the road.” Both Mercedes and BMW say they are “the best engineered cars in the world.” But as they get old, a lot of things break on them.
Unless you are wealthy, you wouldn’t want to be making BOTH car payments and repair bills at the same time on a used European vehicle. That’s the reason they offer extended warranties on used vehicles outside the warranty period. Most likely, a similarly priced new Toyota or Lexus will cost less to maintain than a BMW, Mercedes, Porsche, or Audi through the years. I think this holds true for European vs Japanese motorcycles. If the European vehicles have superior engineering, why do they not hold up over time.
The Japanese have much more extensive Quality Control during the manufacturing process than most. When the American auto makers adopted Demming's methods, the quality of cars went up dramatically.
I suspect some of the European problem is related to local union power.
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The answer is two way different cultures.
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The answer is two way different cultures.
Very true.
In the early 80's I co-oped at a GM plant. Total shock to a kid raised in a rural area with the values of hard work, personal responsibility, making oneself useful, trying to improve any situation one and access to, and taking pride in the quality of one's work.
Even though I was in my mid 20's at the time, it was liked being transported to another planet.
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The answer is two way different cultures.
Bingo. The extent of Japanese honor and pride is amazing. From what I’ve read, their work-life ratio is significantly more stressful than Western nations. Add in the fact that they had to essentially restart their economy following WWII, and it only engrained the culture further. Germany had to as well, of course, but location and resources obviously lead to a different economy and way of national direction. It would be great if we had a person of Japanese decent on this forum comment with their perspective, but regardless, this is why I’ll trust Japanese for reliability over any other.
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Demming's methods
Bingo :thumb:
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The Japanese have much more extensive Quality Control during the manufacturing process than most. When the American auto makers adopted Demming's methods, the quality of cars went up dramatically.
I suspect some of the European problem is related to local union power.
While I agree that Japanese QA is better, I've seen a decline based on my last 2 Toyota trucks. The older, better one ('98 4 Runner) was Japanese built, and had no real issues.
The 2010, US built, truck has had a recall for rusted rear leaf springs. The ac compressor has already failed, and there was another service campaign for driveshaft which i didn't need (probably because i grease mine). The powertrain is solid though.
I figure it was because they are sourcing parts locally in the US. But, in any case, their QA should apply and is obviously sliding.
Then yesterday i hear about the Honda recalls for rusted driveshafts...reall y?
This will likely not cause me to deviate from owning Japanese, but it has me wondering for sure.
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I've only ever owned a few Japanese vehicles and those were a long time ago. All of the European vehicles I've owned have been very reliable.
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Great answers for 1975. Doesn't explain 2015 models though.
-AJ
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Not always, the 2009 Kawasaki KLX250 I bought last fall with 5K on it ate a valve this July. It was supposed to be my no fuss bike. My 2012 Subaru Forester is on it's 2nd replacement short block (which still use's oil a quart in 1500 miles) the mid differential went at 92K, the right drive shaft went at 80K and my 2009 Tacoma has a leaking axle seal (known problem) and the brakes suck.But then their is my niece who has a Toyota Land Cruiser with 300K on it and it's trouble free. My wife's 97 Saab 900 we had for years was the most reliable car I have ever owned. Having said this my mechanic friends tell me to stay away from VW's.
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My dad had to have the frame replaced on his Toyota Tacoma about 5 years ago. They took the body off, swapped everything onto a new frame, and put the body back on. Insane.
-AJ
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Having worked for several Japanese companies and several European companies, (Semiconductor industry), in my career, I would say both of these statements are true: :thumb: :cool: :wink: :smiley:
(https://i.ibb.co/FmwPPXX/Screen-Shot-2020-12-18-at-9-22-24-AM.png) (https://ibb.co/FmwPPXX)
(https://i.ibb.co/WVht5x6/Screen-Shot-2020-12-18-at-9-22-17-AM.png) (https://ibb.co/WVht5x6)
The bottom-line is that we all put up with the quirkiness, idiosyncrasies, and nuances of Guzzi's and other European motorcycles for many reasons, but the main one is, compared to the Japanese motorcycles, they have "character and soul"....that's my experience and observation anyway.... :wink: :thumb: :cool:
A moto-journalist once wrote that Japanese cars / motorcycles are so perfect...and so reliable...they tend to become..."Boring..." :laugh: :grin: :wink: :thumb: :cool: :wink:
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James May's Cars of the People, is an excellent six episode series dealing with a lot of what we are talking about here.
It's available on Prime, and can also be had on DVD. Not whacky fun like when he's with his buddies, but witty funny, and extremely informative.
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My dad had to have the frame replaced on his Toyota Tacoma about 5 years ago. They took the body off, swapped everything onto a new frame, and put the body back on. Insane.
-AJ
Yes - known issue. They also bought back a bunch of them at really good prices. Still crazy.
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Engineers can design all sorts of new-fangled fancy gizmos. But, they are useless if the factory can't and won't buy the quality of parts specked by them. And or the company owners purposely build it to fail.
an example of this would be design calling for an 8 ball bearing that should last 5000 hours but the buyers settle for a 7 ball designed for 2000 hours. Then the assembly line guys just hammer it into the case when the plans called for a heated case and a frozen bearing.
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I know a few people with Mercedes, BMW and Audi that needed too many expensive repairs just after the warranty expired. I owned a 6 year old Subaru that constantly needed repairs. Owned a few well used Mazda GLC 's , Fiesta and Rabbit years ago that were reliable...Bought a 2002 Honda CRV 5 speed 2 years ago that does the job...A good friend buys only Toyotas, he says they are bullet proof. Then a little later he tells me about repeated trips to the dealer for check engine light problems.....You know, some will have one repair in 6 years and claim the vehicle is shit, and others will tolerate more repairs because they like the way it performs..
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But you just don't hear complaints about Yugos do you.
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The Japanese have much more extensive Quality Control during the manufacturing process than most. When the American auto makers adopted Demming's methods, the quality of cars went up dramatically.
I suspect some of the European problem is related to local union power.
Tolerances. Also you can build to the 10/10ths for performance at a price point...or like a Toyota 4 cyl pickup you can build bulletproof
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From Jim:
But you just don't hear complaints about Yugos do you.
Or Vegas or Pintos either. :grin:
GliderJohn
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In Canada years ago we imported Lada's , now there was a certifiable piece of crap if ever there was one . You can't set the quality bar any lower than Russia .
And they still find people to fly in their aircraft ? Peter
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Tolerances. Also you can build to the 10/10ths for performance at a price point...or like a Toyota 4 cyl pickup you can build bulletproof
What is bullet proof in Texas may not be so in the north with road deicing chemicals...But in the last 12 years or so the Japanese trucks seem much better resisting rust And there's good and bad rust, rusted frames or unit bodys, suspension parts and door pillars are not good...
I believe the Japanese auto manufacturers need less quality control as the vehicle is being built because of the built in quality as mentioned the quote above...
Can anyone say for sure German cars have more hands on by workers than Japanese vehicles?
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I think it has to do with a company's mindset, what they want to be, what they want to be known for. Then they hire people they think will fit in with that.
Like KTM "Ready to Race" ... don't think that would translate to 50,000 miles with zero issues. So they go after light weight, zippy power, strong engines, etc. And then hire team members that know how to design/build/test zippy/light/strong. I'm sure they don't want them to blow up in 6 months, but I bet they've never had a discussion on making a water pump last 15 years without any issues/service.
It would be interesting to have transcripts of conversations ... Suzuki V-Strom 1000 team vs. KTM 1290 Adventure team ... I bet the 1290 discussions were on lighter weight, more power, rider modes and ways to control/manage the massive power ... and I bet the V-Strom conversations would mention maintenance intervals, ease of service, longevity, duration, long service life, etc.
