Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: faffi on May 10, 2026, 04:01:03 PM
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I know I have mentioned this many times, that I am not great fan of the handling I've experienced with the majority of the Guzzis I have ridden. The nicest one was the Cali EV, despite the horrific riding position and handlebar shape, plus my son's 2009 V7 Classic.
Recently, I read that the EV had an extended swingarm and lazier geometry than the earlier Tontis. That reminded me of my Honda VT500FT Ascot, which also had lazy geometry. Very lazy. My brother hated its handling, because he use a lot of power through the handlebars in order to change directions. The Honda did not take kindly to that, what with the chassis not being strong enough. I am gentler, and the only time I noticed insecurity with the way it handled was when I fitted much longer and firmer shock absorbers. This quickened the steering, and not to my liking. After I raised the front a similar amount to the rear through much stiffer springs and sufficient preload, handling was great. I recall Cycle magazine claimed that the Ascot steered with very little effort, but slowly. The GS550E (GSX550E in Europe) from the same year was said to be able to steer much quicker, but required more effort.
There have been other bikes as well that my brother loved and I hated, and vice versa. For instance, the Triumph Daytona 900 and Kawasaki 750 Turbo both felt like their steering was welded, they both need an insane amount of force to get the bikes to change direction. When my brother had those, I owned a Suzuki GSX600F Katana, which steered with little input, but not too quickly. When we swapped bikes, riding out onto the road, my brother almost turned 180 degrees to return back where we came from, while I almost ended up going straight because the bike did not react to my inputs.
I have concluded that I prefer very light steering combined with predictable, deliberate change of direction, as in not nervous. What about you? Do you like to wrestle your bikes, or do you prefer a bike that just goes where you want with little effort?
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I know I have mentioned this many times, that I am not great fan of the handling I've experienced with the majority of the Guzzis I have ridden. The nicest one was the Cali EV, despite the horrific riding position and handlebar shape, plus my son's 2009 V7 Classic....
I have concluded that I prefer very light steering combined with predictable, deliberate change of direction, as in not nervous. What about you? Do you like to wrestle your bikes, or do you prefer a bike that just goes where you want with little effort?
Faffi have you ridden a V85?
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Yeah V85TT handles great, better than my V7-850 Stone Ten. On the V7 I raised the fork tubes 1/2", better. For the most part newish bikes just need to have the suspension set up for the rider and proper air presure.
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I was out on my V100 yesterday and thinking how effortlessly it changes direction. Just think it and it goes where you want it. The V85 is just about as good.
Pete
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No, I have not ridden any modern Guzzi - my V9 Roamer is the latest version I have rolled on. Most modern bikes tend to handle very well, though.
Forgot one thing about handling - I want it to me neutral. Many bikes I have ridden have required constant pressure on the inside or, more rarely, outside handlebar to retain their trajectory, something I find annoying.
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I think the V85 is a wonderful handling motorcycle with neutral yet fairly light steering due to the widish bars. It also has nice suspension, something my V7II Stone did not. I hope you can take one for a test ride.
I've not ridden the new V7 850 series but everything I've read talks of nice handling, at least on smooth roads.
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When the 85TT arrived, it won many comparison tests, so I have no doubts that it is a great bike. After 50k km / 32k mi, only the transmission had suffered, plus the cam chain tensioner had broken early on. This video goes into more detail - dubbed in English.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAqObwXCJwA
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faffi. people race totally stock old tonti frames with almost 100% more power than stock, without issues, the secret is suspension and professional setup.
my sp1000 with YSS on the back and CBR600 cartridges inside the 35mm fork is a wonderful handling device. And im saying this as an ex-racer....
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For some years I rode a tricked out Suzuki GS 400 with good SW shocks and fork springs. Not the most comfortable interstate cruiser but was a blast in NW Arkansas between the short wheelbase and the handling.
For it's size I thought the Norge handled quite well. You had to put some effort into it while riding really twisty roads but it went and stayed where one intended. Kind of like the big girl that was light on her feet on the dance floor.
GliderJohn
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The V85TT is a slow steering bike with a very long wheelbase that is acceptable if not highly maneuverable by virtue of having a wide handlebar. It reminds me of a bevel drive Ducati with touring bars, except that the V85TT has longer travel suspension.
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Best handling bike I have ridden was my KZ400C, with longer and firmer KONI shocks off a KZ1000, modified damper internals and 2 inches of extra preload. It would change direction with just a thought, jet it would never waver off line. It held its trajectory just as well as my Vulcan 800A, with massive rake and trail, allowing me to watch the scenery without fear of the bike choosing its own route. A really fun bike hampered by a lack of power and a surplous of vibrations only.
(https://i.ibb.co/Z6wGT6RZ/Z400-m-nedens-sykkel.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Z6wGT6RZ)
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When the 85TT arrived, it won many comparison tests, so I have no doubts that it is a great bike. After 50k km / 32k mi, only the transmission had suffered, plus the cam chain tensioner had broken early on.....
Not bad for a first year Guzzi. What did they think of the handling?
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The chassis handles all road conditions with ease, from fast straightaways to tight bends, and the 80 hp is perfectly adequate for country roads. Only on high-speed motorway stretches might one wish for more speed, but that's a purely German issue, as the motorway speed limit in all other European countries is a maximum of 130 km/h.
Based on initial impressions after 300 kilometers of country roads, Moto Guzzi has hit the mark. The suspension is partially adjustable, the brakes are crisp but not overly aggressive, and modern electronics are present in the form of riding modes, but not excessively so.
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The V85TT is a slow steering bike with a very long wheelbase that is acceptable if not highly maneuverable by virtue of having a wide handlebar. It reminds me of a bevel drive Ducati with touring bars, except that the V85TT has longer travel suspension.
Well it's not quick steering like a super moto, more like neutral steering. Of the bikes I've had, some Harley's, California 1400, along with Africa Twins and Tenere 700 with their long WB and 21" front have had slowish steering but I don't find the V85 steering to be slow at all. Nor is it twitchy. I don't think anyone will deny the R1300GS is an excellent handling motorcycle with nice steering and the V85 is right with it with the same 19" front and same length wheelbase, which is actually short for an adventure bike.
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Put my vote down for the handling of the V9 Bobber.
I really find it to be predictable and forgiving of input mistakes. It is a touch harder to tip into turns, but I find it tracks well and that inspires confidence in me.
I find the V7 requires of me a greater precision in tight turns and better line choice. Probably just my limitations as a rider showing up is all. Regardless, I like the Bobber :cool:
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Safe to say all Guzzis handle differently. Just a matter or learning the bike and dealing with it.
I got my 850 LeMans 7 years after my Norton. Compared to the Norton steering seemed glacial. It was only after traveling at triple digit speeds and discovered it was dead stable that I came to appreciate it. Riding a MKIII LeMans it was even slower steering. The ‘98 EV was different again. Stable but the extra weight, wide bars (I installed lower Superbike bars) and floorboards plus the weird shifting and brake meant it was no sport bike.
The newest bikes are different again. You can’t assume another Guzzi will handle like yours.
Pete
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three different length swing arms is why PeteS.Shortest is the Le mans, then LM3 and the cruisers have an even longer one.All fine on long sweepers but hard work on mountain roads
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I forgot to add the late ‘90s 1100 Sports have to hold the record for the slowest turning Guzzis. Mack Truck Like.
They they turned it around with the early 2000s Sport 1100s. The first year or two they were as nimble as my 850 LeMans. Then they changed the geometry to slow them down. Apparently some found the early ones unstable at high speeds. I would have considered an early one if I had the space.
Pete
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I know why the '70s V7 Sports and the LeMans 850 handled so well in the twisties and wide open on the Auto Strada, Autobahn, and Interstates. It seems that succeeding bikes had those abilities reduced or designed out of them.
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three different length swing arms is why PeteS.Shortest is the Le mans, then LM3 and the cruisers have an even longer one.All fine on long sweepers but hard work on mountain roads
I am probably wrong, but I have been under the impression that the T3 and its contemporaries had the shortest, the Le Mans 850s a medium, and the LM IV a longer again, and that the EV had the longest of the Tontis :undecided:
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LM and LM 2 are the same as T 3.LM 3 was the first to get a bump .
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The III also reverted to the narrower fork stance of the original version, IIRC?
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IMO, my '21 V7 Special handles very well in the twisties. No it wouldn't rival my (No longer owned) Ducati sport bikes but it will outperform my BMW R1200RS (with active suspension) and my BMW R9T. ;)
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I’ve owned a half dozen Guzzi’s. 16” front wheel Lemans, GRiSO, v11 Cali, 1000S, and it’s the cream puff G5 that just seems to read my mind, even on aggressive rides. There was a day where I removed the luggage and absolutely throttled it in the Red River Gorge…ate it up.
That same weekend I test drove a V85TT, and while the tuning of that bike wasn’t to my liking the ergos certainly were and I could see that it’d be a wonderful handling bike. I won’t make any proclamations based on a 22 mile test ride however twisty and fast as it may have been.
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I remember test-riding two R9T's back in the fall of 2017. One had the numberplate "21" painted on the tank, the other was the Scrambler. Especially the latter was very disappointing, with terrible suspension. Not only did the suspension offer a harsh ride, it also bottomed out far sooner than my Virago-based scrambler. I would not have dared to take the Beemer through muds and rocks and over fast gravel roads, but my Virago-mongrel did just fine. The R9T engine had much more power than my 1100, but the old Yamaha donk was more tractable at lower rpm and more suited for offroad work and road speeds up to 60mph in my experience.
(https://i.ibb.co/6CJqTS6/Virago-Safsen.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6CJqTS6)
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I know I have mentioned this many times, that I am not great fan of the handling I've experienced with the majority of the Guzzis I have ridden. The nicest one was the Cali EV, despite the horrific riding position and handlebar shape, plus my son's 2009 V7 Classic.
Recently, I read that the EV had an extended swingarm and lazier geometry than the earlier Tontis. That reminded me of my Honda VT500FT Ascot, which also had lazy geometry. Very lazy. My brother hated its handling, because he use a lot of power through the handlebars in order to change directions. The Honda did not take kindly to that, what with the chassis not being strong enough. I am gentler, and the only time I noticed insecurity with the way it handled was when I fitted much longer and firmer shock absorbers. This quickened the steering, and not to my liking. After I raised the front a similar amount to the rear through much stiffer springs and sufficient preload, handling was great. I recall Cycle magazine claimed that the Ascot steered with very little effort, but slowly. The GS550E (GSX550E in Europe) from the same year was said to be able to steer much quicker, but required more effort.
There have been other bikes as well that my brother loved and I hated, and vice versa. For instance, the Triumph Daytona 900 and Kawasaki 750 Turbo both felt like their steering was welded, they both need an insane amount of force to get the bikes to change direction. When my brother had those, I owned a Suzuki GSX600F Katana, which steered with little input, but not too quickly. When we swapped bikes, riding out onto the road, my brother almost turned 180 degrees to return back where we came from, while I almost ended up going straight because the bike did not react to my inputs.
I have concluded that I prefer very light steering combined with predictable, deliberate change of direction, as in not nervous. What about you? Do you like to wrestle your bikes, or do you prefer a bike that just goes where you want with little effort?
A few years back I planted my Calvin vintage behind a group of sports bike riders on the TAIL OF THE DRAGON.
before reaching the end I had improved my position to the third bike in a group of 8-10 bikes.
Could it possibly be the riders or the bikes?
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A few years back I planted my Calvin vintage behind a group of sports bike riders on the TAIL OF THE DRAGON.
before reaching the end I had improved my position to the third bike in a group of 8-10 bikes.
Could it possibly be the riders or the bikes?
I'm not and never will be anywhere near the skill of an actual racer.
That's also true of 99% of the riding community.
I've absolutely destroyed sport bike riders while I was on a Harley.
I've been absolutely owned on a sportbike by a retired racer, who was 2-up with his large self and large wife on a clapped out airhead.
It is almost always the rider.
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I'm not and never will be anywhere near the skill of an actual racer.
That's also true of 99% of the riding community.
I've absolutely destroyed sport bike riders while I was on a Harley.
I've been absolutely owned on a sportbike by a retired racer, who was 2-up with his large self and large wife on a clapped out airhead.
It is almost always the rider.
I hope both of us is wiser as we age, kev🤔
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I hope both of us is wiser as we age, kev🤔
Not sure about wiser but definitely slower.
As a friend told me, “There are old men and there are bold men, but there are no old bold men”.
Pete
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A few years back I planted my Calvin vintage behind a group of sports bike riders on the TAIL OF THE DRAGON.
before reaching the end I had improved my position to the third bike in a group of 8-10 bikes.
Could it possibly be the riders or the bikes?
Mostly the rider, as I think you know. MOTORRAD magazine tested a HP-BMW S1000RR with 215 hp against a Royal Enfield 535GT with 29 hp in the Alps. The difference in time was less than 15%. Personally, I can also say that while some bikes can limit myself around the odd bend due to lack of cornering clearance or lack of power, but most of the time I am the limiter. So my time from A to B over a winding road will determine more on me than the bike I ride more often than not.
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I've only ridden the 1 Guzzi, my LM2 and it handles fine especially given it's age.
The only problem I ever had with it was when overtaking on a 'hatched' area (diagonally painted lines in a painted box), where it got into the mother of all tank slappers - I honestly thought I was going to be thrown off it but I managed to keep it going straight until it smoothed out after which the front brakes didn't work until I'd pumped the lever a few times.
I don't know if that's 'normal' for the bike or maybe because something's not right but I can't find any faults and it actually has an uprated steering damper taken from a Ducati 916 as the original whilst looking the part didn't 'damp' anything.
Otherwise the best handling bike I've ridden is my Ducati 916 which just does everything right and is far more capable than I am.
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You need to learn how to set up suspensions and tire pressures. I don't know but model for model category to category, I find Guzzi's to be some of the best most stable competent and pleasurable motorcycles to ride.
It is all subjective. You need to ride a properly sorted Griso or Norge, or new V85. I have a buddy with an 850 V7. Out of the box it was adequate. With Matris kit in the forks, and rear shocks and good tires with proper pressure settings, it was brilliant.
I cross ride and test ride all the time. I only own Guzzis because of the riding experience and capabilities. When I find something better or more capable and stable, I'll buy it.... But for now it doesn't exist, at least for the style and roads I ride. Speaking of which, I'm gonna go put the final 200 miles on my V85 in the Virginia BLue Ridge, and then do the Breakin service. Gonna love every mile.
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I've only ridden the 1 Guzzi, my LM2 and it handles fine especially given it's age.
The only problem I ever had with it was when overtaking on a 'hatched' area (diagonally painted lines in a painted box), where it got into the mother of all tank slappers - I honestly thought I was going to be thrown off it but I managed to keep it going straight until it smoothed out after which the front brakes didn't work until I'd pumped the lever a few times.
I don't know if that's 'normal' for the bike or maybe because something's not right but I can't find any faults and it actually has an uprated steering damper taken from a Ducati 916 as the original whilst looking the part didn't 'damp' anything.
Otherwise the best handling bike I've ridden is my Ducati 916 which just does everything right and is far more capable than I am.
I had one tank slapper on my LM1 when crossing Railroad tracks in the rain in the middle of an S curve.
The stock damper is a friction damper and totally useless. I removed mine. Friction dampers have maximum resistance when motionless. Hydraulic dampers increase resistance as motion increases.
Pete
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In Sicily I found the V7 850 to have a balanced weight distribution that let me drift both tires around every corner and plenty of torque to hang out the rear wheel to unload the front when needed. The standard riding position encouraged me to use my weight to help. The steering was stable. It was all I could want.
My T3 has the same frame and brakes as the LeMans (I), has supersport handlebars, and also does very well. I recommend the OP try one of the original short-stem models to experience the once-renowned handling of the original Tonti frame. (V7 Sport, 750S, 850T, 850-T3, 750-S3, Convert, Lemans, 1000-G5.)
I decided the new V7 850 beat my old 850 in every performance characteristic. [EDIT: except top speed.]
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How does the Cali II differ from the T3 & Co in the chassis department? I think it must be the closest thing I have come to riding one of those on your list, moto.
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I recommend the OP try one of the original short-stem models to experience the once-renowned handling of the original Tonti frame. (V7 Sport, 750S, 850T, 850-T3, 750-S3, Convert, Lemans, 1000-G5.)
yeah, baby.
git on yer bike and ride!
(https://cdn.imgchest.com/files/y8xcn593om4.png) (https://imgchest.com/p/ej7m89qg9yd)
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How does the Cali II differ from the T3 & Co in the chassis department? I think it must be the closest thing I have come to riding one of those on your list, moto.
It had the longer steering stem (head stock) and longer swing arm. It was praised as a good touring chassis. All the later Tonti frames had one or both of these chacteristics, I believe.
P.S. I believe the Lemans II retained the short stem. One could look these things up, say in Greg Field's book.
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…a balanced weight distribution that let me drift both tires around every corner and plenty of torque to hang out the rear wheel to unload the front when needed. The standard riding position encouraged me to use my weight to help.
I’m not allowed to say that’s BS, so I’ll leave it up to Isaac Newton and the Gods of fact versus fiction.
How in heaven’s name do you identify whether or not you “drifted” your bike, you possibly allowed it to run wide or it just stood itself up a bit due to the increasing velocity, but….
Jeeeeez…
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I’m not allowed to say that’s BS, so I’ll leave it up to Isaac Newton and the Gods of fact versus fiction.
How in heaven’s name do you identify whether or not you “drifted” your bike, you possibly allowed it to run wide or it just stood itself up a bit due to the increasing velocity, but….
Jeeeeez…
Your countryman Garry McCoy was the master at this. I am guessing moto was doing this on the track, at least I hope so.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-YPEBlQ5tw&list=RDv-YPEBlQ5tw&start_radio=1
Pete
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I’m not allowed to say that’s BS, so I’ll leave it up to Isaac Newton and the Gods of fact versus fiction.
How in heaven’s name do you identify whether or not you “drifted” your bike, you possibly allowed it to run wide or it just stood itself up a bit due to the increasing velocity, but….
Jeeeeez…
Because I observed that the direction of the bike was going was different from the direction the wheel was pointed: it was sliding outward, under control. Also, the rear was keeping pace with a sideways sliding. I raced another guy on an Audace, keeping right behind him as he tried to escape me up a twisty set of curves. From only two or three feet behind him I could plainly see his rear tire sliding outward a good bit while maintaining my speed and radius. In addition to these visual cues, I could feel both tires sliding. Maybe you can't do this. I learned about the importance of powering the rear wheel, letting it drift out under acceleration to keep the weight off the front, by listening to Nick Inaetch (sp?) on an old radio program in California. Then I practiced. That's how you do it if you want to be fast.
Isaac Newton didn't investigate the properties of rubber sliding across asphalt, but plenty of others have. Read up, or better yet find some good roads and practice up.
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I was able to purposely slide the rear tire on the LeMans at the track, never the front. More horsepower makes it a bit easier.
Pete
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You will definitely know if one or both tires are sliding, be that on dry or wet asphalt, or gravel, or ice - the tires communicate what is going on. Some have a broad band between initial sliding and crashing, others have a very narrow band. The more grip, the less warning you have between initial slide and crash. This is why so few are able to race at the top level, because you have to be utterly sensitive and very good with your reactions to keep highly grippy tires sliding and not crashing.
I think it was Spies who said that to ride a race bike is like riding on marbles; if the tires are planted, you are going too slow. But the line between no slide to correct slide to crash is very narrow on race slicks.
Anyway, the sliding on marble feeling is very easy to reckognise also on road bikes when you are nearing the limit of adhesion.
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^^ Best reserved for relatively smooth and predictable racetracks, rather than public roads. One day you may be sorry/get your comeuppance.
I was daft/crazy in my younger years but not to the extent of knee-down foolishness etc.
[Another one to watch from Down Under: Casey Stoner.]
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I was able to purposely slide the rear tire on the LeMans at the track, never the front. More horsepower makes it a bit easier.
Pete
As memorably explained by Nick I., it works like this:
Suppose you are rounding a constant radius curve at a speed where both your tires are on the verge of slipping or maybe are slipping, and you fear they will let go. What to do? You shouldn't back off on the throttle because this will transfer weight to the front and your front tire will slide off so you crash. You can ease off on the radius using the handlebar, but this may send you off the curve and the point is to go faster, not slower, anyway. The best bet is to give the rear tire more power to shift the weight away from the front tire, keeping it from losing traction. Also, the rear tire will kick outwards from the direction of the curve to a degree letting you apply power toward the inside to keep the rear and the bike heading around the curve. I wish this sounded more clear.
As for sliding the front, you apply power at the rear to stop this from continuing, if you like. Since the traction provided by tires is highest as the tires begin to slide, the ideal way around a constant radius corner would seem to be to have both tires slightly sliding. This is hard to do, but you always have the throttle at your disposal to keep from sliding out.
If you have enough power and enough rubber an even faster way around the corner is to power slide the rear, as is done in flat track racing. You see behavior approaching this sometimes in MotoGP racing, where the tires are always sliding.
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Your front tyre is not so much sliding, but steering off the centreline tangentially to the curve.
No, Isaac did not ride motorbikes, but he knew a LOT about forces, vectors and velocity.
If you tell yourself what you want to hear, you can actually “see” it after a while, a classic case of coming up with a reason after the fact, for something that you perceive to be the case.
Also, reducing the weight on the front wheel will not reduce it’s tendancy to slide, friction is a function of force, the harder the tyre is forced onto the road, the less likely it is to skid.
It doesn’t matter if you name drop Marc Marquez, some things are just inescapably true.
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Since the traction provided by tires is highest as the tires begin to slide
So.
It takes MORE force to keep a tyre sliding than it did to begin it sliding ?
This would have to be the case if the tyre had more grip while sliding than before it began.
If that was true, then at the instant you provided enough force to break traction (limiting friction), the tyre would stop sliding because there was not enough force to keep it doing so.
I concede that a good enough rider could produce some amount of drift on both wheels under enough braking, but on acceleration with a ditch pump for an engine ?
Nup.
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I had one tank slapper on my LM1 when crossing Railroad tracks in the rain in the middle of an S curve.
The stock damper is a friction damper and totally useless. I removed mine. Friction dampers have maximum resistance when motionless. Hydraulic dampers increase resistance as motion increases.
Pete
In regards to the shock damper on the CalVin I had. I figured that if MG installed it from the factory
That it must serve a purpose.
I spent the best part of a day testing it out when I first got the Calvin.
I picked a rather curvy country road that had some bumps and ruff surfaces, a mixture of issues that I thought would influence the steering system.
I started at the first setting and went all the way to the last, in separate runs for each setting.
I had to be perfectly honest with myself at the end of the testing and came to this conclusion.
That thing is as about as useful as tits on a bull🤔
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Your front tyre is not so much sliding, but steering off the centreline tangentially to the curve.
No the front tire is decidedly drifting, sliding sideways. As others in this discussion have said, you can certainly feel tires sliding when you push them enough. I don't think you've ever done that in your whole life.
No, Isaac did not ride motorbikes, but he knew a LOT about forces, vectors and velocity.
There's a lot he didn't know, and that you don't know. I'll show an example in my next reply.
If you tell yourself what you want to hear, you can actually “see” it after a while, a classic case of coming up with a reason after the fact, for something that you perceive to be the case.
This is insulting, and should be beneath you. It is also clumsily expressed You have no knowledge of my mental processes.
Also, reducing the weight on the front wheel will not reduce it’s tendancy to slide, friction is a function of force, the harder the tyre is forced onto the road, the less likely it is to skid.
You misspelled "tendency"; I know how you hate that.
Your allusion to the principle that friction is a (linear) function of downward force is true, but this is not enough to understand the dynamical system of the motorcycle here.
It doesn’t matter if you name drop Marc Marquez, some things are just inescapably true.
I didn't mention Marc Marquez. It may be that some things are inescapably true, but that doesn't mean the things you say are inescapably true.
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So.
It takes MORE force to keep a tyre sliding than it did to begin it sliding ?
This would have to be the case if the tyre had more grip while sliding than before it began.
If that was true, then at the instant you provided enough force to break traction (limiting friction), the tyre would stop sliding because there was not enough force to keep it doing so.
Now this a good point, and I was confusing the initial increase in the longitudinal coefficient of friction as wheel slippage increases, with what we really want, which is the immediate tailing off of the transverse coefficient under the same condition. Here is a diagram showing the two relationships, very likely provided by Brembo in their joint presentation of the T3 braking system, with Pirelli and Moto Guzzi in the Motociclismo review of that bike. (You can find my translation of the review into English at thisoldtractor.com.)
https://thisoldtractor.com/mg_manuals/motociclismo_1975-07_850_t3_english.pdf (https://thisoldtractor.com/mg_manuals/motociclismo_1975-07_850_t3_english.pdf)
(https://i.ibb.co/Q7TmkGFG/Image-5-12-26-at-11-11-PM.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Q7TmkGFG)
I'm losing track of what the argument is here, so will have to go back and re-read.
I will say that I am not fitting reality to a theory as you prefer, but instead am trying to understand a real phenomenon I take advantage of when riding.
I concede that a good enough rider could produce some amount of drift on both wheels under enough braking, but on acceleration with a ditch pump for an engine ?
Braking is not needed to produce drift, front and rear. Just a tight enough turn at speed.
By the way, you do need a good amount of power to reduce the front wheel drift by powering up the rear. When riding that V7 850 in Sicily's hills I kept the rpm at 4000 or more so that I would always have enough punch for this and other actions. If you regard the Guzzi as a ditch pump you'll get only ditch pump performance.
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There are a lot of factors that alter handling outside of steering head height and swing arm length.
Tires can drastically affect how your bike handles. I personally prefer a tire with a V shape vs. a U shape profile.
My Centauro came with set of Shinko Ravens. very round profile. Conti sport Attack 2's made for a much more confident ride and a bike that transitioned / steered faster.
My lemans III came with the wrong tire sizes. I switched to Classic attack 90/90 up front and a 110/90 in the rear. I run this combo on my 850T as well. The bikes both feel planted and handle sharply.
Guzzi's have pretty lazy steering geometry. I like a longer shock or raising the fork tubes through the triples.
Handlebar shape makes a world of difference. It's hard to beat an old school superbike bar. I made the mistake of buying a really wide set of clip on bars for my last project. There was way too much leverage for the lack of rake at the front end. every input caused the front end to over react. Shorter bars solved the issue.
I've started experimenting with reducing triple tree offset for more trail.
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You misspelled "tendency"; I know how you hate that.
Oh…?
How would you spell it ?
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I think the V85 is a wonderful handling motorcycle with neutral yet fairly light steering due to the widish bars. It also has nice suspension, something my V7II Stone did not. I hope you can take one for a test ride.
I've not ridden the new V7 850 series but everything I've read talks of nice handling, at least on smooth roads.
I have both a '22 V85 and '23 V7 Stone Special Edition. The V85 handles much better, but that's not surprising given the nicer shocks and forks. The V7 (with stock suspension & tires) feels like it is washing out a little, mostly the rear wheel.
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I was sliding both tyres through the bends on the road when I was just a teenager. :thumb:
As I went into the bend, I felt both wheels sliding, there was no heroic save however and this is not a tale of biking god-ness as I ended up face down in the road.
Best part was, my family were waiting for me at a restaurant where we were going for a meal as it was my 18th birthday and I arrived late due to the crash, covered in blood. :grin:
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Just to add some more info into the fray; you cannot accelerate, steer or brake without tire slippage. Well, you can probably accelerate just rolling downhill without slip, and stop by going uphill, but whenever you use power to alter speed and/or direction, there will be tire slip.
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Oh…?
How would you spell it ?
haha
You spelled it "tendancy" earlier.
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Yes, tires are always slipping when forces are being applied. As many know, it is possible to ride with substantial, palpable slip -- the "riding on marbles" sensation. It is pointless to argue this is imaginary.
This a precarious riding situation. If you are really good you can complete your corner in a drift, usually. This is barely safe on a race track with a well-understood surface.
If you find yourself in over your head there are a couple of things that work. One is to apply force to the road surface to right the bike. I remember as a teen first slamming my boot into the ground to save myself when both tires let go on black ice around a street corner. Marc Marquez has famously saved his motorcycle from similar track slides using his knees and elbows. Others do this too.
Nick Ienatsch was a successful American racer who regularly appeared on a Santa Monica public radio station program about motorcycling(!). He was so articulate that I listened carefully to him. I tried his advice to give it more gas when the front tire is washing out, and found this generally works if you do it aggressively. So when I have the chance to ride fast this is one of my tricks.
I think this was originally a dirt track maneuver, a way of transitioning to the tail-out flat-tracking position when needed. On a street bike the effect is usually not so extreme, but the application of force toward the center still helps. It also relieves the outward push of the front tire as the rear begins to bear the centrifugal load. Or so it seems.
Rather than trying to deduce what is possible from Newton's "Mathematical Principles" we might be better off with the inductive approach of his "Opticks". That is, we should observe facts first.
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I was sliding both tyres through the bends on the road when I was just a teenager. :thumb:
As I went into the bend, I felt both wheels sliding, there was no heroic save however and this is not a tale of biking god-ness as I ended up face down in the road.
Best part was, my family were waiting for me at a restaurant where we were going for a meal as it was my 18th birthday and I arrived late due to the crash, covered in blood. :grin:
Alright My Man!!!!
I knew someone was going to "man up" and tell us that you can still ride a motorcycle with both tires in the air and only metal contacting the asphalt!!! Right you are!!
I think that aluminum on asphalt will have a higher coefficient of friction than steel on asphalt!!! Unless the aluminum is hard anodized!
The coefficients of aluminum and aluminium on asphalt are almost identical....
After you ate, did you order desert or as some would say dessert?
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This thread reminds me of the time I bought those solid aluminum Land Speed Record wheels/tires they use at Bonneville for my track day bike.
I figured "Hey! If it makes you faster on a dry salt lake, should work on the racetrack also....."