European vs. Japanese vehicle reliability

[Testarossa]

I would say you want to the most basic, small to mid size car form most manufactures.

  This.

I put 300,000 miles on a base level Toyota Tercel 4wd, then a series of three basic 2.2 liter Subarus which all went over 250,000 miles. Two died from external causes (elk hit, flood), and one is still in service with my daughter.  She needs it because her five-year-old Subaru with modern electronic gewgaws can't be trusted to find its way home. Gail's turbo Forester is now 13 years/150,000 miles but she doesn't really trust it. Meanwhile my 2007 Chevy AWD cargo van with nothing more complex than electric window lifts hit 370,000 this summer. The Chevy gets only 16mpg with its high-top and roof rack, but cost to operate (including purchase and all mods/repairs) has been 44 cents per mile. If I were to sell it today for market value that would drop to 31 cents.

[Tusayan]

We've been beating around the bush here but the truth is only one thing is important. How many dollars will it take in total out of your pocket to drive a vehicle as long as you want to? that includes the original cost vs the trade-in, all repairs, insurance license, etc.

Dollars yes, but also time and hassle including that for maintenance, buying and selling.  I find that I can deal over the internet and buy a decent new $25K Japanese car at roughly 15-20% discount (averaging the last three), drive it for 170K miles or 12 years with only basic non-dealer service and a couple of repairs, then sell it quickly to a kid for a few thousand bucks.  The initial dealership experience is about an hour, and when selling they mostly still look new and sell fast on Craigslist.  That works for me nowadays.

As time has gone on, I’ve moved to buying them with no more doo-dads than necessary, and with a well established high volume driveline.  I agree that’s the way to do it if utility is your goal, and most of them nowadays have enough power to get the job done.

[blackcat]

We've been beating around the bush here but the truth is only one thing is important. How many dollars will it take in total out of your pocket to drive a vehicle as long as you want to? that includes the original cost vs the trade-in, all repairs, insurance license, etc.

1970 el Camino

Purchased in 1995 for $5K

Had it repainted: $800
Rebuilt transmission: $350.00
Fuel pump: $10 bucks
Rebuilt Carb: $50.00
Rebuilt Engine: $1,800 not including the go fast parts which were optional
Rebuilt brakes including new discs and rotors: $600 bucks

Most of the labor was free(by me) except for the engine rebuild but I did remove and install.

Mileage: Unknown, as that device has worked and not worked over the years.

Approximate total adding another $1,000 for who knows what: $9,560 so let's call it $10K.

Oh, the AC compressor needs a new clutch but I'm not going to touch that thing even though I could, just let the AC guy do that work so add another $500?bucks to the number. And the insurance is $200 bucks a year so that averages about $624 dollars a year ($52 per month) over the last 25 years + or -.

[EldoMike]

In 2005 I purchased a Dodge (Mercedes) Sprinter van for work. It has the 2.7 5Cyl. Turbo Diesel with about 85,000 miles.
There was not anything comparable on the market at the time.
After 15 years of service, it is still running well. I have had some minor repairs along the way but it is generally reliable and does what it is supposed to do. It also does a good job of hauling motorcycles when needed.
I agree with the comment about the electrical doo dads. This thing has crank windows.
I am totally happy with it.
I know that the engine design was changed in later years and some of the newer vans have been terrible.

Ihave a 2003 with 360K on it...low mileage for these.

[DaveJT]

Ihave a 2003 with 360K on it...low mileage for these.

Nice. Does the Ford transit get similar good reviews?

[John Croucher]

"What’s the reason Japanese cars and motorcycles seem to be more reliable than their European counterparts?"

"Reliable" vs "Cost to purchase and proper maintenance" should be defined.  My 215 thousand mile Ford f-150 cost me less than $10,000 to purchase and drive for 11 years.  I did do maintenance and repairs. Made in America.  This is after trade in allowance to purchase and trade in value when buying a new replacement vehicle.  The truck retained it's value very well and provide a lot of value as a work vehicle. 

My new 2020 F-150, scares me when it comes to all the features I could easily live with out.  Electric emergency brake, self activating wipers, self dimming headlights, self turning on, off headlights, thermometer, self changing rear view mirror, electric tailgate lock, brake warning system, 4 transmission modes, collision avoidance system, lane change warning, back up camera and many other add on's that will break and cost to repair in the future.  Fortunate for me, this will most likely be the last motor vehicle I buy.