And the Moto Guzzi team? "Hey, let's take the V85TT engine, stick it in the V7 frame, use the V7 ECU (cause we still have a bunch), make the shocks 20mm longer, and paint them in matte finish or dull blue!" "Yes! It will be like a V7 850 then!" "I bet we will sell like a thousand of them!" :laugh: :grin:
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Having worked for several Japanese companies and several European companies, (Semiconductor industry), in my career, I would say both of these statements are true: :thumb: :cool: :wink: :smiley:
(https://i.ibb.co/FmwPPXX/Screen-Shot-2020-12-18-at-9-22-24-AM.png) (https://ibb.co/FmwPPXX)
(https://i.ibb.co/WVht5x6/Screen-Shot-2020-12-18-at-9-22-17-AM.png) (https://ibb.co/WVht5x6)
The bottom-line is that we all put up with the quirkiness, idiosyncrasies, and nuances of Guzzi's and other European motorcycles for many reasons, but the main one is, compared to the Japanese motorcycles, they have "character and soul"....that's my experience and observation anyway.... :wink: :thumb: :cool:
A moto-journalist once wrote that Japanese cars / motorcycles are so perfect...and so reliable...they tend to become..."Boring..." :laugh: :grin: :wink: :thumb: :cool: :wink:
If the Japanese made an air cooled 750cc twin with standard sitting position and shaft drive I would probably still be on all Japanese motorcycles.
I buy what I want, and for the past few years that has been air cooled bikes. I just like the way they look so much better than a dang radiator front and center. The Japanese don't make anything to compete with the Himalayan either. But I do have the Japanese Van Van 200.
Air cooled japanese touring bikes are pretty much non existent, and/or not competitive, thus the Road Glide.
My "Japanese" Truck is 100 percent built in the United States with parts from wherever. My "American" Truck was built in Canada with parts sourced worldwide.
In 2004 I went and looked at small/midsize SUVs from every manufacturer and couldn't believe how spartan the Japanese vehicles were. I don't care how reliable something is if I am not going to enjoy 200,000 miles in it. I ended up with a Buick.
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All of the above, but this is important:
I think it has to do with a company's mindset, what they want to be, what they want to be known for.
BMW and Mercedes appear to engineer cars for 150kph on the autobahn with a business executive behind the wheel. The guy lives near a dealer or specialist repair shop and can afford to trade the car in after 100,000 km. Handling in snow and sand, and reliability in extreme climates, is seconday.
Many Japanese vehicles are engineered for reliability anywhere in the world, with the understanding that a lap around the Nurburgring is not part of the holiday plan. Not all Japanese cars, of course, but many. The small pickups seem immortal, but we can't buy them in North America anymore.
I recall when the Peugeot 504 had a reputation for bombproof reliability and simple repairs. People crossed the Sahara in them. If you skied in the Alps, the taxis were turbo-diesel Peugeots. After the company began making front-wheel-drive Citroen clones, reliability cratered. Today quality is improving thanks to a joint venture with Toyota and a new Czech factory.
Seems to me that quality and reliability are choices made by a company. If other factors -- price, marketability, performance -- take precedence over million-mile reliability, then that's what the company will build.
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If you google cars that can hit 200,000 or 300,000 miles.. it is invariably full size American made trucks or suv, and Honda cars, and Toyota cars and suvs. Though I seem to remember the Volvo p1800 might have been the first to a million miles.. and I think I saw a wheeler dealers where they had a mid to late 80s Mercedes Benz, and they were like this is the high watermark for engineering and reliability.
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funny how your point of view and dealer network can define your answer, over here (netherlands)nobody would even consider a american car , because of reliability issues
dealer network , and dealer knowledge makes all the difference
on the other hand any small city car is supposed to do 200.000 miles with basic maintenance, hell , even my 1985 citroen 2cv managed that.
( powered by a 600CC aircooled twin)
I work for a japanese customer, and to be honest, i am not impressed by their quality standards
they do brilliant procedures , but they struggle to react on even minor external changes.
if reality hitds them they completely loose the plot.
my experience with japanese cars has been less that favorable, (honda accord, toyota starlet )but your luck may vary
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Just my two cents . Another side to this issue is , if ya build it to good you’ll put yourself out of business ! As did Volvo with its 122 series, aside from replacement front fenders a pretty bulletproof car . Also PitneyBowes did the same thing with its older postage meters . They were paying twice the purchase price to get ya out of the old one to put you into an electronic one w/service contract ! I recently was talking to an appliance technician friend who just came back from an Electrolux school ,they make many appliances sold under different names . According to him their biggest competitor was they’re old machines , solution , make the compressors only last 5 Yrs. remember when a refrigerator lasted “forever” . I worked on the fringes of the food service business for a bit , ask any restaurant owner about it . My current neighbor is a service technician for “Pannera “ Reastaurant . Poor guy is out @ all hours . I’m. Done .
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So what vehicle built in 2020 would last 300,000 miles?
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My dad had to have the frame replaced on his Toyota Tacoma about 5 years ago. They took the body off, swapped everything onto a new frame, and put the body back on. Insane.
-AJ
That's nothing, I saw a shop do the same thing with a $60k+ full boat luxury Suburban (about 15 years ago). I didn't believe my eyes and asked about it and was told that was exactly what they were doing. :shocked:
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There several factors, regarding "quality".
It seems like this thread has concentrated on "workmanship" (i.e., labor) which largely a function of management. There is also "design" which is also a function of management. And finally there is "procurement" (of components and other aspects of design and production) which is also a function of management. = Cost, Schedule, Performance.
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That's nothing, I saw a shop do the same thing with a $60k+ full boat luxury Suburban (about 15 years ago). I didn't believe my eyes and asked about it and was told that was exactly what they were doing. :shocked:
I should have said, the frames were replaced because of factory recall.
-AJ
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If you google cars that can hit 200,000 or 300,000 miles.. it is invariably full size American made trucks or suv, and Honda cars, and Toyota cars and suvs. Though I seem to remember the Volvo p1800 might have been the first to a million miles.. and I think I saw a wheeler dealers where they had a mid to late 80s Mercedes Benz, and they were like this is the high watermark for engineering and reliability.
Both of my Audis ('85 5000S and '88 80 Quattro) were long lived - the 5000S went 254k miles before it was totaled when I hit a deer, the 80Q was still going strong at 309k miles when I sold it. Even my '93 VW Eurovan was still going strong @ 225k miles, however the body was rotting away. The old VW/Audi inline 5 cylinder was a super tough engine.
It's not uncommon to find Mercedes W123 (220D and 300D) with 400k miles + on them and still being driven.
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I have only owned one European car, 1980 Ford Fiesta. It was okay, but they used plastic cups on the ball joint for the rack and pinion, that had to be replaced about every 40k miles. After I replaced it the third time, I got rid of it, really stupid design.
All the Japanese vehicles have been really reliable, except for a 72 Toyota Crown Cressida with a straight 6.
the most reliable vehicle I have ever owned was a 91 ford ranger, never broke except for EGR sensor, 4 of those in 180k miles.
I bought used Cherokee about 4years ago at a state auction, needed a few repairs, but after fixing it, it has been super reliable for the last 4 years, right at 230k right now.
my last new vehicle was a 2004 Nissan Frontier, and mechanically it was sound, but the fit and finish was not near as good as my Ranger.
My company uses Tacoma's as company vehicles, and all 3 of the ones I had went almost 300k ea before i had to turn them in, with only one having an issue, failed convertor that Toyota covered well out of warranty.
I have known people who had BMW's, Mercedes, Jag's but they never kept them long after the warranty ran out.
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And then from the consumer standpoint, luck.
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So what vehicle built in 2020 would last 300,000 miles?
