Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Seagondollar on May 25, 2009, 07:37:26 PM
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Looks like Oberdan Bezzi is doing Guzzis. This one apparently 8V Griso and 1200 Sport based.
(http://www.nextmoto.it/wp-galleryo/moto-guzzi-drago-1200-8v-moto-guzzi-griso/_bigmoto-guzzi-drago-1200.jpg)
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That one has a nice lightness about it. A bit close to the Mana and Shiver.
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Looks OK. Breva tank on a Griso frame. Tail in the air like a bitch on heat. New headlight. Nice paint job.
BUT, same long wheel-base and suspension and same fugly can as Griso.
Photo shop? If it's not it should be. :-\
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Wasn't Drago the Soviet boxer that Rocky whipped in Rocky IV? Those were the days when Brigitte Nielsen was HOT. :o
As for the photoshopped Guzzi above. The back end is goofed up. If you going to go racer bike with a Griso frame, at least go dual-high mount exhaust and kill that dang monster can!
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Tail in the air like a bitch on heat.
same fugly can as Griso.
Those two have got to go especially the tail end. The aftermarket will fix the can. Can you imagine somebody actually riding as a passenger on that? :o
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ugly
ugly
ugly
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Tail in the air like a bitch on heat.
same fugly can as Griso.
Those two have got to go especially the tail end. The aftermarket will fix the can. Can you imagine somebody actually riding as a passenger on that? :o
The rider's seat doesn't look too comfy either.
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The Yamaha R1 is great machine as is. Why would you chop the tank and tail and put in on a griso V8. certainly not for more power, higher top speed or better handling??????
So as usually it must be just to do it. Personally if I have both bikes I'd leave'em stock ride the tires to the metal.
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Looks like Oberdan Bezzi is doing Guzzis.
Nope.
Just playing moto designer on his Mac, Photochopping bits and pieces from various bikes together...
::)
My $.02:
I really tire of seeing these Oberdan Bezzi fantasy Photoshop creations being trotted out in threads as being "the next Guzzi"...
Most of his "designs" really suck. On many levels. Anyone with basic skilz could produce this crapola and post it up on some website...
I just wish he'd fade away, maybe sleep at a Holiday Inn Express rather than playing moto designer...
Sorry... I just had to chime in...
I yield the floor...
:-\
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My $.02:
I really tire of seeing these Oberdan Bezzi fantasy Photoshop creations being trotted out in threads as being "the next Guzzi"...
Most of his "designs" really suck. On many levels. Anyone with basic skilz could produce this crapola and post it up on some website...
I just wish he'd fade away, maybe sleep at a Holiday Inn Express rather than playing moto designer...
Sorry... I just had to chime in...
I yield the floor...
:-\
And on that note, here is another one: http://www.motorcycledaily.com/19may09_sharperkatana.htm
:D
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Sounds like some people think he's an untalented Hack. I can think of several other designers in that league.
http://www.alphaomegadigital.com/oberdanbezzi/
http://www.coroflot.com/public/individual_work.asp?individual_id=64595&is_featured=-1&
I like it more than I do the Breva. (that's gonna cause some revolt)
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Sounds like some people think he's an untalented Hack. I can think of several other designers in that league.
http://www.alphaomegadigital.com/oberdanbezzi/
http://www.coroflot.com/public/individual_work.asp?individual_id=64595&is_featured=-1&
I like it more than I do the Breva. (that's gonna cause some revolt)
He's an artist, not a motorcycle designer...
It's my personal opinion, but I think most of his motorcycle renderings are simply hack jobs...
That's not taking anything away from other aspects of his "business" or his "art"...
I just don't think he's "got it" when it comes to moto design...
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>Sounds like some people think he's an untalented Hack
Yes I'm one of them. He is good with the computer, but the designs are always just wrong. And then all websites show it as if it is a real study or prototype. :-(
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His Moto Morini 9 1/2 is very nice.
(http://s3images.coroflot.com/user_files/individual_files/64595_C6m0S9XNTJbgJlbyrBQOCZH7R.jpg)
I hear that since HD owns Cagiva, they will bring the new Morini's into the US.
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Cagiva, they will bring the new Morini's into the US.
I might have missed something, but Morini has nothing with Cagiva.
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I know they used to be under the cagiva umbrelia but I guess they sold them a while back. I thought the Cagiva Raptor & Morini shared the same motors.
From a Cagiva history site:
In 1983 Cagiva signed an exclusive deal with Ducati for obtaining some of their four strokes engines. By doing so they entered the large displacement market borrowing 350cc to 1000cc Ducati engines. In the following years, the Cagiva company started buying out their competitors who were undergoing financial problems: Ducati, Moto Morini and Husqvarna. In 1986 another company was formed, called Cagiva Commerciale S.p.A having as its main objective the sale of Cagiva, Ducati, Husqvarna and Moto Morini bikes.
Due to their excellent racing record, in 1991, Cagiva bought out MV Agusta but for some unknown reason they decided to sell both Ducati and Moto Morin 5 years later in 1996.
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Looks like Oberdan Bezzi is doing Guzzis. This one apparently 8V Griso and 1200 Sport based.
(http://www.nextmoto.it/wp-galleryo/moto-guzzi-drago-1200-8v-moto-guzzi-griso/_bigmoto-guzzi-drago-1200.jpg)
Guzzi Monster...no thanks
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well then they owned Morini at the time they didn't make bikes. Morini is owned by the Morini family again. Although I heard it was for sale. Engine is a Morini design. Morini makes also for a long time small 2 stroke engines, used in scooters. Morini Franco Motori. They also build the 3 cil new Benelli engine.
The new range is designed by Luciano Marabese , the same who designs most newer guzzis.
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With the Mandello plant closing, will all future Guzzis be facelifted Aprillias?
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_JBCSy1oyahI/SkDatsInQQI/AAAAAAAAAhg/rqPc3To_Dsg/s1600/MOTO%2BGUZZI%2BSCR%2B750.jpg)
http://motosketches.blogspot.com/2009/06/moto-guzzi-scr-750-e-di-una-versione.html
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Who knows?
One thing is for sure, though...
Oberdan Bezzi will not have anything to do with it...
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One thing is for sure, though...
Oberdan Bezzi will not have anything to do with it...
Do you dislike Oberdan Bezzi's concepts? For all I know, he may not even be a designer. He may be just some guy who likes drawing motocycles with good Photoshop skills. However, I'd take him over Pierre Terblanche.
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For all I know, he may not even be a designer. He may be just some guy who likes drawing motocycles with good Photoshop skills.
Bingo!
It's not that I don't like some of his PS skliz, it's that he's just some artist d00d who has friends that put his "concepts" in articles in ways that make the uninitiated think the renderings are something other than pure armchair fantasy...
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Looks like a great bike to me, and I bet for a 750 it isn't underpowered ;)
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For all I know, he may not even be a designer.
Il mio vero nome (in basso a destra nei disegni) è infatti OBERDAN BEZZI , designer di motociclette per professione e soprattutto per passione.
My real name (bottom right in the drawings) is Oberdan BEZZI, motorcycle designer by profession and especially passion.
That, of course, is his own statement.
This design doesn't appeal to me, but the Shiver does.
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As long as he puts his name on his drawings people will know they are just his concepts. It is the speculative websites which suggest these concepts are real models. Anyone who reads the magazines and websites you can tell what is real, what is a possibility, and what has no chance at production.
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I love the scrambler. I wonder how many of the scramblers Triumph sold last year? Anyways, I like this modern Guzzi scrambler better. The red Instinct is cool too. Do the gas tanks remind you of the sportster tank?
(http://www.sportbikez.net/bikepics/125/medium/1250056517.jpg)
(http://www.sportbikez.net/bikepics/125/medium/1250056565.jpg)
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That design looks OK ;-T Where does the exhaust go on the red one? To the left side somewhere, I guess.
But the yellow... Besides being a really ugly can on the yellow one, I imagine the location of the exhaust pipe would cook up your leg pretty well - even with that cute little heat shield.
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Where does the exhaust go on the red one?
Look through the spokes, just above the CARC.
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Obviously being a Q owner my taste in bikes is not mainstream.If these 2 examples are indicative of Guzzi's new offerings then heaven help them.The coffin tank and chintzy V-Max scoops?
Tell me this is just a photo shop exercise gone horribly bad. :-[
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Tell me this is just a photo shop exercise gone horribly bad.
Same photochop you always see on "raptors n rockets" or whatever it's called. None of these ever come to fruition.
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This appears to be simply HD XR1200 bodywork warped/compressed in Photoshop to fit a Bellagio.
I love Photoshop, but I hate Photoshop. It's a great tool, but too many people do chintzy stuff like this with thier mad photochopping skilz.
::)
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Good lord.
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OK, these weird :D bikes are from Oberdan Bezzi Design. I think this one is a little better, almost a cross between a Griso and a Japanese sport bike. ;)
(http://www.motorcyclenews.com/upload/222491/images/M.G.%20DRAGO%201200.jpg)
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It's a cross between an Aprilia Shiver and a Griso. Please, Guzzi: no ant-face headlights.
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It's a cross between an Aprilia Shiver and a Griso. Please, Guzzi: no ant-face headlights.
I think KTM started the angular styling trend. I don't understand why every bike has to have a headlight shaped like a limp dick and giant radiator shrouds now whether it's got a radiator or not.
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This appears to be simply HD XR1200 bodywork warped/compressed in Photoshop to fit a Bellagio.
I love Photoshop, but I hate Photoshop. It's a great tool, but too many people do chintzy stuff like this with thier mad photochopping skilz.
::)
My first impression was that I liked the look! Just one of those opinion things ....
Lannis
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Curves last; angles go out of style.
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Hmm I percieve a problem for those of us with ducks disease. :-\ I like the top one...but rounder please..
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paint it orange and black and it would look sort of like a HD XR750.
JB
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Don't shoot, I'm just the messenger.
http://www.motorcycledaily.com/03March10_BezziStel.htm
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I'd have to see the front before I passed verdict. I've only recently accepted the current 58 Chevy headlights.
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I love the bike and would love to ride one. I also liked the Quota's. Dual sports are a blast!!
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A slightly different version, of a fairly limited production bike, from a quirky company that is marketed to iconoclastic customers.... I'm sold. But - as stated above, I need more photos.
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Don't shoot, I'm just the messenger.
http://www.motorcycledaily.com/03March10_BezziStel.htm
I couldn't see any difference - what's he supposed to have done to it?
The test writeup is certainly nice, and accurate as far as I can tell from my two rides. I wouldn't leave it in fifth gear at 80 MPH up, though, I thought it had plenty of passing punch in sixth in a roll-on ....
Lannis
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Don't shoot, I'm just the messenger.
http://www.motorcycledaily.com/03March10_BezziStel.htm
I couldn't see any difference - what's he supposed to have done to it?
The test writeup is certainly nice, and accurate as far as I can tell from my two rides. I wouldn't leave it in fifth gear at 80 MPH up, though, I thought it had plenty of passing punch in sixth in a roll-on ....
Lannis
Look like he took the "Aprillia'ish" oragmi front piece and gave is a smoother look. I would prefer that myself, but I suspect he did not leave room for the dashboard, ECU and relay panel that it hides in there.
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This would be nice for sure!
http://www.twowheelsblog.com/post/3304/moto-guzzi-daytona-and-sport-renderings-by-oberdan-bezzi
~; ~; ~; ;-T
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Hmmm, very generic.
Which is wierd, since this Bezzi guy has no real-world constraints on his work, all he does is create images.
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Non-Guzzi looking. :P
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:o
I don't even care that they are just drawings, if those do go into production a few years from now and they look just like, or close to, those renderings, I'll certainly be putting a deposit down for one. S or R though, hmmmmm.
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I like them, best of the bunch in the mostly yellow.
8)
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I like this one best - ;-T
(http://static.blogo.it/twowheelsblog/guzzi-daytona-e-sport-by-oberdan-bezzi-01/MGDAYTONAR.jpg)
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Me too. ;-T
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I know what you are saying Robot, but I think for the flagship bike slightly generic is OK by me. All the "way out" designs in the last 10 years look mostly quite dates now; wheras the "generic" look of the 1998 R1 for example still looks really good. Triumph got it spot on with thier 675 Daytona - people who know sportsbikes can easily recognise it, but its "in the ballpark" of the basic style so doesn't scare the horses.
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If those tires are normal sized this bike puts a new meaning to, "Climb aboard." ::)
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I know what you are saying Robot, but I think for the flagship bike slightly generic is OK by me. All the "way out" designs in the last 10 years look mostly quite dates now; wheras the "generic" look of the 1998 R1 for example still looks really good. Triumph got it spot on with thier 675 Daytona - people who know sportsbikes can easily recognise it, but its "in the ballpark" of the basic style so doesn't scare the horses.
Agreed... ;-T
The 675 Daytona would be my choice du jour if I was shopping a new Sport Bike Right Now..
I like its engine size and layout, and the tank feels "slimmer" from a Rider's perspective than those super bulbous monstrosities that pass for Fuel Tanks on most Sport Bikes nowadays..
Either one of these two would do... 8)
(http://www.triumph.co.uk/images/Daytona675_gallery_main_1_2008.jpg)(http://assets1.triumphmotorcycles.co.uk/images/motorcycles/Daytona-PhaBlackGold-RHS-384x233.jpg)
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Well, if they could knock off 50-100kg, and add 50-100hp, it could be interesting!
Tom
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I like! But it would be nice if they consider building bikes similar in ergos to Yamaha's FZ1 and FZ6 bikes ..... sporty, but with more conventional ergos.
A pure sports bike, with a screaming water-cooled version with 12:1 compression ratio, and overhead cams would be a Duc competitor (maybe), with comparable hp. Love the looks of the engine/exhaust combination ..... maybe one of the sexiest things about Guzzis.
Bob
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(http://static.blogo.it/twowheelsblog/guzzi-daytona-e-sport-by-oberdan-bezzi-01/MGDAYTONAR.jpg)
Still way better:
(http://www.mcnews.com.au/Wallpaper/MotoGuzzi/2004_Corsa/Corsa_LHF_1024.jpg)
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Aprilia built a prototype very much like this in roughly 2002. I have a photo someplace. Too generic for my taste.
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Knock off 100kg and add 100hp??? Why not just buy a MotoGP bike then - I cant think of too many bikes that weigh 100-120kgs and make 200+hp.....
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(http://static.blogo.it/twowheelsblog/guzzi-daytona-e-sport-by-oberdan-bezzi-01/MGDAYTONAR.jpg)
Still way better:
(http://www.mcnews.com.au/Wallpaper/MotoGuzzi/2004_Corsa/Corsa_LHF_1024.jpg)
Sigh... If only an MGS-01 or 02 or 01a or 1100 MGS or 1200 MGS... and for you smallblock lovers a V75 MGS Damn but it is frustrating to think that the basics are all there, they just need to glue-em together and polish em up. Aaaarrrghhh! :BEER:
Eric
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If you look at the naked version, it is easy to see they are using the griso asymmetrical header pipe / routing to left side, yet the undertail exit suggests a ducati style dual exhaust exit....or maybe its like (I think) one of the honda cbr models with a single underseat exit. Overall, nice but derivative.
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I kinda like the Millepercento 1200 - ;-T
http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/bikes/millepercento-alba-arrives-eicma/
(http://www.perthstreetbikes.com/66693/mpc3.jpg)
(http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/wp-content/gallery/millepercento-alba-at-eicma/alba-millepercento-eicma-4.jpg)
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Knock off 100kg and add 100hp??? Why not just buy a MotoGP bike then - I cant think of too many bikes that weigh 100-120kgs and make 200+hp.....
Modern Guzzis weigh in a 250+kg with fuel, and have 80-100 RWHP, modern superbikes are 50-100 kg lighter, and 50-100 more HP than that.
Personally, 180kg (with fuel) and 130HP would be fine (and realistic).
Tom
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I know what you are saying Robot, but I think for the flagship bike slightly generic is OK by me. All the "way out" designs in the last 10 years look mostly quite dates now; wheras the "generic" look of the 1998 R1 for example still looks really good. Triumph got it spot on with thier 675 Daytona - people who know sportsbikes can easily recognise it, but its "in the ballpark" of the basic style so doesn't scare the horses.
Agreed... ;-T
The 675 Daytona would be my choice du jour if I was shopping a new Sport Bike Right Now..
I like its engine size and layout, and the tank feels "slimmer" from a Rider's perspective than those super bulbous monstrosities that pass for Fuel Tanks on most Sport Bikes nowadays..
Either one of these two would do... 8)
(http://www.triumph.co.uk/images/Daytona675_gallery_main_1_2008.jpg)(http://assets1.triumphmotorcycles.co.uk/images/motorcycles/Daytona-PhaBlackGold-RHS-384x233.jpg)
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It'd be interesting having two Daytona's in the garage ;-T Very nicely done, I like it, best looking Guzzi in a long time 8)
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Knock off 100kg and add 100hp??? Why not just buy a MotoGP bike then - I cant think of too many bikes that weigh 100-120kgs and make 200+hp.....
Modern Guzzis weigh in a 250+kg with fuel, and have 80-100 RWHP, modern superbikes are 50-100 kg lighter, and 50-100 more HP than that.
Personally, 180kg (with fuel) and 130HP would be fine (and realistic).
Tom
And there in lies the rub.
Everybody seems to think that there is some sort of *magical* HP/Litre figure and any machine that doesn't have a motor that meets that is somehow falling down on the job. The thing is that for a 1200cc engine the current Guzzi donk is NEVER going to produce the *required* power. Nor is it going to ever be 'Light'. What it does have is a continuing charm of its own and ample performance for everyday road use.
On the subject of 'Looks'? Yes, I think that most modern bikes of the sporting type are as sexy as all get-out, if very 'samey', in the same way that all pommy parallel twins of the 1950's and 60's were 'samey'. Sure, you could dress up an 8V Guzzi like an R6 and then you really are trying to compete in the same market, and it will fail abysmally. You can though design a bike that *looks* like a sports bike using one of the current platforms, but its got to be *different* enough that it isn't chasing the same customers. Bodywork a-la MGS-01 on a Griso platform would sell, I know it would, but it ain't gunna happen.
Regardless of how frustrating this is the simple answer to the continually asked question of 'Whither a Guzzi Sportsbike?' is easy. Buy something else! I personally love the looks of the Aprilia RSV-4, especially in white. Why don't I have one? Becuase I don't have the skills to really use it and my licence takes enough of a beating on my Griso and Mana, never mind something with 1/4 less weight and half as much power again! I'm not into track-days, nor am I into wobbling 30 Km's to a cafe so I can sip a Latte and look smug while people gurn at my bikes. If Piaggio think that is the way ahead for guzzi? That's fine, it may even be profitable, but it won't include me in the customer base.
Pete
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1. Horsepower/weight ratio
Why can't Guzzi get an amount of power out of the V twin similiar to what BMW gets out of the flat twin ? BMW's "tuned" boxer is producing 20-30 HP more than the Guzzi.
Also, maybe the time has arrived to re-examine the the engine, trans and CARC casting designs in an effort to reduce the weight of the drive train.
Less weight and a tad more HP would help the Guzzi. I do not, however, see any purpose in Guzzi trying to match the crotch rockets, head to head. Shooting at BMW's twins seems to be logical, though.
I love and prefer the V twin engine over the flat twin but my BMW 1200S is so far ahead of any Guzzi insofar as performance, power and handling, there is no comparison. Going from it back to a Guzzi seems like getting off a Corvette and getting on a John Deere.
2. Design
Those "concept" pictures shown at the beginning of the thread look like somebody photoshopped a universal japanese fairing onto a Guzzi running gear. Not very imaginative.
The MGS 01, though over a decade old, looks much better to me. A little tweaking of those lines and streamlining the running gear seems to make sense to me.
I cannot see that happening. With new designers such as Terblanche on the payroll, they're gonna want to push something new, something that is their's. I'd be prepared for something much more wonkish if Terblanche is true to his record.
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And there in lies the rub.
Everybody seems to think that there is some sort of *magical* HP/Litre figure and any machine that doesn't have a motor that meets that is somehow falling down on the job. The thing is that for a 1200cc engine the current Guzzi donk is NEVER going to produce the *required* power. Nor is it going to ever be 'Light'. What it does have is a continuing charm of its own and ample performance for everyday road use.
On the subject of 'Looks'? Yes, I think that most modern bikes of the sporting type are as sexy as all get-out, if very 'samey', in the same way that all pommy parallel twins of the 1950's and 60's were 'samey'. Sure, you could dress up an 8V Guzzi like an R6 and then you really are trying to compete in the same market, and it will fail abysmally. You can though design a bike that *looks* like a sports bike using one of the current platforms, but its got to be *different* enough that it isn't chasing the same customers. Bodywork a-la MGS-01 on a Griso platform would sell, I know it would, but it ain't gunna happen.
Regardless of how frustrating this is the simple answer to the continually asked question of 'Whither a Guzzi Sportsbike?' is easy. Buy something else! I personally love the looks of the Aprilia RSV-4, especially in white. Why don't I have one? Becuase I don't have the skills to really use it and my licence takes enough of a beating on my Griso and Mana, never mind something with 1/4 less weight and half as much power again! I'm not into track-days, nor am I into wobbling 30 Km's to a cafe so I can sip a Latte and look smug while people gurn at my bikes. If Piaggio think that is the way ahead for guzzi? That's fine, it may even be profitable, but it won't include me in the customer base.
Pete
Bingo chicken choker. A Guzzi is what it is; a very pleasing roadster. If you want a road worthy race bike then buy the RSV-4. The Guzzi platform gives you a better chance to get the power down at lower (legal) speeds, gives you the Carc for better long range capability, and gives you a better platform for gross weight. To try to compete in the moden road racer category just doesn't make sense.
And with the under seat exhaust how can you mount your painers? Are we really going to accept trailering a Guzzi to a rally?
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Aprilia has a history of designing bikes with high development cost that subsequently sell in low volume: the Caponord, Futura, the V-twin dirt bikes, and the Shiver. The big block Breva was actually a success in that company even if it sold well for only a year or two. They've also done better when designing for BMW.
I think the reason for that fairly abysmal track record is Aprilia's acceptance of existing market categories. Instead of looking at what they've got in terms of drive trains and making a new and enjoyable motorcycle, they constrain themselves to making bikes that are much like the competition. Growth does not happen that way - the Ducati Monster for instance didn't become a great success by competing directly with bikes in the existing market, and Aprilia's best success so far with Guzzi (the Griso) didn't either.
With that in mind, I think a nice Guzzi sportbike could be designed that people would buy and enjoy... But it probably wouldn't look like anything else. I don't think Aprilia has it in them.
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I'd be prepared for something much more wonkish if Terblanche is true to his record.
Personally, I'm quite fond of my Terblanche bikes (SS1000 and 999R).
Tom
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I can ubnderstand the racers with the jacked up passenger seat. But I questions the styling on a Breva or Norge type bike. How many people drag their passengers feet in corners? How many people are that comfortable with their passengers at sporting lean angles?
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Some good discussion here. I agree with Leaf, that for a sporting/playbike Guzzi they should be aiming at the R1200S (though I would not its no longer in production..hmmm). I think it had a superb and unique look with the engine on display. Yes it had a sporting intent, and could be a runner in the fast group in a track day with the right rider. But it also incorparated little touches of practicality. You could get hard luggage for it. Heated grips, a taller screen etc etc. Plenty of folks from here bought them, rode them to the Alps and back and had a fine old time there.
I'm with Mr Roper on this weight/power thing. If you want to race go and race. I ride on the road. And another thing while I'm on a roll ;D a few years ago a magazine over here placed a empty GS BMW on the scales and then did the same with a 996 Ducati - the result was the Ducati was less than 5kgs lighter than BMW!! Don't believe those spec sheets all the time - Guzzi and BMW are some of the few companies that put a relatively "truthfull" weight on them.
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Here is the real prototype I mentioned above... several years old now, apparently not something they wanted to proceed with.
(http://s4.postimage.org/HR4D9.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/2h0ubslpg/)
(http://s4.postimage.org/HRjB0.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/2h1490oo4/)
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Don't believe those spec sheets all the time - Guzzi and BMW are some of the few companies that put a relatively "truthfull" weight on them.
5 or 6 years ago, I went to a Guzzi raduno near Modena.
They had a scale, and if you could guess the weight of your bike within 500g, you got a bottle of wine.
I was on my ST2, I had filled the tank just before arriving. I guessed 225kg, but as I was only 300g too high, I got a bottle.
Numerous Guzzis tried and failed, most were surprised to find that they were all around 245kg!
How many people are that comfortable with their passengers at sporting lean angles?
I am, but it depends on the bike.
My daughter always complained when I'd scrape hard parts on the LeMans, never have had that problem with the Ducatis.
My SS is the best for two up, as it's 45 kg lighter than my ST2. The LeMans is better now, I've ground away most of the bits that previously scraped, and weighs a couple kg less than the ST2, but has a horrible seat and my girlfriend can't take it for more than a few hours.
Tom
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1. Horsepower/weight ratio
Why can't Guzzi get an amount of power out of the V twin similiar to what BMW gets out of the flat twin ? BMW's "tuned" boxer is producing 20-30 HP more than the Guzzi.
Because BMW has been pouring cubic dollars into the development of their bikes for the past couple decades now, funded by comparative chump change from their very successful automobile side of the ledger [a resource which neither Guzzi nor Piaggio has to fall back on]?
Also, maybe the time has arrived to re-examine the the engine, trans and CARC casting designs in an effort to reduce the weight of the drive train.
Long overdue, really. From Pete's Roperisms I've pretty much concluded that the CARC was designed mostly for looks, & actually weighs more (unsprung!) than the exposed shaft&swingarm that it replaced. No need for that, esp. when the casting could have been designed to take large GRP covers over much of it's perimeter to make it light & still weather tight...
Less weight and a tad more HP would help the Guzzi. I do not, however, see any purpose in Guzzi trying to match the crotch rockets, head to head. Shooting at BMW's twins seems to be logical, though.
Yup, yup, yup. Only way to get the less wt. would be to break down & abandon the steel frame tho'.[1] Even Harley hasn't seen fit to do that, despite the fact that their products would benefit HUMONGOUSLY from an improved power/wt ratio. But the proper design of aluminum frames can be tricksy: just ask Honda w/ the initial batch of GL1800s... ::)
2. Design
Those "concept" pictures shown at the beginning of the thread look like somebody photoshopped a universal japanese fairing onto a Guzzi running gear. Not very imaginative.
The MGS 01, though over a decade old, looks much better to me. A little tweaking of those lines and streamlining the running gear seems to make sense to me.
I cannot see that happening. With new designers such as Terblanche on the payroll, they're gonna want to push something new, something that is their's. I'd be prepared for something much more wonkish if Terblanche is true to his record.
We are 100% in agreement, sir! ;-T
[1] With the assumption that a total redesign of the motor is out of the question.
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CARC, 6 speed trans and angular styling cues are fashion statements. A pure sportbike from Moto Guzzi would alienate most of the customer base. Improved versions like the California Vintage are their forte. Look what Greg did with his Eldo. Improve the California like they did for the '98 EV and they'd have another winner.
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A pure sportbike from Moto Guzzi would alienate most of the customer base.
Yet that's why I bought my LeMans (new) in '85.
And that's why I won't buy another Guzzi until they have something better (and to my tastes) to offer.
Tom
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Here is the real prototype I mentioned above... several years old now, apparently not something they wanted to proceed with.
(http://s4.postimage.org/HR4D9.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/2h0ubslpg/)
(http://s4.postimage.org/HRjB0.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/2h1490oo4/)
Too bad on them. That looks very nice.. ;-T
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Aprilia has a history of designing bikes with high development cost that subsequently sell in low volume: the Caponord, Futura, the V-twin dirt bikes, and the Shiver. I don't think Aprilia has it in them.
So the fact in Europe the RSV V twin outsold Ducati's Vtwin superbike 4 to 1 but didn't make much headway in the US makes it a failure? Few of my no good friends are into super motards. The Aprilia Vtwin is buy far the most popular I think people have to realise that just because it didn't work in the USA doesn't make it a failure. With the US dollar in the state it is and looking at a long slow recovery its is more likely that manufacturers are going to concentrate on their home markets. BMW has just introduced DOHC on their boxer motors if it revs harder it will make more power simple as that.
I'd like to see something with sporting pretensions out of Guzzi but the the design in the original post is a little too generic IMO. As Pete said if you are going to make it look like an R6 it better go like one otherwise its going to fail and you just can't get that out of the current motor/drive line. But you look at this board there is this thread whining that proposals are too generic, there is another one whining that things like the LM12 are too radical. The threads often contain impossible weight and power demands preferably out of points ignition and carburettors if I remember rightly the original Guzzi Daytona wasn't exactly a sales success total production was under 2000 across all variants and years. I think they only made around 4500 of the much more successful 1100 sport both bikes were around 15years ago when a fast sport bike made just over 120hp and weighed around 220kgs now they make 180ish hp and weigh under 200kgs. If Guzzi really want to make a sports bike they really need to put the aircooled Vtwin with shaft drive out to pasture with its customer base and start from scratch.
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Do any of the sport style bikes use even a third of the rear fender clearance?
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Cool ::) 90 years of Guzzi history and Italian design and he's managed to style a bike like a Jap inline - 4. Maybe the yellow one a bit like an SV650.
A bike that looks like that will, right or wrong, be compared by prospective buyers to all the 600 and 1000cc Jap super sports, and it will fall down miserably. Shaft drive, air cooled twin is a relic of a design compared to what's in modern sport bikes. Don't dress it up like one then, or you're going to find yourself in a market you can't compete in... Especially without any form of race program to build some sporting legitimacy.
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Do any of the sport style bikes use even a third of the rear fender clearance?
With my fat rear on them unfortunately yes. I'll take full length travel suspension over the supposed aesthetic values of a wheel hugging fender any day.
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Aprilia has a history of designing bikes with high development cost that subsequently sell in low volume: the Caponord, Futura, the V-twin dirt bikes, and the Shiver. I don't think Aprilia has it in them.
So the fact in Europe the RSV V twin outsold Ducati's Vtwin superbike 4 to 1 but didn't make much headway in the US makes it a failure? Few of my no good friends are into super motards. The Aprilia Vtwin is buy far the most popular I think people have to realise that just because it didn't work in the USA doesn't make it a failure. With the US dollar in the state it is and looking at a long slow recovery its is more likely that manufacturers are going to concentrate on their home markets. BMW has just introduced DOHC on their boxer motors if it revs harder it will make more power simple as that.
I've done the majority of my motorcycling in Europe the past few years, and was talking about the world market.
The Rotax engined Aprlia is what I'd term a legacy product, designed 13+ years ago when Aprilia had no engine capability. The RSV Mille was their one significant success, and gave them the money to blow on all the subsequent failures. But any Mille engined Aprilia is long in tooth, has a non-Piaggio engine and is bring replaced by the 8V Piaggio twin. The RSV actually sold pretty well in the US eight-ten years ago, and was their most successful product in the US market. But none of the Tuono etc follow-ons have been much of a factor anywhere for over five years. Where the idea that they might sell at 4x the volume of 8V Ducatis in the here and now or within the last few years I haven't a clue.
I don't think Aprilia is selling much of any non-scooter model very successfully in 2010, worldwide. Given their failures with Guzzi to date, I'm now inclined to believe Guzzi will go away in the next few years, something I've never really envisaged before. I could be wrong, hope so.
BMW is doing very well in the world market, and particularly in the US.
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Not really crazy about any one of them. Truth be told they could take their name off it and put Yamaha on it( change the engine too ?) But if they are going into the Super Bike way Go for full body , Fiber Body? THey should put some thing SPECIAL and DIFFERENT, these look like the same stuff coming from the other Italian companies or a Japan copy just a different engine? Make it special and they will come to buy it ? Heck your only selling 500 bikes a year here ? ??? ???
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I still don't know why Oberdan Bezzi is published... :-\
Photoshop fantasy art... :-\
Waste of bandwidth...
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I still don't know why Oberdan Bezzi is published... :-\
Photoshop fantasy art... :-\
Waste of bandwidth...
If it's a waste of bandwidth, why are we talking about it?
Sounds like a legitimate sounding board that cost the company NOTHING!
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Underseat mufflers have to go. Get the weight under the tranny where it belongs.
Tobit
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I still don't know why Oberdan Bezzi is published... :-\
Photoshop fantasy art... :-\
Waste of bandwidth...
If it's a waste of bandwidth, why are we talking about it?
Sounds like a legitimate sounding board that cost the company NOTHING!
"The Company" ??
He's freelance. Guzzi didn't pay him to paste a Guzzi mill into a Triumph 675 Daytona.
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Here's a concept that I'd seriously look at.
(http://www.motorradonline.de/sixcms/media.php/11/guzzi_v8.jpg)
Sorry I know nothing about it but if Guzzi wanted a sports bike that stood out from the crowd this would do it IMO.
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Here's a concept that I'd seriously look at.
(http://www.motorradonline.de/sixcms/media.php/11/guzzi_v8.jpg)
Sorry I know nothing about it but if Guzzi wanted a sports bike that stood out from the crowd this would do it IMO.
You buy it, I wouldn't.
Dean
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Here's a concept that I'd seriously look at.
(http://www.motorradonline.de/sixcms/media.php/11/guzzi_v8.jpg)
Sorry I know nothing about it but if Guzzi wanted a sports bike that stood out from the crowd this would do it IMO.
Too much tupperware that soils the look of the beautiful engine >:( . I personally think the new designs need to focus directly on the engines..... ;-T
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Here's a concept that I'd seriously look at.
(http://www.motorradonline.de/sixcms/media.php/11/guzzi_v8.jpg)
Sorry I know nothing about it but if Guzzi wanted a sports bike that stood out from the crowd this would do it IMO.
Too much tupperware that soils the look of the beautiful engine >:( . I personally think the new designs need to focus directly on the engines..... ;-T
I don't think this bike would have the air cooled Vtwin something more along the lines of a water cooled V8.
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And it has a "GASP" chain drive!
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I was wondering when someone would point that out. ;D
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The thing looks fantastic! Harkins directly to the killer GP bikes of the 50s which Guzzi dominated.
Not sure how practical of a design, with so much plastic out over the front axel, but sure looks Speed Racer cool!
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And performance thats a bit more than pretty good for an aircooled Vtwin. If the Guzzi/aprilia engineers got all excited they could have a hyabusa killer on their hands! :o
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This may have been posted before but here goes.
http://www.coseguzzistiche.it/rsdesign.php?lang=it
Steve
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Very nice link here are a few i like
(http://www.coseguzzistiche.it/std/db_files/rsdesign/natale_andrea/boz/california_EV_050302.jpg)
(http://www.coseguzzistiche.it/std/db_files/rsdesign/bezzi_oberdan/boz/SuperCalifornia_1400.jpg)
(http://www.coseguzzistiche.it/std/db_files/rsdesign/bezzi_oberdan/boz/GB_MOTOCICLETTA.jpg)
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(http://www.coseguzzistiche.it/std/db_files/rsdesign/rossi_mirko/boz/Audax_1200.jpg)
Hmmm. Look familiar?
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(http://www.motorcyclespecs.co.za/Oberdan%20Bezzi/Oberdan%20Bezzi%20McDeeb%20Hurricane.jpg)
Oberdan Bezzi McDeeb Hurricane
I think it would look good too with an SB motor. ;-T
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They owe Craig Vetter a royalty. Maybe Royal Enfield for the engine. Certainly Adobe for the Paintshop.
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I was thinking of buying a Stelvio, but I have some issues with the bike like the tall seat, small tank etc.
I was thinking of tweaking my Breva 1100 toward the "scrambler" style and get most of what I need.
But I need some suggestions for the best way to proceed. (or give up and buy a Quota/Stelvio)
Tires: This seems easy. Lots of 90/10 stuff out there.
Exhaust: It seems there are 3 possibilities: Stelvio - Quota - Scramber prototype. Any thoughts?
Skid plate: ?
Ground clearance issues: ?
Your thoughts are welcome.
Mike
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raise that front fender!
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It really depends on what you want the bike to do that it doesn't already do and what compromises you are willing to live with.
As an example you have concerns about high seat height on the Stelvio and about ground clearance on the Breva. You can't get both, you have to compromise. Are you really going to be jumping logs on what is a pretty heavy bike, or is it the look that appeals?
It's the versatility of the Adv. tourer that appeals. The possibility of exploring dirt roads/dual tracks when on tour.
M
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The new Stelvio has an 8.5 gallon tank...
For the Breva, you could start with a set of Stelvio wheels and some Heidenau K60 Scout tires.
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I've thought about trading my B1100 for a Stelvio. The more I think of the things I can do with the Stelvio the more I realize the Breva does the things I feel are important to me. I really have no need to take a 600+ lb. motorcycle off road in Ohio unless I'm in southern Ohio. The seat height thing is tuff too, mostly with a passenger up that high. I do like the more stretched out roominess of the Stelvio but so far that's not worth a change for me. I hope you do this project, it sounds interesting.
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Here's the Ducati Monster off roader -
(http://s9.postimage.org/pbnekpf7v/ducati_terra_mostro_5.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/pbnekpf7v/)
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I have a friend who owns a BMW RT. He refuses to allow the wheels to touch gravel because, "It's not made for that. That's what the GS is for." He's a friend...but not a close friend. I try not to slap him when he says dumb shit like that.
The only thing stopping you from riding on a gravel road is you. There are more options for tires in 17" than there ever used to be. Scorpion Sync's would be a good choice. I used to ride all over VT and NH on hard packed gravel roads when I had my 1200 Sport. A Stelvio bash plate would bolt right on your Breva. Swap out the Breva bars for a set of Sport risers. Then you could use a Renthal Fatbar in something like an ATV mid-bend. The Stelvio handguards would fit but I'd probably go for a set of Tusk D-Flex or Barkbusters. Stucchi crash bars for the Norge would give you the most crash protection.
That's about as "scrambler" as I'd go with one. Making it any more dirt worthy than that is going to hamper its' on road manners. On smooth gravel...it would be great.
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There are more options for tires in 17" than there ever used to be.
That's true.
Continental has released the TKC80 in 120/70-17 this year.
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Ground clearance on the Breva is not to bad to start with anyway, don't know the exact number, but it is quite a bit more than many motorcycles.
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Good idea, I take my B1100 everywhere, dirt roads, beaches it handles them no problem.
You could look at the GTR high muffler from Guzzi Tech......
http://forum.guzzitech.com/store/product/73-gt-r-mufflers/category_pathway-29.html
I have the Mana bars on mine but you would want to go higher as the riding position is not ideal when standing on the pegs, bars are too low.
The sump guard thingy that is on the Breva does a good job of bouncing rocks off but you may need something more substantial if off roading all the time. Johns Ideas are the way I would go.
Tyres, yep lots of choice there. The wheels on the Breva are pretty hardy, I have hit some big potholes and gone over some pretty rough terrain here in Christchurch after the earthquakes (best way to get around with flooded roads and most of them like sand dunes after the liquifaction) and they have stayed true.
The Breva is an amazing all rounder, looking forward to seeing what you come up with.
The ground clearance for Breva is 185mm according to the manual.
Oh and don't forget to do the CARC breather mod before submerging the rear end in water.
Stretch
(http://s12.postimage.org/6m0dpoqvt/File0159.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/6m0dpoqvt/)
90 Mile Beach NZ last Summer
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Apparently these Triumph pipes have been modified to use on a Guzzi to make a Scrambler type.
(http://s13.postimage.org/45pip42hv/image.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/45pip42hv/)
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There is no reason not to take your bike on the occasional dirt road, even with "Street" tires.
I rode my Breva up and over Old Fall River Road in Rocky Mountain National Park last summer much to the amusement of the Japanese tourists whom I recruited to take my picture.
www.nps.gov/romo/planyourvisit/old_fall_river_road.htm
Skippy
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I'm going that way, next time I'm passing through the park! ;-T
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A 1200 Sport or even an early Norge would be better a better starting point. They have the lower gear ratio's in the transmission and a little more low end torque.
For the Breva, you could start with a set of Stelvio wheels and some Heidenau K60 Scout tires.
The tire sizes on the new Stelvio's are way better on dirt & gravel than the Breva's.
The Stelvio rear tire is taller and would make the Breva even higher geared than it already is.
With the taller front tire it would surely give it to much trail and would need the Stelvio forks or some that are offset forward like the Stelvio's to reduce the increased trail.
Properly setup I think a 2V Breva Dualsport would be a very capable / fun bike. ;D
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do you have more info on the triumph pipes?
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do you have more info on the triumph pipes?
There is at least one V7 Cafe Classic running around with custom headpipes and the Triumph mufflers.
This was posted in the "V7 Crap" thread. I PMd the guy over at ADVrider, but no response:
(http://img.tapatalk.com/cdfa03df-2ab3-345c.jpg)
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I really like this MG scrambler. :drool
(http://www.motorcyclenews.com/upload/255266/images/MG%20940%20SCRAMBLER%20INSTINCT.jpg)
Too bad it is not in production. The stock bike will take you more places than you would want to go. But it will be a great project.
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I really like this MG scrambler. :drool
That's not a "MG Scrambler".
It's Photoshop Phantasy Art by Oberdan Bezzi.
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I really like this MG scrambler. :drool
(http://www.motorcyclenews.com/upload/255266/images/MG%20940%20SCRAMBLER%20INSTINCT.jpg)
Too bad it is not in production. The stock bike will take you more places than you would want to go. But it will be a great project.
Very tasty!
M
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Very tasty!
M
Now, all you need to do is adapt Harley XR1200 bodywork to your Breva...
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There is at least one V7 Cafe Classic running around with custom headpipes and the Triumph mufflers.
This was posted in the "V7 Crap" thread. I PMd the guy over at ADVrider, but no response:
(http://img.tapatalk.com/cdfa03df-2ab3-345c.jpg)
Got a message from the "Cafe Scrambler" guy:
"Mike,
The cans are Scrambler but the head pipes are custom made by a local fab shop in town.
Worked out pretty good.
Owen."
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I love my 1200 Sport, and it's the best all-around bike in my stable, but I can think of other (sub 500 lb) platforms I would turn into a scrambler if I expected to venture off-road much. Physics is physics.
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I don't see that you have a problem. Put on some dual sport rubber, get some custom bent headers 2:1 (maybe a quota geader will fit) and put on a suppertrapp muffler.. Search ebay fr Quots bits that can make the conversion (front wheel, etc.
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looks like a smaller Stelvio is finally in the making.
http://motosketches.blogspot.com/2014/11/moto-guzzi-stelvio-940.html
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I like it,
keep dreaming....
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Why would they bother? Can't possibly be much lighter and would have less power and torque. Looks like a photo shop job to me. Griso exhaust?
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The
Pushrod
Engine
Big
Block
Is
No
More
Get
Over
It!!!
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Looks like a photo shop job to me. Griso exhaust?
Griso exhaust, Honda Crosstourer saddle, tank and headlight.
A smaller Stelvio is probably coming, but it will never be made with the 940 engine.
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That's still too big and too heavy. It should be based on a "new" V7 790 or 820 small block motor.
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another Bezzi cut and paste photoshop job.
just what the world, and the internet needed... :-\
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When we get a small stelvio it will be like the old 750 ntx in more modern clothes, 48hp.
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... a small stelvio it will be like the old 750 ntx in more modern clothes, 48hp.
That will be more than adequate to meet my touring needs. I rode a lot of miles on a 650 Strom and it had plenty for the mountains, even heavily loaded.
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Here is the page with a literal translation....
https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fmotosketches.blogspot.com%2F2014%2F11%2Fmoto-guzzi-stelvio-940.html
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Here is the page with a literal translation....
https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fmotosketches.blogspot.com%2F2014%2F11%2Fmoto-guzzi-stelvio-940.html
Pure fantasy.
For me, this is an example of the bad part of the internet. Anyone can post up a photoshop image, dream up some text, and then people believe that this is some sort of company prototype, rather than the fantasy artwork of a dreamer who isn't even connected to the company.
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Exactly. A waste of electrons.
With the V7-II the factory now has a powerplant virtually ideal for a 'Mini Stelvio'. Ideally it would be a bit shorter and dry-sumping it would make sense but cost money but stick it in a decent frame with modern suspension and it would be ideal for people who don't suffer some form of *Inadequacy* issues.
Six speeds means better flexibility of gearing. The current power output is quite sufficient to propel it down the road at an adequate velocity and it is simple and virtually unburstable. What's not to like?
Some serial masturbator's wet dream cobbled together with photoshop does the brand no favours and only goes to show a hopeless dedication and rusted-on inability to accept change and dare I say it improvement!
Pete
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That's still too big and too heavy. It should be based on a "new" V7 790 or 820 small block motor.
Yep. Use the small block pumped to 850cc with the drone heads, single throttle body, dry sump and as light as possible. Target weight around 170kg dry and power around 75hp (should be achievable). Keep the pushrods and the ability to service on the side of the road with just an allen key and a shifter. Run it on 91 octane. Guzzi's attempts in the past like the NTX 750 were always measured by the Dakar results, which did not reflect the true abilities of these machines in my opinion. If they kept developing the format and sort out the glitches, they would have been epic bikes.
Moto Guzzi need to look again at the market for a middle (light) weight adventure shafty. With more power, modern electronics and better suspension, a small block would make a cracker of a desert tourer for 'round Australia / Africa or back-road touring. Bull dust and sandy trails will kill chains and sprockets rapidly, and there are plenty of great trails just like that in Australia. Up the West Australian coast through Lancelin, Jurien Bay and along the Zoigtdorp Cliffs to Steep Point in Shark Bay. Along the Gibb River Rd through the Kimberleys to the Bungle Bungles and many great water holes. Along the electrical access track to Cooktown and on to Bamaga on the Cape York Peninsula. I doubt many people would venture down these trails on a Stelvio, 1200GS or even the KTMs. You want something light and powerful, and with a rear weight bias to keep weight off the front wheel.
The ideal bike for me would fit neatly between the single cylinder bikes and the heavy twins, which has been an elusive formula for most manufacturers. They either get the light weight with no power, or good power but too heavy. I think MG are missing an opportunity with the V7 to make a niche in this space.
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Yep. Use the small block pumped to 850cc with the drone heads, single throttle body, dry sump and as light as possible. Target weight around 170kg dry and power around 75hp (should be achievable). Keep the pushrods and the ability to service on the side of the road with just an allen key and a shifter. Run it on 91 octane. Guzzi's attempts in the past like the NTX 750 were always measured by the Dakar results, which did not reflect the true abilities of these machines in my opinion. If they kept developing the format and sort out the glitches, they would have been epic bikes.
Moto Guzzi need to look again at the market for a middle (light) weight adventure shafty. With more power, modern electronics and better suspension, a small block would make a cracker of a desert tourer for 'round Australia / Africa or back-road touring. Bull dust and sandy trails will kill chains and sprockets rapidly, and there are plenty of great trails just like that in Australia. Up the West Australian coast through Lancelin, Jurien Bay and along the Zoigtdorp Cliffs to Steep Point in Shark Bay. Along the Gibb River Rd through the Kimberleys to the Bungle Bungles and many great water holes. Along the electrical access track to Cooktown and on to Bamaga on the Cape York Peninsula. I doubt many people would venture down these trails on a Stelvio, 1200GS or even the KTMs. You want something light and powerful, and with a rear weight bias to keep weight off the front wheel.
The ideal bike for me would fit neatly between the single cylinder bikes and the heavy twins, which has been an elusive formula for most manufacturers. They either get the light weight with no power, or good power but too heavy. I think MG are missing an opportunity with the V7 to make a niche in this space.
Excellent... I hope it comes true. Many of us have been waiting for this. I'd buy one tomorrow if it were available.
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Yep. Use the small block pumped to 850cc with the drone heads, single throttle body, dry sump and as light as possible. Target weight around 170kg dry and power around 75hp (should be achievable). Keep the pushrods and the ability to service on the side of the road with just an allen key and a shifter. Run it on 91 octane.
Moto Guzzi need to look again at the market for a middle (light) weight adventure shafty. With more power, modern electronics and better suspension, a small block would make a cracker of a desert tourer for 'round Australia / Africa or back-road touring.
The ideal bike for me would fit neatly between the single cylinder bikes and the heavy twins, which has been an elusive formula for most manufacturers. They either get the light weight with no power, or good power but too heavy. I think MG are missing an opportunity with the V7 to make a niche in this space.
So just completely re design the motor gearbox frame and final drive system, people seem to forget the humble XR600 air cooled lump that was traditionally used for this kind of thing was 150kgs for only an extra 20kgs you want an extra cylinder shaft drive fuel injection and ABS pump let me guess you also want the frame to be steel so you can weld it. Although they must stick with the antiquated cooling and valve actuation system you also want pretty big HP and it to run effectively on kerosene.
I should also point out these are the style of bikes people traditionally don't buy the BMWDakar 650 Yamaha 660 Tenre etc will all do what you describe with their modern single cylinders are not the vibrating paint shakers of old. If the market niche does exist Guzzi are deliberately ignoring because it would be a massive amount of design work to hit 2/3rds of what you have specified. Yet if they only hit 2/3rds of what you specified there would be a bunch of people saying I won't buy one because it hasn't got 5 more hp 5 less kgs its water cooled, fuel injected, overhead cam etc etc.
I think they are right to ignore it the cost vs reward is simply not there. How many of the V7 Eldo/Ambo fans have run down to their local dealer and thrown a deposit down on the new 1400 version that will be arriving shortly, I doubt you'd need to take of your shoes to count them.
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So just completely re design the motor gearbox frame and final drive system, people seem to forget the humble XR600 air cooled lump that was traditionally used for this kind of thing was 150kgs for only an extra 20kgs you want an extra cylinder shaft drive fuel injection and ABS pump let me guess you also want the frame to be steel so you can weld it. Although they must stick with the antiquated cooling and valve actuation system you also want pretty big HP and it to run effectively on kerosene.
I should also point out these are the style of bikes people traditionally don't buy the BMWDakar 650 Yamaha 660 Tenre etc will all do what you describe with their modern single cylinders are not the vibrating paint shakers of old. If the market niche does exist Guzzi are deliberately ignoring because it would be a massive amount of design work to hit 2/3rds of what you have specified. Yet if they only hit 2/3rds of what you specified there would be a bunch of people saying I won't buy one because it hasn't got 5 more hp 5 less kgs its water cooled, fuel injected, overhead cam etc etc.
I think they are right to ignore it the cost vs reward is simply not there. How many of the V7 Eldo/Ambo fans have run down to their local dealer and thrown a deposit down on the new 1400 version that will be arriving shortly, I doubt you'd need to take of your shoes to count them.
Lol, that may be a little over pessimistic even for Guzzi. Applying that sort of reasoning and we'd probably not have any of the new models introduced by Guzzi in recent years.
I dunno what's going to happen as far as new models. We are lucky to have what we have. But, I too would love to see and would buy a reduced-size Stelvio based on an upgraded small block engine.
During my recent lucky visit to the Guzzi factory and my meeting with the Production Manager for Guzzi, I specifically asked him 2 questions.
1. Will there be an upgraded version of the V7 small block that provides more power? Before I finished my question, he was shaking his head in affirmation. He said they were well aware of the shortcomings of the V7 engine and how it compared to other 750-800 engines on the market. He agreed that Guzzi needed to do something to upgrade the small block and smiled broadly as he said they were working on it.
2. I then told him that I and many others would love to see a baby Stelvio with that sort of motor. Again, he smiled and said that he agreed and personally wanted such a bike himself. He again said that "they" were considering such a bike and the engineers were working on it.
"All of these things are great and good ideas and we are working on them but such major moves take time."
So, who knows, he may have only been trying to placate me and move on. On the other hand, I was at least glad to see that these two topics were familiar to someone high in the Guzzi hierarchy and he didn't say "Aw, wow man, we never have even thought about that."
.
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The following article shows a Paris Dakah version weighing 162 kgs dry, and without the benefit of modern electronics or construction. Although it does have a titanium pipe.
http://www.guzzi.com.au/baja/index.shtml (http://www.guzzi.com.au/baja/index.shtml)
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The following article shows a Paris Dakah version weighing 162 kgs dry, and without the benefit of modern electronics or construction. Although it does have a titanium pipe.
http://www.guzzi.com.au/baja/index.shtml (http://www.guzzi.com.au/baja/index.shtml)
Never had any kind of emissions to actually meet and tended to tear the swing arm mounting points out of the rear of the gearbox.
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The NTX 650 actually weighted 182 kg wet (with 5kg of gasoline).
It's already a very low weight (almost incredibly low compared with others twin dirt bike) for a twin cylinder adventure bike, equipped with half fairing, 32l tank, rack, central stand and sump protection.
Is approximately the weight of a single cylinder XT660R, and less than a XT660Z Tenerè.
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Yep. Use the small block pumped to 850cc with the drone heads, single throttle body, dry sump and as light as possible. Target weight around 170kg dry and power around 75hp (should be achievable). Keep the pushrods and the ability to service on the side of the road with just an allen key and a shifter. Run it on 91 octane. Guzzi's attempts in the past like the NTX 750 were always measured by the Dakar results, which did not reflect the true abilities of these machines in my opinion. If they kept developing the format and sort out the glitches, they would have been epic bikes.
Moto Guzzi need to look again at the market for a middle (light) weight adventure shafty. With more power, modern electronics and better suspension, a small block would make a cracker of a desert tourer for 'round Australia / Africa or back-road touring. Bull dust and sandy trails will kill chains and sprockets rapidly, and there are plenty of great trails just like that in Australia. Up the West Australian coast through Lancelin, Jurien Bay and along the Zoigtdorp Cliffs to Steep Point in Shark Bay. Along the Gibb River Rd through the Kimberleys to the Bungle Bungles and many great water holes. Along the electrical access track to Cooktown and on to Bamaga on the Cape York Peninsula. I doubt many people would venture down these trails on a Stelvio, 1200GS or even the KTMs. You want something light and powerful, and with a rear weight bias to keep weight off the front wheel.
The ideal bike for me would fit neatly between the single cylinder bikes and the heavy twins, which has been an elusive formula for most manufacturers. They either get the light weight with no power, or good power but too heavy. I think MG are missing an opportunity with the V7 to make a niche in this space.
I always love this. How will it be achievable? Fairy dust? It ain't gunna happen with a small valved,Herron headed, air cooled motor.
Pete
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I always love this. How will it be achievable? Fairy dust? It ain't gunna happen with a small valved,Herron headed, air cooled motor.
Pete
Then we agree. I was thinking more like the heads off the drone engine developed for the US department of defence. They have the design already and with some R and D should be able to make it work for the road.
I think the original 4 valve 750s produced over 60hp in some variants, so its not such a leap to get 75hp from an 800-850 with fuel injection, ECU management and decent breathing. Cooling can be handled with an oil cooler. They just need to give it a try, but even if the power was just "as much as practicable" given air cooling constraints, then it could still be a terrific bike. And we could always apply some hotting up afterwards if they give us the right components to start with.
And regarding weight, I think the standard NTX 650s were around 165-170kg dry depending on the model (note the specs in one of the links), which lines up with around 180+kg fuelled and ready to go, which as stated is already amazingly light.
http://www.odd-bike.com/2014/04/moto-guzzi-v-twin-off-roaders.html (http://www.odd-bike.com/2014/04/moto-guzzi-v-twin-off-roaders.html)
http://www.motorbikes.be/en/Moto_Guzzi_NTX_650_1993.aspx (http://www.motorbikes.be/en/Moto_Guzzi_NTX_650_1993.aspx)
No fairy dust required.
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The
Pushrod
Engine
Big
Block
Is
No
More
Get
Over
It!!!
I'm betting there is a few thousand M/G owners that will disagree with that Pete......... ;D
Put me at the top of the list........
;-T
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I'm betting there is a few thousand M/G owners that will disagree with that Pete......... ;D
Put me at the top of the list........
;-T
They aren't making them any more. It's that simple. I never suggested that they won't be around for a long time. The old donk was a great motor but it was way past its use by date. Of the factory and brand was to survive it had to be replaced and it has.
I still have at least two pushrod big blocks and love 'em to bits but they aren't making them any more!
Pete
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Then we agree. I was thinking more like the heads off the drone engine developed for the US department of defence. They have the design already and with some R and D should be able to make it work for the road.
I think the original 4 valve 750s produced over 60hp in some variants, so its not such a leap to get 75hp from an 800-850 with fuel injection, ECU management and decent breathing. Cooling can be handled with an oil cooler. They just need to give it a try, but even if the power was just "as much as practicable" given air cooling constraints, then it could still be a terrific bike. And we could always apply some hotting up afterwards if they give us the right components to start with.
And regarding weight, I think the standard NTX 650s were around 165-170kg dry depending on the model (note the specs in one of the links), which lines up with around 180+kg fuelled and ready to go, which as stated is already amazingly light.
http://www.odd-bike.com/2014/04/moto-guzzi-v-twin-off-roaders.html (http://www.odd-bike.com/2014/04/moto-guzzi-v-twin-off-roaders.html)
http://www.motorbikes.be/en/Moto_Guzzi_NTX_650_1993.aspx (http://www.motorbikes.be/en/Moto_Guzzi_NTX_650_1993.aspx)
No fairy dust required.
I sincerely doubt that the drone motor will make significantly more power, certainly no more than a good Lario. We'll know soon enough when Chuck gets his up and running.
As for the 4V 750's? They were the most dreadful grenades imagineable! Really, I was working on them when they were new. They would sometimes shed their exhaust valve heads within the first hundred miles!
As for the idea that if we 'Are given the right pieces to start with' you can hot it up with aftermarket stuff? How pray tell? There are some very skilled people who have been hotting up smallblocks for years and none of them have ever got anywhere near 85HP! It's more of the Fairy Dust I'm afraid. Even in the extremely unlikely event that someone did manage to drag that much power out of a Smallblock I doubt whether it would be even remotely reliable and it would be an unrideable pig in the lower rev range.
For me if they simplyut the single TB motor with six speed in a decent, modern frame equipped with real suspension as a Mini Stelvio I'd be all over it like a rash. You certainly don't need 85HP to tour anywhere on dirt or tarmac. Whatever the current 750 produces would be fine by me.
Pete
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Dusty, I want what you and Vasco are smokin' :)
I suggested 75hp because it would make a dream bike. A push for sure, but doable. The standard bike makes 50.
And Pete I am still agreeing with you. I doubt very much that it could be done with the standard heads, or two piece valves that broke in the first few hundred kays, or with poor oil flow or whatever else ailed the old models. But with some good design it *could* be done. Think about it this way, do you think Honda could make 75hp out of an 800cc air/oil cooled twin?
So I guess your comments are more about what Moto Guzzi are capable of doing than how unrealistic my suggestions are. What I am suggesting is what I see is needed to make a niche bike. A platform to build on.
Perhaps the fairy dust is in peoples eyes blocking their vision...
http://archive.guzzitech.com/photos/Charlie1.jpg (http://archive.guzzitech.com/photos/Charlie1.jpg)
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Moto Guzzi need to look again at the market for a middle (light) weight adventure shafty. With more power, modern electronics and better suspension, a small block would make a cracker of a desert tourer for 'round Australia / Africa or back-road touring.
(http://jacksonracing.com.au/images/africa/wallshot.jpg)
Along the electrical access track to Cooktown and on to Bamaga on the Cape York Peninsula. I doubt many people would venture down these trails on a Stelvio, 1200GS or even the KTMs. You want something light and powerful, and with a rear weight bias to keep weight off the front wheel.
The ideal bike for me would fit neatly between the single cylinder bikes and the heavy twins, which has been an elusive formula for most manufacturers. They either get the light weight with no power, or good power but too heavy. I think MG are missing an opportunity with the V7 to make a niche in this space.
(http://jacksonracing.com.au/images/triupmhcape/cape-yorktriumph.jpg)
Those that do it, do it, million more pics of those saddlebags all over the world.
But fix the travel/weight problem with a drive box and I'll have one too, no need for any great power, light and no plastic sh#t to break much more important to me.
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Then we agree. I was thinking more like the heads off the drone engine developed for the US department of defence. They have the design already and with some R and D should be able to make it work for the road.
Given that the 940 engine (two valves, hemi heads, and high bore/stroke ratio) produce 71 hp at the rear wheel, a long stroke, two valves, hemi heads 850 engine with a similar architecture could produce 65 hp at the rear wheel at best.
I think the original 4 valve 750s produced over 60hp in some variants,
The 750 4V produced 59-60 hp at the rear wheel, with 30mm carburetors and the same exhaust of the 2v version (all too small for that power) an 850 version (bigger stroke and bigger valves) could probably produce 68-70 hp at the rear wheel.
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As for the 4V 750's? They were the most dreadful grenades imagineable!
Is not written on the stars that a 4V engine should break. There is plenty of reliable 4V engines out there.
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Is not written on the stars that a 4V engine should break. There is plenty of reliable 4V engines out there.
I had to deal with it. I can inky go from my experience. Perhaps someone found some effective Fairy Dust'?
Pete
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Perhaps someone found some effective Fairy Dust'?
Could be, or maybe a 4V engine with right sized pieces does not break.
DogW
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Oh for f*cks sakes! Next you'll be trying to convince me that you know how many angels can fit on the head of a pin!
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It´s interesting. At least here in Germany we are craving for more bikes with the Bellagio engine. Well, here seems to be another one: http://motosketches.blogspot.de/2014/11/moto-guzzi-xbr-940-varenna.html .
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It´s interesting. At least here in Germany we are craving for more bikes with the Bellagio engine. Well, here seems to be another one: http://motosketches.blogspot.de/2014/11/moto-guzzi-xbr-940-varenna.html .
Not bad.
With a pair of more road oriented tires, maybe it could be something to think of.
For the passenger grab handles, however, I would better see something more "V7 style " (simple chromed steel tubes).
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Given that the 940 engine (two valves, hemi heads, and high bore/stroke ratio) produce 71 hp at the rear wheel, a long stroke, two valves, hemi heads 850 engine with a similar architecture could produce 65 hp at the rear wheel at best.
The 750 4V produced 59-60 hp at the rear wheel, with 30mm carburetors and the same exhaust of the 2v version (all too small for that power) an 850 version (bigger stroke and bigger valves) could probably produce 68-70 hp at the rear wheel.
65 or 70hp at the rear wheel would be heaps. I was thinking claimed crankshaft horsepower to compare to the original 50 that they claim for the current 750.
And the drone engine I was referring to was a 4 valve head. Chuck In Indiana on this forum has started rebuilding (or should I say re-purposing) one of these engines.
http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=65696.0 (http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=65696.0)
This is the drone head from Chuck's thread:
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-012_zpsc2521d38.jpg)
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The drone engine (V75 Hi.e) has a two valve hemi head.
Chuck has a Lario, with the 4V head of the photo, too.
In the picture, standard V75 head vs V75 Hi.e head (note the bigger valves of the hemi head).
(http://www.labellehistoiremotoguzzi.info/dotclear/public/technique/aero/culasses600x279.jpg)
(http://www.labellehistoiremotoguzzi.info/dotclear/public/technique/aero/culasses600x260.jpg)
(http://www.labellehistoiremotoguzzi.info/dotclear/public/technique/aero/pistons300x160.jpg)
(http://www.labellehistoiremotoguzzi.info/dotclear/public/technique/aero/culasses_dessin300x435.jpg)
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Thanks Dogwalker for clarifying.
The heads on the drone still look pretty serious, and with a lot more fin area. The holes and galleries look to line up the same, so could be just a head/barrel/piston swap onto the original block. Are the bore and stroke the same?
Also, is the 4 valve head on the Lario a herron design or a hemi design?
Thanks.
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The heads on the drone still look pretty serious, and with a lot more fin area. The holes and galleries look to line up the same, so could be just a head/barrel/piston swap onto the original block.
Infact. Same block, different heads. Same bore and stroke.
Also, is the 4 valve head on the Lario a herron design or a hemi design?
It's a "roof" design. The most used for 4 valves heads.
(https://scontent-a-mxp.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/p180x540/10169167_378882798936799_4732345839435331419_n.jpg?oh=075f104a29398592e670b6fc235d674b&oe=5514556D)
(https://scontent-a-mxp.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/l/t1.0-9/q85/p180x540/10614244_378882815603464_5581073871276503271_n.jpg?oh=835444c742478b8fbac65fc670a11886&oe=5510060B)
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/v/t1.0-9/q82/p180x540/10645154_378882785603467_7365585859825218287_n.jpg?oh=7cace4e3b88ef40c8598108ca7b7d6bc&oe=55120711&__gda__=1428074112_b5e750c40ba95a69dfd71368f1716394)
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Interesting how this thread has taken a "more power from a small bloke" turn. You can tell gear heads rule here! ;-T
I like the concept of a small block Stelvio, although I would not be in the market for one. My location and riding is primarily on road with high speed freeway work mandatory for a goodly portion. Where I live, if you can't be cruising at 75 to 80 and get up to 95 pretty quick, Okie drivers are gonna make your life miserable! :BEER:
When my Stelvio NTX became a deer casualty, I started again making a list of what I wanted in a bike. Going through everything, engine, transmission, type of final drive, suspension, wheels/tires, ergos, wind protection, luggage options, and rider aids (everything from ABS to cruise control), coupled to a true assessment of how the bike will actually be used (are ya really gonna be Polar Bear smuggling), then what is important comes into focus.
Personally, my key points are ease of maintenance, power as described earlier, long travel suspension for our crappy roads, good fuel range, tubeless tires, upright standard riding position with good wind protection, and lockable luggage. Then there are many other points that I won't bring up here like parts availability, dealer/service support and dependability.
One last thing on the small block gearbox stuff. I would want a 6 speed with a lower first gear, then 2 through 5 giving about the same ratios as the old 2 through 4 (curve smoothed out of course) and top gear just a bit taller for a slightly more relaxed 80 MPH cruising. I have no idea why so many of these "all terrain adventure bikes" have a first gear so tall, you can't ride it at 5 to 10 MPH without slipping the clutch to prevent lugging the engine. Real world traffic jams and tractoring through nasty off road stuff requires this type of riding control.
If you haven't made a list of each motorcycle component and what is honestly important to you, try it. You might be surprised at what you come up with, that you have simple needs, want to dream about having a poser bike, are significantly compromising, or you need 4 or 5 bikes in the garage! ;D
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Interesting how this thread has taken a "more power from a small bloke" turn.
And so, a V7 ie 4V project (note the Husqvarna SM610 adjustment screws).
https://it-it.facebook.com/officinaMurriFactory
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.378882702270142.1073741826.142589812566100&type=1
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If you haven't made a list of each motorcycle component and what is honestly important to you, try it. You might be surprised at what you come up with, that you have simple needs, want to dream about having a poser bike, are significantly compromising, or you need 4 or 5 bikes in the garage! ;D
4 or 5 in the garage is usually the answer I get...
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Infact. Same block, different heads. Same bore and stroke.
It's a "roof" design. The most used for 4 valves heads.
Thanks again DW. Given what they have already with the 4 valve heads, it seems even more incredulous that they haven't updated the heads on the V7 already. The issues they have had in the past, in my limited understanding, are not insurmountable. I think they can source some decent valve gear and with better oil management in the head, there would be no reason not to update the engine to a four valve.
Also after a bit more research I have just realised that the Ducati Scrambler is exactly 75hp and 170kgs dry, and air cooled. It seems Ducati agreed with my some of the original design brief. This is a nice one, although not likely to be on my shopping list.
http://www.cycleworld.com/olgallery/132412/132438/21 (http://www.cycleworld.com/olgallery/132412/132438/21)
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Also after a bit more research I have just realised that the Ducati Scrambler is exactly 75hp and 170kgs dry, and air cooled.
Yes, but has on head camshaft with 88mm bore and 66mm stroke, so can rev way higher than a pushrods and rockers engine with 74mm stroke, and has bigger valves.
With only two valves (the "drone" engine), is not possible to have the same performances. With four, and a little more displacement (4v 850cc), it may be possible. With four valves and OHC (at least as in the "Falco" prototype), is possible to beat it.
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(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag65/guzzistajohn/lemans_zps93758f22.jpg) (http://s1299.photobucket.com/user/guzzistajohn/media/lemans_zps93758f22.jpg.html)
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BRING IT ON!!! ;-T
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Would outsell the Bellagio imho
Needs the 8v heads tho!
Me likey
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Hell to the yes!
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Me too. Just my opinion, (and that doesn't mean much) but it beats the pants off of anything I've seen out of Mandello in years. Makes a Griso look like a bastard cat!
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I could go for that real easily. ;-T
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Whose concept is it? Is it really a Moto Guzzi idea or a clever photoshop thingie?
In either case, I'd love to see Moto Guzzi produce it. I really think it would sell, and not just to curmudgeons ....
Lannis
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I think it looks really good, but the rider is going to need a concept butt to be comfortable on that thin seat.
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I swear... We really need an Oberdan Bezzi merged threadfest around here...
Bezzi's Photoshop fantasy art is just that: Fantasy.
None of his Guzzi Photoshop Abominations will ever make it off of the computer screen...
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I think it looks really good, but the rider is going to need a concept butt to be comfortable on that thin seat.
I think they are trying to capture the effect of the original LeMans seat. It was like a pine 2X8. I have one in the garage if anyone needs one.
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I swear... We really need an Oberdan Bezzi merged threadfest around here...
Bezzi's Photoshop fantasy art is just that: Fantasy.
None of his Guzzi Photoshop Abominations will ever make it off of the computer screen...
C'mon Mike , it is a perfect HIPSTER bike :D I do like this one , reminds me of the OP's CX 100 ;-T
Dusty
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I swear... We really need an Oberdan Bezzi merged threadfest around here...
Bezzi's Photoshop fantasy art is just that: Fantasy.
None of his Guzzi Photoshop Abominations will ever make it off of the computer screen...
Abomination or not, I think it captures the look of the good old LeMans, I like it. it's freezing ass cold out and this is NOT a political thread ;D party on you old pfarts!
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Yowza!!
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Lean, Purposeful, Authentic...
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C'mon Mike , it is a perfect HIPSTER bike :D I do like this one , reminds me of the OP's CX 100 ;-T
Dusty
Hey peckerhead! you callin' me a hipster? You're liable to get a suprise in your electric blanky in CV!
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You have to be young to want a bike like that, us old geezers not only don't have a concept butt, but don't do well in the monkey f---n a football riding position.
It's too difficult to bend the neck up to see where you are going. But it is a pretty bike.
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Hey peckerhead! you callin' me a hipster? You're liable to get a suprise in your electric blanky in CV!
Mikey came clean on another thread and admitted to being a "rockin hillbilly hipster" ;D Oh , no chance anyone would mistake YOU for a hipster :D
Dusty
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Mikey came clean on another thread and admitted to being a "rockin hillbilly hipster" ;D Oh , no chance anyone would mistake YOU for a hipster :D
Dusty
If being a hipster is not being a fan of over priced froo-froo beers and diggin' on good old rock-a-billy music like Wanda Jackson, and Carl Perkins, then I'm a "Rockin' Hillbilly Hipster" too ;-T And damn proud of it!
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Whose concept is it? Is it really a Moto Guzzi idea or a clever photoshop thingie?
In either case, I'd love to see Moto Guzzi produce it. I really think it would sell, and not just to curmudgeons ....
Lannis
This looks like a random fan photoshop to me but it's a dang cool one
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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LOVE IT, now for the negative; smaller displacement? ;-T
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This looks like a random fan photoshop to me but it's a dang cool one
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
It's an artist with an interest in Moto Guzzi, not sure what his motivation is. But I like most of the designs he comes up with. <SHRUG>
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag65/guzzistajohn/lemans_zps62e75793.jpg) (http://s1299.photobucket.com/user/guzzistajohn/media/lemans_zps62e75793.jpg.html)
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If being a hipster is not being a fan of over priced froo-froo beers and diggin' on good old rock-a-billy music like Wanda Jackson, and Carl Perkins, then I'm a "Rockin' Hillbilly Hipster" too ;-T And damn proud of it!
One thing that baffles me , with all of the closet hipsters here , why all of the hipster bashing :D
Dusty
< Hipster >
<shrug>
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Whatever happened to curves and smooth lines? It's all elbows and knees.
Nick
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I like the concept, but this photoshop rendering sucks. here are some actual guzzi's.
(http://motorcyclephotooftheday.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/002zki.jpg)
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Q_JFaFRBe8M/VK70u9LUdXI/AAAAAAAB3jg/Fp_w7jma5SA/s1600/bellagio%2Bcafe%2Bracer-007.jpg)
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One thing that baffles me , with all of the closet hipsters here , why all of the hipster bashing :D
Dusty
< Hipster >
<shrug>
Is being a "hipster" a bad thing? I have yet to see a true definition of what that is. Is it having a beard and wearing flannel as a fashion statement? As long as they don't force me to hug them, we'll get along just fine.
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I like the concept, but this photoshop rendering sucks. here are some actual guzzi's.
(http://motorcyclephotooftheday.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/002zki.jpg)
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Q_JFaFRBe8M/VK70u9LUdXI/AAAAAAAB3jg/Fp_w7jma5SA/s1600/bellagio%2Bcafe%2Bracer-007.jpg)
Pretty hip dude! I'm smellin' what your steppin' in.
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The Oberdan design is too angular for my tastes. Also and I know I'm nitpicking here, but the motor looks like it needs to be canted 5 degrees forward ;D
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Don't want to be the downer in the group but ................ that's a Griso :-\
Ciao
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Hey John,
That, fantasy or not, looks like a modern version of the CX. It pushes my buttons!!!
Think they would make it with carbs?
Mike :-)
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Looks pretty cool. Needs dual exhaust though.
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It looks kinda squished -- as if the bodywork both above and below the belt line is too narrow (particularly the side covers). As noted, it needs the 8V engine. I would also like to see dual exhausts with an under-engine crossover, rather than the Griso-like exhaust in this concept.
Message to Mandello: Build it!
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Not bad...but it needs Alloy 5-spoke wheels such as Magni's EPMs in order to be considered a worthy contender as a Tribute Bike to the early Le Mans bloodline.
BTW, I still much prefer the design lines of my CX100 over those featured in this rendering
-
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(Sigh!) The 2V big block is dead. Let it go. Good greif! Why do so many people want to keep looking backwards???
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You have to be young to want a bike like that, us old geezers not only don't have a concept butt, but don't do well in the monkey f---n a football riding position.
It's too difficult to bend the neck up to see where you are going. But it is a pretty bike.
you must be a lot older and geezier than me, I have a airhawk cushion and could ride it all day..
Don't want to be the downer in the group but ................ that's a Griso :-\
Ciao
accept for the different frame and motor.
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Don't want to be the downer in the group but ................ that's a Griso :-\
Ciao
What's a Griso?
They're all specials based on the Bellagio.
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I like the concept, but this photoshop rendering sucks.
:+1
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Q_JFaFRBe8M/VK70u9LUdXI/AAAAAAAB3jg/Fp_w7jma5SA/s1600/bellagio%2Bcafe%2Bracer-007.jpg)
:+1
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If you were talented like Chuck, you fab up the parts to make an 8V Griso to look like that. Maybe Chuck needs to start a custom bike shop, hire a couple of apprentices to learn his talents.
Dean
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Good Idea!
(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/2/Open/Disney/Never%20Cry%20Wolf/_derived_jpg_q90_600x800_m0/ncw11g.jpg?partner=allmovie_soap)
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(Sigh!) The 2V big block is dead. Let it go. Good greif! Why do so many people want to keep looking backwards???
[/b]
Because something might be gaining on you!
No, I like the two valve engines 'cause the big exhaust valves make beautiful sounds, much more mellow that the smaller ones found in the four valve heads. Its the same with the airhead beemers, no contest!
I find I just need about 55 to 65 HP to get my pulse up on the public roads and with the right package that will be enough to stay pretty close to anything out there.
Old bones heal slowly, and sometimes less is better.
mike :-)
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I agree with dropping the faring line down to match the bottom of the tank line. I will add straighten out the exhaust and arch the front fender to match the tire and I could go either way on the rear fender. Super cool I would love to see the factory build a very close production bike with 8V heads and optional ABS/trac control.
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Good Idea!
(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/2/Open/Disney/Never%20Cry%20Wolf/_derived_jpg_q90_600x800_m0/ncw11g.jpg?partner=allmovie_soap)
Dusty CV..2025!
:-)
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I swear... We really need an Oberdan Bezzi merged threadfest around here...
Bezzi's Photoshop fantasy art is just that: Fantasy.
None of his Guzzi Photoshop Abominations will ever make it off of the computer screen...
All bikes in the last ~30 years started on a computer screen
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[/b]
Because something might be gaining on you!
No, I like the two valve engines 'cause the big exhaust valves make beautiful sounds, much more mellow that the smaller ones found in the four valve heads. Its the same with the airhead beemers, no contest!
I find I just need about 55 to 65 HP to get my pulse up on the public roads and with the right package that will be enough to stay pretty close to anything out there.
Old bones heal slowly, and sometimes less is bett
er.
mike :-)
Yep , , in fact 40 HP in a 400 lb package with a 165 lb rider can keep up ;D I also like that "2" valve sound , although 4 valve Ducs and the RC 51 made some nice noises .
Dusty
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Yeah, Allot of clanking ticking and rattling, thankful for ear plugs that filter most of that, but my S2R sounds better? too me at least that its 4 valve brothers.
:-)
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Yeah, Allot of clanking ticking and rattling, thankful for ear plugs that filter most of that, but my S2R sounds better? too me at least that its 4 valve brothers.
:-)
Sorry about all of that tinking and rattling , both the bike and a certain Okie have lots of wear and tear :D
Dusty
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I like it. Very much. I'd miss dual mufflers and Corbin could fix the seat.
Maybe incorporate the "wings" from the LM III & IV under the fairing and raise the screen a bit, but that's about it.
Amazing what a paint scheme can do.
Tobit ;-T
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If you were talented like Chuck, you fab up the parts to make an 8V Griso to look like that. Maybe Chuck needs to start a custom bike shop, hire a couple of apprentices to learn his talents.
Dean
No. Not really. The Griso's frame would be in the way.
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All bikes in the last ~30 years started on a computer screen
But none of them started on Oberdan Bezzi's computer screen!
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Rocker - get off your high horse. It's better to get ideas to discuss than wave our metaphorical internet hands around trying to discuss stuff. And I don't consider this an abomination.
\off soapbox mode
It's good he's using the front of the V7 Sport/Le Mans tank in his design. Yes, and I'd like to see the 8V engine used (for the higher HP) Maybe (here's the waving of the metaphorical hands) they could start with Griso 8V and extend the ears below the tank into the fairing like this one.
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Rocker - get off your high horse.
Apologies, but I don't think I will.
I have just grown weary of people posting these images as though they were factory concepts when all they actually are is a figment of a fan boy's imagination.
Most of his renderings are not really very good. He cuts and pastes parts of existing motorcycles from different brands together to form is 'art'.
The worst offenders are magazines and websites who put these images forward as factory prototypes and factory concepts.
I just get tired of it.
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I would like to interject my opinion here,-------all these big words ---FORGETwhat it was?????
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I would like to interject my opinion here,-------all these big words ---FORGETwhat it was?????
:D :D :D :D :D
Wait ,isn't your beemer really just an artist's rendering ? :D
Dusty
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nicer than the BMW RnineT
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nicer than the BMW RnineT
Indeed. Renderings and concepts rarely trigger any real emotion in me but I can just imagine how that bike would look under the lights in my garage, in all it's red and blackness as I slipped into my jacket, Arai and thumbed the door opener.
Tobit
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Apologies, but I don't think I will.
I have just grown weary of people posting these images as though they were factory concepts when all they actually are is a figment of a fan boy's imagination.
Most of his renderings are not really very good. He cuts and pastes parts of existing motorcycles from different brands together to form is 'art'.
The worst offenders are magazines and websites who put these images forward as factory prototypes and factory concepts.
I just get tired of it.
Don't hold back on us. Tell us what you really think.
:pop
I hate it when you sugar coat it.
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Don't hold back on us. Tell us what you really think.
:pop
I hate it when you sugar coat it.
You should've heard me in my operations team meeting this morning. :wife:
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Very nice in deed!
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You should've heard me in my operations team meeting this morning. :wife:
probably like the EEO complaint meeting I had with the Deputy Director.
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Don't hold back on us. Tell us what you really think.
:pop
I hate it when you sugar coat it.
Mikey was attempting to be PC :o ;D
Dusty
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Mikey was attempting to be PC :o ;D
Dusty
a true diplomat
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Works for me. ;-T Or you could take a Girso, paint it like a LeMans, ad a fairing and clip ons and think that would look pretty cool to.
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I like concepts and renderings and I can really appreciate a well done pencil sketch. These Bezzi things are cut and paste crappola. the worst was the Guzzi sportbike he pasted up with the CBR 900 frame and triumph Daytona 675 bodywork. Sorry, can't get exited about crap, especially when you see some really cool projects right here on this sight.
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I like it for what it is: an image.
It could be the basis for a handsome machine.
Rich A
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Besides being just a cut and paste fantasy, I think it's ugly and uninspiring.
Only the color scheme says LeMans to me. And it looks bad on that.
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Hey John,
That, fantasy or not, looks like a modern version of the CX. It pushes my buttons!!!
Think they would make it with carbs?
Mike :-)
A small valve 949cc CX @ 4,500 rpm with stock pipes sound ricocheting off the canyon walls sounds AWESOME !!! ;-T Looks pretty serious too. 8)
My `87 LM IV w/GiaCa Moto mufflers sounded BAD ASS too to the point even tho most the faster bikes I was around to & from Laguna were afraid to find out just how fast it was. 8) Figured it was an unknown to them. ;D
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No, I like the two valve engines 'cause the big exhaust valves make beautiful sounds, much more mellow that the smaller ones found in the four valve heads.
Although I like the sound of the 4 valve engines, I prefer the sound of the 2 valve engines, too. Wait until you hear the Aero engine.. it's bad. ;D
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Looks great to me.
Needs performance to match the looks.
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I'd look good on something like that.. ;D
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You should've heard me in my operations team meeting this morning. :wife:
Glad I could post something to help you release your frustrations, Mike. Let it all hang out dude. Then build a bridge and get over it! ;D Have a nice day!
Hey, I asked what everyone thought<shrug>
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Works for me. ;-T Or you could take a Girso, paint it like a LeMans, ad a fairing and clip ons and think that would look pretty cool to.
You really need to start with the Bellagio to get that frame and maybe that's the rub- you can't get the 8v engine in the Bellagio frame?
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So if this was a "custom" bike that someone turned out, I'd think it's prtetty cool. However, as a production bike, I'd support Pete and Mike that this is nothing new. The Ipothesis is an interesting, more forward looking design evolution of the Griso (and it actually works).
The brand needs to move forward- not just ape old designs. The V7 range can comfortably stay retro. If it's going to be a sport(ish) bike, they need to lead design- not copy. The Griso is a perfect example of a look and concept that was unlike anything out there when it was rolled out- and that individuality is at the heart of its street cred.
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You really need to start with the Bellagio to get that frame and maybe that's the rub- you can't get the 8v engine in the Bellagio frame?
That's a shame, make a great retro style bike.
Dean
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So if this was a "custom" bike that someone turned out, I'd think it's prtetty cool. However, as a production bike, I'd support Pete and Mike that this is nothing new. The Ipothesis is an interesting, more forward looking design evolution of the Griso (and it actually works).
The brand needs to move forward- not just ape old designs. The V7 range can comfortably stay retro. If it's going to be a sport(ish) bike, they need to lead design- not copy. The Griso is a perfect example of a look and concept that was unlike anything out there when it was rolled out- and that individuality is at the heart of its street cred.
I'm sorry, but move on to what? What's wrong with "old" designs, it works in airplanes, couple of wings a motor , a tail....
This is a figment of someone's imagination for sure but based on a proven configuration that has shown to be a success. (it's the look) Its a simple expression of a single track machine without allot of marketing gizmo's.
Lets face it double overhead cams and four valve heads are for bragging rights, not much use on the public roads.
Yeah Guzzi will never produce it, but every time I ride my CX I have to think that it would be nice to have something brand new that was pretty much the same with modern suspension and simple electronics. No substitute for CI and the big block has grunt in spades right where I can use it. I can do mods to fit my physical condition.
No matter how hard I ride my VFR on the street, which has near 100 Hp at the rear wheel, do I use even half that?
To me "moving on" smacks of reinventing the wheel and although it would not be a big seller if produced the thought makes me smile.:-)
For those that have to have state of the art sport bike that would put goose (no pun) bumps on the likes of V Rossi, they are on the market right now a monthly payment away.
I need to go back to work as I am rambling again.
mike :-)
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I'm with you Mike.
I really like the retro customs based on the Bellagio chassis. That chassis is a nice blend of old and new, Tonti and CARC.
I'm also a fan of short stroke Italian twins, so would love that bike with the modern 4v heads and either 940cc (850 crank/1200 top end) or 1100cc (850 crank/1400 top end).
Oh, to have money to burn on hotrod projects... ~;
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I'm also a fan of short stroke Italian twins, so would love that bike with the modern 4v heads and either 940cc (850 crank/1200 top end) or 1100cc (850 crank/1400 top end).
That 1400 top end would make a serious Jane Russell homage.
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Came up on twitter a few days ago and thought ok, 8/10.
Can't live in the past...
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I reckon it would look better with twin pies as well.
But this curmudgeon likes it!
Cheers Guzzler.
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A friend rides a Griso. We swapped out. He wants my engine characteristics.(V11 Café Sport this time)
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Lets face it double overhead cams and four valve heads are for bragging rights, not much use on the public roads.
I'm going to disagree with that.
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I'm going to disagree with that.
I second that!
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Lets face it double overhead cams and four valve heads are for bragging rights, not much use on the public roads.
For those of you who disagree with the above ^^^^^^ ..... you have to combine it with this below vvvvvv
No matter how hard I ride my VFR on the street, which has near 100 Hp at the rear wheel, do I use even half that?
He's right about that, for MOST riders. A SOHC motor (or even a pushrod motor) with two valves per head will produce more horsepower than most riders either can or will use on the street ....
Lannis
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I disagree that DOHC cams (which takes this out of the guzzi realm since no guzzi has ever had that) and 4 valves per cylinder are for "bragging rights and not much use on public roads") That statement is far too generalized.
DOHC engines have the potential to make an engine more efficient and therefore more powerful .
What kind of power you need or want on a road vehicle is subjective. I know where my "Goldilocks Zone" for HP is.
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http://www.autoevolution.com/news/moto-guzzi-ginza-anticipated-by-oberdan-bezzi-shows-some-evil-muscle-92757.html#
Whoa! That looks serious! :o
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/moto-guzzi-ginza-anticipated-by-oberdan-bezzi-shows-some-evil-muscle-92757_1_zpsa2fqaenp.jpg)
What do you think of it?
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Updated Centauro swoop with a 1400 engine. I like it.
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Wishful thinking? I know it is a photo shopped drawing but I wonder if some of the details are technically possible as shown .... like the shift linkage. It just looks too simple (elegant?) to be really possible. ( I am thinking of my own V7 Classic's shift linkage complexity)
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I know that piece of tubular frame (stelvio?) probably won't make it into production. :beat_horse
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Looks cool, don't think the 1400s lines will change that dramatically in the upcoming years.
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I like the mid mounts.
Give me a round headlight and tour pack. ;-T
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I like the mid mounts.
Give me a round headlight and tour pack. ;-T
That thing has your name written all over it John :D
Dusty
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This is in no way a Guzzi drawing or a real Guzzi concept
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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This is in no way a Guzzi drawing or a real Guzzi concept
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Our rocker59's going to have a conniption fit over THIS one .... !
Lannis
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Take a handful of Yamaha V-Max, chuck in a grab-bag of any old shite from a variety of bikes, some of which might be Guzzis, overlay the whole lot over the least modern chassis and frame that Guzzi make and throw the 1400 motor at it.
Put the idea up on a website, top it off with an ugly headlight and wait for people to be amazed.
Obviously my capacity for amazement is lacking. It's just another photoshop turd that's been rolled in glitter.
Pete
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You have a way with words Pete........... ;D
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You probably won't like this one either: Stornello 850
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_JBCSy1oyahI/RfaIDdRlHnI/AAAAAAAAACQ/IsO_KnWFTDU/s1600/MOTO%2BGUZZI%2BSTORNELLO%2B850.jpg)
He doesn't work for Guzzi: http://thekneeslider.com/motorcycle-designs-from-oberdan-bezzi/
From the net: "Mr Bezzi is a good illustrator but he is a bad designer!"
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I like it!
Face it friends. The fantasy is often better than the final product that ends up on the showroom floor.
Now if you got the money, time, and talent, I am sure anyone could build a nice working prototype that everyone will, ehem, appreciate...
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/moto_guzzi_mgx-21_2_zpsdvrzrkkl.jpg) :D
However, if you only had a little time and talent .....
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/guzzi%20bsa_zpspkct0ep3.jpg)
:pop
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Our rocker59's going to have a conniption fit over THIS one .... !
Lannis
Yep.
(http://d26ya5yqg8yyvs.cloudfront.net/kboom.gif)
I swear, sometime when I have time, all of these Oberdan Bezzi posts are going to get dumped into a merged threadfest...
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Griso is a hard act to follow but this one could pull it off!
'Geezer
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Griso is a hard act to follow but this one could pull it off!
'Geezer
Let's put aside for a moment that this is a fantasy image from a Photoshop Hack.
Then, tell me how a California 1400 based special can be compared to a Griso? In any way... Other than the fact that they're both Guzzis...
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Yep.
(http://d26ya5yqg8yyvs.cloudfront.net/kboom.gif)
I swear, sometime when I have time, all of these Oberdan Bezzi posts are going to get dumped into a merged threadfest...
OK. I'm making time...
:+=copcar
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Well, we have heard that the Griso concept is due for an update. Not sayin' this is it, but it wouldn't surprise me to see the 1400 motor used in a power cruiser format with the standard or slightly rear set pegs and forward lean ergos.
Of course a street version would have real mudguards and then a method to fit side cases... Could it be?
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Well, we have heard that the Griso concept is due for an update. Not sayin' this is it, but it wouldn't surprise me to see the 1400 motor used in a power cruiser format with the standard or slightly rear set pegs and forward lean ergos.
Of course a street version would have real mudguards and then a method to fit side cases... Could it be?
So, you think that they'll kill the current Griso platform, not replace it, and use the "GRiSO" name on a California variant?
I'm not following you. There is about 200 lbs difference between a California and a Griso, plus couple dozen others...
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Don't really know enough about the Cali 1400 frame, but would suspect it is heavily overbuilt, along with the suspension.
So a more sporting frame (lighter weight) and suspension (USD forks and single shock swing arm) built around the 1400 engine and drive train could get the weight closer to the power cruiser competition. Those bikes aren't exactly know for being light, the Ducati being the exception, kinda. ;)
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The article said something about the name Ginza been the next Guzzi's models actual name.
Thats a good name progression from Grizo to Ginza.
And a good nickname would be Gina and have a "L" model so I could call it Gina Lollobrigida! :-*
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/gina_lollobrigida__zps04ygpvlm.jpg)
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The article said something about the name Ginza been the next Guzzi's models actual name.
Yeah. The name sounds like a great idea. :-\
Ginza: a district in Tokyo, Japan, famous for its department stores, nightclubs, and bars.
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Named after a Sushi restaurant in Tucson ~; Except for the V-Max snorkel pretty cool looking concept and the fact the pegs aren't forward is a plus for me.YMMV
Paul B :BEER:
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A new Gina Lollabrigida would be very nice ;-T
Dusty
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Rocker,
Thanks for merging these. They are a waste of time.
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Let's put aside for a moment that this is a fantasy image from a Photoshop Hack.
Then, tell me how a California 1400 based special can be compared to a Griso? In any way... Other than the fact that they're both Guzzis...
Exactly. How something with a grossly overweight, obsolete, twin cradle frame with questionable rigidity, zero suspension subtlety could be thought of as even remotely 'Griso Like' is beyond me???
The Griso is no lightweight but it at least it attempts to be a quasi-*modern* motorbike even with its supertanker wheelbase. At least it has a rigid frame and decent suspension, even if it does need work to get the best from it!
Don't get me wrong, for its market segment which is generally undemanding in terms of handling and is very demanding in terms of bling and farkles the Cali 14 is an excellent machine, remember, I've owned and ridden one long distance, but a Griso it definitely ain't!
Even if this latest limp biscuit of a 'Design' did have any basis in reality it would still be an ugly, retrograde step that wouldn't fit any particular market segment in terms of purchasers and wouldn't have the performance to build a niche for itself. The wretched thing is fifty shades of ghastly no matter which way you look at it!
Pete
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For me, the C-clamp riding position kills it. No way would I want to spend any time in that saddle.
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So, you guys feel strongly the 1400 motor won't be the basis for a power cruiser Griso replacement.
Is it just the weight of the motor or the low revs? Is the motor block not capable of being a "highly stressed" member to get rigidity and lower weight?
Would seem a shame MG developed the motor for such a limited line. Could it be reconfigured with a bit bigger bore and shorter stroke for a higher reving, sportier power plant?
The Griso is getting a bit long in the tooth.
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There are very few differences between the 1200 and 1400 motors. The most obvious are the twin plugging to cope with the very wide bore and the fact that the cylinder heads on the 1400 use much, much larger cast in oil galleries for cooling around the exhaust valves than the simple drillings around the seats used in the earlier engines. Although the castings look externally near identical they are in fact quite different. The added height of the 1400 motor though comes principally from the rocker cover 'Covers' which are a cosmetic affectation.
The only other real 'Mechanical' difference is in the sump which is now castas a single piece with an internal plumbing casting to hold the OPRV and assorted other hocus-pocus that was previously hung off a separate spacer sandwiched between the sump and block. This sump is now being used on the 1200's as well, it eliminates a leak point and I would imagine cuts down both on production costs and assembly time.
Really apart from the cosmetic bits there is little in the 1400 motor to make it heavier than the 1200 so stating weight as an issue visa vis the motive unit is a bit of a red herring. There might be an extra kg or so in the extra alloy in the cam/rocker box casting and the gearbox has a cush drive in it once more, (Hooray!) but other than this?
As for vibration? The 1400 is silky smooth except at idle and I tend to think it's desire to shake about like a cheap sex aid when idling has more to do with the spark controlled idle and very large throttlebody and plenum chamber in the inlet tract. If the same engine was fed by twin TB's and stepper controlled I don't think it would vibrate appreciably more than a well set up 1200, maybe less due to the twin plugs.
Pete
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"L" model so I could call it Gina Lollobrigida!
:drool pant pant.. you *didn't* have to bring that up..
;D
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How about this with a round headlight and quarter fairing or maybe a 1400 Scrambler version? (Hip!)
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/B-ULV6AIEAAeGvP.jpg%20large_zpsjitzzc45.jpg)
;) Still needs footpegs!
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At least that is a real bike.
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So, you guys feel strongly the 1400 motor won't be the basis for a power cruiser Griso replacement.
Is it just the weight of the motor or the low revs? Is the motor block not capable of being a "highly stressed" member to get rigidity and lower weight?
Would seem a shame MG developed the motor for such a limited line. Could it be reconfigured with a bit bigger bore and shorter stroke for a higher reving, sportier power plant?
The Griso is getting a bit long in the tooth.
It's not about the engine, because as Pete noted the 1200 and 1400 are basically the same engine.
I feel strongly that any Griso replacement will not be based on the porky California 1400 chassis.
Surely any nuovo Griso will be shorter, lighter, and better handling, and carry more fuel than the current Griso.
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^^^ Surely?
As a function of wishful thinking, yes.
As a function of Moto Guzzi listening to its customers... not so much.
Shirley, you jest.
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So, YCRN, what do you see in YOUR crystal ball ?
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^^^ Water-cooled heads on an 8V engine, 150-ish hp, retro LeMans styling, top-shelf components, sporty ergos and geometry (not too extreme), no mpore than 445 lbs wet weight, optional touring and racing accessories.... two models: Standard, with Marzocchi fork and Sachs shock; and R-spec, with Ohlins suspension.
Hey, a guy can dream!
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:D
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^^^ Water-cooled heads on an 8V engine, 150-ish hp, retro LeMans styling, top-shelf components, sporty ergos and geometry (not too extreme), no mpore than 445 lbs wet weight, optional touring and racing accessories.... two models: Standard, with Marzocchi fork and Sachs shock; and R-spec, with Ohlins suspension.
Hey, a guy can dream!
Why in the name of all that's holy would you wish crappy Marzocchi forks on *Anything*? Especially anything with *Sporting* pretensions.......
Pete
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Why in the name of all that's holy would you wish crappy Marzocchi forks on *Anything*? Especially anything with *Sporting* pretensions.......
Pete
A fair point, although I think Marz can make as good a suspension as you're willing to pay them to make.
Would you prefer Showa or KYB? Same principle applies. WP? Probably too expensive for the "basic" bike. What does Aprilia use on its non-R models?
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How about this with a round headlight and quarter fairing or maybe a 1400 Scrambler version? (Hip!)
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/B-ULV6AIEAAeGvP.jpg%20large_zpsjitzzc45.jpg)
;) Still needs rearset footpegs!
FTFY
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I feel strongly that any Griso replacement will not be based on the porky California 1400 chassis.
Surely any nuovo Griso will be shorter, lighter, and better handling, and carry more fuel than the current Griso.
This is where we agree completely. That's why I feel there's a chance they could use a new lighter/smaller frame with the engine stressed, more compact single shock swing arm, steeper steering angle... And proper sized tires for better handling!
Don't know if we would ever see a sub 500 lbs model again though, not with all the mandated ABS and market required electronic controls.
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Just came across this:
http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/bikes/moto-guzzi-x-rally-1200-concept-oberdan-bezzi/#more-83751 (http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/bikes/moto-guzzi-x-rally-1200-concept-oberdan-bezzi/#more-83751)
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Go ahead Rocker :pop
Dusty
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Go ahead Rocker :pop
Dusty
I swear. I don't get the popularity of the Oberdan Bezzi Photoshop stuff.
It's mostly pure crap, and it gets published all over the web as "concept" and "prototype" like it's something more than just doodles on a napkin by some drunken over enthusiastic fan boy.
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I welcome Oberdan Bezzi's contribution, and that any other conceptual artists who want to spend their time daydreaming on paper about future Moto Guzzi products, just as I welcome all of the "hipsters" who are busy creating custom bikes from Guzzi components -- much to the derision of some on this forum.
These are Guzzisti! They are your brothers -- embrace them. (At the least, stop mocking them.)
Face facts: Nobody buys a Moto Guzzi for basic transportation. People buy the bikes because they are perceived as something interesting, something special, something exciting to own. The worst thing that can happen to such a vehicle brand is for it to become irrelevant. In the motorcycling world, but for people like Bezzi, Moto Guzzi is pretty close to becoming irrelevant. It has minuscule sales. It does not have a stable, reliable, or convenient dealer network. It has no racing presence. Its bikes are rarely included in magazine "shootout" articles, and when they are reviewed, the press is rarely favorable. The bikes are based on outdated engine architecture. A large number of their bikes leave the factory with serious teething problems. The marque is constantly at the precipice of extinction. Piaggio Group has a history of buying and then shutting down historic Italian motorcycle marques: Gilera, Benelli, Laverda -- Moto Guzzi could easily be next.
Personally, I "like" and share as much good press for Moto Guzzi as I reasonably can. If I have a positive comment, I will make it; negative comments I try to keep to myself. I can usually find something to like about most Moto Guzzi-based customs. (Okay, that "Pasta Hog" monstrosity that was on eBay a few years ago is the exception, but, c'mon....) Not all of Bezzi's designs are my cup of tea; he's had some winners and some misses, but overall, I think his work should be encouraged.
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My gripe is that all too often this enthusiast's daydreams on paper are posted and published as factory concepts and prototypes.
They are not, and never will be.
Sure, having some buzz about Guzzi is fun and interesting, but the way Bezzi's daydreams on paper are presented is actually more of a distraction than anything else. His drawings are circulated and printed way out of proportion to his influence on the brand, his influence being right about zero.
Now, if the magazines were publishing sketches from someone like Marabese or Galluzzi, that would be noteworthy since their designs have come to life as real-deal Moto Guzzi...
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As long as we agree it's all photoshop, I think the better discussion is who would win in a fight -- batman or green hornet?
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^^^ It seems to me that your complaint is more with lazy journalists and bloggers than Mr. Bezzi. Noted. However, I don't think that distracts from my point. What is it that they say about publicity? That all publicity is good publicity?
Moto Guzzi went through a dry spell in the late '80's- early '90's where NOBODY was talking about the brand. Frankly, I find it remarkable that large, multinational corporations such as Aprilia and Piaggio were willing to spend millions of lira to keep the marque afloat. Maybe the current media interest in Moto Guzzi will translate to some good fortune for the brand; maybe not... but it can't hurt.
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But do thesse guys have any influence on factory designers? I think probably yes, so long as consumers show an interest.
The customizers do choppers, cafe' bikes, scramblers... then the factories start to come out with the Honda Fury, the Triumph Thruxton, the Ducati Scrambler...
Whatever catches the eye of the buying public will become the product of those wanting to sell to them.
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But do thesse guys have any influence on factory designers? I think probably yes, so long as consumers show an interest.
The customizers do choppers, cafe' bikes, scramblers... then the factories start to come out with the Honda Fury, the Triumph Thruxton, the Ducati Scrambler...
Whatever catches the eye of the buying public will become the product of those wanting to sell to them.
What is Bezzi selling to the public?
It's not trend setting custom motorcycles that are making the show circuits and magazine centerfolds...
What is it?
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^^^ Ideas. He's selling ideas. More power to him, I say.
Moto Guzzi's bolt-on kits to "customize" the V7 is a good example of what biking sailor is talking about.
http://www.garagemotoguzzi.com/en/
The web site makes it clear that Piaggio saw what customizers and sketch artists were doing to the V7, and saw an opportunity to make these styles accessible to a wider audience while making a few extra lira at the same time.
It all starts with an idea -- then a rendering -- then working in metal. None of these guys is simply taking a hammer to a motorcycle.
http://www.garagemotoguzzi.com/en/story-scrambler/
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bump... :thewife:
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Good grief Mike , how did you remember this thread ? Funny , some of the posters on this have left , and about that many again have changed their screen names . Can you guess who
Biking Sailor is now ? :laugh:
Dusty
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Good grief Mike , how did you remember this thread ?
Dusty
It's why I'm paid the big bucks... :copcar:
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It's why I'm paid the big bucks... :copcar:
Are we getting a raise this year ? :laugh:
Dusty
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many again have changed their screen names . Can you guess who
Biking Sailor is now ? :laugh:
Dusty
So.......... :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Don't hold us in suspenders.
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"Obviously my capacity for amazement is lacking. It's just another photoshop turd that's been rolled in glitter."
Who alone among us could have written that?
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I'm normally not a function-follows-form guy, but what's with the droopy headlights on standard bikes? The newer R1200R is probably BMW's best naked roadster yet, but that awful-looking headlight ruins it for me...and that is just one example. I know that it's more aerodynamic and that a lower headlight throws a larger beam on the road, but this will take some getting used to.
(http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c229/JamesBagley/bf621e5161f9c717426d0d01a9ccf73d.jpg)
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I'm normally not a function-follows-form guy, but what's with the droopy headlights on standard bikes? The newer R1200R is probably BMW's best naked roadster yet, but that awful-looking headlight ruins it for me...and that is just one example. I know that it's more aerodynamic and that a lower headlight throws a larger beam on the road, but this will take some getting used to.
Ducati Monsters' headlights have been "melted" abominations for years, now.
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So.......... :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Don't hold us in suspenders.
:laugh: He just started a thread about the Texas Hill country .
Dusty
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So, did Darren's boat sink?
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So, did Darren's boat sink?
He just got tired of waxing it :laugh:
Dusty
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Dusty, I want what you and Vasco are smokin' :)
I suggested 75hp because it would make a dream bike. A push for sure, but doable. The standard bike makes 50.
And Pete I am still agreeing with you. I doubt very much that it could be done with the standard heads, or two piece valves that broke in the first few hundred kays, or with poor oil flow or whatever else ailed the old models. But with some good design it *could* be done. Think about it this way, do you think Honda could make 75hp out of an 800cc air/oil cooled twin?
So I guess your comments are more about what Moto Guzzi are capable of doing than how unrealistic my suggestions are. What I am suggesting is what I see is needed to make a niche bike. A platform to build on.
Perhaps the fairy dust is in peoples eyes blocking their vision...
http://archive.guzzitech.com/photos/Charlie1.jpg (http://archive.guzzitech.com/photos/Charlie1.jpg)
Someone found some fairy dust.
(https://i.ibb.co/0VVYL2y/V85-Engine-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0VVYL2y)
(https://i.ibb.co/q9Vvsgd/V85-Engine-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/q9Vvsgd)
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Still not seeing it. And I'll take anything spruiked Bt the 'Clan' with a huge bucket of salt.
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Still not seeing it. And I'll take anything spruiked Bt the 'Clan' with a huge bucket of salt.
No dyno chart , no real world performance testing , and the 100 HP per liter figure with a flat enough torque curve to work on the street using two valve heads with pushrods in a twin cylinder design is not an easy feat . Guessing it can be done , maybe , but until we see real verifiable figures backed by testing , I remain skeptical .
Dusty
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Saw this on Instagram. No idea where it came from - probably just a mock up someone did but looks great to me. Hopefully it's what Guzzi will do with the new motor.
(https://i.ibb.co/Yf6D8QB/Screenshot-20190709-191344-2.png) (https://ibb.co/Yf6D8QB)
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Hopefully not.
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I just hope they build stuff they can sell.
Develop a (broader) customer base, listen to them, then go that way (where possible).
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Continue with a new V85 Norge for those who like a lot of plastic protection, then a sporty LeMans version. That should about cover everyone's taste.
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Hopefully not.
yer such a turd pete, what's your issue with this one? :popcorn:
edited to say: Yes, I know it's just a photoshop fantasy, but the suspension has been at least brought into the current century (one of your complaints with the V7) and tho it's 'sporty' it isn't tarted up with lots of fake racer cosmetic showmanship. It has the most modern engine that guzzi makes....
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yer such a turd pete, what's your issue with this one? :popcorn:
edited to say: Yes, I know it's just a photoshop fantasy, but the suspension has been at least brought into the current century (one of your complaints with the V7) and tho it's 'sporty' it isn't tarted up with lots of fake racer cosmetic showmanship. It has the most modern engine that guzzi makes....
It is a motive unit based on the V9/V7III platform, it's suspension appears to be still a twin shock item, not even the inadequate cantilever system on the V85.
Apart from that it is another tiresome homage to the aesthetic ideals of forty years ago! Now you lot may be quite happy 'Groundhog Day'-ing your long lost youths and shouting at anything new as the work of the devil but I would prefer to see a company with the illustrious history of Guzzi continuing to break new ground and challenge the orthodoxy of current norms. That piece of photoshopped shite does neither.
I know I'm in a minority here saying that but just because you don't agree with me doesn't make my views invalid. Argue the toss or simply ignore me. Either is fine, but don't expect me to roll over and shriek hysterically because something 'New' looks like a tired old hacked up image of something from a lifetime ago!
Bollocks!
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I'm ok with an homage in the lineup as long as they also have a more modern model line. It's similar to how they're doing business currently except the big blocks are long in the tooth and from what I've heard, the big blocks are going away. Personally, I think the V7's are beautiful and for some reason I just hate the V9's. There's something "off" visually with them, imho. Using the V85 engine as a base for an homage(and maybe an 850 Norge) seems like good business to me. Motorcycle demographics have aged considerably over the last decade and 50 year old guys have the expendable income to buy motorcycles. Most of the buyers for an homage would be in the 50-60's since they'd be the majority of riders who understand the history of one.
I dunno if it is or not but the pic looks like another Luca Bar vaporware design. Having said that, I think it's good looking and I'd buy one if it had similar spec's as the V85TT.
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How about this vintage beauty? - - 1980 CX-1000 Le Mans
(https://i.ibb.co/zVdqw4L/Screen-Shot-2019-07-09-at-7-00-51-AM.png) (https://ibb.co/zVdqw4L)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1980-Moto-Guzzi-Lemans-1000/192972731963?_trkparms=aid%3D777001%26algo%3DDISCO.FEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160801204525%26meid%3D06850dcc11ab4dcf975024ce0cfc634c%26pid%3D100651%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D1%26%26itm%3D192972731963&_trksid=p2481888.c100651.m4497&_trkparms=pageci%3A1a2b5a3b-a251-11e9-a8e6-74dbd1803149%7Cparentrq%3Ad703db2716b0aad90511fed6ffa8f2e2%7Ciid%3A1
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It is a motive unit based on the V9/V7III platform, it's suspension appears to be still a twin shock item, not even the inadequate cantilever system on the V85.
Apart from that it is another tiresome homage to the aesthetic ideals of forty years ago! Now you lot may be quite happy 'Groundhog Day'-ing your long lost youths and shouting at anything new as the work of the devil but I would prefer to see a company with the illustrious history of Guzzi continuing to break new ground and challenge the orthodoxy of current norms. That piece of photoshopped shite does neither.
I know I'm in a minority here saying that but just because you don't agree with me doesn't make my views invalid. Argue the toss or simply ignore me. Either is fine, but don't expect me to roll over and shriek hysterically because something 'New' looks like a tired old hacked up image of something from a lifetime ago!
Bollocks!
I only see one shock, thought it was the V85 platform.
As for homage to the past, am I mistaken in thinking the V7 outsells any bike guzzi has made in the last 25 years tenfold? give the people what they want. Sure, Guzzi has 'broken new ground' in like 1972.... When was the last time they made something new that was class-leading fast? Never as far as I know. No one buys a guzzi because its the fastest or most cutting edge in it's segment, because they never have been?
The most groundbreaking new thinking they have had in the last 35years for sporting bikes was designed by a dentist.
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Moto Guzzi wouldn't build a cafe bike aka sport bike. That's Aprilia territory. That would be similar to Aprilia putting out a Dual purpose bike.
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Moto Guzzi wouldn't build a cafe bike aka sport bike. That's Aprilia territory. That would be similar to Aprilia putting out a Dual purpose bike.
And they'd never put out a bike called Caponord.
(https://secure.i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/03219/Aprilia-Rally-rear_3219592c.jpg)
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Missed that one. :grin: Are they still putting that one out? Is it a current bike?
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Missed that one. :grin: Are they still putting that one out? Is it a current bike?
They've built a couple versions. The pictured 1200 version was produced 2013-2016. They also built a 1000 version back in 2001-2004.
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So they have in their line-up the Dosoduro & a moped scooter. Looks like the divisions can do what they want. I retract my statement and was wrong. Seems Vespa & Piaggio are making scooters too. I guess Moto Guzzi could try and make a go fast motorcycle for sale. (at least in looks)
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https://www.rideapart.com/articles/365842/moto-guzzi-v85tt-renders-street/
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it's all rendering and wish list until I see the real thing...
I do like to see a baby LeMan style tho...that would be a fun one to own.
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it's all rendering
It's all rendering by a guy with no connection to Piaggio/Guzzi.
Same as the doodles on my legal pad, here at work... Just doodles...
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Given the success thus far of the V85TT...isn't everybody just waiting for the road version?
The TT has already given me pause, this first version would require serious soul searching...
(https://i.imgur.com/BCPeKLc.png)
the rest not horrible either
(https://i.imgur.com/scoDABy.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/fyfC0qD.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/c1lGH1r.png)
NTX variant
(https://i.imgur.com/QmYT1qB.png)
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Any one of those with the exception of the NTX would have me trading my Racer in.
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I like these two... :thumb: :cool: :smiley: :wink:
(https://i.ibb.co/vHThFQn/Screen-Shot-2019-09-17-at-9-28-20-AM.png) (https://ibb.co/vHThFQn)
(https://i.ibb.co/mSHDPjg/Screen-Shot-2019-09-17-at-9-28-11-AM.png) (https://ibb.co/mSHDPjg)
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The NTX variant appeals more to me - that's because I no longer fold up very well :rolleyes:
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:facepalm
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Nice looking bikes but shouldn't be a small block. 1400 with some aggressive tuning please.
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I guess with only the V85TT as a canvas. You'd have to deconstruct/reconstruct and "roll your own". Anyone want to photoshop one?
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Simple as this..
(https://i.ibb.co/D1ZtPy2/54-D35854-43-FB-48-F3-B3-AF-067-B34-B20793.png) (https://ibb.co/D1ZtPy2)
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A picture’s worth a thousand words...
(https://i.ibb.co/D1ZtPy2/54-D35854-43-FB-48-F3-B3-AF-067-B34-B20793.png) (https://ibb.co/D1ZtPy2)
Yes, that is interesting...but sometimes, LESS is more! :thumb: :cool: :smiley:
(https://i.ibb.co/LJ74t9g/Screen-Shot-2020-07-06-at-2-31-32-PM.png) (https://ibb.co/LJ74t9g)
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Well yes.
But not to the young cashed up buyer who’s looking at a new R1, GSXR, etc..
Guzzi has to strip down and get into bed with the mainstream motorcycle buying public.
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This is just more vaporware , which is why Rocker merged it with the other vaporware thread earlier .
Dusty
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What t'hell is vaporware?
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What t'hell is vaporware?
A nonexistent thing that will never exist.
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It cost me $3500 back in the day when $3500 was worth something to find out what vaporware was.. :evil:
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The more I see these photoshop mish mashes, the more I dislike them.
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I agree. I wish that Oberdan guy would crawl back under his rock and stay there.
These things frequently pop up on the Faecesbook Guzzi groups. The brain dead numpties all go "ooh!" & "ahh!", swooning as they demand to know when Guzzi will release that model, or wondering "why don't they build that?".
It irks me.
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A nonexistent thing that will never exist.
That is EXACTLY what many here on my list said about the V85.
There’s been a lot of humble pie and crow scoffing in the wake of it’s release. That V85 that will never be built owes me 29 grand.
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I agree. I wish that Oberdan guy would crawl back under his rock and stay there.
These things frequently pop up on the Faecesbook Guzzi groups. The brain dead numpties all go "ooh!" & "ahh!", swooning as they demand to know when Guzzi will release that model, or wondering "why don't they build that?".
It irks me.
You also said that regarding the V85 “concept” bike....
My “concept” bike has done 11,000 k’s...
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Did I? Prove it. Nothing this Oberdan dude has ever dreamt up has become a real bike.
Well, I'm not eating humble pie or crow. 29 grand? Ooh. Special. :rolleyes:
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Did I? Prove it. Nothing this Oberdan dude has ever dreamt up has become a real bike.
Well, I'm not eating humble pie or crow. 29 grand? Ooh. Special. :rolleyes:
Well, it sort of is and we both know the proof is there.
The bike is not special because it owes me money, it’s special because most of the luminaries said it was bullshit.
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Well, it sort of is and we both know the proof is there.
The bike is not special because it owes me money, it’s special because most of the luminaries said it was bullshit.
I think some of us were questioning the power figures , not the existence of the bike . Hell , does it really matter , we are talking about a motorbike that was at least rumored from reliable sources VS nothing but an image done by a computer .
Dusty
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If you think the bloke who photoshopped that thing above had absolutely anything to do with the V85tt, your living in fantasy land. It's not 'sort of is', it simply isn't.
There is no proof, because it never happened. None of that photoshopped crap is now, or ever will be, real. There's been a lot of these fake "concept" bikes. I said none of them will ever exist, and none do. And I'm not even close to being a luminary.
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Even if one of these doodles ends up resembling a production bike, there's been so damn many of them that it becomes a numbers game. A blind squirrel finds a nut every once and a while. It's not like there is anything original with these. Most of the bits are swiped from actual bikes.
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It's not like there is anything original with these. Most of the bits are swiped from actual bikes.
This.
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Did I? Prove it
Ok.
(https://i.ibb.co/pzXtv4h/9-ADDD473-D0-F5-41-E6-AAB4-2-EDB5553-D414.png) (https://ibb.co/pzXtv4h)
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Still not seeing any proof. That's just a similar comment to the one I made above.
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Good grief fellas .
Dusty
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:blank:
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Nup, all your protestations are smoke and mirrors Beetle.
My point was and still is, that stating that the latest concoction will “never make it into production”, is the same prediction you and your supporter/s made regarding the V85..
That was why I dragged up the post from yesteryear.
The V85 was widely held up as a fantasy that would never see the light of day and how wrong was that ?
Dusty’s point regarding the bogus power claims is totally valid, there were many lines published on that very point and it is not in dispute, but your post that the V85 was a “concept bike” and as such by definition would never be mass produced was an ill thought out statement.
Dragging the conversation into another sphere to muddy the waters, will not fly this time..
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Good grief fellas .
Dusty
Jeez Dusty, no one’s gunna lose an eye...
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Jeez Dusty, no one’s gunna lose an eye...
No , but this has become personal , gonna lock this thread for a few minutes and let everyone gather their thoughts . Arguing over this is silly , are we clear ?
Dusty
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Clear for me out here. :bow: and I'm out in the middle of the Pacific. :grin: :grin:
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No , but this has become personal , gonna lock this thread for a few minutes and let everyone gather their thoughts . Arguing over this is silly , are we clear ?
Defending myself against a baseless accusation is silly, is it? I see how it is.
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<sigh> See what happens , Huzo , since you insisted on poking the bear you get to contact beetle .
Dusty
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<sigh> See what happens , Huzo , since you insisted on poking the bear you get to contact beetle .
Dusty
Nobody gets out of my way to preserve my delicate sensibilities Dusty.
And bugger it all, who gets to nominate Mark as “the bear”. If every role was reversed, I’d just say “good one Beetle” and hit the embarrassed face emoji and move on.
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Nobody gets out of my way to preserve my delicate sensibilities Dusty.
And bugger it all, who gets to nominate Mark as “the bear”. If every roll was reversed, I’d just say “good one Beetle” and hit the embarrassed face emoji and move on.
Here is the problem , I am the bear . I asked nicely twice , no one listened .
Dusty
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Why does everyone get so mad about these photoshopped 'concept bikes'? Jeeze, its just a guy who is a fan of the brand playing around with ideas for Guzzi bikes...
Sure they are never going to see production, sure they are photoshop fantasy... Why get bent out of shape over it? He's not getting rich off posting them, it doesnt discount the value of your bike or your ride if he puts up a concept drawing. I just never understood why these drawings make some grown men so angry.
If someone posts one and says "look at this new guzzi concept!" is it really so offensive to say 'oh, thats just a fan art concept bike, not an actual guzzi prototype' and simply move on?
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Why does everyone get so mad about these photoshopped 'concept bikes'? Jeeze, its just a guy who is a fan of the brand playing around with ideas for Guzzi bikes...
Sure they are never going to see production, sure they are photoshop fantasy... Why get bent out of shape over it? He's not getting rich off posting them, it doesnt discount the value of your bike or your ride if he puts up a concept drawing. I just never understood why these drawings make some grown men so angry.
If someone posts one and says "look at this new guzzi concept!" is it really so offensive to say 'oh, thats just a fan art concept bike, not an actual guzzi prototype' and simply move on?
Thanks. You saved me from writing a similar response. :thumb:
Bob