I have owned Japanese vehicles.  Datsun, Nissan.  American vehicles, Dodge, Chevrolet and Ford.  I prefer Ford for over all quality, fit, finish, performance and maintenance.

Buying a $60-$80,000 high end Foreign car and driving it 125,000 miles and recovering 25% of the buy in cost verses buying a $16,000 Hyundai or VW and driving it 150,000 miles and giving it away would deliver much more value to Me. 

Bling comes with a price, that is why I ride a Moto Guzzi.  I was told by a couple of people when I was on the search for My first one that they are junk and no one had parts or service.  I am on MY 5th one now and it is 18 years new.  And I would not sell it for less than twice what I paid for it.

It is My understanding that Hyundai's made in the U.S. are very high quality due to the fact that most of the assembly work is done by machines rather than humans.  Requiring higher tolerances requirements in the manufacturing of components to be assembled on the line. 

[PhilB]

We've been beating around the bush here but the truth is only one thing is important. How many dollars will it take in total out of your pocket to drive a vehicle as long as you want to? that includes the original cost vs the trade-in, all repairs, insurance license, etc.

That may be the only thing that is important to you, but it isn't the only thing that's important to anyone.  How nice it is, how good to drive, how good looking, how useful and functional (for whatever functions the owner needs/wants) -- those also matter.  I'm willing to spend extra money to have a car or motorcycle that I like and want and enjoy driving/riding.  Yes it's cheaper to put 200K+ on a Honda, but it's much more enjoyable to put 200K+ on a Ducati or Mini or Alfa.  I choose to spend that extra money for the improvememt of my own quality of life.

I remember knowing this way back in college.  This was in the early '80's, and we all had cars that were about 10 years old at the time.  I had an Alfa Berlina, my roommates had a Datsun 240Z and a Fiat X/I9.  Our neighbors had a Rambler.  One of us was often in the parking space of our apartment fiddling with something, and the neighbors used to make fun of us because they never had to fiddle with their Rambler; "they last forever", they said.  But my response was always that "then you're stuck driving a Rambler forever".

PhilB

[huub]

That may be the only thing that is important to you, but it isn't the only thing that's important to anyone.  How nice it is, how good to drive, how good looking, how useful and functional (for whatever functions the owner needs/wants) -- those also matter.  I'm willing to spend extra money to have a car or motorcycle that I like and want and enjoy driving/riding.  Yes it's cheaper to put 200K+ on a Honda, but it's much more enjoyable to put 200K+ on a Ducati or Mini or Alfa.  I choose to spend that extra money for the improvememt of my own quality of life.

PhilB

which brings us to the big question , with hondas apparently lightyears better quality than guzzi's , there must be a reason why some people still insist on owning , and riding guzzi's.

[willowstreetguzziguy]

which brings us to the big question , with hondas apparently lightyears better quality than guzzi's , there must be a reason why some people still insist on owning , and riding guzzi's.

“Because we want to ride them forever!”

[Aaron D.]

I've put about 350,000 miles on Audi 1.8 engines. Pretty reliable , early models had a timing belt tensioner problem but that was fixed by 2002.

The 2.0 problems were for pre-2013 models. Pistons were redesigned after that. Early direct injection models of all brands had high-pressure fuel pump issues due (believe it or not) to a flat tappet drive. Updated to roller by 2012.

I have never had to change out a battery in any of my cars for 30 years.  So about 1,300,000 miles.

[bad Chad]

I have personally been told by three automotive techs that modern german cars are fine, but don't keep them past 5-6 years if you don't want to start dealing with constant extra expense do to way over engineering.

I have also read the same.   I can't speak from experience.  I have one brother in law that loves BMWs and Porshe, but he buys new, and gets rid of them within 5 years.  I have another who bought a used 740i, and said never agian, as it cost a bundel to keep on the road.

[twowheeladdict]

Nissan is the new Chevy. If not for Nissan, about half the people in the South would be afoot.    And, so would I.   https://www.nissanusa.com/experience-nissan/news-and-events/where-are-nissans-made.html   

What do you mean by that statement? 

[willowstreetguzziguy]

I have personally been told by three automotive techs that modern german cars are fine, but don't keep them past 5-6 years if you don't want to start dealing with constant extra expense do to way over engineering.