Well my 2014 Audi A5 is at 221,000 miles (my driving has dropped over the last 10 years) and should easily get to 300,000 if I've amind to-and I may.
I've taken other Audi products to near 300,000, so I won't say it's invariably American cars with high miles.
I figure I would have similar results with any American or Japanese car too.
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German's sell engineering, tech and performance and when a system is on the bleeding edge its going to have issues. I had a 2004 BMW 530 that I kept for five years until the onboard computers (it had three systems) started to act up, reprogramming alone could run 8 hours each time it needed something. BMW got it figured out though and I have had a three other 5 series since and they just keep getting better, never had an issue since other than a few recalls for hoses and sensors. I plan on keeping my current 2018 M550 for a long time, they depreciate a lot in the first four years so either you have to keep trading in or plan on long term ownership, being recently retired I can think of better things to spend money on that a new car every three or four years.
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Luck! All brands make “some” fantastically durable vehicles!
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Well my 2014 Audi A5 is at 221,000 miles (my driving has dropped over the last 10 years) and should easily get to 300,000 if I've amind to-and I may.
I've taken other Audi products to near 300,000, so I won't say it's invariably American cars with high miles.
I figure I would have similar results with any American or Japanese car too.
Just curious, what have brakes jobs and timing belts cost in that time?
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Sounds like the answer to the original question is it's a misperception and Japanese vs European quality is more or less equal.
-AJ
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I think a lot of it is intent and expectations. In my experience, having used Italian vehicles in America pretty much all my life (mostly Alfa Romeos, of which we had 10 in our family from 1965 to 2010), and Ducati (having put 300K miles total on a couple of Ducati Monsters), and some British (currently driving a 2002 Mini Cooper S with 222K miles on it) -- The American and Japanese companies build to the lowest common denominator. They expect that the owners will not keep up with the maintenance properly, will not care for it well, will by cheap parts, etc. So they design in extra tolerance and durability for that. The downside is that the extra tolerance and durability means less fine tuning, no delicate balance, less "soul" or feeling. European companies assume that the owners will have more diligence and competence about these things, because European culture fosters that better, and thus can and do design things more finely, more balanced and tuned, more road feel and soul. And you pay for that with more maintenance and more expensive parts.
The old saying is "you get what you pay for", although I think that's not entirely true -- often you don't get what you paid for. But what *is* true is the obverse -- you *don't* get what you *don't* pay for.
So what vehicle built in 2020 would last 300,000 miles?
Pretty much *anything*, if you break it in correctly, use it regularly, and maintain it properly. It will be easiest in a Toyota or Honda, but then that's what you're driving for 20 years. It will be more pleasant, albeit more maintenance and expense, to do it in a fine European car. But just about anything these days will do it.
PhilB
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There are some answers in this movie. :grin:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LImKOXpkdus&list=PLx-A21tqFoxiTs-zNtT_npN2f7LHtmPCk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Tjoz_0I4Gk
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I think a lot of it is intent and expectations. In my experience, having used Italian vehicles in America pretty much all my life (mostly Alfa Romeos, of which we had 10 in our family from 1965 to 2010), and Ducati (having put 300K miles total on a couple of Ducati Monsters), and some British (currently driving a 2002 Mini Cooper S with 222K miles on it) -- The American and Japanese companies build to the lowest common denominator. They expect that the owners will not keep up with the maintenance properly, will not care for it well, will by cheap parts, etc. So they design in extra tolerance and durability for that. The downside is that the extra tolerance and durability means less fine tuning, no delicate balance, less "soul" or feeling. European companies assume that the owners will have more diligence and competence about these things, because European culture fosters that better, and thus can and do design things more finely, more balanced and tuned, more road feel and soul. And you pay for that with more maintenance and more expensive parts.
The old saying is "you get what you pay for", although I think that's not entirely true -- often you don't get what you paid for. But what *is* true is the obverse -- you *don't* get what you *don't* pay for.
Pretty much *anything*, if you break it in correctly, use it regularly, and maintain it properly. It will be easiest in a Toyota or Honda, but then that's what you're driving for 20 years. It will be more pleasant, albeit more maintenance and expense, to do it in a fine European car. But just about anything these days will do it.
PhilB
Hogwash. Big tolerances give you HD style piston slap. My Honda car takes 0w-20 motor oil. Cars don’t run 20w-50 no more. Tight tolerances mean longer life, not less.
And as an aside. There is no way you’re getting 300,000 miles out of a new Land Rover or a new Jaguar. Those things look brokedown while moving down the road.
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Hogwash. Big tolerances give you HD style piston slap. My Honda car takes 0w-20 motor oil. Cars don’t run 20w-50 no more. Tight tolerances mean longer life, not less.
And as an aside. There is no way you’re getting 300,000 miles out of a new Land Rover or a new Jaguar. Those things look brokedown while moving down the road.
Hogwash. I didn't say *loose* tolerances, or sloppy tolerances -- I said the extra tolerances were built in. So, for example, not a piston that slaps around, but a heavy piston that can take a lot of wear before it has to be replaced.
And stereotypes, and what things "look" like, don't advance the conversation or make for an effective argument. There are high-mileage Land Rovers and Jaguars and Alfas and Minis and Ducatis and so on out there. They just take some extra care and maintenance to get there. My family members regularly got 150K to 200K out of '60's vintage Alfa Romeos. We did that six times. I got 265K out of a Ducati, and it was a hit-and-run driver that did it in, not mileage. I'd be over 300K on that bike by now otherwise.
PhilB
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So what vehicle built in 2020 would last 300,000 miles?
From my years working at a Mazda/VW dealer, and seeing all brands come through in the used car dept, I would say you want to the most basic, small to mid size car form most manufactures. As a whole the lower level cars just have less cutting edge systems that cause issues. Also it really helps to take care of them. Its so easy to forget becouse they run so well early on. Most old Mazdas I saw that were junked were not becouse of the fact that they were broke.. its that the cost to repair systems like converters were to costly.
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I think a lot of it is intent and expectations. In my experience, having used Italian vehicles in America pretty much all my life (mostly Alfa Romeos, of which we had 10 in our family from 1965 to 2010), and Ducati (having put 300K miles total on a couple of Ducati Monsters), and some British (currently driving a 2002 Mini Cooper S with 222K miles on it) -- The American and Japanese companies build to the lowest common denominator. They expect that the owners will not keep up with the maintenance properly, will not care for it well, will by cheap parts, etc. So they design in extra tolerance and durability for that. The downside is that the extra tolerance and durability means less fine tuning, no delicate balance, less "soul" or feeling. European companies assume that the owners will have more diligence and competence about these things, because European culture fosters that better, and thus can and do design things more finely, more balanced and tuned, more road feel and soul. And you pay for that with more maintenance and more expensive parts.
The old saying is "you get what you pay for", although I think that's not entirely true -- often you don't get what you paid for. But what *is* true is the obverse -- you *don't* get what you *don't* pay for.
Pretty much *anything*, if you break it in correctly, use it regularly, and maintain it properly. It will be easiest in a Toyota or Honda, but then that's what you're driving for 20 years. It will be more pleasant, albeit more maintenance and expense, to do it in a fine European car. But just about anything these days will do it.
PhilB
That is an interesting post and observation. I guess that is why there is a good aftermarket for many non-European cars for the enthusiasts who want to have sportier suspensions, more power, etc. etc.
I, not being a car guy, could care less about owning performance cars. For me they have always been vehicles to use when it is too dangerous to ride my bikes. I want reliability over fun to drive. I typically drive a car until it is worth $1000 before getting a different one. There have been a few exceptions to that. Even today, I have never spent more on a car or truck in my life than I have on motorcycles. My truck sits tucked away in the corner of the garage waiting to be brought into service to haul my motorcycles on a camping trip or a work trip.