I have also read the same.   I can't speak from experience.  I have one brother in law that loves BMWs and Porshe, but he buys new, and gets rid of them within 5 years.  I have another who bought a used 740i, and said never agian, as it cost a bundel to keep on the road.

All so very true!

[reidy]

There has become an acceptance by some that if you want the latest tech it will have a short life. Just look at the average apple phone user. They may get 4 or 5 years than it is in the bin for most. It does not need to be this way. I still have a scientific calculator from over 30 years ago. It still works.

In my opinion, this is the biggest drain on our environment. If we are replacing our electronic devices and computer controlled cars every 5 years it is great for business but not for landfill.

As a side note I have worked in the military aviation industry for over 30 years. There is a push towards maintenance. It has been discovered that you can have the most high tech aircraft in the world, but it is useless sitting on the ground why the tech pulls half the thing apart to change an electronic component. 

Car electronics could be like that with a bit of thought, yes a cutting edge sensor may go but it is a 5 minute change and you are on your way.

Steve

[SmithSwede]

Rob Siegel is a BMW nut, who has written a lot of entertaining books about fixing up BMWs from the 1970s to 1980s.  One such book is “Ran When Parked.”

Anyway, he rants about cheap brittle plastic parts that break on the more “modern” BMWs.  And expensive, short lived electronics.

He claims that the current German mindset is that a car should only last 7 years or so.  In that limited lifespan, it should be really super nice, handle great, be safe, reliable, etc, but only in that limited time frame.   The car is then to be replaced with a new model that will be even safer and greener and perform better.  So the German design philosophy is not focused on creating “forever” cars.  It doesn’t matter that an engine critical radiator part is made of plastic that will fail like clockwork after 7 years.   Why are you driving a car that long anyway?

Supposedly, the car culture of resurrecting an old BMW is much more an American thing than a German thing. 

Don’t know if this is true, but it’s an interesting hypothesis. 

[Shorty]

What do you mean by that statement?

I'm saying Nissan is now the working man's car. I see them everywhere. I have 3 of them, me, a former steelworker from Pittsburgh  When I drive cross country, they are very well represented.

[Cdn850T5NT]

I think a lot of it is intent and expectations.  In my experience, having used Italian vehicles in America pretty much all my life (mostly Alfa Romeos, of which we had 10 in our family from 1965 to 2010), and Ducati (having put 300K miles total on a couple of Ducati Monsters), and some British (currently driving a 2002 Mini Cooper S with 222K miles on it) -- The American and Japanese companies build to the lowest common denominator.  They expect that the owners will not keep up with the maintenance properly, will not care for it well, will by cheap parts, etc.  So they design in extra tolerance and durability for that.  The downside is that the extra tolerance and durability means less fine tuning, no delicate balance, less "soul" or feeling.  European companies assume that the owners will have more diligence and competence about these things, because European culture fosters that better, and thus can and do design things more finely, more balanced and tuned, more road feel and soul.  And you pay for that with more maintenance and more expensive parts.

...

PhilB

Then, PhilB, I have to ask you... how do old-school Alfa's last, in terms of iron cylinders, set-in to an aluminum block?  You know... the old four cylinders... and I believe the Busso SOHC V6 (not sure re the DOHC V6).  I have seen some pictures of the aluminum counterbores in the bottom of the cylinder block corroded, galvanic corrosion, with the iron cylinders.

This element of those cars' designs is a pretty significant negative, it seems to me.

The 2 litre Alfa engine apparently had many problems with leaky head gaskets... the wet liner / open deck design - it seems - was less robust in the long term.  1750's... not as many problems, probably 1600's NP, too, but....?

All this is kinda moot, it being 2021 (almost).  Very few will be driving an Alfa, in North America, as a DD...

[Cdn850T5NT]

Rob Siegel is a BMW nut, who has written a lot of entertaining books about fixing up BMWs from the 1970s to 1980s.  One such book is “Ran When Parked.”

Anyway, he rants about cheap brittle plastic parts that break on the more “modern” BMWs.  And expensive, short lived electronics.

He claims that the current German mindset is that a car should only last 7 years or so.  In that limited lifespan, it should be really super nice, handle great, be safe, reliable, etc, but only in that limited time frame.   The car is then to be replaced with a new model that will be even safer and greener and perform better.  So the German design philosophy is not focused on creating “forever” cars.  It doesn’t matter that an engine critical radiator part is made of plastic that will fail like clockwork after 7 miles.   Why are you driving a car that long anyway?

Supposedly, the car culture of resurrecting an old BMW is much more an American thing than a German thing. 

Don’t know if this is true, but it’s an interesting hypothesis.

You know, I think you've hit it on the money.  There are TONS of German cars in the middle east...  Benz', especially.  I believe the TÜV inspections are super-tough... and it is considered uneconomic to repair / replace to meet with the TÜV requirements.  Hence... sold-off en mass.

Having said this... apparently the Japanese market is similar.  Their inspection agency is very tough.  I think the whole matter is one of Japanese Industry (car mfrs) and the Japanese Gov't colluding, to some extent, to ensure that there is demand, continuously, for new Japanese produced vehicles for the Japanese Domestic Market (JDM)... Here in Canada we are allowed to import 15 year old and older cars, bikes, with impunity... i.e. the emissions tests, safety stds, etc... are not problematic.  So a substantial number of JDM right hand drive cars, in pretty decent condition, do make their way to Canada.  Apparently Japanese society tends to be a "throw-away" society... I am told by a Japanese former colleague. 

An aside:  I'm not sure having RHD cars in a LHD market, Canada, is particularly safe... that is to say - making a LH turn at a busy intersection.... or overtaking on a highway...

[Tusayan]

Yes, it used to be that Germans expected a car or almost anything else to last a lifetime if needed, and to be repairable for a lifetime.  As time went on they evolved away from that mindset, and today the idea is that you buy a car, bring it back for dealer service regularly without knowing exactly what the ‘experts’ do to it, and take the dealer’s professional advice as to when you should buy a new one.  The industry naturally structures this model to support their business, adding the cost of dealer service to the purchase price of the car and using whatever logic they need to convince the customer - who is anyway inclined to do what he’s advised. It’s entirely different than the US mindset in which car ownership means making all the decisions independently, people work on their own car or use independent service, any service requirement is considered an engineering fault, and the dealership is viewed as a stealership.

The above is based on personal experience and observation of immediate family.

[s1120]

I'll comment on VW/Audi and their 2.0 turbo bread and butter engine.  It's been a time bomb.  A friend purchased a Jetta, the engine blew at 60k miles.  The timing chain tensioner is run by oil pressure, so upon start, the timing chain jumps, the engine gets trashed.  I did an internet search and found there were kinds of class action lawsuits.  VW would change part numbers on the failed items, only to limit liability because the new parts were no better.  This caused delays in the lawsuit as additional car models were added.

My brother-in-law purchased an Audi, they got rid of it after getting the bill for the brake job. 

Not mentioning the scandal with polluting VW diesels.

I agree about getting reliable mid level car vs any luxury car.  I'm big fan of Honda Accord which is pretty sporty car with a stick (not available anymore).

We used to tell people that had that 1.8-2.0T engines... ya, you NEED a Tbelt at 60k!!!..  MANY times the car came in on the hook within a few months of the owner turning it down..  A lot failed before that... but for the most part that was a good pot to pick..  It was a great running engine though, and made real good power..   It was brought up cost of brake service..  That was another place the VW's fell short. Costly parts, and wearing fast. If you got 40K out of a set of pads/rotors you were lucky. Thats why a large part of my friends, and family drove Mazda's... 

[twowheeladdict]

I'm saying Nissan is now the working man's car. I see them everywhere. I have 3 of them, me, a former steelworker from Pittsburgh  When I drive cross country, they are very well represented.

Thanks for clarifying. 

[LowRyter]

I'm saying Nissan is now the working man's car. I see them everywhere. I have 3 of them, me, a former steelworker from Pittsburgh  When I drive cross country, they are very well represented.

I don't see more Nissans vs Toyotas or Hondas.
 
https://youtu.be/4hBwkA4SSSo

https://youtu.be/8h_r_OuJU-w

[DaveJT]

I have personally been told by three automotive techs that modern german cars are fine, but don't keep them past 5-6 years if you don't want to start dealing with constant extra expense do to way over engineering.