If I ever give up riding and can still enjoy driving I would like to have a sports car, but I think I will give up riding when it is probably not that safe for me to be driving either.
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Just curious, what have brakes jobs and timing belts cost in that time?
For this car, no timing belt. It's a chain. However I had the tensioner checked at 160,000 and it was at the end of its travel so I replaced the chain and tensioner. Not big money, but I can't recall the number.
Coming up on the second brake job, I expect $600 or so.
Clutch slave blew out at 180,000 which soaked the entire assembly. Total replacement was $1800-the dual mass flywheel was fine.
What you haven't asked-no electronic issues ever. Suspension bushings are fine. Original exhaust and battery. I hit a large pothole and blew the seals on the rear shocks.
If it were at a dealer the whole time it would be expensive but you can always find a factory tech with the parts connections in his own space.
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I made a living for 25 Yrs. fixing brand new cars . Pick your brand or model , they all come with a warranty for a reason . Even Tesla has a service facility , & I’ve seen them on the side of the road with their “hoods”up ! Do the best ya can engineering them but , that old devil is still out there just a waiting. I can remember in the early 80’s setting up a new car for delivery , when i told the shop foreman it was all set . He said how’s it run ? It runs like a new car ,says I . He backhands me & says “FIX IT’
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When I started this post several days ago, I was thinking of the three BMW cars I had owned since 1984. I bought them all used with the last one being a 2001 BMW 330i. I bought it in 2002 with 14,000 miles and ran it until 2018 and I sold it with 195,000 miles. I’m sure it could have made it to 300,000 miles if I had wanted to spend the money to keep it running. It was a great driving car, but Every month, something was always needing repaired. (I had six window regulators installed installed in that car and zero in a 1983 BMW 533i over the same number of years of ownership. A major design flaw) in the later years, I found a young mechanic , a genius with BMW, Mercedes, and Porsches. He did most of my repairs at half the cost of the BMW dealership. With those cars, He knew when certain components we’re going to break. He knew the lifespan of most components. I had many conversations with him to delve into German automobiles. He was very disappointed with those automobiles built since 2000. He said the plastic parts were of inferior quality and they would deteriorate at certain intervals. And way too many computers on them that were costly to buy and install. He said if he was an average person and wanted to own and keep a German car made after 2000, he would either have a lot of money in the bank or would need to have a warranty on it. Too many expensive computers and modules that would go bad and cost too much money to replace.
He told me a story about a fairly new Audi that sat in the Philadelphia airport parking lot for several weeks. When the owner came back, it was totaled! Not because somebody ran into it But because rodents had gotten into it and had eaten into the major wiring harnesses that ran through the car. Labor and parts for all of that was more in the car was worth! Maybe the same would be true of Japanese cars.?
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Back in the 80's I was a plant Materials Mgr for a large (at the time) manufacturing corp(Dana)...we were really getting into the quality thing and had many meetings and classes on Japanese manufacturing. Our guys couldn't believe that a Japanese worker had the authority and was often rewarded for stopping a production line when they saw a quality problem..
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I think the engineering peak for German stuff was in the early nineties. After that the US car market aligned with Japanese competition introduced in the late ‘80s (Lexus, Acura, Infiniti) and people wanted all the features and doo-dads that the Japanese do well. From that point on, the European manufacturers have been playing somebody else’s game, one they can’t do quite so well. I think their survival depends on tariffs that protect them within the EU. A friend of mine works for Allianz Insurance in Germany, an interesting job in which he works cooperatively and hands on with prototype cars & manufacturers to refine their design and cut insurance costs. When he’s done working on the latest prototype VW and it’s time to go home, his Toyota is waiting in the parking lot. Mazda are actually more popular in Germany for those who will think out of the box, because they drive nicely as well as having Japanese style reliability.
I drove a series of Alfas every day from the mid-80s until the mid-2000s. I loved them but each one became less interesting than the one before, and less reliable. For me those times are in the past, cars now are appliance like from all makers and my interest is in something drives reasonably nicely while never breaking, because I’ve got too much other stuff going on to be bothered with them. I buy them new and they get tossed at between 150 and 200K miles.
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From my years working at a Mazda/VW dealer, and seeing all brands come through in the used car dept, I would say you want to the most basic, small to mid size car form most manufactures. As a whole the lower level cars just have less cutting edge systems that cause issues. Also it really helps to take care of them. Its so easy to forget becouse they run so well early on. Most old Mazdas I saw that were junked were not becouse of the fact that they were broke.. its that the cost to repair systems like converters were to costly.
It’s this. All the stupid doo dads they put on cars now cause they want to make it your living room. Motorized lift gates and what not. Sure it’s cool, but it’s just one more thing to break. That’s the stuff that will send current cars to the junkyard
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Nissan is the new Chevy. If not for Nissan, about half the people in the South would be afoot. :grin: And, so would I. https://www.nissanusa.com/experience-nissan/news-and-events/where-are-nissans-made.html
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Back in the 80's I was a plant Materials Mgr for a large (at the time) manufacturing corp(Dana)...we were really getting into the quality thing and had many meetings and classes on Japanese manufacturing. Our guys couldn't believe that a Japanese worker had the authority and was often rewarded for stopping a production line when they saw a quality problem..
Hey, I worked for Dana as well! Industrial Power division. And they sent me to Japan to teach them how to make a certain type of clutch/brake device.
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I've had a couple of BMW cars and a couple of Mercedes. I never had problems with any of them. But they were all 20th Century vehicles. In the last twenty years both companies have stopped being producers of quality vehicles and have gone for volume. The dealerships in the UK are no longer locally owned, but national, and the workshops employ more labour, with more turnover of trained mechanics. Time was when I'd see the same faces every time I went in. Not now. Both companies are producing too many different models too, adding to the dealership's problems.
I suspect that engineers have been sidelined and that marketing men are now running the show.
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From my years working at a Mazda/VW dealer, and seeing all brands come through in the used car dept, I would say you want to the most basic, small to mid size car form most manufactures. As a whole the lower level cars just have less cutting edge systems that cause issues. Also it really helps to take care of them. Its so easy to forget becouse they run so well early on. Most old Mazdas I saw that were junked were not becouse of the fact that they were broke.. its that the cost to repair systems like converters were to costly.
I'll comment on VW/Audi and their 2.0 turbo bread and butter engine. It's been a time bomb. A friend purchased a Jetta, the engine blew at 60k miles. The timing chain tensioner is run by oil pressure, so upon start, the timing chain jumps, the engine gets trashed. I did an internet search and found there were kinds of class action lawsuits. VW would change part numbers on the failed items, only to limit liability because the new parts were no better. This caused delays in the lawsuit as additional car models were added.
My brother-in-law purchased an Audi, they got rid of it after getting the bill for the brake job.
Not mentioning the scandal with polluting VW diesels.
I agree about getting reliable mid level car vs any luxury car. I'm big fan of Honda Accord which is pretty sporty car with a stick (not available anymore).
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For this car, no timing belt. It's a chain. However I had the tensioner checked at 160,000 and it was at the end of its travel so I replaced the chain and tensioner. Not big money, but I can't recall the number.
Coming up on the second brake job, I expect $600 or so.
Clutch slave blew out at 180,000 which soaked the entire assembly. Total replacement was $1800-the dual mass flywheel was fine.
What you haven't asked-no electronic issues ever. Suspension bushings are fine. Original exhaust and battery. I hit a large pothole and blew the seals on the rear shocks.
If it were at a dealer the whole time it would be expensive but you can always find a factory tech with the parts connections in his own space.
Parts connection is an issue, I think that's key. The cost of brake parts was prohibitive for my BIL. Perhaps if he had your experience, he's have kept it?
I want to get one of those batteries, what brand is it?
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I'll comment on VW/Audi and their 2.0 turbo bread and butter engine. It's been a time bomb. A friend purchased a Jetta, the engine blew at 60k miles. The timing chain tensioner is run by oil pressure, so upon start, the timing chain jumps, the engine gets trashed. I did an internet search and found there were kinds of class action lawsuits. VW would change part numbers on the failed items, only to limit liability because the new parts were no better. This caused delays in the lawsuit as additional car models were added.
My brother-in-law purchased an Audi, they got rid of it after getting the bill for the brake job.
Not mentioning the scandal with polluting VW diesels.
I agree about getting reliable mid level car vs any luxury car. I'm big fan of Honda Accord which is pretty sporty car with a stick (not available anymore).
Yep. Audis are nice. And you see a bunch in Europe obviously. But the lower end ones seem to be rebadged vw’s. And I get the desire to have one engine used across the platform, but at least have the decency to make it bulletproof. The questionable reliability of their turbo four 1.8? Or just the 2.0 is an unforced error
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Yep. Audis are nice. And you see a bunch in Europe obviously. But the lower end ones seem to be rebadged vw’s. And I get the desire to have one engine used across the platform, but at least have the decency to make it bulletproof. The questionable reliability of their turbo four 1.8? Or just the 2.0 is an unforced error
I don't know enough to mention the 1.8. I would assume some similarity but didn't do that much research.
Here's the story. My friend from around Denver came to visit on the way to Nashville. When they left my place, I could hear the rattling timing chain and mentioned it. They got to Memphis and the car wouldn't run when they started. Dropped it at a VW and the engine was toast. Extended warranty gave them a used engine replacement. A year later they traded it for a Honda CRV.
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We've been beating around the bush here but the truth is only one thing is important. How many dollars will it take in total out of your pocket to drive a vehicle as long as you want to? that includes the original cost vs the trade-in, all repairs, insurance license, etc.
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In 2005 I purchased a Dodge (Mercedes) Sprinter van for work. It has the 2.7 5Cyl. Turbo Diesel with about 85,000 miles.
There was not anything comparable on the market at the time.
After 15 years of service, it is still running well. I have had some minor repairs along the way but it is generally reliable and does what it is supposed to do. It also does a good job of hauling motorcycles when needed.
I agree with the comment about the electrical doo dads. This thing has crank windows.
I am totally happy with it.
I know that the engine design was changed in later years and some of the newer vans have been terrible.
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I would say you want to the most basic, small to mid size car form most manufactures.
This.
I put 300,000 miles on a base level Toyota Tercel 4wd, then a series of three basic 2.2 liter Subarus which all went over 250,000 miles. Two died from external causes (elk hit, flood), and one is still in service with my daughter. She needs it because her five-year-old Subaru with modern electronic gewgaws can't be trusted to find its way home. Gail's turbo Forester is now 13 years/150,000 miles but she doesn't really trust it. Meanwhile my 2007 Chevy AWD cargo van with nothing more complex than electric window lifts hit 370,000 this summer. The Chevy gets only 16mpg with its high-top and roof rack, but cost to operate (including purchase and all mods/repairs) has been 44 cents per mile. If I were to sell it today for market value that would drop to 31 cents.
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We've been beating around the bush here but the truth is only one thing is important. How many dollars will it take in total out of your pocket to drive a vehicle as long as you want to? that includes the original cost vs the trade-in, all repairs, insurance license, etc.
Dollars yes, but also time and hassle including that for maintenance, buying and selling. I find that I can deal over the internet and buy a decent new $25K Japanese car at roughly 15-20% discount (averaging the last three), drive it for 170K miles or 12 years with only basic non-dealer service and a couple of repairs, then sell it quickly to a kid for a few thousand bucks. The initial dealership experience is about an hour, and when selling they mostly still look new and sell fast on Craigslist. That works for me nowadays.
As time has gone on, I’ve moved to buying them with no more doo-dads than necessary, and with a well established high volume driveline. I agree that’s the way to do it if utility is your goal, and most of them nowadays have enough power to get the job done.
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We've been beating around the bush here but the truth is only one thing is important. How many dollars will it take in total out of your pocket to drive a vehicle as long as you want to? that includes the original cost vs the trade-in, all repairs, insurance license, etc.
1970 el Camino
Purchased in 1995 for $5K
Had it repainted: $800
Rebuilt transmission: $350.00
Fuel pump: $10 bucks
Rebuilt Carb: $50.00
Rebuilt Engine: $1,800 not including the go fast parts which were optional
Rebuilt brakes including new discs and rotors: $600 bucks
Most of the labor was free(by me) except for the engine rebuild but I did remove and install.
Mileage: Unknown, as that device has worked and not worked over the years.
Approximate total adding another $1,000 for who knows what: $9,560 so let's call it $10K.
Oh, the AC compressor needs a new clutch but I'm not going to touch that thing even though I could, just let the AC guy do that work so add another $500?bucks to the number. And the insurance is $200 bucks a year so that averages about $624 dollars a year ($52 per month) over the last 25 years + or -.
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In 2005 I purchased a Dodge (Mercedes) Sprinter van for work. It has the 2.7 5Cyl. Turbo Diesel with about 85,000 miles.
There was not anything comparable on the market at the time.
After 15 years of service, it is still running well. I have had some minor repairs along the way but it is generally reliable and does what it is supposed to do. It also does a good job of hauling motorcycles when needed.
I agree with the comment about the electrical doo dads. This thing has crank windows.
I am totally happy with it.
I know that the engine design was changed in later years and some of the newer vans have been terrible.
Ihave a 2003 with 360K on it...low mileage for these.
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Ihave a 2003 with 360K on it...low mileage for these.
Nice. Does the Ford transit get similar good reviews?
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"What’s the reason Japanese cars and motorcycles seem to be more reliable than their European counterparts?"
"Reliable" vs "Cost to purchase and proper maintenance" should be defined. My 215 thousand mile Ford f-150 cost me less than $10,000 to purchase and drive for 11 years. I did do maintenance and repairs. Made in America. This is after trade in allowance to purchase and trade in value when buying a new replacement vehicle. The truck retained it's value very well and provide a lot of value as a work vehicle.
My new 2020 F-150, scares me when it comes to all the features I could easily live with out. Electric emergency brake, self activating wipers, self dimming headlights, self turning on, off headlights, thermometer, self changing rear view mirror, electric tailgate lock, brake warning system, 4 transmission modes, collision avoidance system, lane change warning, back up camera and many other add on's that will break and cost to repair in the future. Fortunate for me, this will most likely be the last motor vehicle I buy.
I have owned Japanese vehicles. Datsun, Nissan. American vehicles, Dodge, Chevrolet and Ford. I prefer Ford for over all quality, fit, finish, performance and maintenance.
Buying a $60-$80,000 high end Foreign car and driving it 125,000 miles and recovering 25% of the buy in cost verses buying a $16,000 Hyundai or VW and driving it 150,000 miles and giving it away would deliver much more value to Me.
Bling comes with a price, that is why I ride a Moto Guzzi. I was told by a couple of people when I was on the search for My first one that they are junk and no one had parts or service. I am on MY 5th one now and it is 18 years new. And I would not sell it for less than twice what I paid for it.
It is My understanding that Hyundai's made in the U.S. are very high quality due to the fact that most of the assembly work is done by machines rather than humans. Requiring higher tolerances requirements in the manufacturing of components to be assembled on the line.
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We've been beating around the bush here but the truth is only one thing is important. How many dollars will it take in total out of your pocket to drive a vehicle as long as you want to? that includes the original cost vs the trade-in, all repairs, insurance license, etc.