I have also read the same.   I can't speak from experience.  I have one brother in law that loves BMWs and Porshe, but he buys new, and gets rid of them within 5 years.  I have another who bought a used 740i, and said never agian, as it cost a bundel to keep on the road.

Yep a guy at work bought a used BMW 7 series, beautiful car.  But he came up against a repair that was just way too expensive, so he is going to attempt it himself.  That said, it doesn’t grace our parking lot very often.

[hauto]

In 1985 I bought a Chevy astro.I was the first year for them.I put 250,000 on it and I replaced nothing except brake pads and tune up parts.I mean nothing,no water pump,no alternator,no transmission.It had a analog odometer,sold saying it had 150 on it. I replaced it with a 96 astro. It served me well,but there were repairs. Started owning VW TDI's. There a solid vehicle,but the little things will drive you crazy. A good friend who wrenched on cars his whole life said all cars have issues.He said Honda reliability was nothing but good PR. He did start to say Hyundai were building a pretty good car.

[PhilB]

Then, PhilB, I have to ask you... how do old-school Alfa's last, in terms of iron cylinders, set-in to an aluminum block?  You know... the old four cylinders... and I believe the Busso SOHC V6 (not sure re the DOHC V6).  I have seen some pictures of the aluminum counterbores in the bottom of the cylinder block corroded, galvanic corrosion, with the iron cylinders.

This element of those cars' designs is a pretty significant negative, it seems to me.

The 2 litre Alfa engine apparently had many problems with leaky head gaskets... the wet liner / open deck design - it seems - was less robust in the long term.  1750's... not as many problems, probably 1600's NP, too, but....?

All this is kinda moot, it being 2021 (almost).  Very few will be driving an Alfa, in North America, as a DD...

8 of our 10 Alfas were powered by that classic Alfa four (we also had one 2600 [straight 6], and one GTV6).  Of those Alfa fours, one was a 1300, 4 were 1600s, one 1750, and two 2000s.  They all lasted fine, if you used them and did the maintenance.  The GTV6 had over 150K on it, and it died of rust, not mechanical problems.  We had 180K on the 1300, which threw a rod in the end.  We had 150K on one 2000, before my roommate wrecked it, the other 2000 had 200K+.  Two of the 1600s served as family main transport for about 20 years, and had about 200K each.  I think we did have a couple head gasket failures over that half a million miles+ of family experience, but they weren't any sort of recurring problem, and aren't a fatal failure.

I did test drive a new Alfa Giulia TI, and was fairly impressed.  I might consider one.

PhilB

[Wayne Orwig]

I have a bit of a different take on reliability.

If you have a well made car, but something simple happens like say the windshield wiper motor fails. You take it to the dealer, and you get a run around and they treat you like crap, you will think of that as a unreliable POS car. On the other hand, if you have a car that has a transmission that fails, and a wheel bearing going out, and a few other things. But you take it to the dealer and that quickly replace those parts, bend over backwards to please you, lend you a car, make you a good coffee while you wait. Well, in your mind, that may be a perfect car.

I once had to drive my car to work instead of the bike, just because a coworker wanted me to take him to the dealership at lunch time to pick up his car. It was a Honda. Something about the water pump failed, damaged the cam belt, and bent valves.  So there we are in my American made car that just worked and worked, heading to a Honda dealer to pick up his failed turd. The entire trip he is telling me how he will never own an American made car because they aren't reliable. Yea, right. 

Then of course you have Moto Guzzi. Honda comes out with a string of motorcycles that have cam failures. Often just out of warranty. And the customer has to foot the entire repair bill. Moto Guzzi has cam failures, takes too long to fix the issue. Comes out with a good fix AND pays for the parts. People have forgotten about Honda doing it even though it cost a lot of money, but won't forget about Guzzi doing it even though Guzzi sprung for part of or all of the cost. 

Not long after I started riding Moto Guzzis, one of my riding buddies questioned my sanity for getting something that was so unreliable. At the time, his Goldwing was sitting at a dealer waiting on someone with the skills to weld the Goldwing frame which was cracking. It was a safety recall, but my friend had to pay a LOT of money to get it repaired. If I recall, the welding was free, but he had to pay all of the labor to pull the motor and such.

Now related to Euro versus Japan. I'm not sure how to look at that. I do feel that some of the stuff coming from say BMW, is on the bleeding edge. As in, it is nice to have some of those gadgets, but if it fails far from home, maybe you didn't really need that many bells and whistles. Of course Japan puts bells and whistle in them too, but I believe they tend to use tech that has been on the market a little longer. Who really needed power brakes on a motorcycle for example?

[willowstreetguzziguy]

Yep a guy at work bought a used BMW 7 series, beautiful car.  But he came up against a repair that was just way too expensive, so he is going to attempt it himself.  That said, it doesn’t grace our parking lot very often.

You can see the future by looking back .. to keep a 20 year old Mercedes S500 or BMW 7-Series operating is sooo costly. (Yes you can only fix the essential stuff but sometimes the essential stuff are suspension components etc. and can cost A LOT!) Thes 20 year old dinosaurs probably had less computers and gadgets to go wrong than a  2020 Civic or Corolla. In 20 years ALL cars will most likely be too costly to maintain. That’s why the price of old Porsches, Mercedes and BMWs are going up. They can be fixed and maintained for far less money then the high tech newer stuff

[Tusayan]

If you have a well made car, but something simple happens like say the windshield wiper motor fails. You take it to the dealer, and you get a run around and they treat you like crap, you will think of that as a unreliable POS car. On the other hand, if you have a car that has a transmission that fails, and a wheel bearing going out, and a few other things. But you take it to the dealer and that quickly replace those parts, bend over backwards to please you, lend you a car, make you a good coffee while you wait. Well, in your mind, that may be a perfect car.

In my mind, perfect is never ever having to return to the dealer for unscheduled repairs of any kind, and also having minimal periodic service requirements. A lot of cars, generally Japanese and US brands, are getting close to that point for an owner who buys them new and runs them for 10 years and say 150K miles.

[Cdn850T5NT]

8 of our 10 Alfas were powered by that classic Alfa four (we also had one 2600 [straight 6], and one GTV6).  Of those Alfa fours, one was a 1300, 4 were 1600s, one 1750, and two 2000s.  They all lasted fine, if you used them and did the maintenance.  The GTV6 had over 150K on it, and it died of rust, not mechanical problems.  We had 180K on the 1300, which threw a rod in the end.  We had 150K on one 2000, before my roommate wrecked it, the other 2000 had 200K+.  Two of the 1600s served as family main transport for about 20 years, and had about 200K each.  I think we did have a couple head gasket failures over that half a million miles+ of family experience, but they weren't any sort of recurring problem, and aren't a fatal failure.

I did test drive a new Alfa Giulia TI, and was fairly impressed.  I might consider one.

PhilB

Sorry! NGC!

Thx Phil.  It seems to me that using a superior coolant, changed often, is pretty important. I wonder if installing the cast iron cylinders into the block using grease that is compatible with the O-Rings at the base of the cylinder is the key...?  A lot of Italian cars, I think, have separate cylinders from main-blocks.  The Quattroporte IV (or is it V?) with the Ferrari-assembled four-plane crankshaft V8 is one (years 2005 to 2007, at least). In that case, though, the cylinders are aluminum, with Nikasil bore treatment.  So maybe less problematic, less galvanic action (both parts are aluminum alloy, albeit likely different alloy material with different galvanic potential).

My uncle had a '92 164 3.0 (SOHC Busso engine) that suffered coolant leaks due to the aforementioned issue.

[PhilB]

Sorry! NGC!

Thx Phil.  It seems to me that using a superior coolant, changed often, is pretty important. I wonder if installing the cast iron cylinders into the block using grease that is compatible with the O-Rings at the base of the cylinder is the key...?  A lot of Italian cars, I think, have separate cylinders from main-blocks.  The Quattroporte IV (or is it V?) with the Ferrari-assembled four-plane crankshaft V8 is one (years 2005 to 2007, at least). In that case, though, the cylinders are aluminum, with Nikasil bore treatment.  So maybe less problematic, less galvanic action (both parts are aluminum alloy, albeit likely different alloy material with different galvanic potential).

My uncle had a '92 164 3.0 (SOHC Busso engine) that suffered coolant leaks due to the aforementioned issue.

Iron liners in an aluminum block used to be how *everything* with an aluminum block was.  The *first* cars that didn't do that were in the '70's: the Porsche 928, and the Chevy Vega (which suffered failures due to that).  Nikasil and other liners didn't become the norm until the 90's.

PhilB