That may be the only thing that is important to you, but it isn't the only thing that's important to anyone. How nice it is, how good to drive, how good looking, how useful and functional (for whatever functions the owner needs/wants) -- those also matter. I'm willing to spend extra money to have a car or motorcycle that I like and want and enjoy driving/riding. Yes it's cheaper to put 200K+ on a Honda, but it's much more enjoyable to put 200K+ on a Ducati or Mini or Alfa. I choose to spend that extra money for the improvememt of my own quality of life.
I remember knowing this way back in college. This was in the early '80's, and we all had cars that were about 10 years old at the time. I had an Alfa Berlina, my roommates had a Datsun 240Z and a Fiat X/I9. Our neighbors had a Rambler. One of us was often in the parking space of our apartment fiddling with something, and the neighbors used to make fun of us because they never had to fiddle with their Rambler; "they last forever", they said. But my response was always that "then you're stuck driving a Rambler forever".
PhilB
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That may be the only thing that is important to you, but it isn't the only thing that's important to anyone. How nice it is, how good to drive, how good looking, how useful and functional (for whatever functions the owner needs/wants) -- those also matter. I'm willing to spend extra money to have a car or motorcycle that I like and want and enjoy driving/riding. Yes it's cheaper to put 200K+ on a Honda, but it's much more enjoyable to put 200K+ on a Ducati or Mini or Alfa. I choose to spend that extra money for the improvememt of my own quality of life.
PhilB
which brings us to the big question , with hondas apparently lightyears better quality than guzzi's , there must be a reason why some people still insist on owning , and riding guzzi's.
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which brings us to the big question , with hondas apparently lightyears better quality than guzzi's , there must be a reason why some people still insist on owning , and riding guzzi's.
“Because we want to ride them forever!”
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I've put about 350,000 miles on Audi 1.8 engines. Pretty reliable , early models had a timing belt tensioner problem but that was fixed by 2002.
The 2.0 problems were for pre-2013 models. Pistons were redesigned after that. Early direct injection models of all brands had high-pressure fuel pump issues due (believe it or not) to a flat tappet drive. Updated to roller by 2012.
I have never had to change out a battery in any of my cars for 30 years. So about 1,300,000 miles.
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I have personally been told by three automotive techs that modern german cars are fine, but don't keep them past 5-6 years if you don't want to start dealing with constant extra expense do to way over engineering.
I have also read the same. I can't speak from experience. I have one brother in law that loves BMWs and Porshe, but he buys new, and gets rid of them within 5 years. I have another who bought a used 740i, and said never agian, as it cost a bundel to keep on the road.
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Nissan is the new Chevy. If not for Nissan, about half the people in the South would be afoot. :grin: And, so would I. https://www.nissanusa.com/experience-nissan/news-and-events/where-are-nissans-made.html
What do you mean by that statement?
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I have personally been told by three automotive techs that modern german cars are fine, but don't keep them past 5-6 years if you don't want to start dealing with constant extra expense do to way over engineering.
I have also read the same. I can't speak from experience. I have one brother in law that loves BMWs and Porshe, but he buys new, and gets rid of them within 5 years. I have another who bought a used 740i, and said never agian, as it cost a bundel to keep on the road.
All so very true!
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There has become an acceptance by some that if you want the latest tech it will have a short life. Just look at the average apple phone user. They may get 4 or 5 years than it is in the bin for most. It does not need to be this way. I still have a scientific calculator from over 30 years ago. It still works.
In my opinion, this is the biggest drain on our environment. If we are replacing our electronic devices and computer controlled cars every 5 years it is great for business but not for landfill.
As a side note I have worked in the military aviation industry for over 30 years. There is a push towards maintenance. It has been discovered that you can have the most high tech aircraft in the world, but it is useless sitting on the ground why the tech pulls half the thing apart to change an electronic component.
Car electronics could be like that with a bit of thought, yes a cutting edge sensor may go but it is a 5 minute change and you are on your way.
Steve
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Rob Siegel is a BMW nut, who has written a lot of entertaining books about fixing up BMWs from the 1970s to 1980s. One such book is “Ran When Parked.”
Anyway, he rants about cheap brittle plastic parts that break on the more “modern” BMWs. And expensive, short lived electronics.
He claims that the current German mindset is that a car should only last 7 years or so. In that limited lifespan, it should be really super nice, handle great, be safe, reliable, etc, but only in that limited time frame. The car is then to be replaced with a new model that will be even safer and greener and perform better. So the German design philosophy is not focused on creating “forever” cars. It doesn’t matter that an engine critical radiator part is made of plastic that will fail like clockwork after 7 years. Why are you driving a car that long anyway?
Supposedly, the car culture of resurrecting an old BMW is much more an American thing than a German thing.
Don’t know if this is true, but it’s an interesting hypothesis.
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What do you mean by that statement?
I'm saying Nissan is now the working man's car. I see them everywhere. I have 3 of them, me, a former steelworker from Pittsburgh :grin: When I drive cross country, they are very well represented.
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I think a lot of it is intent and expectations. In my experience, having used Italian vehicles in America pretty much all my life (mostly Alfa Romeos, of which we had 10 in our family from 1965 to 2010), and Ducati (having put 300K miles total on a couple of Ducati Monsters), and some British (currently driving a 2002 Mini Cooper S with 222K miles on it) -- The American and Japanese companies build to the lowest common denominator. They expect that the owners will not keep up with the maintenance properly, will not care for it well, will by cheap parts, etc. So they design in extra tolerance and durability for that. The downside is that the extra tolerance and durability means less fine tuning, no delicate balance, less "soul" or feeling. European companies assume that the owners will have more diligence and competence about these things, because European culture fosters that better, and thus can and do design things more finely, more balanced and tuned, more road feel and soul. And you pay for that with more maintenance and more expensive parts.
...
PhilB
Then, PhilB, I have to ask you... how do old-school Alfa's last, in terms of iron cylinders, set-in to an aluminum block? You know... the old four cylinders... and I believe the Busso SOHC V6 (not sure re the DOHC V6). I have seen some pictures of the aluminum counterbores in the bottom of the cylinder block corroded, galvanic corrosion, with the iron cylinders.
This element of those cars' designs is a pretty significant negative, it seems to me.
The 2 litre Alfa engine apparently had many problems with leaky head gaskets... the wet liner / open deck design - it seems - was less robust in the long term. 1750's... not as many problems, probably 1600's NP, too, but....?
All this is kinda moot, it being 2021 (almost). Very few will be driving an Alfa, in North America, as a DD...
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Rob Siegel is a BMW nut, who has written a lot of entertaining books about fixing up BMWs from the 1970s to 1980s. One such book is “Ran When Parked.”
Anyway, he rants about cheap brittle plastic parts that break on the more “modern” BMWs. And expensive, short lived electronics.
He claims that the current German mindset is that a car should only last 7 years or so. In that limited lifespan, it should be really super nice, handle great, be safe, reliable, etc, but only in that limited time frame. The car is then to be replaced with a new model that will be even safer and greener and perform better. So the German design philosophy is not focused on creating “forever” cars. It doesn’t matter that an engine critical radiator part is made of plastic that will fail like clockwork after 7 miles. Why are you driving a car that long anyway?
Supposedly, the car culture of resurrecting an old BMW is much more an American thing than a German thing.
Don’t know if this is true, but it’s an interesting hypothesis.
You know, I think you've hit it on the money. There are TONS of German cars in the middle east... Benz', especially. I believe the TÜV inspections are super-tough... and it is considered uneconomic to repair / replace to meet with the TÜV requirements. Hence... sold-off en mass.
Having said this... apparently the Japanese market is similar. Their inspection agency is very tough. I think the whole matter is one of Japanese Industry (car mfrs) and the Japanese Gov't colluding, to some extent, to ensure that there is demand, continuously, for new Japanese produced vehicles for the Japanese Domestic Market (JDM)... Here in Canada we are allowed to import 15 year old and older cars, bikes, with impunity... i.e. the emissions tests, safety stds, etc... are not problematic. So a substantial number of JDM right hand drive cars, in pretty decent condition, do make their way to Canada. Apparently Japanese society tends to be a "throw-away" society... I am told by a Japanese former colleague.
An aside: I'm not sure having RHD cars in a LHD market, Canada, is particularly safe... that is to say - making a LH turn at a busy intersection.... or overtaking on a highway...
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Yes, it used to be that Germans expected a car or almost anything else to last a lifetime if needed, and to be repairable for a lifetime. As time went on they evolved away from that mindset, and today the idea is that you buy a car, bring it back for dealer service regularly without knowing exactly what the ‘experts’ do to it, and take the dealer’s professional advice as to when you should buy a new one. The industry naturally structures this model to support their business, adding the cost of dealer service to the purchase price of the car and using whatever logic they need to convince the customer - who is anyway inclined to do what he’s advised. It’s entirely different than the US mindset in which car ownership means making all the decisions independently, people work on their own car or use independent service, any service requirement is considered an engineering fault, and the dealership is viewed as a stealership.
The above is based on personal experience and observation of immediate family.
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I'll comment on VW/Audi and their 2.0 turbo bread and butter engine. It's been a time bomb. A friend purchased a Jetta, the engine blew at 60k miles. The timing chain tensioner is run by oil pressure, so upon start, the timing chain jumps, the engine gets trashed. I did an internet search and found there were kinds of class action lawsuits. VW would change part numbers on the failed items, only to limit liability because the new parts were no better. This caused delays in the lawsuit as additional car models were added.
My brother-in-law purchased an Audi, they got rid of it after getting the bill for the brake job.
Not mentioning the scandal with polluting VW diesels.
I agree about getting reliable mid level car vs any luxury car. I'm big fan of Honda Accord which is pretty sporty car with a stick (not available anymore).
We used to tell people that had that 1.8-2.0T engines... ya, you NEED a Tbelt at 60k!!!.. MANY times the car came in on the hook within a few months of the owner turning it down.. A lot failed before that... but for the most part that was a good pot to pick.. It was a great running engine though, and made real good power.. It was brought up cost of brake service.. That was another place the VW's fell short. Costly parts, and wearing fast. If you got 40K out of a set of pads/rotors you were lucky. Thats why a large part of my friends, and family drove Mazda's...
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I'm saying Nissan is now the working man's car. I see them everywhere. I have 3 of them, me, a former steelworker from Pittsburgh :grin: When I drive cross country, they are very well represented.
Thanks for clarifying.
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I'm saying Nissan is now the working man's car. I see them everywhere. I have 3 of them, me, a former steelworker from Pittsburgh :grin: When I drive cross country, they are very well represented.
I don't see more Nissans vs Toyotas or Hondas.
https://youtu.be/4hBwkA4SSSo
https://youtu.be/8h_r_OuJU-w
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I have personally been told by three automotive techs that modern german cars are fine, but don't keep them past 5-6 years if you don't want to start dealing with constant extra expense do to way over engineering.
I have also read the same. I can't speak from experience. I have one brother in law that loves BMWs and Porshe, but he buys new, and gets rid of them within 5 years. I have another who bought a used 740i, and said never agian, as it cost a bundel to keep on the road.
Yep a guy at work bought a used BMW 7 series, beautiful car. But he came up against a repair that was just way too expensive, so he is going to attempt it himself. That said, it doesn’t grace our parking lot very often.
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In 1985 I bought a Chevy astro.I was the first year for them.I put 250,000 on it and I replaced nothing except brake pads and tune up parts.I mean nothing,no water pump,no alternator,no transmission.It had a analog odometer,sold saying it had 150 on it. I replaced it with a 96 astro. It served me well,but there were repairs. Started owning VW TDI's. There a solid vehicle,but the little things will drive you crazy. A good friend who wrenched on cars his whole life said all cars have issues.He said Honda reliability was nothing but good PR. He did start to say Hyundai were building a pretty good car.
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Then, PhilB, I have to ask you... how do old-school Alfa's last, in terms of iron cylinders, set-in to an aluminum block? You know... the old four cylinders... and I believe the Busso SOHC V6 (not sure re the DOHC V6). I have seen some pictures of the aluminum counterbores in the bottom of the cylinder block corroded, galvanic corrosion, with the iron cylinders.
This element of those cars' designs is a pretty significant negative, it seems to me.
The 2 litre Alfa engine apparently had many problems with leaky head gaskets... the wet liner / open deck design - it seems - was less robust in the long term. 1750's... not as many problems, probably 1600's NP, too, but....?
All this is kinda moot, it being 2021 (almost). Very few will be driving an Alfa, in North America, as a DD...
8 of our 10 Alfas were powered by that classic Alfa four (we also had one 2600 [straight 6], and one GTV6). Of those Alfa fours, one was a 1300, 4 were 1600s, one 1750, and two 2000s. They all lasted fine, if you used them and did the maintenance. The GTV6 had over 150K on it, and it died of rust, not mechanical problems. We had 180K on the 1300, which threw a rod in the end. We had 150K on one 2000, before my roommate wrecked it, the other 2000 had 200K+. Two of the 1600s served as family main transport for about 20 years, and had about 200K each. I think we did have a couple head gasket failures over that half a million miles+ of family experience, but they weren't any sort of recurring problem, and aren't a fatal failure.
I did test drive a new Alfa Giulia TI, and was fairly impressed. I might consider one.
PhilB
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I have a bit of a different take on reliability.
If you have a well made car, but something simple happens like say the windshield wiper motor fails. You take it to the dealer, and you get a run around and they treat you like crap, you will think of that as a unreliable POS car. On the other hand, if you have a car that has a transmission that fails, and a wheel bearing going out, and a few other things. But you take it to the dealer and that quickly replace those parts, bend over backwards to please you, lend you a car, make you a good coffee while you wait. Well, in your mind, that may be a perfect car.
I once had to drive my car to work instead of the bike, just because a coworker wanted me to take him to the dealership at lunch time to pick up his car. It was a Honda. Something about the water pump failed, damaged the cam belt, and bent valves. :shocked: So there we are in my American made car that just worked and worked, heading to a Honda dealer to pick up his failed turd. The entire trip he is telling me how he will never own an American made car because they aren't reliable. Yea, right. :rolleyes:
Then of course you have Moto Guzzi. Honda comes out with a string of motorcycles that have cam failures. Often just out of warranty. And the customer has to foot the entire repair bill. Moto Guzzi has cam failures, takes too long to fix the issue. Comes out with a good fix AND pays for the parts. People have forgotten about Honda doing it even though it cost a lot of money, but won't forget about Guzzi doing it even though Guzzi sprung for part of or all of the cost.
Not long after I started riding Moto Guzzis, one of my riding buddies questioned my sanity for getting something that was so unreliable. At the time, his Goldwing was sitting at a dealer waiting on someone with the skills to weld the Goldwing frame which was cracking. It was a safety recall, but my friend had to pay a LOT of money to get it repaired. If I recall, the welding was free, but he had to pay all of the labor to pull the motor and such.
Now related to Euro versus Japan. I'm not sure how to look at that. I do feel that some of the stuff coming from say BMW, is on the bleeding edge. As in, it is nice to have some of those gadgets, but if it fails far from home, maybe you didn't really need that many bells and whistles. Of course Japan puts bells and whistle in them too, but I believe they tend to use tech that has been on the market a little longer. Who really needed power brakes on a motorcycle for example?
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Yep a guy at work bought a used BMW 7 series, beautiful car. But he came up against a repair that was just way too expensive, so he is going to attempt it himself. That said, it doesn’t grace our parking lot very often.
You can see the future by looking back .. to keep a 20 year old Mercedes S500 or BMW 7-Series operating is sooo costly. (Yes you can only fix the essential stuff but sometimes the essential stuff are suspension components etc. and can cost A LOT!) Thes 20 year old dinosaurs probably had less computers and gadgets to go wrong than a 2020 Civic or Corolla. In 20 years ALL cars will most likely be too costly to maintain. That’s why the price of old Porsches, Mercedes and BMWs are going up. They can be fixed and maintained for far less money then the high tech newer stuff
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If you have a well made car, but something simple happens like say the windshield wiper motor fails. You take it to the dealer, and you get a run around and they treat you like crap, you will think of that as a unreliable POS car. On the other hand, if you have a car that has a transmission that fails, and a wheel bearing going out, and a few other things. But you take it to the dealer and that quickly replace those parts, bend over backwards to please you, lend you a car, make you a good coffee while you wait. Well, in your mind, that may be a perfect car.
In my mind, perfect is never ever having to return to the dealer for unscheduled repairs of any kind, and also having minimal periodic service requirements. A lot of cars, generally Japanese and US brands, are getting close to that point for an owner who buys them new and runs them for 10 years and say 150K miles.
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8 of our 10 Alfas were powered by that classic Alfa four (we also had one 2600 [straight 6], and one GTV6). Of those Alfa fours, one was a 1300, 4 were 1600s, one 1750, and two 2000s. They all lasted fine, if you used them and did the maintenance. The GTV6 had over 150K on it, and it died of rust, not mechanical problems. We had 180K on the 1300, which threw a rod in the end. We had 150K on one 2000, before my roommate wrecked it, the other 2000 had 200K+. Two of the 1600s served as family main transport for about 20 years, and had about 200K each. I think we did have a couple head gasket failures over that half a million miles+ of family experience, but they weren't any sort of recurring problem, and aren't a fatal failure.
I did test drive a new Alfa Giulia TI, and was fairly impressed. I might consider one.
PhilB
Sorry! NGC!
Thx Phil. It seems to me that using a superior coolant, changed often, is pretty important. I wonder if installing the cast iron cylinders into the block using grease that is compatible with the O-Rings at the base of the cylinder is the key...? A lot of Italian cars, I think, have separate cylinders from main-blocks. The Quattroporte IV (or is it V?) with the Ferrari-assembled four-plane crankshaft V8 is one (years 2005 to 2007, at least). In that case, though, the cylinders are aluminum, with Nikasil bore treatment. So maybe less problematic, less galvanic action (both parts are aluminum alloy, albeit likely different alloy material with different galvanic potential).
My uncle had a '92 164 3.0 (SOHC Busso engine) that suffered coolant leaks due to the aforementioned issue.
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Sorry! NGC!
Thx Phil. It seems to me that using a superior coolant, changed often, is pretty important. I wonder if installing the cast iron cylinders into the block using grease that is compatible with the O-Rings at the base of the cylinder is the key...? A lot of Italian cars, I think, have separate cylinders from main-blocks. The Quattroporte IV (or is it V?) with the Ferrari-assembled four-plane crankshaft V8 is one (years 2005 to 2007, at least). In that case, though, the cylinders are aluminum, with Nikasil bore treatment. So maybe less problematic, less galvanic action (both parts are aluminum alloy, albeit likely different alloy material with different galvanic potential).
My uncle had a '92 164 3.0 (SOHC Busso engine) that suffered coolant leaks due to the aforementioned issue.
Iron liners in an aluminum block used to be how *everything* with an aluminum block was. The *first* cars that didn't do that were in the '70's: the Porsche 928, and the Chevy Vega (which suffered failures due to that). Nikasil and other liners didn't become the norm until the 90's.
PhilB
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...
I did test drive a new Alfa Giulia TI, and was fairly impressed. I might consider one.
PhilB
I KNOW I'm a dinosaur when I say this... and I KNOW that the new Alfa has a ZF8 - excellent conventional A/T - but... an Alfa without a manual 'box?????
Having said this... I have a '17 Mazda6 with a 6MT. It likely will be my last MT car... Still gives me joy, though. And in daily driving (just relatively sane, easy-going driving) it actually is a bit slower than if it were an automatic.
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So this thread started with reliability between Japanese and European vehicles.
We all know what the statistical researchers say about that.
Of course there has always been some blending of technologies among the various manufacturers, like Brembo brakes emerging as the most common name in performance braking for the masses. Bosch electronics, etc.
Then there were partnerships where some Japanese cars were rebadged cars from other manufacturers, and some American cars were rebadged cars, etc.
The latest is the Toyota Supra / BMW Z4. Is it Japanese? Is it European? A little of both? The best of both, or the worst of both?
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I KNOW I'm a dinosaur when I say this... and I KNOW that the new Alfa has a ZF8 - excellent conventional A/T - but... an Alfa without a manual 'box?????
Having said this... I have a '17 Mazda6 with a 6MT. It likely will be my last MT car... Still gives me joy, though. And in daily driving (just relatively sane, easy-going driving) it actually is a bit slower than if it were an automatic.
I've got a '14 Accord with 6MT. I understand that Honda has finally dropped the manual in the Accord this year. Not only are Honda sticks fun to drive (a poor man's Beemer) but they were also cheap. The dealers drop the price to get them off their lots. Easily 15% off retail and they just throw in all that dealer installed ProPac (i.e., fru fru) that they tart up the car to build in more profit.
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I've got a '14 Accord with 6MT. I understand that Honda has finally dropped the manual in the Accord this year. Not only are Honda sticks fun to drive (a poor man's Beemer) but they were also cheap. The dealers drop the price to get them off their lots. Easily 15% off retail and they just throw in all that dealer installed ProPac (i.e., fru fru) that they tart up the car to build in more profit.
100% on the Dealer wanting to deal. The car I got had delivery miles on it... 7 km, when I test drove it. When I came back 2 mos. later, it had 12km... the 5 km being MY miles. Fantastic deal!
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Answer, the Latest Supra has no relation to Supra of the past, it is esentially a BWM. Dig deeper if you disagree.
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Answer, the Latest Supra has no relation to Supra of the past, it is esentially a BWM. Dig deeper if you disagree.
Totally BMW with Toyota badging? What happened to Toyota and sport cars? The 86 is 100 percent Subaru BRZ.
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Right. I’m thinking your first sentence was intended to end with a period rather than a question mark.
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https://www.caranddriver.com/toyota/supra
Pay no mind to the fact that the 2021 Toyota Supra shares much of its chassis and powertrains with the BMW Z4—it offers its own distinct personality and is an utter blast to drive.
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I KNOW I'm a dinosaur when I say this... and I KNOW that the new Alfa has a ZF8 - excellent conventional A/T - but... an Alfa without a manual 'box?????
Having said this... I have a '17 Mazda6 with a 6MT. It likely will be my last MT car... Still gives me joy, though. And in daily driving (just relatively sane, easy-going driving) it actually is a bit slower than if it were an automatic.
I fully agree. I'm driving a Mini-Cooper S now, with a 6-spd stick. I have rarely owned any automatics, and never liked them. I was very disappointed when Alfa decided not to offer this with a manual. But the paddleshift works pretty well, and I'm considering giving it a chance.
PhilB
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https://www.caranddriver.com/toyota/supra
Pay no mind to the fact that the 2021 Toyota Supra shares much of its chassis and powertrains with the BMW Z4—it offers its own distinct personality and is an utter blast to drive.
I saw one the other day. I don't like the looks, but man, the sound, wow. And that transmission was shifting like an F1 car.
Bet it's fast but you can't fix ugly. :evil: