Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: steven c on March 12, 2013, 01:00:09 PM
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This is cool. I though it was good for a new thread.
http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/744/15732/Motorcycle-Article/Indian-Debuts-Spirit-of-Munro-Streamliner.aspx
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Great way to debut the new engine.
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This will be interesting to follow. Can the find a geriatric old motorcycle racer to ride it?
Maybe a curmudgeonly old New Zealander will volunteer.
John?
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This will be interesting to follow. Can the find a geriatric old motorcycle racer to ride it?
Maybe a curmudgeonly old New Zealander will volunteer.
John?
<holding up hand and dancing around> me me me... ;D
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.The aforementioned curmudgeon is even from the same town as Mr Munro . Any stories , they don.t have to be 100% true ;) ;) Dusty
:+1 ;-T 8) :bow
please...
Steve
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Did anybody else read the caption the one of the pictures that said,
"The 'Spirit of Munro' is more than a replica. It comes complete with a custom chassis, exhaust, and intake, and features a chain drive conversion for the tall gearing requisite of a streamliner."
Chain drive conversion? Does this mean the new Indian is going to be shaft driven?
Sam
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Chain drive conversion? Does this mean the new Indian is going to be shaft driven?
Sam
Belt drive.
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Belt drive makes sense! Didnt even thank of that,lol
Sam
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Classic looking engine. Much more pleasing than the Victory mill.
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That is the most awesome looking power plant I have ever seen!!!
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The engine shows that art and function are compatible.
I just hope the bike follows suit.
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for some reason I can already envision an Indian Scout Burt Munro Commemorative Performance Edition.
:bike
I have a feeling it won't be in my budget. ???
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Classic looking engine. Much more pleasing than the Victory mill.
What he said. Indian's new engine is lovely, nostalgic. The Victory engines are fugly.
Ralph
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The engine shows that art and function are compatible.
I just hope the bike follows suit.
Lets just ignore the engineering crimes they have done to create the "look" . Three cams, one more and they could have a full house DOHC setup all simply to get the pushrod tubes to line up with the cylinders, straight down exhaust with OHV means the exhaust gases go through a full 180degree U turn before exiting the head at least it has plain bearings and a proper oiling system.
If they were going to build a simple motor they should of done it and it would look they way it would look thats how the original company did it. Instead they have done a mish mash of engineering purely in pursuit of vanity exactly why I haven't taken their more established direct competitor seriously.
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Three cams, one more and they could have a full house DOHC setup all simply to get the pushrod tubes to line up with the cylinders,
Sportsters have four cams and four pushrods.
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Sportsters have four cams and four pushrods.
Yet some people won't buy water cooled bikes because they are too complicated!
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I think the new 111 cubic inch "Thunderstroke" motor from Polaris is cool! 8) ;-T Kudos to them ;-T for stepping up to the plate again on behalf of Indian enthusiasts (old and new) worldwide!
Now...let's see that new motor in a motorcycle for the street! :) ;) 8) ;-T ;-T ;-T
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Yet some people won't buy water cooled bikes because they are too complicated!
Sportsters' gear driven cams are a work of retro art. It's too bad the whole arrangement is hidden by the right-side engine cover.
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Lets just ignore the engineering crimes they have done to create the "look" . Three cams, one more and they could have a full house DOHC setup all simply to get the pushrod tubes to line up with the cylinders, straight down exhaust with OHV means the exhaust gases go through a full 180degree U turn before exiting the head at least it has plain bearings and a proper oiling system.
If they were going to build a simple motor they should of done it and it would look they way it would look thats how the original company did it. Instead they have done a mish mash of engineering purely in pursuit of vanity exactly why I haven't taken their more established direct competitor seriously.
yeah? and I have a bike with one cam and 4 pushrods (it's Moto Guzzi). Big Harleys have two cams & 4 pushrods and Sporters (& Buells) have 4 cams and 4 pushrods. S&S makes the X-type engine with 3 cams & 4 pushrods.
so? :BEER:
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BhDvAqLeE8E&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Starting at $18,999 means not a boutique bike.
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I'm really excited about this brand coming back. Have you seen anything about a potential Scout that might complete against the Sportster?
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$15k of it seems to be the chrome. ;D
They're generally not my style, but I bet it'll be a good looking bike.
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They have a marketing plan! all the build up with just glimpses of the whole package is genius. already looks too chrome for me but they got the price right!
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I haven't heard anything but speculation about a Scout, but I like the concept.
I'm not a fan of chrome either, but the trend is to include blacked out models too, so one can hope.
Bottom line to me is choice....options are good.
The RK, Cali 1400, Victory CC, and hopefully soon this new Indian all in a segment I enjoy.
Things are lookin up.
That said, snuck out for a brief ride on the V7 yesterday and continue to thoroughly enjoy it!
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I think an Indian Scout would be cool too. I'm just happy whenever ANY new motorcycle comes out. ;D It's fun to just see some variety / choice in the market.
I wish Moto Morini would make it stateside, I know they have lots of financial issues but their bikes look great. There are many good choices out there which aren't even available in the US market. I know many niche brands wouldn't sell well here, but it would just be nice to be able to order one on your own even if there wasn't a dealer network available. I wouldn't mind doing my own work on a newer MM...
Back to the Indian though, I look forward to pictures of the new model! ;-T
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Wonder how Peter Green feels about the obvious rip off of his song ?
Dusty
Well, Steven Tyler has been quoted as saying one of the best things that ever happened to them was RUN DMC sampling/remaking "Walk This Way", sooo different musician and to a different extent, but I wouldn't assume anything.
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Wow! The herd thickens. I am sure there will be some gnashing of teeth in Milwaukee.
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Wonder how Peter Green feels about the obvious rip off of his song ?
Dusty
... Oh well ? ;) :BEER:
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I'm not a big cruiser guy, but I'm pretty excited about this!
Glad a company like Polaris picked up the brand and is actually doing something with it!
;-T
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I'm not a big cruiser guy, but I'm pretty excited about this!
Glad a company like Polaris picked up the brand and is actually doing something with it!
;-T
Polaris Dealer nearby, Riders Hill a short sweet ride north...
~Heaven,
I'm in heaven
And my heart beats
So that I can hardly speak
And I seem to find
The happiness I seek
When we're out together
Dancing cheek to cheek~ 8) ;D
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Wonder how Peter Green feels about the obvious rip off of his song ?
Dusty
He probably appreciates the royalty checks.
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Glad a company like Polaris picked up the brand and is actually doing something with it!
;-T
Me too. Polaris has demonstrated they (i) know how to build bikes from the ground up, and (ii) have deep enough pockets to do it right, and (iii) do it at a price where people will actually buy and use them. Indian's recent sordid past shows that you need to be able hit all 3 of those targets, cause there's no partial credit.
-Steve
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I see a bit of floorboards and they look positioned really far forward.
A super duper laid back cruiser? Going after the Harley Davidison market? If so they will have to have a HUGE marketing campaign!
Showtime!
8)
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I see a bit of floorboards and they look positioned really far forward.
OMFG not this crap again.
I seem to remember the curmudgeon brigade saying the same crap about the new Cali and they were completely wrong.
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Polaris is first class in every regard. The price point is very competitve. With their new engine and classic looks, this bike will have many standing in line to get one.
When the Indian is delivered in Houston, I intend to go look. The big cruiser market has needed serious competition, and Indian has the cred.
This weekend I may ride up to MPH to drool at a Cali.
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Looking good. Pricing is right where it should be and what they told us in Daytona. Quality of design, fit and finish of what I saw with the 111 motor is superb. Looks like that's carrying over to the bike. No H-D clone here either. I just hope they dont "Arlen Ness" the bike and make it too funky. Classic Indian lines and themes are there for the taking and will sell bikes if they use it.
This type of bike may not be right for everybody but this will be good for many folks, even H-D riders. The breed is improved through competition. I expect the 110 to be worked down into the H-D Touring line pretty soon.
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OK, I am stating the obvious , but this is not an Indian , no heritage , no history . Polaris is a wonderful company , fine products , but they are not the Hendee Manufacturing ,co. builders of the Indian Motocycle ,no R . I hope Polaris can sell these , but marketing the heritage is ,well , marketing .
Dusty
They bought the rights...sooo who the Duc cares?
To some extent the same argument can be made for Triumph, Guzzi, Duc, Harley, etc
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OK, I am stating the obvious , but this is not an Indian , no heritage , no history . Polaris is a wonderful company , fine products , but they are not the Hendee Manufacturing ,co. builders of the Indian Motocycle ,no R . I hope Polaris can sell these , but marketing the heritage is ,well , marketing .
Dusty
lol
Pot calling the kettle black.
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Penderic , someone is gonna make money on this , huh.
Advertising and Marketing, for sure! ;)
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Dude , don't start this again , everyone already knows you think I am the stupidest person who ever lived , give it a rest .
Dusty
Give what a rest?
I found it funny that ANYONE would say that about Indian on a forum for a motorcycle company that was bought out, has a new parent company, and now finally being given the attention it needed. Really the same story as Indian, other than Polaris has it a bit easier with their brand history and their already HUGE dealer network.
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Here's a pic of one taken at the Laughlin River Run 2013, NV. They had several beautiful Indians but they looked quite big.
(http://i1361.photobucket.com/albums/r676/lyongusa/photo3_zps47544a5c.jpg) (http://s1361.photobucket.com/user/lyongusa/media/photo3_zps47544a5c.jpg.html)
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:+=copcar OH-WHAT WEIGHT OIL DOES THIS TAKE ??? ??? :BEER: :BEER: :BEER:
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That's neither the new motor or new bike....
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To some extent the same argument can be made for Triumph, Guzzi, Duc, Harley, etc
lol
Pot calling the kettle black.
I suppose, the big distinction with HD, Ducati, and Guzzi vs Indian, Norton, etc. is that they've been in business continually and still occupy thier original factories. (though HD has grown well beyond Milwaukee).
Polaris is getting ready to knock a home run with Indian. So, despite no ties to Springfield, the brand has an identity and will be successful on its own level with the Polaris clout behind it.
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I guess it's warm and fuzzy to have continuous operation, but honestly, what does it REALLY matter.
Polaris is trying to market a Harley competitor, with modern components, a new proprietary motor, and styling cues that harken back to the hay days of this formerly great name.
What's the down side?
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I think it would be seriously cool if they built another air cooled inline four, sitting inline with the frame of the bike. I witnessed an Indian four running a few months back, man what a sweet design! ;-T One can only wish....I doubt it will ever happen.
I also am looking forward to the new Indian "done right" this time.
Rick.
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Considering Polaris' reputation and track record, why would anyone expect something other than a quality, competitive product.
Once again, I don't understand the negativity or hand wringing.
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KevM , if you will read my earlier posts I stated that Polaris will probably build a quality product and that I greatly respect what they have already accomplished. My discomfort sets in with the marketing of history and tradition , kind of like McDs intimating they invented the hamburger or that HD invented the MC. Marketing BS is still BS .
I see, and I think most people of reasonable intelligence, see marketing for what it is...entertainment at best or a nuisance at worst.
I've never seen Mcd claim it invented the burger nor HD lay claim to the history of the MC.
What Harley DOES claim is a consistency of design/style.
Which is what Indian will likely market.
But at the end of the day marketing is still BS, what matters is the product.
And THAT is what I'm excited about...the choice of another product.
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You're starting to drift from marketing to history...
That said, don't you ride a Jackal? Don't assume they'll never make something for you.
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Yeah, it's all good, but I still don't buy your examples...
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I'm a wee bit confused. On the Indian Motorcycle website they have several models, one pushing $40K and most well above $25K and with what appears to be S&S motors. Is this old stock from a previous manufacturing run or what?
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I'm a wee bit confused. On the Indian Motorcycle website they have several models, one pushing $40K and most well above $25K and with what appears to be S&S motors. Is this old stock from a previous manufacturing run or what?
Yes, old stock. Nothing to do with new motor that was shown recently or new models.
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Yes, old stock. Nothing to do with new motor that was shown recently or new models.
:+1
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Polaris is trying to market a Harley competitor, with modern components, a new proprietary motor, and styling cues that harken back to the hay days of this formerly great name.
What's the down side?
I can't really think of one at this point.
I wish they'd buy Norton next!
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"Choice is coming to American motorcycles"
That's the new Indian marketing slogan. It was plastered all over Daytona during Bike Week.
I find it interesting that the parent company of Victory is basically addmitting that Victory apparently never offered a "choice."
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Here's a pic of one taken at the Laughlin River Run 2013, NV. They had several beautiful Indians but they looked quite big.
(http://i1361.photobucket.com/albums/r676/lyongusa/photo3_zps47544a5c.jpg) (http://s1361.photobucket.com/user/lyongusa/media/photo3_zps47544a5c.jpg.html)
That's the old Harley-clone Indian.
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Wonder how Peter Green feels about the obvious rip off of his song ?
Dusty
Oh Well, shit happens
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Thanks gentlemen. New motor is going to really improve the looks of those bikes.
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It's not something that I would consider but I am surprised that this bike is less thank $30k looking at the engine & surrounding hype.
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It's not something that I would consider but I am surprised that this bike is less thank $30k looking at the engine & surrounding hype.
Why the surprise?
I think the past Indian attempts made it clear they weren't going to make it on a boutique bike/price.
Like the Cali, they realize it needs to be competitive.
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OK, I am stating the obvious , but this is not an Indian , no heritage , no history . Polaris is a wonderful company , fine products , but they are not the Hendee Manufacturing ,co. builders of the Indian Motocycle ,no R . I hope Polaris can sell these , but marketing the heritage is ,well , marketing .
Dusty
By your same theory and reasoning, Moto Guzzi died the day Carlo Guzzi did. Then died again when DeTomaso bought it, then again when the Texas group bought the brand, then again when Aprilia bought them and again when Piaggio did. I may have missed an owner along the line somewhere. Sorry, but your theory doesn't hold any credibility IMHO. But, time will tell how things go.
Judging by my new Victory Cross Country Tour, Polaris knows their stuff and how to build a motorcycle. The CCT is simply the most comfortable and capable motorcycle I've ever been on. I don't need to change anything to 'make it fit'. Polaris even designed in adjustable brake and shift levers as they can move forward or rearward easily to accommodate a wide variety of riders. I have no idea if Polaris has a wind tunnel but even the air management on the CCT is superb.
I wish them nothing but success with the new Indian line.
All the best,
Mark
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I think it would be seriously cool if they built another air cooled inline four, sitting inline with the frame of the bike. I witnessed an Indian four running a few months back, man what a sweet design! ;-T
What a chilling thought... I'd want one ;-T
A club member here has a 99% judged Indian 4. Stunning.........
http://seepictures.wix.com/genesgarage#!bikes
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Okay, so I bought a Dodge truck a while back. Then Chrysler got sold to to Mercedes (that sale got called a partnership), so does that mean I started driving a Mercedes? Now that Chrysler has been bought out by Fiat, well.... Then there's Jaguar owned by Ford. The look is all Jaguar, but the chassis is all Ford. Then you can take the MG design and sell it to Mazda. They fix the electrical, put new sheet metal around it, and voila, it's a Miata. Is it still an MG? It still rides like one, less the gremlins.
As William said, "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet."
Still, when you look at a Mustang, a Corvette, or a Thunderbird, you can see a continuity of design, even though some of those designs really had more to do with current trends than said continuity. Somehow, to varying degrees, the essence of those design concepts survive.
Having read the hype regarding Indian, I'd say they've done more than just marketing to reach back in time and distill whatever it was that made an Indian respected and loved. Many of us hope they succeed. How will we know? Folks that were dedicated Indian riders will see and feel something in the ride of the new bike that they recognize. Those with the opportunity to ride old and new will recognize some kind of kinship.
If the attempt fails, it may be a great bike, but it will only be a modern bike with retro tins. Better to drop the Indian name and give the new bike its own name before the Indian head logo falls off on its own.
So yea, it's just a name, just like a bike or car is just a machine. But if it talks to you, it will tell you whether or not it's an Indian.
Right?
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This is why Polaris picked up the Indian brand. Victory started from scratch and has had a tough time picking up a following of any size big enough to worry H-D. With Indian, presto...instant name recognition. Everybody not already under the Harley umbrella is pulling for the Chief to make a big splash and at least get H-D's feet wet. Now I think you are going to see Polaris market Victory to even further out on the cutting edge style wise, while marketing a very modern technology engineered yet very retro styled Indian for a more traditionalist market. Very smart.
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Chicago Mark ,my point is that marketing is not tied to production or quality . I am relatively sure that Polaris will build a fine bike , and I wish them well , but using the Indian name is a pure marketing ploy . If HD decided to revive the Pope or Cushman name would it be a Pope or Cushman ? In name only . Look I get it , they spent lots of money and time to obtain the trade mark , and I wish them well , but I refuse to be swayed by a million dollar ad campaign .
Dusty
To take what Wheaties said a step further, the answer is
it depends.
A Pontiac Vibe is REALLY a Toyota Matrix, and similarly the Gilroy Indians were really Harleys. Yes, that was marketing.
But designing a ground up bike, be it an OHC Bonnie, a Griso 8V, or new Indian with a motor that harkens back to the look and design of the historic Indians are all examples of not JUST marketing...
It's designing a product in the style, tradition, and particular flavor which that brand name represented.
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[quote
But designing a ground up bike, be it an OHC Bonnie, a Griso 8V, or new Indian with a motor that harkens back to the look and design of the historic Indians are all examples of not JUST marketing...
It's designing a product in the style, tradition, and particular flavor which that brand name represented.
[/quote]
I agree 100%. The Gilroy 'Indians' were, IMHO, catalog/parts bin bikes with nothing associated with Indian except the name on the tank. They weren't even a decent copy of a good motorcycle. But with the new Indian company under Polaris, this is a modern Indian motorcycle. Not only by the name on the tank, but by the design elements that went into designing every bit of it. They may be made in Spirit lake, Iowa under the same roof as the Victory brand, but Indian is their own brand. This is NOT a Buick/Chevy/Pontiac scenario by a long shot.
All the best,
Mark
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If the attempt fails, it may be a great bike, but it will only be a modern bike with retro tins. Better to drop the Indian name and give the new bike its own name before the Indian head logo falls off on its own.
Back in the late 50s I worked for an Indian dealer (mostly BSA at the time). The Indian company died in 1953. Others (Clymer, AMC) tried to keep the name going by badging Velocettes and Royal Enfields. None made it because there was no continuity. The old Indian fans wouldn't buy them and the new riders knew that they were buying a Velo or Enfield.
Many years later the Indian name was resurrected by several groups and now Polaris looks to be on top. This is not a buyout of the Indian company by another mfgr. - it is a totally new bike with the Indian name on it. Not a single bit of continuity.
Hey, I sold a good running 47 Chief a few years back for $19,000 - the same price as a new replica. Why would I want to buy an imitation if I could have the real thing for the same price.
I know- reliability, handling, electrics etc., etc. Harley and Moto Guzzi have been in business continuously for many years (regardless of who owned the company) so a retro bike from them is still a Guzzi or Harley.
I wish Polaris luck with their marketing but I still just don't get the concept. Remember the Excelsior?
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Back to the base price of 19K, that seems high to me. For 19 will it come well equipped, as in a touring form? Or is this going be a standard cruiser? If its decked out with a reasonable pile of good stuff, price seems fine, if not?
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Lol
Im always amused at the pervasive propensity of people groups to argue among themselves about obtuse points.
When Polaris purchased Indian they were buying market name recognition and a sort of "instant heritage and tradition," up to 1953 anyway. Those factors figure prominently in marketing this sort of product.
More than just a bunch of "johnnie-come-latelies" content with the right to stick an Indian decal on a gas tank, Polaris has gone to great lengths to replicate the styling themes of the Indians produced prior to 1953. This gives them a classic american bike design that cannot be criticized as just another imitation of a Harley-Davidson.
I think this is a good formula for success.
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Back to the base price of 19K, that seems high to me. For 19 will it come well equipped, as in a touring form? Or is this going be a standard cruiser? If its decked out with a reasonable pile of good stuff, price seems fine, if not?
The Harley Softail Deluxe (no bags etc) starts at $17,400
The standard Road King (with bags) starts at $17,700
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Polaris is a $2B+ company, so they have the financial resources to pull this off. They have done quite well with the Victory brand in the last few years. ;-T
I believe their new Thunderstroke 111 cubic inch motor is completely new and re-designed and not a copy of the old Power-Plus ("Bottlecap") S&S V-twin of yesteryear. $19K is a good price point to complete with HD (IMHO). 8)
It will be interesting to see the entire motorcycle in August at Sturgis. :)
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So has anyone actually seen this new Polarindian taht we are discussing ?
Dusty
No, they are building suspense for a Sturgis roll-out apparently.
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Polaris is a $2B+ company, so they have the financial resources to pull this off. They have done quite well with the Victory brand in the last few years. ;-T
I believe their new Thunderstroke 111 cubic inch motor is completely new and re-designed and not a copy of the old Power-Plus ("Bottlecap") S&S V-twin of yesteryear. $19K is a good price point to complete with HD (IMHO). 8)
It will be interesting to see the entire motorcycle in August at Sturgis. :)
I agree. First time since 1953. In fact, Polaris is better equipped than the original Indian company back then ! They folded.
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Regardless of what happens with Indian or Harley - everyone can still like and ride a GUZZI too ! It's not mutually exclusive ! lol
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So we are all hopped up over something none of us have even gotten a look at . Yea, I'd say the marketing is working .
DID YOU NOT WATCH THE VIDEO?
We've gotten a glimpse of the silhouette and more importantly we've seen the motor and some have read articles on it. What's wrong with speculation and enthusiasm for what it looks like might be?
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Well I was just trying to inject some humor . Besides , thought we were a group of analytical thinkers not swayed by some slickster ad campaign .
Dusty
I thought we were analytically analyzing what little info has been released through marketing?
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All I can say is that it at least has a newly designed mill, not some S & S Harley clone motor. Though be sure that will be a lot of chrome.
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Lol
Im always amused at the pervasive propensity of people groups to argue among themselves about obtuse points.
When Polaris purchased Indian they were buying market name recognition and a sort of "instant heritage and tradition," up to 1953 anyway. Those factors figure prominently in marketing this sort of product.
More than just a bunch of "johnnie-come-latelies" content with the right to stick an Indian decal on a gas tank, Polaris has gone to great lengths to replicate the styling themes of the Indians produced prior to 1953. This gives them a classic american bike design that cannot be criticized as just another imitation of a Harley-Davidson.
I think this is a good formula for success.
;-T
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The buy/sell of companies and using the old name/marque is common in the watch industry also. Some do it with taste and integrity- most don't. Seems to me that this is a really sincere attempt at recreating the vibe and essence of the original product, yet using modern technology. In watches, the "new" Hamilton has done a fine job in coming out with some great designs, that are well made, for a very reasonable price. No down side as far as i can see.
I don't know anyone who doesn't give a tip of the hat to Bloor for doing a spectacular job with the modern Bonnies. Nothing pretentious or phoney about those bikes and they are responsible for putting a sparkle in the eye of many, many folks who have gotten back into riding or are beginning riders. Of course, the V7C hits the same cords with many folks and has been a great boost to our favorite brand. Who really gives a damn what some crotchety, uptight collector thinks.
My gut feeling is that the buzz out there is not just marketing hype. There are lots of people who are genuinely excited to see this roll out. My guess is that LOTS of Harley guys will be applauding the hardest.
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This is why Polaris picked up the Indian brand. Victory started from scratch and has had a tough time picking up a following of any size big enough to worry H-D. With Indian, presto...instant name recognition. Everybody not already under the Harley umbrella is pulling for the Chief to make a big splash and at least get H-D's feet wet. Now I think you are going to see Polaris market Victory to even further out on the cutting edge style wise, while marketing a very modern technology engineered yet very retro styled Indian for a more traditionalist market. Very smart.
Well they didn't totally start from scratch. Polaris, though their other products, already has a staff on board to design and produce pretty much whatever they wanted. They also have a extensive dealer network with service (though their snowmobiles, ATV's, and watercraft) that rolling out motorcycles was just a matter of getting current dealers to sign up rather than starting from scratch. The main hurdle was introducing the new brand to the public - which they did to some success (victory as a brand is still around).
This is also why they can focus on marketing Indian right off the bat. They have the means to design and produce the bikes, the dealer network is still there, and unlike victory the public is already aware of the brand.
This is also why Guzzi is having a harder time. They don't have the network around, they IMO were lucky to be around for the past 20 years, and the public doesn't really know the brand.
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;D :BEER:
I have to remember " analytically analyzing " and do I have your permission to use it in print ?
Dusty
one beer royalties per usage... :BEER:
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Then there's Jaguar owned by Ford. The look is all Jaguar, but the chassis is all Ford. Then you can take the MG design and sell it to Mazda. They fix the electrical, put new sheet metal around it, and voila, it's a Miata. Is it still an MG? It still rides like one, less the gremlins.
Except Jaguar isn't owned by Ford, hasn't been for years. Now owned by Tata of India. And how was the Miata an "MG design"? Just because it was influenced by the MG and other classic roadsters, doesn't mean it was one of the old designs, far from it. It was a total clean sheet design.
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Except Jaguar isn't owned by Ford, hasn't been for years. Now owned by Tata of India. And how was the Miata an "MG design"? Just because it was influenced by the MG and other classic roadsters, doesn't mean it was one of the old designs, far from it. It was a total clean sheet design.
Well, thanks for the correction. I recall reading that Mazda bought the MG design, then went through it, and modernized the electrical and sheet metal. But if that's incorrect, then I'm wrong.
Matt
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(http://i1361.photobucket.com/albums/r676/lyongusa/photo3_zps47544a5c.jpg) (http://s1361.photobucket.com/user/lyongusa/media/photo3_zps47544a5c.jpg.html)
[/quote]
OMG! This looks like a parade motorcycle from a circus. I would not even been cought dead on one of these!
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OMG! This looks like a parade motorcycle from a circus. I would not even been cought dead on one of these!
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That's an old stock CMC Indian. The ones with the HD 4-speed frame and S&S Evo engine.
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Wheaties , brilliantly put . I am exiting this thread , at least for a while because it is so hard to convey my mixed feelings on this badge engineering . Guys ,I see the other side of the argument even if I am not convinced of it's veracity .
Dusty
ALWAYS enjoy your imputs!, ALL opinions welcomed here!
I do a lot of sitting back and just reading all peoples comments, especially the more passionately expressed ones.
I love old bikes and their history but, for me, I still seem to express what my heart believes 60/40 over what my head knows! :BEER:
Rock On Mr. Dusty!!!
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The ones with the HD 4-speed frame and S&S Evo engine.
4-speed frame? ???
Not sure about motor. I guess that's something the last owners were doing.
My bud's Gilroy Chief has an S&S motor that doesn't look like that...looks shorter like a typical EVO.
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4-speed frame? ???
Not sure about motor. I guess that's something the last owners were doing.
My bud's Gilroy Chief has an S&S motor that doesn't look like that...looks shorter like a typical EVO.
"Power Plus" engine had the "bottle cap" valve covers. Still an S&S engine.
"4-speed frame" refers to the style of the frame. Styled like the old HD 4-speed FL frames.
All that stuff is out of a Custom Chrome catalog.
The CMC Indians were laughable!
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Harley and Moto Guzzi have been in business continuously for many years (regardless of who owned the company) so a retro bike from them is still a Guzzi or Harley.
I wish Polaris luck with their marketing but I still just don't get the concept.
Amen!
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"Power Plus" engine had the "bottle cap" valve covers. Still an S&S engine.
I thought it was "more different" from an EVO though - as oppossed to the S&S EVO motors the Gilroy Indians used.
Here's my bud's... at the Heath Guzzi/BMW Damn-Yankee thing...
(http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/1047/vid01258.jpg)
(http://a.imageshack.us/img203/9191/1002889.jpg)
(http://a.imageshack.us/img69/4645/1002896y.jpg)
"4-speed frame" refers to the style of the frame. Styled like the old HD 4-speed FL frames.
Ah, never heard it referred to that way before.
FWIW, the Gilroy Indians basically were using a copy of a Harley Softail frame, many parts were interchangeable between the chassis and motor on my bud's bike.
The later ones (the real boutique priced ones) used a lot of high end components - like Baker 6-speeds and decent brakes etc which was nice, but certainly not enough to command the boutique prices.
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I was gonna skip this cause I thought it was a silly nit-picky point, but I'm a silly nit-picky guy so:
Harley and Moto Guzzi have been in business continuously for many years (regardless of who owned the company) so a retro bike from them is still a Guzzi or Harley.
I wish Polaris luck with their marketing but I still just don't get the concept. Remember the Excelsior?
I see you left out Triumph... I guess I just don't get, not getting the concept. People loved the looks and function of the old Indians.
IF they HAD been in business this entire time they would have evolved and changed in some ways.
I don't see the negative of trying to ressurect the brand name with bikes styled after their great bikes of old but using a modern designed motor and new chassis with modern components. What's the downside?
I mean, it's like saying that the V7 retros are OK ONLY BECAUSE Guzzi stayed in business all that time. SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOO?
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I've seen those pix, before, of your bud's black/green Scout.
Good looking bike! ;-T
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FWIW, the Gilroy Indians basically were using a copy of a Harley Softail frame, many parts were interchangeable between the chassis and motor on my bud's bike.
I forgot about that. You're right. I just Googled up some images. Softail clone.
My comment about "4-speed frame" would refer to a bike with a Duo-Glide swingarm frame.
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I've seen those pix, before, of your bud's black/green Scout.
Good looking bike! ;-T
I'm sure I've shared them here after the Heath rallye. I really kinda like the one at the gas station with my old Jackal next to it.
He feels a real kindred with Guzzi guys, as shortly after purchasing his then new Gilroy Indian he found himself without any dealers (or parts, or warranty :BEER:).
That bike is a rider and he enjoys it for what it is. Keeps up with whatever I was doing on the Jackal or his bud on the GS too.
It's a bit low, and a bit loud for my taste, but that's fine, it's not mine...
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I mean, it's like saying that the V7 retros are OK ONLY BECAUSE Guzzi stayed in business all that time. SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOO?
LOL
;-T
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Crocker and Henderson would be nice niche brand names to bring back. ;D
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The Miata was based on the original Lotus Elan is what I heard. Is does look more like the elan than anything else.
Well, thanks for the correction. I recall reading that Mazda bought the MG design, then went through it, and modernized the electrical and sheet metal. But if that's incorrect, then I'm wrong.
Matt
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It looks like an Elan, which isn't a bad deal, however it as a clean sheet design done in Irvine CA. There certainly isn't anything MG about it. that's about like the accusations that the original Hinckley Triumphs were Kawasakis. There were some engineering consults there, but certainly nothing that was Kawasaki imitated.
Royal Enfield has been around basically longer than anyone and they have evolved into a Unit construction engine with EFI and electronic ignition with a totally modern design. they've even gone to hydraulic lifters, puts them ahead of MG! It's still based on the old engine, but is far better. It's a bit hard to call it retro, because it's never really looked much different. They ever went to a more modern design, then stepped back. They've always looked about the same.
Unfortunately, my cafe racer version was run off the road a few months ago and totaled. I was waiting for their new Cafe Racer to get here, but I got tired of waiting and bought the Guzzi V7R. I gotta have something to ride!
As for the real theme of this thread, Polaris is selling off the left over stuff from the last company that built Indians until they get their new one out. Polaris' bikes will be totally new and original and more Indian like, including the engine. Not a customized Hardly Ableson.
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I mean, it's like saying that the V7 retros are OK ONLY BECAUSE Guzzi stayed in business all that time. SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOO?
No, it's like saying that the V7 retros are still Guzzis made by Guzzi. The retro Indian is a brand new motorcycle with some styling features of a long defunct company. It's not an Indian except in a purchased name.
I never said there was anything wrong with trying that approach and I said I wish them luck. I still just don't get it. ::)
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No, it's like saying that the V7 retros are still Guzzis made by Guzzi. The retro Indian is a brand new motorcycle with some styling features of a long defunct company. It's not an Indian except in a purchased name.
I never said there was anything wrong with trying that approach and I said I wish them luck. I still just don't get it. ::)
But how is it still made by "Guzzi"?
Because the assembly point is the same factory?
Even though the engines are built elsewhere, and someone else designed nearly everything the current bike?
The "Guzzi" that built the V7 Sport, Eldo, Ambo etc is long gone.
Is the fact that the bankrupt business was bought by someone, and then someone else somehow a more significant direct lineage to the sacred cow?
There's no real DNA being handed down in either case.
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Is the fact that the bankrupt business was bought by someone, and then someone else somehow a more significant direct lineage to the sacred cow?
There's no real DNA being handed down in either case.
It's amazing Guzzi is still around.
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The "Guzzi" that built the V7 Sport, Eldo, Ambo etc is long gone.
Wow Kev, you are reaaaallllly stretching it there.
What if Kawasaki would have purchased the "sacred INDIAN name" and came out with this ad
(http://global.fncstatic.com/static/managed/img/Leisure/2009/indian-chief-660.jpg)
would we have called it a Drifter or an Indian? ;)
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Wow Kev, you are reaaaallllly stretching it there.
What if Kawasaki would have purchased the "sacred INDIAN name" and came out with this ad
(http://global.fncstatic.com/static/managed/img/Leisure/2009/indian-chief-660.jpg)
would we have called it a Drifter or an Indian? ;)
:+1 :+1
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Then Kawi finally would have had the right to build bikes shaped like that AND to call them Indian to boot! ;-T
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Wow Kev, you are reaaaallllly stretching it there.
How is he stretching it?
The company has been though a few owners since then, and now has a recent model line with all (or almost all) products being new within the last 10 years - sure names are re-badged but that's about it.
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How is he stretching it?
The company has been though a few owners since then, and now has a recent model line with all (or almost all) products being new within the last 10 years - sure names are re-badged but that's about it.
And isn't that true for the entire car/motorcycle industry?
Since Audi purchased Ducati, is it still Ducati?
As far as the Guzzi model line-up, Thank God for Piaggio or Moto Guzzi would now be where Indian has been since 1953, Out Of Business.
The fact of the matter is: Polaris bought a "name", that's it.
I wish them good luck!
Ooops...dinner is ready :food
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The fact of the matter is: Polaris bought a "name", that's it.
So?
=/
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Skidoo could buy the Orange County Chopper name and restart that brand!
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[/quote]
But how is it still made by "Guzzi"?
Because the assembly point is the same factory?
Even though the engines are built elsewhere, and someone else designed nearly everything the current bike?
The "Guzzi" that built the V7 Sport, Eldo, Ambo etc is long gone.
Is the fact that the bankrupt business was bought by someone, and then someone else somehow a more significant direct lineage to the sacred cow?
There's no real DNA being handed down in either case.
I'm pretty sure that small block engines have always been manufactured outside Mandelo. I think there is real Old school Guzzi DNA in the current small block line to be sure. It is still the same block that one of the famous Guzzi engineers designed. It is still the same architecture for the trans and drive train as well. That's not to say their has not be a great deal of refinements and changes made, but the big heavy hard parts are essentially the same as those first put out in the 70s.
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OK, I am stating the obvious , but this is not an Indian , no heritage , no history . Polaris is a wonderful company , fine products , but they are not the Hendee Manufacturing ,co. builders of the Indian Motocycle ,no R . I hope Polaris can sell these , but marketing the heritage is ,well , marketing .
Dusty
Dusty, you da man!
....and please don't blush! ;D
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:-* I wasn't being metaphorical with my DNA comment. :BEER:
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Video 0:59:
"Choice is coming to American motorcycles"
Great PR, what a bunch of BS!
I wouldn't buy a start up retro. I've seen too many corporate swindles: Norton, DeLorean...
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I wouldn't buy a start up retro. I've seen too many corporate swindles: Norton, DeLorean...
But, Polaris is not a "startup". They've been around since 1954.
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But, Polaris is not a "startup". They've been around since 1954.
yep, selling skidoo (sic) ;)
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yep, selling skidoo (sic) ;)
Uh, no... that's Bombardier...who ironically now owns Johnson/Evinrude...
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Wait a minute Bombardier is Canadian , and French Canadian at that , is this all a conspiracy ?
Dusty
Mon Dieu!
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Mon Dieu back at ya . And several other French words you silly Englishman .
Dusty
Don't call me English you bastid... Dad was born/raised in Dublin, Ireland and mom's dad was born in Borgatoro, Italy. ~;
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I don't know sh*t about Polaris making V twin motorcycles.
I do remember them making skidoo wantabee snowmobiles tho :-*
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The Vics do really seem to be a quality product. ;-T
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Actually Polaris snowmobiles are pretty highly regarded as are their 4 wheelers . The Victory brand , despite a slow start , is also a critical success , modern , and reliable . OK , so the styling is a matter of taste , but so are Hondas and Triumphs .
Dusty
Ok, so we agree that they have been around 1954 making highly regarded skidoo copies and are now looking into American motorcycle shopper buying powers ;D
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:+1
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Wait a minute Bombardier is Canadian , and French Canadian at that , is this all a conspiracy ?
Dusty
:BEER:
(http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/w477/kidneb51/DSC01059_zps59b44111.jpg) (http://s1077.photobucket.com/user/kidneb51/media/DSC01059_zps59b44111.jpg.html)
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Polaris also make a boffo side by side ATV line called the Ranger that is highly regarded. ;-T
The series of video teasers for the new Indian had a portion that showed a lot of research into what makes an Indian special.
They showed that a great deal of effort went into researching the early Indian features, and even though it is not the same company, that could be the advertising angle they highlight in their search for historic creds.
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The company I work for recently, 3 years ago, bought out a competitor company and we now “market” the models they originally produced, with some minor engineered improvements. We own the original product patents /designs, rights to the name, and all that goes along with it.
Does that make us like Polaris with Indian? Our Engineering and Production units researched the newly purchased products to determine what made them valuable to their loyal customers and we were determined to continue with those features. We added a few of our patented features to improve function, but we still call them by the original name, and market them as such. We shut down the facility in Indiana and moved all production down to Oklahoma. Note, this was during the recent recession and they were about to close their doors anyway, so it wasn’t like we were big bad corporate raiders buying up and shutting down competitors.
The question for me is… Does Polaris own the rights to the original designs along with the name? If so, they have what made up the “DNA” of the original Indian and could very well design that into the look and feel of the new bikes. And in my thinking, they do have the “original” Indian. How well they pull it off, keeping original and adding in modern, will be the tale of the tape. IMHO.
Darren
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I THINK the purchase back when Gilroy made it was trademark only.
That said, I'd be shocked if any original Indian patents are still relevant anyway.
But, again, I was LITERALLY making a point with the DNA comment, i.e. that companies are NOT families and there are no actual genetic traits binding them to their ancestors. As such they may change at whim, including ownership and/of direction. The "real" or "true" company or product is nothing more than a legal definition.
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Kev and Dusty, I get what you are saying, and if trademark only, yeah no "DNA" connection. But if Polaris engineering designs in the features that made Indian different from other bikes (same as a Guzzi feels different from a Harley or a Triumph) in motor and ride and appearance, then I feel they are doing justice to the heritage or DNA or what ever you want to call it. If they don't, and the bike turns out to come across like a UJM for instance, then I would agree it will be an Indian in name only and the heritage marketing will be all BS hype. I do hope that is not the case and wish them much success.
My $.02 and probably not worth that much.
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Kev and Dusty, I get what you are saying, and if trademark only, yeah no "DNA" connection. But if Polaris engineering designs in the features that made Indian different from other bikes (same as a Guzzi feels different from a Harley or a Triumph) in motor and ride and appearance, then I feel they are doing justice to the heritage or DNA or what ever you want to call it. If they don't, and the bike turns out to come across like a UJM for instance, then I would agree it will be an Indian in name only and the heritage marketing will be all BS hype. I do hope that is not the case and wish them much success.
My $.02 and probably not worth that much.
:+1 That is what I think too. Vive le choix! But, I doubt the new chief will reach my palette of taste anyway since I don't like cruisers, only exception being the new Cali 1400.
Anyway, good luck to Indian/Polaris may they eat a significant part of the Motor Co's market for a change!
Just my $0.01 and certainly less than that...
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My first "road" bike I learned to ride was a 1946 dark blue Indian Chief my father owned. Three speed suicide shift on the left side, 74 cubic inch motor. Above about 65 it was rough riding. Do I want to drop $18,999 on a bike with 80 CI motor and 3 speed tranny? No, not unless it was an original IC. What is the soul/DNA of the Indian? It is the look and sound, both which Polaris can replicate, and improve upon. Would people actually buy a bike with suicide shift, and manual spark advance on the bars? No, I think not. If Polaris is going to sell profitable amounts of Indians, it needs to be at Victory levels of quality, and prices. I have full confidence that Polaris will do that. Yes, choice is coming to American made bikes, you will have the choice to buy one or not. I for one will in a few years. I never buy the first year model of any product new. Used is a different story. So as for DNA, an elephant has mastodon DNA, but do I really want a mastodon when all I want to do is lift logs and ride it to hunt tigers?
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Would people actually buy a bike with suicide shift, and manual spark advance on the bars? No, I think not.
That'd make things kind of fun!
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That'd make things kind of fun!
The real fun is the left hand throttle! :o Back off of the gas by reflex and you keep going the same speed but with backfiring (just retarded the spark) ??? ???
A friend blew off his muffler that way.
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The real fun is the left hand throttle! :o Back off of the gas by reflex and you keep going the same speed but with backfiring (just retarded the spark) ??? ???
A friend blew off his muffler that way.
Yes, but it will get those cages off your arse when you blow fire back at them with a loud report!! ~; :D
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Kev and Dusty, I get what you are saying, and if trademark only, yeah no "DNA" connection.
No seriously, DNA was NOT a metaphor. I was quite literally saying direct lineage is not relevant with a company, legalities and arguably the earned reputation based on current product is all that matters.
I don't care one lick that it is a new company. Not even a tiny bit.
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In another 100yrs., I wonder if the bowling ball Harley's (AMF) won't be the "holy grail" bikes for H-D collectors :BEER:
Makes ya go Hmmmmmmm
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I doubt that any of the bowling ball Hardleys will still exist in 100 years! Or is that want it takes to be a holy grail?
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In another 100yrs., I wonder if the bowling ball Harley's (AMF) won't be the "holy grail" bikes for H-D collectors :BEER:
Makes ya go Hmmmmmmm
I wonder if the "Boat tail Harleys" will be the next '63 split window vette...
O.K., I'll quit my wondering wandering ::)
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(http://i1361.photobucket.com/albums/r676/lyongusa/photo3_zps47544a5c.jpg)
.
That's an old stock CMC Indian. The ones with the HD 4-speed frame and S&S Evo engine.
I don't think so. I think this is one of the "Kings Mountain" era Indians, built in North Carolina by Stellican Limited, the private equity firm that bough the rights to Indian in 2006, and sold them to Polaris in 2011. In between, Stellican developed manufacturing facilities, a new chassis, and a new engine. (It is not an S&S motor.) The Kings Mountain facility was closed by Polaris to consolidate assembly at the Victory plant in Spirit Lake, IA, but there is an engine facility in Wisconsin that may still be making the PowerPlus 105 for the current models. Stellican was in it simply to revive the moribund brand, restore some of its value, and sell it off. That's what they do. (Prior to Indian, the did the same thing with Chris-Craft.) Mission accomplished.
The "Kings Mountain" Indians are still available, BTW -- look here:
http://www.indianmotorcycle.com/en-us/chief/chief-vintage-le/pages/overview.aspx
Regarding the engine used:
Question:
What kind of powertrain do the new Indians use? Do you build it yourself or buy it off the shelf?
Answer:
The new Chief features a state-of-the-art, electronically fuel-injected 105 ci PowerPlus v-twin engine that fully upholds Indian's legendary reputation for power and durability. Engineered and developed by Indian Motorcycle, all engines are manufactured at our Osceola, WI facility.
http://www.indianmotorcycle.com/en-us/resources-help/Pages/frequently-asked-questions.aspx
* * *
Regarding the debate about "true" brands versus revived brands, I think there is something to be said for continuous manufacturing operation(s) in the same location(s), even where a company has not been under continuous ownership or management. People have finite lives; companies are bought and sold all the time, but corporations have an infinite lifespan, so a company old enough to have a significant heritage is never going to be able to show the same management throughout its existence, and most are not going to be able to show the same continuous ownership. However, with continuous operation in an historic location, comes a sense of heritage and history that adds a patina to the brand. You get generations of factory workers who are loyal to the brand. It also probably helps current management stay true to the brand. Not that an all-new operation that simply holds the trademark and patent rights can't pull this off (witness Triumph), but it certainly helps.
Moto Guzzi is a prime example of this. If KevM is correct that it doesn't matter whether an iconic motorcycle brand has been in continuous operation in the same location for generations, or has been passed around from owner to owner, bounced around the country, had it's name applied to everything from mopeds to Harley clones, and, in general, been treated like a ten dollar whore, then Piaggio Group should have shut down the Moto Guzzi plant at Mandello del Lario years ago.
Okay, show of hands: How many here think it wouldn't matter to the direction or future of the Moto Guzzi brand if Mandello was shuttered years ago, and production was consolidated with the Aprilia line in Noale? Nobody? What, you don't want a "badge-engineered" Shiver for the next Breva? I thought so. See, "continuous operation" does matter.
From an economic standpoint, it probably made more sense for Piaggio Group to close the Mandello del Lario facility, and consolidate assembly in Noale. Even with upgrades, there are aspects of the facility and its location that make it a poor choice for modern motorcycle manufacturing. However, Piaggio did not close Mandello; they instead chose to invest in upgrading the historic Moto Guzzi plant. Why would a public company, whose sole mission is to make a profit for its investors, spend more money upgrading an outmoded facility than its is worth on paper? I believe the answer is because Piaggio management concluded (rightly, IMO) that the Moto Guzzi brand and Mandello del Lario are so closely associated that the old factory's advantages from an inspirational standpoint for management, the engineers and design staff, and the assembly workers, as well as its marketing advantages and other "intangibles," outweighs its economic disadvantages.
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(http://i1361.photobucket.com/albums/r676/lyongusa/photo3_zps47544a5c.jpg)
I don't think so. I think this is one of the "Kings Mountain" era Indians, built in North Carolina by Stellican Limited, the private equity firm that bough the rights to Indian in 2006, and sold them to Polaris in 2011. In between, Stellican developed manufacturing facilities, a new chassis, and a new engine. (It is not an S&S motor.) The Kings Mountain facility was closed by Polaris to consolidate assembly at the Victory plant in Spirit Lake, IA, but there is an engine facility in Wisconsin that may still be making the PowerPlus 105 for the current models. Stellican was in it simply to revive the moribund brand, restore some of its value, and sell it off. That's what they do. (Prior to Indian, the did the same thing with Chris-Craft.) Mission accomplished.
The "Kings Mountain" Indians are still available, BTW -- look here:
http://www.indianmotorcycle.com/en-us/chief/chief-vintage-le/pages/overview.aspx
Regarding the engine used:
Question:
What kind of powertrain do the new Indians use? Do you build it yourself or buy it off the shelf?
Answer:
The new Chief features a state-of-the-art, electronically fuel-injected 105 ci PowerPlus v-twin engine that fully upholds Indian's legendary reputation for power and durability. Engineered and developed by Indian Motorcycle, all engines are manufactured at our Osceola, WI facility.
http://www.indianmotorcycle.com/en-us/resources-help/Pages/frequently-asked-questions.aspx
Regarding the debate about "true" brands versus revived brands, I think there is something to be said for continuous manufacturing operation(s) in the same location(s), even where a company has not been under continuous ownership or management. People have finite lives; companies are bought and sold all the time, but corporations have an infinite lifespan, so a company old enough to have a significant heritage is never going to be able to show the same management throughout its existence, and most are not going to be able to show the same continuous ownership. However, with continuous operation in an historic location, comes a sense of heritage and history that adds a patina to the brand. You get generations of factory workers who are loyal to the brand. It also probably helps current management stay true to the brand. Not that an all-new operation that simply holds the trademark and patent rights can't pull this off (witness Triumph), but it certainly helps.
Moto Guzzi is a prime example of this. If KevM is correct that it doesn't matter whether an iconic motorcycle brand has been in continuous operation in the same location for generations, or has been passes around from owner to owner, bounced around the country, had it's name applied to everything from mopeds to Harley clones, and, in general, been treated like a ten dollar whore, then Piaggio Group should have shut down the Moto Guzzi plant at Mandello del Lario years ago.
Okay, show of hands: How many here think it wouldn't matter to the direction or future of the Moto Guzzi brand if Mandello was shuttered years ago, and production was consolidated with the Aprilia line in Noale? Nobody? What, you don't want a "badge-engineered" Shiver for the next Breva? I thought so. See, "continuous operation" does matter.
From an economic standpoint, it probably made more sense for Piaggio Group to close the Mandello del Lario facility, and consolidate assembly in Noale. Even with upgrades, there are aspects of the facility and its location that make it a poor choice for modern motorcycle manufacturing. However, Piaggio did not close Mandello; they instead chose to invest in upgrading the historic Moto Guzzi plant. Why would a public company, whose sole mission is to make a profit for its investors, spend more money upgrading an outmoded facility than its is worth on paper? I believe the answer is because Piaggio management concluded (rightly, IMO) that the Moto Guzzi brand and Mandello del Lario are so closely associated that the old factory's advantages from an inspirational standpoint for management, the engineers and design staff, and the assembly workers, as well as its marketing advantages and other "intangibles," outweighs its economic disadvantages.
Thanks-that was precisely my point. Obviously a company like Polaris did some heavy marketing research to commit to a huge project like the Indian. They designed a product that "might have been what a modern day Indian would look like if the original company were still in business". Hopefully for them, there are enough buyers out there to buy into that concept.
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Youcan makes some good points, but they are largely emotional ones.
Don't get me wrong, I feel all warm and fuzzy about continuity and Mandello.
BUT it's the PRODUCT that matters.
For instance, sales of the Triumph Bonnies have not really suffered from the factory move to Thailand.
And don't fall for the red herring rebadged Aprilia argument as that changes the fundamental product and brand identity going away from my point.
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If Indian had never gone out of business, do you think they would be making a bike that looked just like what they sold in the 40's and 50's? I seriously doubt it. I think it's possible to keep the spirit of an Indian without having to make a copy with a modern motor although it would require more skill and probably more risk.
I expect the copies will be reliable with Polaris backing, but not something I would be interested in. The ridiculously long wheelbase, art deco fenders, and lighted ornament are cool to see on an antique motorcycle, but seem a little garish on a modern machine if you ask me. Yeah. I know you didn't.
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Kev, I don't disagree, but I think you are under-estimating the extent to which that "warm and fuzzy" feeling informs the decisions of management as to how to direct the brand, inspires engineers and designers as to what to come up with next for the brand, and consumers, such as yourself, as to how they feel about the brand AND its products.
My point about Aprilia clones is that if Piaggio management had consolidated Moto Guzzi with Aprilia, so that Moto Guzzi motorcycles were simply a brand made by Aprilia, eventually we would see Aprilia clones with Moto Guzzi badges. (It's not like that kind of thing has never happened before; DeThomaso tried to sell Benellis badged as Moto Guzzis.)
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youcanrunnaked's post reminds me of the discussions we had in marketing class. Sure do miss those discussions. They had substance and meaning.
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Kev, I don't disagree, but I think you are under-estimating the extent to which that "warm and fuzzy" feeling informs the decisions of management as to how to direct the brand, inspires engineers and designers as to what to come up with next for the brand, and consumers, such as yourself, as to how they feel about the brand AND its products.
You're right, emotion is surely a factor. To completely dismiss it runs the risk of alienating the customer through the wrong product or brand image.
But I'm suggesting most of that can be accomplished through careful product development and, to come full loop on this thread, marketing.
Indian/Polaris seems to be paying careful attention to both.
I remain cautiously optimistic. :)
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In another 100yrs., I wonder if the bowling ball Harley's (AMF) won't be the "holy grail" bikes for H-D collectors :BEER:
Makes ya go Hmmmmmmm
naw..........
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In another 100yrs., I wonder if the bowling ball Harley's (AMF) won't be the "holy grail" bikes for H-D collectors :BEER:
Makes ya go Hmmmmmmm
Bought new, 35years, 110k miles, original motor, never broke down on me ever
(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc462/leafman60/Bike%20Pics/IMG_1777.jpg) (http://s1213.photobucket.com/user/leafman60/media/Bike%20Pics/IMG_1777.jpg.html)
(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc462/leafman60/Bike%20Pics/IMG_1775.jpg) (http://s1213.photobucket.com/user/leafman60/media/Bike%20Pics/IMG_1775.jpg.html)
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Well who woulda thunk those little 100 cc Clymer Indians would be worth anything ? Have you priced one lately .
Dusty
Hey! I had one of those! Gave it to my best friend and that bonehead sent it over a cliff as some sort of
"rite of passage" crapola upon completing college.
I'm still pissed!
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Bought new, 35years, 110k miles, original motor, never broke down on me ever
(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc462/leafman60/Bike%20Pics/IMG_1777.jpg) (http://s1213.photobucket.com/user/leafman60/media/Bike%20Pics/IMG_1777.jpg.html)
(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc462/leafman60/Bike%20Pics/IMG_1775.jpg) (http://s1213.photobucket.com/user/leafman60/media/Bike%20Pics/IMG_1775.jpg.html)
Damn! That's cool! ;-T
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Bought new, 35years, 110k miles, original motor, never broke down on me ever
(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc462/leafman60/Bike%20Pics/IMG_1777.jpg) (http://s1213.photobucket.com/user/leafman60/media/Bike%20Pics/IMG_1777.jpg.html)
Love it!
P.S. ~What's that strange looking appendage below the battery ? 8)
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Bought new, 35years, 110k miles, original motor, never broke down on me ever
(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc462/leafman60/Bike%20Pics/IMG_1777.jpg) (http://s1213.photobucket.com/user/leafman60/media/Bike%20Pics/IMG_1777.jpg.html)
(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc462/leafman60/Bike%20Pics/IMG_1775.jpg) (http://s1213.photobucket.com/user/leafman60/media/Bike%20Pics/IMG_1775.jpg.html)
Looks just my 77, first and only bike I bought new, wish I had never sold it.
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Here's a question from someone who's only seen an Indian. I once worked with a guy that would show up in the morning on one. So aside from the art deco fenders, long wheelbase, the general funkiness of having manual spark advance and a shift lever, what was it about Indians that made them what they are? I have heard they had a long stroke, hence loads of torque---is that true? What was it about how they performed that made them so sought after?
Matt
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Coming home to Hotlanta from the Nationals last year, came upon this beautiful dealership...
http://forum.guzzitech.com/forum/download.html?id=5458&t=1
http://forum.guzzitech.com/forum/download.html?id=5457&t=1
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Back in the day most motorcyclists were either Indian guys or Harley guys - mostly to do with racing and brand promotion. They were both flatheads, big, heavy, and similar in performance - and neither had a big advantage over the other. That is, until Harley came out with the OHV. Indian stayed with the flathead and eventually got left in the dust.
I can still remember an Indian racing at Laconia - tank shift, rigid frame - trying to stay with with the Brits and Harleys. Going into the corners it would smoke and hop around like a rabbit - a dinosaur among cheetahs. ;D ;D
Indian went bankrupt because they didn't stay up with technology - the '53 Chief wasn't all that much different from the '39 Chief. Their attempt at the Brit bike market - the Warrior and Arrow were poorly engineered and lasted only a few years. Harry Sucher's book, The Iron Redskin gives a good history of Indian and reasons for it's demise. ;-T
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If Indian had never gone out of business, do you think they would be making a bike that looked just like what they sold in the 40's and 50's?I seriously doubt it.
Good point!
I think it's possible to keep the spirit of an Indian without having to make a copy with a modern motor although it would require more skill and probably more risk.
I expect the copies will be reliable with Polaris backing, but not something I would be interested in. The ridiculously long wheelbase, art deco fenders, and lighted ornament are cool to see on an antique motorcycle, but seem a little garish on a modern machine if you ask me. Yeah. I know you didn't.
I came across these two motorbikes on my way home from my Guzzi garage last week. Swedish registered ,-and the pilots, that looked like father and son,were asking a pedestrian for the way through the town of Aarhus. As one can see, they were participating in the 100 years anniversary of the "Skagenløbet"
- The "Skagen Rally" - http://guzzitech.dk/skagen-rally/ .
I think,-like others have mentioned earlier in this thread, that it would be interesting if Polaris , in their hunt of the true Indian Spirit, focused on the Scout, and decided to produce an American motorcycle with a more "sportmanlike" character. And of course restrain from excessive use of chrome and bling bling, and try to teach the market, and show it that a motorcycle can be even more exclusive without.
The "Indian community" has always been alive and strong in Sweden,- and if I were to give Polaris an advise, it would be to start working on a new Scout shortly after the launching of the Chief.
And if they are brave enough,- contact the right european designers for inspiring inputs. Not English,- not German,- but Swedish ones ! Just a feeling I have.
OK,- have a nice day then !
(yeah- thats my bicycle to the right in the picture,- I am a cyclist after all)
(http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/w477/kidneb51/DSC01160_zpsdfeee81c.jpg) (http://s1077.photobucket.com/user/kidneb51/media/DSC01160_zpsdfeee81c.jpg.html)
(http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/w477/kidneb51/DSC01162_zpsede430e1.jpg) (http://s1077.photobucket.com/user/kidneb51/media/DSC01162_zpsede430e1.jpg.html)
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In another 100yrs., I wonder if the bowling ball Harley's (AMF) won't be the "holy grail" bikes for H-D collectors :BEER:
Makes ya go Hmmmmmmm
They will and it won't take 100 years.
In the early '70s, it seemed like everybody had or knew someone with a 45" for sale cheap, usually less than $500. Pans could be had for a little bit more. They were everywhere, and I could've filled a barn with them. Nobody wanted them, they were slow, and antiquated. Try to find one now for less than $12k.
Shovels are going through the same thing now. Prices are dirt cheap and they carry a rep, wrongfully in my experience, of being terrible bikes. If I had the room, I'd stock up on them now.
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(http://i1361.photobucket.com/albums/r676/lyongusa/photo3_zps47544a5c.jpg)
I don't think so. I think this is one of the "Kings Mountain" era Indians, built in North Carolina by Stellican Limited, the private equity firm that bough the rights to Indian in 2006, and sold them to Polaris in 2011. In between, Stellican developed manufacturing facilities, a new chassis, and a new engine. (It is not an S&S motor.) The Kings Mountain facility was closed by Polaris to consolidate assembly at the Victory plant in Spirit Lake, IA, but there is an engine facility in Wisconsin that may still be making the PowerPlus 105 for the current models. Stellican was in it simply to revive the moribund brand, restore some of its value, and sell it off. That's what they do. (Prior to Indian, the did the same thing with Chris-Craft.) Mission accomplished.
The "Kings Mountain" Indians are still available, BTW -- look here:
http://www.indianmotorcycle.com/en-us/chief/chief-vintage-le/pages/overview.aspx
Regarding the engine used:
Question:
What kind of powertrain do the new Indians use? Do you build it yourself or buy it off the shelf?
Answer:
The new Chief features a state-of-the-art, electronically fuel-injected 105 ci PowerPlus v-twin engine that fully upholds Indian's legendary reputation for power and durability. Engineered and developed by Indian Motorcycle, all engines are manufactured at our Osceola, WI facility.
http://www.indianmotorcycle.com/en-us/resources-help/Pages/frequently-asked-questions.aspx
* * *
Regarding the debate about "true" brands versus revived brands, I think there is something to be said for continuous manufacturing operation(s) in the same location(s), even where a company has not been under continuous ownership or management. People have finite lives; companies are bought and sold all the time, but corporations have an infinite lifespan, so a company old enough to have a significant heritage is never going to be able to show the same management throughout its existence, and most are not going to be able to show the same continuous ownership. However, with continuous operation in an historic location, comes a sense of heritage and history that adds a patina to the brand. You get generations of factory workers who are loyal to the brand. It also probably helps current management stay true to the brand. Not that an all-new operation that simply holds the trademark and patent rights can't pull this off (witness Triumph), but it certainly helps.
Moto Guzzi is a prime example of this. If KevM is correct that it doesn't matter whether an iconic motorcycle brand has been in continuous operation in the same location for generations, or has been passed around from owner to owner, bounced around the country, had it's name applied to everything from mopeds to Harley clones, and, in general, been treated like a ten dollar whore, then Piaggio Group should have shut down the Moto Guzzi plant at Mandello del Lario years ago.
Okay, show of hands: How many here think it wouldn't matter to the direction or future of the Moto Guzzi brand if Mandello was shuttered years ago, and production was consolidated with the Aprilia line in Noale? Nobody? What, you don't want a "badge-engineered" Shiver for the next Breva? I thought so. See, "continuous operation" does matter.
From an economic standpoint, it probably made more sense for Piaggio Group to close the Mandello del Lario facility, and consolidate assembly in Noale. Even with upgrades, there are aspects of the facility and its location that make it a poor choice for modern motorcycle manufacturing. However, Piaggio did not close Mandello; they instead chose to invest in upgrading the historic Moto Guzzi plant. Why would a public company, whose sole mission is to make a profit for its investors, spend more money upgrading an outmoded facility than its is worth on paper? I believe the answer is because Piaggio management concluded (rightly, IMO) that the Moto Guzzi brand and Mandello del Lario are so closely associated that the old factory's advantages from an inspirational standpoint for management, the engineers and design staff, and the assembly workers, as well as its marketing advantages and other "intangibles," outweighs its economic disadvantages.
;-T
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Tazio , you need to post more . I am sending a PM .
Dusty
Got it
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Bought new, 35years, 110k miles, original motor, never broke down on me ever
(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc462/leafman60/Bike%20Pics/IMG_1777.jpg) (http://s1213.photobucket.com/user/leafman60/media/Bike%20Pics/IMG_1777.jpg.html)
(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc462/leafman60/Bike%20Pics/IMG_1775.jpg) (http://s1213.photobucket.com/user/leafman60/media/Bike%20Pics/IMG_1775.jpg.html)
Gad-zooks. Does that make me long for my '75 Super Glide. I was in the midst of negotiating a purchase of the then new FXRS when the Glide got pinched. Like yours, my AMFer was flawless for my brother and then me though doubtless the son of a whore who stole it woulda pated it out to other "10%ers".
No problem with the A M-Fers for my part other than the expressions of pity and indulgence on the part of the true-believers. Geeze, did that get tiresome.
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Back in the day most motorcyclists were either Indian guys or Harley guys - mostly to do with racing and brand promotion. They were both flatheads, big, heavy, and similar in performance - and neither had a big advantage over the other. That is, until Harley came out with the OHV. Indian stayed with the flathead and eventually got left in the dust.
I can still remember an Indian racing at Laconia - tank shift, rigid frame - trying to stay with with the Brits and Harleys. Going into the corners it would smoke and hop around like a rabbit - a dinosaur among cheetahs. ;D ;D
Indian went bankrupt because they didn't stay up with technology - the '53 Chief wasn't all that much different from the '39 Chief. Their attempt at the Brit bike market - the Warrior and Arrow were poorly engineered and lasted only a few years. Harry Sucher's book, The Iron Redskin gives a good history of Indian and reasons for it's demise. ;-T
An attempt was made to breathe new life into the Chief when Phil Irving installed Vincent Rapide engine an Indian frame in 1949, creating the Vindian. Had this gone into production maybe both Indian and Vincent would've survived, at least a little longer.
Here's a picture my father took, at Laconia in 1957, of someone's homemade Vindian. Looks like this one has a Black Shadow engine, speedometer and Vincent front brakes.
(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p68/sprintsc/Laconia/Laconia14.jpg)
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An attempt was made to breathe new life into the Chief when Phil Irving installed Vincent Rapide engine an Indian frame in 1949, creating the Vindian. Had this gone into production maybe both Indian and Vincent would've survived, at least a little longer.
Here's a picture my father took, at Laconia in 1957, of someone's homemade Vindian. Looks like this one has a Black Shadow engine, speedometer and Vincent front brakes.
(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p68/sprintsc/Laconia/Laconia14.jpg)
Funny, when Indian did that experiment they used a plunger Warrior frame which might have been marginally better than the Vincent frame. They both may have lasted a little longer but both managements were in their death throes.
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Or lack thereof .
Dusty
;D ;D ;D
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Much angst about the so called letting go of the bars with one hand to shift. No worse than so many riders I have seen let go to check the cell phone or reset some GPS device.
The owner/rider had the option to set up his/her Chief with right or left throttle and right or left hand shift. Of course the shift was opposite the throttle. Factory parts were available for such preferences.
You don't have to shift to often, in fact it wasn't to hard to start out in third gear. When I was riding my 44 in the mid 70s I would switch back and forth between my right hand shift Indian to right foot shift Triumphs and bach to left shift Jap bikes all the time. I almost never forgot which apendage needed to do what.
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Bring back the Drifter! ;-T
:beat_horse
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At least the entry form (http://www.indianmotorcycle.com/en-us/contest/Pages/win-2014-indian-chief-entry.aspx).
Looks like Indian's having a sweepstake and giving away a new Chief.
Its a good way for the marketing boys to get your info, I guess.
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That should be good for a lot of spammy returns on your effort.
. . . and what's up with the 48-state limit? American iron denied to americans. >:(
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I'm feeling lucky!
;-T
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I'd enter, but I think I'm disqualified - at least, that's what the showroom construction would indicate.
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The video's a little smarmy with all the dramatic orchestra stuff, but I think it's a heck of a custom.
http://www.indianmotorcycle.com/en-us/riders/video/munro-documentary?WT.ac=IND-enus-camp-home-munro-documentary
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I guess nobody's noticed Todd Eagan is piloting the Burt Munro Special at Boneville. :bow
The motor sounds awesome and I like the specs. If they offer a model without the needless electronics that the manufacturers are dumping on the new bikes, I'm gonna have me one.
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Fun video.
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http://www.indianmotorcycle.com/en-us/riders/video/munro-documentary?WT.ac=IND-enus-camp-home-munro-documentary
So, i was cruising around trying to get a first look of the new Indian. They have a GREAT website up. I had heard of a Munro tribute, but you really need to see this. They did a mini film of the beast underway. It looks and sounds- as they say here- PISSAH! Check out the mini film as well as the "making of". Great stuff. The big surprise- I saw a Stelvio in one shot. And who was the pilot of the manned missle? Todd Eagan! How cool is that?
I'm very excited to see their new bike and wish Indian all the best. I'm sure a huge investment was made to bring back one of the pillars of our sport.
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In that last shot you can see the rear of the bike wiggling around as he's running. :D Nice video. Good luck!!
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Just read in a Cycle World ad that we can see the all-new Indian Chief Monday August 5th at 9 pm EDT on the History channel.
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Hey, it's been almost half an hour since the 8PM unveiling Sturgis time. Why can't we see it now? ...huh?, ...huh?, ...huh?
MooooMMMMM! Can we stay up late to see the new Indian??
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Reveal it to me .... please ...... reveal it to me! Cruiser, chrome .... good stuff .... please, let me see the new cruiser. I must see it .... I must see it ....
Oh, excuse me, let me go pack my 1200 Sport for a multi-day ride. That's what I meant to say.
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Boffo! I can barely keep it in my pants.
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/LuckyOldIndianad_zps5387ff95.jpg)
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Sheesh, they're on the website, y'know..
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Sheesh, they're on the website, y'know..
They are!!!
http://www.indianmotorcycle.com/en-us/stories/2014-motorcycle-launch-video (http://www.indianmotorcycle.com/en-us/stories/2014-motorcycle-launch-video)
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My wife wants a Vintage-bad!
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and if I were to give Polaris an advise, it would be to start working on a new Scout shortly after the launching of the Chief.
Patience Grasshopper, Polaris does know how to do it big time and you can be sure the Scout is way beyond a concept on paper.. they have it all ready to build if not already doing so. I bet you'll be able to get one next spring..
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They are!!!
http://www.indianmotorcycle.com/en-us/stories/2014-motorcycle-launch-video (http://www.indianmotorcycle.com/en-us/stories/2014-motorcycle-launch-video)
COOL!
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They are!!!
http://www.indianmotorcycle.com/en-us/stories/2014-motorcycle-launch-video (http://www.indianmotorcycle.com/en-us/stories/2014-motorcycle-launch-video)
;-T
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I am thoroughly impressed with their marketing splash. The videos are perfect. Very well done, and the bikes really look great. I wish them success! ;-T
But, um, I'd like to see one of those bikes heeled over in a curve...
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.......... well, this is quite the v twin.
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But, um, I'd like to see one of those bikes heeled over in a curve...
:+1
I'd like to hear the bike rolling down the road
Edit: Oops! Looks like the site has gone down. Too many hits at once!
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The nearest dealer to Denver is in Lincoln, NE, about 500 miles away. I expect that to change soon.
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A cruiser, a Road King competitor, and a Street Glide competitor.
Not bad.
All have ABS, keyless ignition, and I think 6-speeds, and displays with trip computers/ambient temp gauges/tachometers etc.
The Chieftain (hard bags) has some nice tech, including a power adjustable windshield, LED driving lights, remote locking saddlebags, Bluetooth capable audio system. Not bad!
I'd like the Vintage (RK) competitor along with the hard bags and mag wheels of the Chieftain.
I'll be watching the brand with interest
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Compared to the Cali 1400, it is 8 inches longer (!), 75 lbs heavier, but has a narrower rear tire.
Maybe whales like this will make the Guzzi seem more reasonably sized.
Moto
P.S. Still looking forward to riding the Cali.
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Looks promising. :) Nice line up of bikes. I bet this is hard to watch for those dealers/ investors who took a chance on the last incarnation of Indian, and lost their shirts.
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I'm not really digging the headlight shroud. The "normal" tail light is nice. Bet one would look good on a Cal 14. 5.5 gallon fuel tank. Wish the Cal 14 had as much.
It's still got the "Heritage Classic" type of profile. Not really my thing.
At the price, I think they'll sell a shed-load of them.
I'd like to see a stripped down, blacked out "Scout".
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First time I've this. Been waiting a long time.
Sigh.
The new Indian is first-class quality, first-class engineering and, I'm sure, first-class performance for an American V-Twin. Pricing is very competitive too.
I genuinely hope they are successful with it and the new Indian will have trickle-down positive benefits for other manufacturers.
I just don't like the funky skirted (valanced) fenders. I didn't like those versions of the old Indians either. The fairing doesn't do anything for me either.
The H-D is a much, much prettier bike for me.
Hey, I was open-minded and held out the prospect that I may even have a new Indian ! Again, I give them credit and maybe the cruiser public will respond better than I am. It just isn't my cup of tea.
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Good luck, Indian.
The ball is in Harley's court, as they say. Competition is good. Maybe Harley will come out with something more exciting.
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I dig the Indian Vintage, the Chieftan looks like Victory guys designed the fairing, ugly.
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I'm not a big cruiser guy, but I'm pretty excited about this!
Glad a company like Polaris picked up the brand and is actually doing something with it!
;-T
:+1
Not my thing, but definitely a good looking bike. I think the motor is way better looking than the older one with the very tall, skinny looking cylinders. They definitely hit the ball out of the park with the styling one the new one.
Now, that Scout model that was being speculated could be interesting to me.
As others have said, it is good to see another American brand back on the market.
Also, as at least one other has said on this forum, now that Polaris has both Indian and Victory, it'd be nice to see Victory expand into other segments, such as sport tourers.
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Well at least they used modern technology; ABS, cruise control, etc. Otherwise it's about what I expected to see. The Chieftan fairing looks a bit too much like the Vision fairing and doesn't really fit with the rest of the bike in my eyes but to each his own. I can definitely see them stealing some of HD's market share. The classic name/style will make some of the sheep brave enough to buy one without worrying what their buddies will say. In reality I think that is what keeps many of them from looking at Victory or other alternatives.
Not my cup of tea but would like to take one for a ride some time.
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I would think more Victory sales would be lost vs Harley, to this.
I love the old Chief, and I like this. A Scout would be cool.
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I saw this today.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/joannmuller/2013/08/04/indian-motorcycle-unveils-three-new-models-in-bid-to-take-on-harley-davidson/?partner=yahootix
So far I haven't seen anything to suggest the Indian chrome will be shiner or the exhaust will make more noise. If they are going to take on Harley well, just saying. :BEER:
Matt
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I'm not really digging the headlight shroud. The "normal" tail light is nice. Bet one would look good on a Cal 14. 5.5 gallon fuel tank. Wish the Cal 14 had as much.
It's still got the "Heritage Classic" type of profile. Not really my thing.
At the price, I think they'll sell a shed-load of them.
I'd like to see a stripped down, blacked out "Scout".
I think they might be five years late for the nostalgia styling. Seems like the cruiser guys have moved on from the springer-style 1940s to the 50-60's bobber/hot rod metal flake and flat black look.
But the proof is in the riding. If it rides good, it might overcome styling. There maybe some geezers that will like it- niche market. Being Guzzi guys, we know niche markets.
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I like the deep valanced fenders on the new Indians. That to me speaks Indian. Having learned to ride on a 46 Chief, I guess that fender takes me back to a long distant youth and feeling of immortality. I would love to buy a new Chief, but will get the new 1400 Cali first, then the Indian Red Vintage after that. I'm 120 miles from Des Moines, I see a road trip in my very near future.
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What would you think if they came out soon with an adventure tourer called the Scout and a sport touring called the Brave or something similar. Then kept expanding to have a full line of MC genres. I would think Polaris would do it with either Indian or Victory, as two overlapping brands really don't make sense to me. Just thinking out load.
Darren
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I will take a Chief Vintage in blue please.
Seriously though I think Polaris has done exceptionally well in design and execution.
I look forward to the motorcycle press testing these bikes.
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I'd like to see one of those "Winged Wheels of America" fairings from Vetter from about 1997 on the Chieftain.
Only 50 were ever made.($1,300 :o)
I remember seeing one @ Earl Small's Harley Davidson ~Marietta, GA. on a display stand.
It had metal "wings".
A "Flairing", as it was advertized...
Anyone remember these?
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I will take a Chief Vintage in blue please.
That's my favorite! ;-T
I'd be tempted to two-tone the fenders.
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Yep that Vintage in blue is puuuurty! The leather seat and bags though could be a huge issue with time: wet and rot and mold here in the near tropics.
I am waiting to see an Indian dealer in Houston pop up. Might worth a ride to go gawk this fall.
I think HD is in for some competition here. That new 111 engine intrigues me: is it smoother than a big HD with the potato potato shake a shake a crap? Then again my goose barely stays upright when I sluice the throttle... :o
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Cycle World has an "impression" up, sounds like a together machine if it is your sort of thing.
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So, I'm wondering- they spent a huge amount of effort getting the vintage thing correct...but is that going to limit them? Is Indian always going to be synonymous with retro? It seems that any healthy company will want to spread its appeal a bit. Maybe that's what Victory is for- a brand name that draws in the "futuristic" cruiser set. I thought the comment about the Scout and Brave was interesting.
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Hope not. Glynn Kerr penned some really cool ideas in the July and August 2013 issues of Motorcycle Consumer News, including an XR-750 inspired roadster, a cruiser, a 90's-styled sport bike, a clubman, and a scrambler. They look REALLY good!
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LR , I think those are Enfirlds with the T-stroke motor .
Dusty
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Uh, yeah, you're right, my bad. But they are sharp!
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So, I'm wondering- they spent a huge amount of effort getting the vintage thing correct...but is that going to limit them? Is Indian always going to be synonymous with retro? It seems that any healthy company will want to spread its appeal a bit. Maybe that's what Victory is for- a brand name that draws in the "futuristic" cruiser set. I thought the comment about the Scout and Brave was interesting.
From the Cycle World article:
“I can really see the brand going anywhere and everywhere, and we want it to,” says Gray. “We don’t want the brand to pinned down into cruisers, baggers and touring like everyone probably expects. We want to go beyond that. That won’t be a quick process. It’s not going to happen next year, it’s going to happen over fives and tens of years.”
http://www.cycleworld.com/2013/08/03/2014-indian-chief-vintage-and-chieftain-bagger-first-ride-review-photos-specs/?src=SOC&dom=fb
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Eric, ;-T Me too .
Dusty.
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If Indian had never gone out of business, do you think they would be making a bike that looked just like what they sold in the 40's and 50's? I seriously doubt it. I think it's possible to keep the spirit of an Indian without having to make a copy with a modern motor although it would require more skill and probably more risk.
I expect the copies will be reliable with Polaris backing, but not something I would be interested in. The ridiculously long wheelbase, art deco fenders, and lighted ornament are cool to see on an antique motorcycle, but seem a little garish on a modern machine if you ask me. Yeah. I know you didn't.
I was watching the intro video. http://www.indianmotorcycle.com/en-us/stories/2014-motorcycle-launch-video
My thoughts were that they looked like completely modern replicas of a bygone era, no sense of nostalgia for me.
I live in a hundred year old house, in an even older town. It has a much different feel compared to new old construction that tries to look real.
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Nothing retro about a nice bike that serves the purpose you desire. Ageless, in fact.
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Nice try, but not impressed. Looks like a parts bin bike. More of the same. It probably is a nice bike, but looks cookie cutter too me. Just my opinion. I'm sure there are buyer waiting to own one. I would have been more impressed with a bike styled after something from the early 1900's and smaller displacement.
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Nice try, but not impressed. Looks like a parts bin bike.
Which parts appear to be from a catalog or parts bin?
From what I've seen, there are lots of proprietary details on this bike. (unlike the previous Indian attempt).
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Still not an Indian .Sorry
Dusty
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Boy , try to start a fight . ;D
Dusty
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One of the first test riders. He says he's from Ohio, but I detect a little Pittsburgh in his accent n'nat ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-tN6NrrEpk
Flashy Indian intro at Sturgis featuring Mike Wolfe, Don Emde, etc..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nicrmr_PXkA
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Still not an Indian .Sorry
Dusty
My Bonneville's not a "real" Triumph, either, but I ain't going back to the old ones... ;)
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Still not an Indian .Sorry
Dusty
Well, you know, from the standpoint of the Indian era (1901 - 1954) our Guzzis aren't real Guzzis either.
They've got two cylinders kind of poking up in the air, instead of one cylinder sticking forward and a big outside flywheel ...
And the company's been bought and sold and reorganized and fooled around with so many times, the oldest man in the world couldn't figure out what happened.
But I'm OK with it!
Lannis
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"PolarIndian , PolIndarian "
Wouldn't that make it an Eskimo?
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... Oh well ? ;) :BEER:
Albatross? :)
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Well we finally got a quick peek at the new Indians last night. Looks like they will have 3 models. They might give HD a pain in the wallet.
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http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=61876.0
;-T
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I bet we will see aftermarket fender options to replace those huge valanced fenders.
Back in the 50's, some Indian riders replaced them too.
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I bet we will see aftermarket fender options to replace those huge valanced fenders.
Back in the 50's, some Indian riders replaced them too.
Perhaps - but they exist now for a different reason (as an homage to the 50s) so I suspect most who buy this brand will want to keep them for that reason.
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I dunno about that. Several members of the target demographic that I know have already made comments about the bike being a little too funky with those big fenders and that weird fairing.
Time will tell. I hope they sell.
I have no interest. They're ugly to me. Sorry.
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I love the fenders, always have. Reminds me of a Delage Coupe. I really like the new Chieftain. No way those fenders would be removed from my bike.
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Nobody's commented on the "cast aluminum frame". That is a truly different approach, reminding me of the pressed-steel frames used by small go-to-work bikes in the 50s and 60s: NSU Max, Honda Dream, etc. I wonder if they saved any weight using it.
On a different note, it should make the bike easier to clean: always a consideration with the chrome crowd.
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Nobody's commented on the "cast aluminum frame". That is a truly different approach, reminding me of the pressed-steel frames used by small go-to-work bikes in the 50s and 60s: NSU Max, Honda Dream, etc. I wonder if they saved any weight using it.
On a different note, it should make the bike easier to clean: always a consideration with the chrome crowd.
If I'm not mistaken, Victory is already using aluminum frames, so Polaris has a history with the technology.
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From the Cycle World article:
“I can really see the brand going anywhere and everywhere, and we want it to,” says Gray. “We don’t want the brand to pinned down into cruisers, baggers and touring like everyone probably expects. We want to go beyond that. That won’t be a quick process. It’s not going to happen next year, it’s going to happen over fives and tens of years.”
http://www.cycleworld.com/2013/08/03/2014-indian-chief-vintage-and-chieftain-bagger-first-ride-review-photos-specs/?src=SOC&dom=fb
Two things:
1) The rake and trail are both less for the Chieftan over the other two. That is really significant.
2) The editor talks about how great they sound, but do you think they'd offer a sound clip? No.....
Regarding the fender debate. My thought when I saw them was, if there was anything that gave the Indian it's signature look, it would be the fenders. If I were designing the bike to relaunch the Indian line, I'd have taken steps to preserve that look. Change can come later (or aftermarket). For now, sell them on genuine Indian with all you've got.
To me they give the bike a weighty appearance that is nearly too much. Mind you, if someone gave me any of the three in any color tomorrow, I'd be quite happy to keep the bike. But I wonder if it might be possible to modernize the design in a way that preserves the Indian essence, the design cues. You can look at the design evolution of the Ford Mustang and still see that it's a Mustang (with some exceptions). I'd like to see the same evolution on the Indian.
One other thing, what's the point of having spoked wheels if you can hardly see the spokes?
(still waiting to hear the bike going down the road)
Matt
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I'd sure like to try one out and I just may take a test ride before summers end.
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1) The rake and trail are both less for the Chieftan over the other two. That is really significant.
That results in a shorter wheelbase as well.
The Chieftain also has an air ride suspension with more travel.
;-T
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Two things:
1) The rake and trail are both less for the Chieftan over the other two. That is really significant.
They've taken a lesson from HD and used the "reverse triple trees" (as seen on the Electraglides for the past 30-years) for the Chieftan. I believe this idea debuted on the Tour Glide.
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Thinking about it more - I originally said I'd like a Vintage with the bags and wheels from a Chieftain - but now I'm thinking I'd rather have a Chieftain with the windshield of the Vintage (but keep the LED driving lamps, assuming they're different from the lamps currently on the Vintage). ;-T
Honestly, this is a real serious contender for me when I buy another big road going bike in a couple of years.
Cali 1400 (Custom with windshield and HB C-Bows)
Indian Chieftain/Vintage
Vic Cross Roads 8-Ball
RK
Honestly not sure what I'd buy if I had to tomorrow.
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Thinking about it more - I originally said I'd like a Vintage with the bags and wheels from a Chieftain - but now I'm thinking I'd rather have a Chieftain with the windshield of the Vintage (but keep the LED driving lamps, assuming they're different from the lamps currently on the Vintage). ;-T
Honestly, this is a real serious contender for me when I buy another big road going bike in a couple of years.
Cali 1400 (Custom with windshield and HB C-Bows)
Indian Chieftain/Vintage
Vic Cross Roads 8-Ball
RK
Honestly not sure what I'd buy if I had to tomorrow.
Agreed. The Indian demo trailer is coming through the Phoenix area in October, and I signed up for a test ride. 8) I would like to get another Big Twin touring bike someday, and all the one Kevm mentioned are good, each in their own right. 8)
Would like to see the new Cali 1400 in person also, someday. The Victory's are a very good option if you don't want to go Milwaukee twin. The Road King are tried and proven and GREAT open highway bikes. :)
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There is one thing a find odd about the marketing strategy. Does any one else think its ironic that the same company that makes Victory is marketing Indian as "Choice is coming to American motorcycles?"
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There is one thing a find odd about the marketing strategy. Does any one else think its ironic that the same company that makes Victory is marketing Indian as "Choice is coming to American motorcycles?"
I guess it's just easier than saying "choice is coming for guys looking to buy traditionally styled American Motorcycles" and/or they're admitting that the target demographics for Indian is different than that for Victory.
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And better than "more choices are coming to..."
:BEER:
The marketing is aimed directly at the HD demographic. All of thier advertising is jabbing HD.
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MD first ride:
http://www.motorcycledaily.com/2013/08/2014-indian-chief-classic-vintage-and-chieftain-md-first-ride-part-1/ (http://www.motorcycledaily.com/2013/08/2014-indian-chief-classic-vintage-and-chieftain-md-first-ride-part-1/)
Polaris Industries has been frustrated, I am sure, with its efforts to grab market share from Harley-Davidson in the heavyweight cruiser category with its Victory brand. Although, to be fair to Victory, it has reached the number 2 position behind Harley in worldwide market share for the category. Nevertheless, for the American consumer in particular, branding is hugely important. If you don’t believe me, spend a few minutes doing a Google search of the “importance of branding”. Indian is the brand to take it to Harley in a way Victory never could, and the reaction of the Harley faithful here in Sturgis (more about that later) is proof positive.
Oh, and about the bikes. The new Chief models, including the Classic, Vintage and Chieftain, are extremely impressive on several levels. Polaris tasked its designers and engineers with building the best bike platform in the category.
<snip>
The largely aluminum, backbone frame feels stiffer than anything I can remember riding from the competition. Indeed, the Victory platform comes closest, but the Indian frame feels more solid beneath me, leading to more precise handling and accurate suspension movement (without having to deal with random flexing and rebound from a less stout, steel chassis).
(http://www.motorcycledaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/080613bottom.jpg)
Though I have to say, sounds like some of that is from press release copy - and either the MD writer or Polaris's engineers didn't bother testing a Cali 1400...
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There is one thing a find odd about the marketing strategy. Does any one else think its ironic that the same company that makes Victory is marketing Indian as "Choice is coming to American motorcycles?"
Not really, since I personally don't think the market for those would want to buy a Harley (or something traditional) really bothers to look around to other brands - espically overseas - when they are looking. It's not good or bad, but they want a HD and they want that look, that badge, and to say they have one. I don't see them getting that same kind of enjoyment or pleasure from anything else, unless it's a custom chopper. Granted that isn't the whole of the cruser market, but I'll guess that it's a pretty good chunk.
What I've said before is it will be interesting to see what happens with the Victory line now that some of their models and ideas may crossover. The more HD looking bikes may transfer over to Indian (which would be neat) and would leave Victory with more room to design and grow their more core markets or work on more designs that would more fit the victory brand. It could also open them up to a more sport or racing bike as now they wouldn't have to worry about being a full line of crusers. It will also be interesting to see (in the years ahead, Polaris doesn't seem to be in a hurry) what they will do with Indian, leave it as more vintage throwback bikes with a lot of cues to the past, or expand it a bit. In any event I see both lines as complementing eachother and now they can grow in their own directions and focus on what they are good at rather than having to be a bunch of different things.
I also see the Indian name as one that could compete with HD. There are more than a few people who already know the brand, and with their marketing I'm sure recognition is going to pick up pretty quick - plus if it's a good bike all the press that it will get. Which is another thing I've said before - Polaris already has the designers on staff to create/build/test a new engine, it's not their first time around with a bike, and they do pretty good work. So as they have done, all they needed to do (still a big project) was on ond hand focus on marketing (since there was no doubt on the product) and on the other create a great product. Now maybe they hired on more resources for this, maybe they had to put on the back burner some Victory or regular projects, but it was well within the scope of the company to do this - and market this. They also have a dealer network to tap, so they aren't starting from scratch there like some companies are. So again, more money and focus can go into marketing and getting a good campange going that could chip away from the HD image and/or start the foundation with one of their own.
Which goes back to the name. Motorcycles are a lot about image, and an expression about who you are. A lot of people feel that in order to be riders (not good or bad just the way it is) you need to have a HD. It's American made, has (what they brand as) a rich history, and they have been successful in getting that brand out to everything (accessories, clothing, etc), so you buy into the whole lifestyle. I think if done right and taken slowly Indian has a chance (finally, after so many years) to start this on their own, build that lifestyle, and gain a following OR at least be accepted into the HD/American bike lifestyle - so either choice is fine, rather than just one choice.
Again, without that history I'm not sure a company just start up and get into that market. HD has it pretty much cornered and their customers are more interested in the looks, branding, and lifestyle, than anything else. Which is why other cruser brands/bikes haven't done well. It's not that they are bad machines, they just aren't HD, and they are too mass produced to be choppers.
IMO
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I enjoy the picker shows most of the time. Anyway I checked on Texas Indian motorcycle dealers: none. The nearest is in Arkansas.
Contacting Polaris resulted in an email: "we are working hard to deploy some Texas dealers, stay tuned". Polaris has to build their dealer network and get enough bikes out there to satisfy curiosity.
They have definitely created a ripple in the Force though with some great advertising, etc. I checked into PII stock and could find very little information, but it is way up.
Texas is a huge cruiser market, and Indian would do very, very well here in my opinion. So, when a Houston dealer appears, it will be fun to go look at bikes, if they have any.
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Thinking about it more - I originally said I'd like a Vintage with the bags and wheels from a Chieftain - but now I'm thinking I'd rather have a Chieftain with the windshield of the Vintage (but keep the LED driving lamps, assuming they're different from the lamps currently on the Vintage). ;-T
Honestly, this is a real serious contender for me when I buy another big road going bike in a couple of years.
Cali 1400 (Custom with windshield and HB C-Bows)
Indian Chieftain/Vintage
Vic Cross Roads 8-Ball
RK
Honestly not sure what I'd buy if I had to tomorrow.
Lots of good stuff to choose from! Thought at 15k for a new Cali Custom or 23k for an Indian Chieftain, the $8,000 difference might play into it? Seems like a Cali Touring would be a closer comp for the Chieftain, only $4000 more for the American made bike there.
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Lots of good stuff to choose from! Thought at 15k for a new Cali Custom or 23k for an Indian Chieftain, the $8,000 difference might play into it? Seems like a Cali Touring would be a closer comp for the Chieftain, only $4000 more for the American made bike there.
Those are probably the two most diverse bikes in my current list of interest, which pretty much pivots around RK competitors and what they offer better/different than the RK.
But to me the RK still sets the standard with features like quick-detach bags and windshield, front and rear crash bars, passing lamps etc.
Still I'm not completely in love with the TC motors, and the RK is a little gaudy (do you REALLY need chrome fender trim and fender lights with everything else you've got?). So I'm looking at alternatives too.
The Indian motor with gear primary drive and likely smarter camshaft set-up than the RK is pretty attractive. Likewise the Guzzi mill has a whole lot to offer.
True the Cali Touring would be a better comparison - BUT I'm really not in love with the look of the bags on the touring (nor the fact that they aren't quick release). And the Custom offers other things I prefer over the Cali Touring from an ergonomics/chassis standpoint and from other amenities - color of the wheels and mirrors, shape of the bar, color/fit of the seat etc).
I normally would want the passing lamps of the touring - but the LED running lights on the Cali seem sufficient to me.
So starting with the Custom and adding HBs C-Bows/Stryker bags, and a crash bar, and topcase mount would probably be my preferred set-up. And adding all that to the $15k custom takes a couple of thousand out of the difference.
Now the Chieftain is a departure from my usual tastes for other reasons - but it might be just enough to attract me to try something with a fairing and not worry if the bags aren't quick-detach (I'm assuming they're not). And it certainly seems to be offering a number of other features that I probably won't be concerned about difference in price when the time comes (not to mention the RK is closer to $18-20k in the first place).
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How about a dealership that carried both Indian and Moto Guzzi? Seems like an interesting balance, foreign and domestic, meat & potatos along with spicy Italian.
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You got me with "passing lamps"? I thought the passing lamp was the finger trigger for momentary flashing of the high beam?
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You got me with "passing lamps"? I thought the passing lamp was the finger trigger for momentary flashing of the high beam?
No, that's the "flash to pass" function.
"Passing Lamps" is an old-time nomenclature. It refers to the chromed aux lamps you see on the HD touring bikes. Today, most people would call them "fog lights" or "driving lights".
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Sorry for the confusion...what rocker said.... ;-T
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How about a dealership that carried both Indian and Moto Guzzi? Seems like an interesting balance, foreign and domestic, meat & potatos along with spicy Italian.
It also seems like an excellent, fast-track plan for a billionaire to become a millionaire ..... :D
Jethro - "Uncle Jed, when I get done investin' yore money, you'll have a MILLION DOLLARS!"
Uncle Jed - "Son, I got fifty million now ..... "
Lannis
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It also seems like an excellent, fast-track plan for a billionaire to become a millionaire ..... :D
Jethro - "Uncle Jed, when I get done investin' yore money, you'll have a MILLION DOLLARS!"
Uncle Jed - "Son, I got fifty million now ..... "
Lannis
No doubt! Just because it works for restaurants doesn't mean it will work for bikes. Reminds me of, "How does a jazz musician end up with a million bucks?"
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My favorite Indian was , and still is , the four , something elegant about them , I rode a '37 model that belonged to my Ex's cousin , smooth and fairly powerful .
Wonder if Polaris has any plans regarding a four , they could call it " The Ace in honor of it's history .
Dusty
this.
I hoped Polaris would do a modern inline 4. I couldn't care less about another wrong way V twin. Sorry. I wish them well, but.....pfffft. ;D
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I do like the modern inline 4 idea, something similar to the Rocket III, plus one.
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Jas67
Wonder if Victory might build a motogp bike ? ::) Then things could get interesting . Or maybe Polaris nee Indian will build a competitor for the venerable XR 750 motor , stir up some real rivalry . Yea I know , HD hasn't built true XR750s in years , but still .
Dusty
Dusty, I don't see Victory building a motogp bike, but I think it would be cool if they did. They would certainly have to build a different configuration engine than the currently do (90 degree if it is a V-twin, but more likely a 90 degree V4).
Now, a modern take on the XR750 would be cool, though, HD tried that three times with the XLCR and the XR1000, and the XR1200. I still may buy an XR1200X if I find one for a reasonable price.
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Polaris knows how to build stuff... The Indian is long gone....Only it's name is left just like the newer Triumphs have nothing to so with vintage Triumphs.If Guzzi folded and was restarted by Polaris you think it would still be a unique machine ? I'm not saying remain stuck in past,just thoughts...
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Harley struggles with sporting models because of their narrow marketing focus. Triumph has proven a company can address nostalgia and sports successfully under one brand.
Keep in mind Sportsters being both smaller AND CHEAPER than BTs regularly sell between 40k-70k units per year, meaning more than Guzzi, Ducati, and classic Triumph models combined.
So there is likely a market for a smaller, cheaper standard bike under the Indian brand and hopefully a sportier one under them or Vic.
Rough Edge - to answer your question - if it was still a longitudinal crank, 90 degree v-twin, with shaft drive and similar styling, then YES, it would still be again.
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I do like the modern inline 4 idea, something similar to the Rocket III, plus one.
A modern version of one of these would be very cool!
(http://www.caimag.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/img_2194.jpg)
(http://www.vintagebike.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/1938-indian-four-757x570.jpg)
(http://www.autopictu.com/images/indian-four-05.jpg)
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Harley struggles with sporting models because of their narrow marketing focus. Triumph has proven a company can address nostalgia and sports successfully under one brand.
Keep in mind Sportsters being both smaller AND CHEAPER than BTs regularly sell between 40k-70k units per year, meaning more than Guzzi, Ducati, and classic Triumph models combined.
So there is likely a market for a smaller, cheaper standard bike under the Indian brand and hopefully a sportier one under them or Vic.
Rough Edge - to answer your question - if it was still a longitudinal crank, 90 degree v-twin, with shaft drive and similar styling, then YES, it would still be again.
If I were a betting man, I'd put money on the next product from Polaris/Indian being a "Scout" sized and intended to compete with Sportster.
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Harley has reaped the benefits of their dirt track success for years ,
I was talking to some guys who did dirt track racing back in the day, they said a "dirt track bike" was mostly what you had laying around that could be beat - at least for hobby people. There were a lot of harleys laying around, they took a beating, and thus a lot of them found their way to the track.
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FWIW my casual observation as a Harley rider of 2 decades is that MOST Harley riders I've spent time with don't know or give a crap about dirt track (or just about any other form of motorcycles racing). A few care about the Harley drags, maybe the highest percentage who do care about any form are probably NASCAR fans.
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Mostly true , but every dirt track event I have attended the parking lot was dominated by Harleys , and the stands were a moving advertisement for the brand .
At an amateur road race in East Texas several years back , the few HD riders in attendance were rooting for a Moto Morini because at least it had a V twin .
Dusty
Sure, that doesn't surprise me. But I suspect that's still a small percentage of their customers. But I guess a small percentage to Harley can be a large pool of possibilities to Vic, Indian, Guzzi or the like.
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Read the review article. Interesting line from the comments section.
"I look at the new Moto Guzzi California and it gets my blood stirring, the Indian doesn’t."
Bingo! Isn't that what it's all about?
To each their own.
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Kev M , I would just like to see a return of the old rivalry between Indian and HD regarding dirt track supremacy , thus my desire to see Polaris build a 750 CC
dirt track motor and challenge HD head on . Those jokers at Harley have been resting on their laurels far to long with the now antique XR 750 motor . ;D
Of course it won't happen , but at least some other brands are represented at the pro flat track level now . Wishful thinking on my part , flat track is the most exciting form of racing in the US , want to see it healthy again , like in the past when Honda took on HD , or in the days of old with the Brit brands .
Dusty
:+1
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A modern version of one of these would be very cool!
(http://www.caimag.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/img_2194.jpg)
That would be too cool for us vintage guys who do not have $75,000 for an old one
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So we are in agreement . A modern four and a dedicated 750 CC dirt track motor . Wonder if PolarIndian will be any more receptive to our ideas than the mother ship at Piaggio ? ;D
Dusty
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Bought new, 35years, 110k miles, original motor, never broke down on me ever
(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc462/leafman60/Bike%20Pics/IMG_1777.jpg) (http://s1213.photobucket.com/user/leafman60/media/Bike%20Pics/IMG_1777.jpg.html)
I haven't clicked on this thread as it holds no interest for me.
I was wrong
'77 Low Rider? :food
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A modern version of one of these would be very cool!
(http://www.caimag.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/img_2194.jpg)
This should be the Chief
And this the Scout.
(http://www.motorcycleclassics.com/uploadedImages/articles/issues/2012-11-01/Indian-Model-841_resized600X400.jpg)
http://www.motorcycleclassics.com/uploadedImages/articles/issues/2012-11-01/Indian-Model-841.jpg (http://www.motorcycleclassics.com/uploadedImages/articles/issues/2012-11-01/Indian-Model-841.jpg)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_841 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_841)
In Utopia. :BEER:
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Bought new, 35years, 110k miles, original motor, never broke down on me ever
(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc462/leafman60/Bike%20Pics/IMG_1777.jpg) (http://s1213.photobucket.com/user/leafman60/media/Bike%20Pics/IMG_1777.jpg.html)
I haven't clicked on this thread as it holds no interest for me.
I was wrong
'77 Low Rider? :food
Early '78. Same thing.
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Well I just signed up for my test ride. Wahoo!
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I wonder how long before there's a lawsuit filed to drop the name "Indian" "Cheiftan" and the front fender light as degrading. I 'spose the attorneys at Polaris have already anticipated those possibilites.
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We still have the Atlanta Braves and the Cleveland Indians.
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I'm not sure how "Indian" or "Chieftan" is degrading. Those are honorable names, not derogatory or racist like "redskin" or "savage." ???
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I was hoping for something a bit more modern looking. To me, looks like an old coca cola cooler on wheels.
Just my opinion.
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I like the look, ...and yes the script is similar to that of Coca Cola. The Indian has been alternately criticized for not being original and for not being modern enough. Go figure. The Indian styling is iconic and certainly stands out from the crowd. I think the "style" is classic. Of today's motorcycles few can boast of timeless styling. Ducati certainly can. Maybe Moto Guzzi. Both are iconic and somewhat timeless. Others? I certainly think Indian qualifies.
If the business plan is solid, Indian will be a huge success. A dealer just told me he already had 11 orders since the unveiling. They'll sell, and sell well of that you can be sure. It is a contender for my next bike (along with the California 1400). It would be nice to buy an American bike I liked.
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Harley Davidson, made of tin; ride 'em out and push 'em in. You can't wear out the Indian Scout nor it's brother the Indian Chief. It's those Harley's that cause eternal grief.
From Sammy Pierce aka Mr. Indian.
I bought a 2 owner unmolested '48 Chief for $1200 in 1972. It had 4,300 miles on it. I rode it another 9,500 miles. Great bike. As road worthy as anything, but they require new guides and valve seat refacing every 4,500 miles.
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I bought a 2 owner unmolested '48 Chief for $1200 in 1972. It had 4,300 miles on it. I rode it another 9,500 miles. Great bike. As road worthy as anything, but they require new guides and valve seat refacing every 4,500 miles.
Ah! The good old days! :BEER:
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There's a dealer a SCANT 100 or so miles from here who is having their demo truck next Friday.
I think Jay (Jas67) and I are going to take a ride up that way and see for ourselves. Maybe compare/contrast to the Cali 1400 we test rode recently.
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Again, the quality and fit-and-finish on that thing is superb.
I hope they do well with it.
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There's a dealer a SCANT 100 or so miles from here who is having their demo truck next Friday.
I think Jay (Jas67) and I are going to take a ride up that way and see for ourselves. Maybe compare/contrast to the Cali 1400 we test rode recently.
Take some pix!
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Jay and I are signed up for a demo ride at 1 o'clock on Friday!
Hope the weather holds.
Will give me a chance to test out my new Memphis Shades touring windshield on the Sporty for a 100 mile or so blast on the highway for the way home, but hopefully we can take some back roads on the way up.
I'd take the V7, but looks like a good part of the day is going to spent on the highway anyway...
We'll report back (assuming we make it).
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how was the test ride?
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Jay and I are signed up for a demo ride at 1 o'clock on Friday!
Hope the weather holds.
Will give me a chance to test out my new Memphis Shades touring windshield on the Sporty for a 100 mile or so blast on the highway for the way home, but hopefully we can take some back roads on the way up.
I'd take the V7, but looks like a good part of the day is going to spent on the highway anyway...
We'll report back (assuming we make it).
" a good portion of the day on a 100 mile or so highway..." How slow do you ride Kev, a good portion of the day to go 100 miles?? If you want to take the Sporster than just own it brother, a 100 miles of highway on a v7 stone in no reason not to take a v7 Stone!
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It's over 100 miles one way, and sadly that is through North Jersey, meaning it can take 3+ hours each way. :BEER:
And hopefully that's not the only riding we'll be doing.
Honestly, I'd rather take the V7, but if we wind up droning to make time or stuck in traffic the Sporty is the better fit. Plus I think he's taking the B11.
That said, I love the Sporty too and don't need to pretend anything.
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O.K. so Indian went out of business in 1953; and now a new owner is bring them back. Better that than selling your soul to a bowling ball manufacturer to save yourself from the same fate.
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I rode the indian last saterday up in Worchester Mass. I have to say H.D. is realy going to loose some business over this bike. I rode the fully loaded Bike and it was amaizing lots of power , brakes fantastic well balanced I
still cant get over that bike. Will sell like hot cakes.
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Worcester? At Wagner's?
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O.K. so Indian went out of business in 1953; and now a new owner is bring them back. Better that than selling your soul to a bowling ball manufacturer to save yourself from the same fate.
Not exactly,Harley was down but not out of production when bought by investors in 1981.They improved the product which was still based on traditional Harley engineering features.
Indian was done in 1953 and just the name continued on with rebadged Brit bikes and the many attempts at reintroducing big bikes based on Harley clones...
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Not exactly,Harley was down but not out of production when bought by investors in 1981.They improved the product which was still based on traditional Harley engineering features.
Indian was done in 1953 and just the name continued on with rebadged Brit bikes and the many attempts at reintroducing big bikes based on Harley clones...
...and Harley used the same factory. The Indian Springfield plant was totally razed so today nothing remains of the old Indian Motocycle Company. The name even stopped continuing after a bit.
That doesn't mean that the new Indian isn't a really good, well engineered bike - but it is totally new and has not one thing to tie it to the original company.
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That doesn't mean that the new Indian isn't a really good, well engineered bike - but it is totally new and has not one thing to tie it to the original company.
You mean like Triumph...
... but who cares really.
The new Indian has the 2 MOST important ties - the legal name and decent designers who seem to understand the heritage/market/function of the bikes.
Hopefully I'll know more Friday - finger's crossed on the weather.
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Not exactly,Harley was down but not out of production when bought by investors in 1981.They improved the product which was still based on traditional Harley engineering features.
Indian was done in 1953 and just the name continued on with rebadged Brit bikes and the many attempts at reintroducing big bikes based on Harley clones...
I had a 2003 "Indian" and loved it.
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I had a 2003 "Indian" and loved it.
I'm sure it's just as good as a Harley,maybe better...S&S engine in that Indian ? Or another Harley type engine? If I take a Guzzi engine,copy it in all engineering features ,then change an outside cover or the logo ,is it a Moto Guzzi or a "Rough Edge Racing Interceptor"?
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You mean like Triumph...
... but who cares really.
The new Indian has the 2 MOST important ties - the legal name and decent designers who seem to understand the heritage/market/function of the bikes.
Hopefully I'll know more Friday - finger's crossed on the weather.
Nothing wrong with using the name , even if it is just a marketing ploy . One small difference between Polaindian and Triumph , and maybe meaningless . John Bloor purchased the Name from the remains of Triumph in 1983 , and spent the next 6 years or so developing a modern product with no fanfare , 100 million English pounds later Viola , instant success . Kind of a different route , not necessarily "better" , just seems to be a business model more in line with long term success than lots of hoopla . Bloor developed a new line that was not based on nostalgia and established quality control and a dealer network , along with a good parts and service network before delving in to "nostalgia" models . I do wish Polaris well , but going mano y mano with HD is not going to be easy .
Dusty
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John Bloor purchased the Name from the remains of Triumph in 1983 , and spent the next 6 years or so developing a modern product with no fanfare , Dusty
He bought more than the name. But at this point it doesn't really matter.
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Nothing wrong with using the name , even if it is just a marketing ploy . One small difference between Polaindian and Triumph , and maybe meaningless . John Bloor purchased the Name from the remains of Triumph in 1983 , and spent the next 6 years or so developing a modern product with no fanfare , 100 million English pounds later Viola , instant success . Kind of a different route , not necessarily "better" , just seems to be a business model more in line with long term success than lots of hoopla . Bloor developed a new line that was not based on nostalgia and established quality control and a dealer network , along with a good parts and service network before delving in to "nostalgia" models . I do wish Polaris well , but going mano y mano with HD is not going to be easy .
Dusty
Though interestingly enough sales were slow and small until he debuted the Neo-Classic line.
He bought more than the name. But at this point it doesn't really matter.
For all intents and purposes - not really, but yes, it doesn't matter.
It's not like he wound up with an operating factory or tooling or well, anything he really used but the name and some real estate.
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KevM , slow but solid . In the long run a well established parts and service network , along with a well developed reputation for a reliable product is more important to long term viability than splashy marketing , at least in the MC world . The nostalgia models sold because Triumph was once again a trusted name . HD would have folded long ago if their product line had not been greatly improved , and AMF provided most of the funds to develop the EVO motor and other improvements that kept Harley alive . Money , money, money , money ... and patience work almost every time .
Dusty
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KevM , slow but solid . In the long run a well established parts and service network , along with a well developed reputation for a reliable product is more important to long term viability than splashy marketing , at least in the MC world . The nostalgia models sold because Triumph was once again a trusted name . HD would have folded long ago if their product line had not been greatly improved , and AMF provided most of the funds to develop the EVO motor and other improvements that kept Harley alive . Money , money, money , money ... and patience work almost every time .
Dusty
I don't disagree that those are vital components - but one could argue that Indian has (because of Polaris and Vic) a head start on the parts and service network and reputation for reliability, even if this is a new motor/chassis.
There seems to be dealers in major areas that are already 10-12 deep on orders.
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I'm sure it's just as good as a Harley,maybe better...S&S engine in that Indian ? Or another Harley type engine? If I take a Guzzi engine,copy it in all engineering features ,then change an outside cover or the logo ,is it a Moto Guzzi or a "Rough Edge Racing Interceptor"?
S&S engine, trouble free for me.
(http://i972.photobucket.com/albums/ae202/keithl/indian/scout1.jpg)
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I don't disagree that those are vital components - but one could argue that Indian has (because of Polaris and Vic) a head start on the parts and service network and reputation for reliability, even if this is a new motor/chassis.
There seems to be dealers in major areas that are already 10-12 deep on orders.
Once again , I wish them well , but once the first blush is gone , what happens next is way more important to long term viability . Victory builds a tremendous bike,
but one of the complaints I hear is lack of resale value . When we are talking 20K plus bikes , and the target demographic , resale value means a lot . I really hope I am wrong about all of this , and the new Polaindian is a smashing long term success, if one of the outlaw clubs adopt it as the bike of choice , well , sales will skyrocket , the appeal to the weekend outlaw will be irresistible . ;D
Dusty
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Yes at Wagners this past weekend.
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It's not like he wound up with an operating factory or tooling or well, anything he really used but the name and some real estate.
(original) Bonneville production continued under Bloor from 1983 to 1988. Production was licensed to Les Harris of Racing Spares. They were not imported to the USA.
Bloor's company was initially called "Bonneville Coventry Ltd" before changing the name to "Triumph Motorcycles Ltd".
There is a lot more continuity in Triumph than in any other re-born motorcycle company.
Polaris would've had to buy Indian's dilapidated Springfield works from the reciever in 1953 for there to be any similarity with Triumph.
:BEER:
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(original) Bonneville production continued under Bloor from 1983 to 1988. Production was licensed to Les Harris of Racing Spares. They were not imported to the USA.
Bloor's company was initially called "Bonneville Coventry Ltd" before changing the name to "Triumph Motorcycles Ltd".
There is a lot more continuity in Triumph than in any other re-born motorcycle company.
Polaris would've had to buy Indian's dilapidated Springfield works from the reciever in 1953 for there to be any similarity with Triumph.
:BEER:
Sorta.
It was "production" on the level of OCC at best.
And hardly continuous if you look at what it was before and what it has become after that.
The resurrected Bloor company had not a single bit of tooling, or frame, or motor design in common with the predecessors.
So in a way it's exactly the same as the Indian rebirth.
A new owner of the name, designed a completely new line of bikes based on the legacy of the name.
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OCC , old cycle commitment , right ?
Dusty
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Polaris would've had to buy Indian's dilapidated Springfield works from the reciever in 1953 for there to be any similarity with Triumph.
Except I don't think Bloor ever manufactured anything in Meriden. After the workers' cooperative that succeeded Triumph Engineering Co., Ltd. went bankrupt in 1983, the Meriden plant was sold by the receiver and it was torn down in 1984. The land was re-developed as a housing subdivision.
By buying the Triumph patents, designs, spares, and some of the tooling, as well as the trademarks, Bloor (through a licensing agreement with Les Harris) was able to keep "old" Triumphs in production until he was ready with new models for the "new" Triumph, Triumph Motorcycles, Ltd., so there is some legitimacy to the claim of continuous production. However, the Harris bikes were built in Devon, and the Bloor bikes were built in Hinckley (now Hinckley and Thailand).
Not that any of it matters. Even the "old" Triumph company could not claim continuous production from a single location, as prior to WWII, the company was based in Coventry.
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I wonder what Siegfried Bettmann would think of all of this ?
Dusty
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Except I don't think Bloor ever manufactured anything in Meriden.
I did not say that he did. And it is well known that he did not. However, he did buy the property and the the rights to Triumph from the reciever.
He did not buy a name from some company that bought the name from some other company who was awarded the name after a court battle fifty years after the factory was shuttered.
My only point was that drawing comparisons, as some people on the interwebs are doing, between Triumph and Indian just doesn't work. The circumstances are/were completely different.
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Not that any of it matters. Even the "old" Triumph company could not claim continuous production from a single location, as prior to WWII, the company was based in Coventry.
That has me wondering. When you qualify "continuous production" with "single location", that thins out the field really fast.
BMW, and HD cannot claim that. They are not producing motorcycles in the factories where they started.
Unless there is some obscure motorcycle company out there I'm not aware of, "continuous production from a single location" award would go to Moto Guzzi and Mandello del Lario.
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Companies grow and merge and change.
I don't think a single owner or factory is NECESSARY, nor even continuous production (if the new company stays true to the brand). Those factors are all nice from a marketing, brand loyalty standpoint. But one alone is not an absolute.
Therefore I find claims like Triumph is the oldest, continuous bla bla bla to be disingenuous.
My response to such claims would be who are you trying to fool? You didn't just teeter at the edge of oblivian, you fell over. You became a complete non-entity. You fell out of governmental and regulatory and industry guides and was, for all intents and purposes no more a manufacturer of motorcycles than the likes of West Coast Choppers or Orange County Choppers. You had no dealer or parts network, or marketing, or customer service or in any real fashion, CUSTOMERS. You were, if not flat lined, for sure in a coma.
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Kev m , I don't think Rocker made that claim , just that the only MC co. in continuous production at the same location is Guzzi .
Dusty
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I'm not responding to Rocker per se, but to the argument (and those who might bother to make it in general).
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OK , gotcha . I find this discussion interesting , everyone seems to have a slightly different view , normal for this crew . Triumph can make no real claim to continuous production , even the 75 Tridents were not built in the Triumph factory , and even though there were a few 500s titled as 75s , they were all built in 74
So even before the end of the CO-OP there was a break in production . I still do hold that Bloor has a better connection to history than Polaris , not that any of of that has any bearing on any of this . Dangit , now I am confused . :D
Dusty
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Absolutely, I wouldn't argue that Triumph doesn't have a "better" connection to their history than Indian...that's a big freakin duh.
But you can also see the rebirth similarities too no?
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3 hours to span 120 some odd miles doesn't sound like much fun through urban/suburban traffic. I'll give you a Get Out of Jail pass on this one! :D
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Sure can Kev , and I really do wish them well . Just because something is not to my taste does not mean I can't appreciate the effort .
Dusty
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3 hours to span 120 some odd miles doesn't sound like much fun through urban/suburban traffic. I'll give you a Get Out of Jail pass on this one! :D
My all time shyte storm record was Philly to NYC (about 100ish miles) TOOK SEVEN HOURS ONCE due to holiday travel.
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My all time shyte storm record was Philly to NYC (about 100ish miles) TOOK SEVEN HOURS ONCE due to holiday travel.
Yeow! :o
Shoulda taken the train, huh?
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But you can also see the rebirth similarities too no?
I'm just glad a heavy-hitter picked up Indian and is running with it.
The name deserves better than it's gotten over the past few decades.
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My all time shyte storm record was Philly to NYC (about 100ish miles) TOOK SEVEN HOURS ONCE due to holiday travel.
Shucks , it took a buddy and me 6 hours to do 17 miles of a mud road in NM , counting dismounting front fenders , keeping the mud dug out between drive shaft housings and rear tires , and just general mayhem . NM 456 if anyone else has been on it . ::)
Dusty
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Gearhead viewpoint.
I saw this vid posted up via ADV .... some tech differences between a HD and Victory V twin motor (2010) .... 1 of 5
http://advrider.com/forums/showpost.php?p=22146451&postcount=981
Hat tip Sneaky Steve.
link to utube series part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KueK_pyJHJE
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Gearhead viewpoint.
I saw this vid posted up via ADV .... some tech differences between a HD and Victory V twin motor (2010) .... 1 of 5
http://advrider.com/forums/showpost.php?p=22146451&postcount=981
That's a good piece and he has some legitimate points, like the Stator and the Cam-Chain Tensioners.
What he doesn't say is that the stator and the starter are NOT big issues, they don't have failure rates that make Harley want to change (or me want to worry about it).
I'm NOT a fan of the cam-chain tensioner situation (as I've posted before), and it's one of the reasons that the Indian, the Cali 1400, and the Vics are all in consideration for my next big bike. But to be fair, the new hydraulic controlled ones are lasting much better. I've SEEN the spring loaded ones last up to 40-50k miles, the hydro ones should last AT LEAST as long. But in either case, it IS an item that a Harley owner will have to open the cam chest (one small cover) and check at LEAST every 25-30k miles to be sure the shoes don't require replacement.
But yes, it still puzzles me why they didn't just go to gear drives on the cams and MAYBE even the primary.
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The cam tensioner deal is long past with HD. You don't need to check em even at 30k miles. Good lord.
The current design for several years is working fine. I'm familiar with some long distance bikes and a friend is a dealer. It is not an issue nowadays.
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The cam tensioner deal is long past with HD. You don't need to check em even at 30k miles. Good lord.
Not on TC88 motors - of which there are still about 1.5 million on the road.
The current design for several years is working fine. I'm familiar with some long distance bikes and a friend is a dealer. It is not an issue nowadays.
Maybe so, but until proven to ME (having seen some lunched TC88s) if I bought a TC96 or TC103 I'd STILL be checking em by 30k - maybe a little longer.
Hell, I thought the "new design" was supposed to be good for "50k" no? Trust, yet verify.
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Shucks , it took a buddy and me 6 hours to do 17 miles of a mud road in NM , counting dismounting front fenders , keeping the mud dug out between drive shaft housings and rear tires , and just general mayhem . NM 456 if anyone else has been on it . ::)
Dusty
BTDT.
(http://rocker59.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Summer-Running-2005/i-W6wNSrt/0/S/wednesday%20end%20of%20pavement%201-S.jpg)
It was a nice day, though.
(http://rocker59.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Summer-Running-2005/i-LrwpTJR/0/S/wednesday%20gravel%20road-S.jpg)
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Thanks Mike , it was raining on our adventure , and they had just built several new bridges . The new fill dirt on both sides of said bridges was the real culprit , stickiest mud I have ever experienced .
Dusty
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The earlier 88s had a few issues on the tensioner but that was changed even on the 88s. The later 88s and certainly the 96s, 103s and 110s are fine.
You have several aftermarket gear drive systems for the cams but they usually make a bit of whine noise. The stock camchain system works fine and nowadays even big-time tuners often retain it.
There has been a few problems with the stock compensator, the spring-loaded front primary chain assembly that absorbs V Twin pulses. If you hop-up the motor very much you may need to install a Screamin eagle compensator. Its not a big deal either.
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Focus for a minute only on the physical appearance of the two bikes. I'm curious. Physical appearance and taste are subjective and differs with different people but just look at these two pictures and say which one you think is the BETTER LOOKING machine.
(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc462/leafman60/Super%20Glide%20II/2014HD.jpg) (http://s1213.photobucket.com/user/leafman60/media/Super%20Glide%20II/2014HD.jpg.html)
(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc462/leafman60/Super%20Glide%20II/2014-indian-chieftain_800x0w.jpg) (http://s1213.photobucket.com/user/leafman60/media/Super%20Glide%20II/2014-indian-chieftain_800x0w.jpg.html)
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The earlier 88s had a few issues on the tensioner but that was changed even on the 88s.
Leaf - NO CHANGE was made the TC88 timing chain tensioner system until the 2006 Dyna redesign - AFAIK the one year only 06 Dyna was the ONLY TC88 platform that ever received (from the factory) the upgrades of the TC96 motor (that debuted on all BT models in 07), which included the hydraulically tensioned timing chains and a revised oil pump assembly, which the factory a few years later finally made available as an upgrade kit for the rest of 1999-06 TC88 production.
I know because I've had one friend with a 1999 TC88 who was the first to suffer the bad camshaft bearing failure and LATER was one of the firsts to completel lunch the motor on the tensioner failure, then more recently (this summer) I was on a tour with I believe a 2005 RK who suffered a failure (albeit at a higher mileage) and LOW AND BEHOLD, when we pulled into a random Harley dealer mid-Friday afternoon there was ANOTHER FLH in for the same repair (from which they stole the parts to get us back on the road).
certainly the 96s, 103s and 110s are fine.
DEFINE "FINE" - as long as you CHECK the tensioners - sure. Reports are that they are much better, and where some of the spring-loaded ones might lunch the motor by 20k these MAY go as long as 50k, but I sure as shyte wouldn't go that long without checking them personally. YMMV but it's a wear item, and a stupid one at that.
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Focus for a minute only on the physical appearance of the two bikes. I'm curious. Physical appearance and taste are subjective and differs with different people but just look at these two pictures and say which one you think is the BETTER LOOKING machine.
(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc462/leafman60/Super%20Glide%20II/2014HD.jpg) (http://s1213.photobucket.com/user/leafman60/media/Super%20Glide%20II/2014HD.jpg.html)
(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc462/leafman60/Super%20Glide%20II/2014-indian-chieftain_800x0w.jpg) (http://s1213.photobucket.com/user/leafman60/media/Super%20Glide%20II/2014-indian-chieftain_800x0w.jpg.html)
I'm predisposed to like the Harley better - but IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE I think it looks a little too busy and I prefer the Chieftain.
Ask me the same question with an RK and a Vintage and I'll PROBABLY tell you the RK (cause I hate the fringe and leather bags).
One thing I think Indian got right was clean lines and not a lot of excess angles/farkles etc. For instance, I'm really not a fan of the redesigned rear crashbar on the FLHs - too many bends.
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Somehow the Indian , at least from that angle , achieves "art deco" , the Harley just looks gaudy and too busy . At least they did not use those "hard candy" colors .
Dusty
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Score 2 for the Indian and its clamshell fenders....
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BTDT.
(http://rocker59.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Summer-Running-2005/i-W6wNSrt/0/S/wednesday%20end%20of%20pavement%201-S.jpg)
It was a nice day, though.
(http://rocker59.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Summer-Running-2005/i-LrwpTJR/0/S/wednesday%20gravel%20road-S.jpg)
that's quite a road. took it 35 years ago in my VW Rabbit. Rocks there are bigger than cars.
Anyway has anyone ridden the Indian and the Cal 1400? That would be a pretty good comparison. I already know that the Cali will blow away the Harley. Cali looks better than either of those gaudy barges.
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Anyway has anyone ridden the Indian and the Cal 1400? That would be a pretty good comparison.
HOPEFULLY Jay and I will have in 2 more days - again, if the weather holds.
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Leaf - NO CHANGE was made the TC88 timing chain tensioner system until the 2006 Dyna redesign - AFAIK the one year only 06 Dyna was the ONLY TC88 platform that ever received (from the factory) the upgrades of the TC96 motor, which included the hydraulically tensioned timing chains and a revised oil pump assembly, which the factory a few years later finally made available as an upgrade kit for the rest of 1999-06 TC88 production.
I know because I've had one friend with a 1999 TC88 who was the first to suffer the bad camshaft bearing failure and LATER was one of the firsts to completel lunch the motor on the tensioner failure, then more recently (this summer) I was on a tour with I believe a 2005 RK who suffered a failure (albeit at a higher mileage) and LOW AND BEHOLD, when we pulled into a random Harley dealer mid-Friday afternoon there was ANOTHER FLH in for the same repair (from which they stole the parts to get us back on the road).
DEFINE "FINE" - as long as you CHECK the tensioners - sure. Reports are that they are much better, and where some of the spring-loaded ones might lunch the motor by 20k these MAY go as long as 50k, but I sure as shyte wouldn't go that long without checking them personally. YMMV but it's a wear item, and a stupid one at that.
Hey, Im supposed to be working and not watching this darn computer!
Harley tensioner shoes.
We're going back a decade so I cant remember all the details. As I recall, they changed the actual polymer compound of the shoe itself in about 02-03 ? Then they later redesigned the whole affair.
The tensioner thing was also joined by problems with the cam bearings first used on the new 88 back then. The original pieces were balls and some failures were experienced. The upgrade was to rollers.
My recollection is that both these issues were dealt with during the 88 run. I had a later-model 88 and never experienced any problems.
If I had an early or mid-run 88, Id make sure all the upgrades were made.
With the later 96, 103, 110, I just don't hear or read about these issues.
One thing that has irked me with my late-model H-D are the wheel bearings. Im shocked that H-D used third-world bearings. They don't hold up. I and others have encountered some wheel stability issues that were completely resolved once Timken/Fafnir or first-quality bearings were installed.
Ok, leaving this site and getting back to work. TTYL
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I also prefer the Indian's styling. It is retro yet modern with clean lines.
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Focus for a minute only on the physical appearance of the two bikes. I'm curious. Physical appearance and taste are subjective and differs with different people but just look at these two pictures and say which one you think is the BETTER LOOKING machine.
(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc462/leafman60/Super%20Glide%20II/2014HD.jpg) (http://s1213.photobucket.com/user/leafman60/media/Super%20Glide%20II/2014HD.jpg.html)
(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc462/leafman60/Super%20Glide%20II/2014-indian-chieftain_800x0w.jpg) (http://s1213.photobucket.com/user/leafman60/media/Super%20Glide%20II/2014-indian-chieftain_800x0w.jpg.html)
I vote for the HD, though I would buy an Indian prior to buying a HD. The HD has a straighter stance/look, the fairing and forks don't lean back as much in appearance as the Indian. The longer wheel base on the Indian doesn't help it's looks. The fairing on the HD looks brawnier and wider than the Indian. The HD certainly has the LOOK that many have come to expect a touring/cruiser to have. Yes it does look dated in some ways, but hell, I'm dated in every way except Carbon-14. :D I like the much more block/square look of the HD, much as I like the looks of the old style Town Cars, Rolls and Bentleys. Everything today seems to be going in the melted candy bar direction of styling. Even my big truck semis are going that way. I understand why, aerodynamics, but that doesn't mean it looks as good as bold and square.
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LOL - I guess I should be (am?) working too...
Well, the compound difference didn't work, well, maybe it did a little. Maybe that's why some went longer before chewing through them, 40k or 50k.
But there must be a reason that Harley came out with the hydro activated retrofit kit, and the kit is pretty common in dealers around the country. No?
:BEER:
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The longer wheel base on the Indian doesn't help it's looks.
FWIW
Wheelbases
HD RK/FLH - 63.5"
Indian Chieftain - 65.7"
Victory Cross Roads - 65.7"
Guzzi Cali 1400 Touring - 66.34"
Guzzi Cali 1400 Custom - 66.9"
Indian Vintage - 68.1"
I should add that I have no idea why the difference in the Calis, might be real, or might be two different sources. I'm leaning towards the later.
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I think maybe the trunk, seat and more vertical lines of the HD helps it look shorter, significantly shorter, than the Indian. It may be the perspective in the photo also. Remebber, believe nothing you hear, and only half of what you SEE. ;)
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Yes, Harley has made their old-tech approach "work," but to do so, they have had to design virtually every component bigger, heavier, and more complicated than it otherwise needs to be. It's a Rube Goldberg approach to engineering that just rubs me the wrong way.
As far as styling goes, it's too subjective a topic to argue, but FWIW, I much prefer the looks of the new Indian Chieftain to the H-D Ultra. The Indian looks like a fully integrated design, while the Harley looks like a collection of parts.
IMO, both engineering and styling-wise, it's the difference between incrementally tinkering with an established product, versus starting with a clean sheet of paper. For better or worse, Harley-Davidson is saddled with their "tradition," and with it, the preferences of their "traditional" customers. Nobody in their right mind would today design a Big Twin motorcycle engine from scratch. A transportation engineering student who designed such an engine today would get an "F" in the course.
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So, the Polaris/Indian engineers get an "F" for the 111 engine?
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So, the Polaris/Indian engineers get an "F" for the 111 engine?
How so?
YouCan is talking about all the differences between the Harley motor and the Vic or Indian.
The Indian is unitized, primary gear driven, and probably uses design cues like the video points out about Victories like the stator and doesn't use tensioner shoes etc.
He's saying that someone who designed a new bike or motor today that DIDN'T use those new differences would get an F.
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He states: Nobody in their right mind would today design a Big Twin motorcycle engine from scratch. A transportation engineering student who designed such an engine today would get an "F" in the course.
I ask: does this include the people at Polaris/Indian who just released an all new v-twin.
But, now, after re-reading it, I see that by "Big Twin" he meant "Harley-Davidson Big Twin" and not just a large displacement twin.
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Yup, I'm pretty sure he meant Big Twin® :BEER:
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and to tie this thread with the garage thread a while back. From my 99 FXDX (also replaced the needle cam bearings which I still have also, WHY?)
(http://justhanson.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/misc/i-Xw9xc8J/0/L/20130821_160128-L.jpg)
P.S. Guess what is below the seat on my shop stool tray? Okay, that does it, I'm cleaning my garage, soon.
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This is getting good! :BEER:
It thus far took two responses to tell us what YCRN really meant! ;D ;D ;D
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Ok, to continue the poll on looks, lets try pictures from another perspective. Whaddya think?
(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc462/leafman60/Super%20Glide%20II/14-hd-electra-glide-ultra-classic-8.jpg) (http://s1213.photobucket.com/user/leafman60/media/Super%20Glide%20II/14-hd-electra-glide-ultra-classic-8.jpg.html)
(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc462/leafman60/Super%20Glide%20II/photos_large_1.jpg) (http://s1213.photobucket.com/user/leafman60/media/Super%20Glide%20II/photos_large_1.jpg.html)
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What do I think? I think I'm glad I ride what I ride.
But, yes. These two bikes in the pic do have some similarities. Especially the fairings.
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I think you really need a pic of a red Street Glide.
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The HD looks much less "busy" in a single color . Sill like the Indian more . Dog , what am I saying , I like the new Indian :o ::) , OH MY Fellas , where are my
meds ? Maybe I have a fever . ??? Of course the passenger would be happier in the Ultra .
Dusty
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I really don't like the fairing on the new Indian. I like HD look better. I do like the looks of the classic Chief, or the mid level one better than the full Chief.
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Ok, to continue the poll on looks, lets try pictures from another perspective. Whaddya think?
(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc462/leafman60/Super%20Glide%20II/14-hd-electra-glide-ultra-classic-8.jpg) (http://s1213.photobucket.com/user/leafman60/media/Super%20Glide%20II/14-hd-electra-glide-ultra-classic-8.jpg.html)
(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc462/leafman60/Super%20Glide%20II/photos_large_1.jpg) (http://s1213.photobucket.com/user/leafman60/media/Super%20Glide%20II/photos_large_1.jpg.html)
Same motorcycle except one has a droopy fender.
Buy one of those? Or a Honda that looks the same, or a Kawasaki? Go for it!! That don't confront me, long as I get my rent .....
Lannis
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From an aesthetic perspective, my nod goes to the FLH. Haven't ridden either bike.
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Is there a box I can check for Neither? ;D
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Ok, well, lets add this one to the mix -
(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc462/leafman60/Super%20Glide%20II/0120California20Touring20Ambassador.jpg) (http://s1213.photobucket.com/user/leafman60/media/Super%20Glide%20II/0120California20Touring20Ambassador.jpg.html)
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(http://www.bikez.com/pictures/harley-davidson/2007/24155_0_1_2_flht%20electra%20glide%20standard_Image%20credits%20-%20Harley-Davidson.jpg)
(http://2013motorbikes.com/wp-content/uploads/2014-Indian-Chieftain.png)
Indian, all the way.
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Reminds me of the Ness Victory. Wonder why.
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Someone explain this phenomenon. At first I didn't like the looks of the Cali 1400, then I started to really like it, this from photos only. Now that I can see photos together of the Harley, Indian, and Cali, I don't like the looks of any of them ???.
K.I.S.S. should be applied to motorcycle design, and that of almost all things, IMHO. These things just look too gaudy.
Oh well, gotta get back on the tractor now. ;)
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Reminds me of the Ness Victory. Wonder why.
A lot of people mistakenly credit Ness with too much of an influence on Victory.
As I understand it, he DID NOT design ANY bikes EXCEPT the "Ness" special-editions and some of their "Ness" labeled accessories.
But yes, it's no surprise that there might be a family resemblance to a Victory.
Someone explain this phenomenon. At first I didn't like the looks of the Cali 1400, then I started to really like it, this from photos only. Now that I can see photos together of the Harley, Indian, and Cali, I don't like the looks of any of them ???.
K.I.S.S. should be applied to motorcycle design, and that of almost all things, IMHO. These things just look too gaudy.
Oh well, gotta get back on the tractor now. ;)
Though I agree about the KISS principle - I think part of what you're describing is the phenomenon of how we perceive things. When there's nothing more to base it on we perceive it ALL by looks (first impression). But once we have any experience with someone or something we start to perceive it by memory and feelings as much or more than looks. The looks change in our mind even just from getting used to seeing something over and over, but moreso if we have positive experiences.
I was open to liking the Cali from the start, but perceived certain styling points to be a little gaudy, then started to like it more when I saw it in person and even more when I rode it. But as time has passed, I've started to think about those gaudy points again.
If I wind up with a Cali, there's a VERY good chance I'll go with the Custom (for looks) and find other solutions for bags and a windshield.
Similarly, I LOVE the Road King, but can't stand most of the Electra Glides because they are too gaudy. Actually I think the RK is a little gaudy too and wouldn't mind it being a little more understated (kinda more like the Switchback/FLD visually).
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That's the nicest looking Ultra I've seen. I like the front fairing. I do prefer the style of the Indian Chieftain overall. The design of the bits and pieces is handled better and more consistently in the chosen style. To me there is something very engaging with the Indian style. I can't quite put my finger on it, but it beckons me. I like it.
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Hmmm, full report and pics maybe tomorrow.
Initial report....Gorgeous bike in person, no gripes with fit, finish, perception of quality.
Motor LOOKS huge...holy shit those jugs and heads seem massive.
Brakes, suspension, motor all felt as they should....strong, comfy, smooth etc.
LOTS to like, though same could be said about their competition too.
More soonish
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I am thinking about doing a test ride so I am very interested in your opinion especially compared to the Cali.
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I was with Kev M at the demo today.
A few words for now, as I'm sure he'll cover it well with a full report, and I'll fill in any blanks later.
Torque.... lots of torque.
Beautiful bike with excellent fit and finish. From the cast alloy frame to the absolutely gorgeous engine, it is well executed.
I'd have to get one out for an extended ride to really judge it's handling, as the demo ride was largely a parade.... complete with Motorcycle POLICE ESCORT. Kudos to the moto-cops who escorted us through snarled NJ suburban sprawl traffic. They even cleared a lane for us on a local highway so that we could at least get out of 2nd gear. I was toward the back of the pack, a good place to be, as you can drop back a little to get a chance to experience the torque. The red and blue flashing lights and occasional blast of siren was a bit disconcerting at first. :+=copcar ;D
Once rolling, the big 111 inch motor doesn't care what gear you have it in. Did I mention torque? It has a nice deep exhaust note. The big twin is nice and smooth, or, they've done an excellent job of isolating the vibes without making you feel completely disconnected from it.
I don't have any seat time on a Harley Big Twin (only Kev's Sportster), so, I have to leave the comparison to Harley Big Twins to him. For that matter, I've got very little seat time on cruisers in general. In fact, I've always been the "anti-cruiser" guy, so, don't tell my sport bike friends that I like this bike ;-T
I will say that it carries it's weight quite low, and doesn't feel like a heavyweight cruiser to lift off the side stand. In fact, it didn't feel any heavier in that respect than the Cali 1400.
It is a LONG bike. You definitely would need some room to turn this around in a parking lot. It would certainly not be my choice for canyon carving, but that isn't what this bike is about. I would say it would be a very comfortable mount for say, a 600 mile day of mostly super slab, or gentle sweepers,.
I hope that some bike rental place near me gets some of these, I'd love to rent one for a weekend of riding just to get to know it better. I'd love to have the same experience with the Cali 1400. When Kev and I test rode the Cali 1400, we had more of a chance to open it up and experience it more, but the experience was still quite limited. Given the choice between the Indian and the Cali, I'd have to give the nod to the Cali, but, need to experience both more to compare them. Both have a distinctive look to them and stand out in the sea of Harleys and metric cruisers (not to knock on Harleys).
At this point of my life, I really don't have a need for this type of bike, but I'm glad to have experienced it. I think that Polaris has a hit on there hands here, and I'm sure that The Motor Company is paying attention, as per the Polaris marketing slogan "Choice is Coming". I wish Polaris/Indian well, and look forward to seeing lots of these new Indians out on the open road.
Oh, and one last thing, as we were getting ready to leave, we saw a blue Cali EV in the parking lot. Anyone here?
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Mr.jas67, thanks for taking the time!
Following this excitedly.
Mr.Kev, you're up ;-T
Waiting w/ baited breathe.
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A lot of people mistakenly credit Ness with too much of an influence on Victory.
As I understand it, he DID NOT design ANY bikes EXCEPT the "Ness" special-editions and some of their "Ness" labeled accessories.
But yes, it's no surprise that there might be a family resemblance to a Victory.
Though I agree about the KISS principle - I think part of what you're describing is the phenomenon of how we perceive things. When there's nothing more to base it on we perceive it ALL by looks (first impression). But once we have any experience with someone or something we start to perceive it by memory and feelings as much or more than looks. The looks change in our mind even just from getting used to seeing something over and over, but moreso if we have positive experiences.
I was open to liking the Cali from the start, but perceived certain styling points to be a little gaudy, then started to like it more when I saw it in person and even more when I rode it. But as time has passed, I've started to think about those gaudy points again.
If I wind up with a Cali, there's a VERY good chance I'll go with the Custom (for looks) and find other solutions for bags and a windshield.
Similarly, I LOVE the Road King, but can't stand most of the Electra Glides because they are too gaudy. Actually I think the RK is a little gaudy too and wouldn't mind it being a little more understated (kinda more like the Switchback/FLD visually).
I love the road king too. As we 've discussed, but I too felt the regular ones were too gaudy for me. That's why I bought the FLHRS, the road king custom. One big "Hiawatha" headlight nacelle, no passing lamps, simpler trim, cleaner lines. Then I got rid of the beach bar and put on what Harley calls "street slammers". These are usually more for the Deuce or fat boy crowd, but they transformed the road king, making it even better to handle and forcing a more upright riding position - kind of like that on the cal 1400 custom. I loved that bike - it was the one that got away. Funny enough I sold it to a guy in in e Deep South who flew up and rode it home, blowing the motor within two weeks because some screw in the air filter vibrated off and shot through the engine, or something like that. Owner ended up putting an even bigger motor in it - I thi k he was going to do that anyways.
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I always thought the FLHRS had better lines - I liked the cleaner fenders.
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As you know, I took a little 300 mile or so round trip with my little bro yesterday for a 20 minute demo ride on the new Indian.
The dealer is in Union, NJ close enough to NYC to be snarled in all directions with traffic, so it was nice that they had 4 hard working motor officers from the Union TWP police force to escort us. The blocked all lanes, intersections, etc so we ran all stop signs, lights etc. They even cleared a lane or two for us on the highways.
Sadly though it was still very congested and the group ride never REALLY allowed for us to test any limits of the bike say with handling or speed. I did get some hard acceleration in a couple of times by hanging back a little, and pushed the brakes a bit, plus tried to take very tight leaned lines at the occasional turns so I think I got enough of a feel for the basics on the bike.
Like so many bikes in my life I felt that these bikes looked better in person than in the pictures I've seen.
As I said earlier, the fit/finish/quality all appears to be there.
The brakes were fantastic, and though I got on them hard I never sensed the non-linked ABS kicking in.
Unlike say the FLD I demo'd when they first came out I never managed to scrape a floorboard, so ground clearance and lean angles seem fine for most usage (I'm sure they are comparable to the Harley touring models).
I really wanted to try the shorter wheelbase Chieftain but there were virtual cockfights when picking the bike (it was a case of a safety briefing followed by a "go get on the bike you want" and I wasn't about to run so I wound up on a pimped out Classic which in retrospect was fine.
What I think I learned the most about it was that once you get past a certain size on a bike (don't know where that is, maybe north of 600 lbs and a wheelbase greater than maybe 60") a few more (or couple hundred more) pounds and a few more inches of wheelbase don't REALLY matter.
This bike specs at something like 812 lbs wet and has a wheelbase of 68.1 inches.
To put that in perspective that's over 200 lbs heavier and 8 inches more wheelbase than my Sportster, or still a good 100 lbs heavier and another inch or so of wheelbase over the new Guzzi California Custom.
BUT like the Harley FLH series or the new Guzzi, this bike REALLY hides that weight and you don't know it is there lifting it off the stand or casually riding it. I'm sure you'd get more of a sense of the heft if you started throwing it around canyons but that's NOT what this bike is about (not that I still probably couldn't enjoy it in that situation, just that it's not really the right tool for the job at that point).
The motor had tons of torque and didn't particularly care what gear you were in (though I only managed to get it into 4th at about 60 mph on the short stretches of highway we took).
The motor was otherwise unobtrusive in the sense that it was relatively narrow, smooth, quiet, and didn't seem to be putting out any excessive heat. As I said earlier though it is visually MASSIVE (which I suspect was purposeful in its design).
At a glance it seems to take a number of technical cues from the Victory - like the starter mounted out front or the primary cover that is obviously finned for cooling (which makes me suspect the stator is mounted to the front inside of that cover).
The cast aluminum frame is a nice sight and speaks to the rigidity of the chassis. Two points of interest with regards to the frame are
1. If you look at the front of the frame just below the neck you'll see it is hollow - because THAT is the air intake for the motor. It's a clever way to ensure that the motor is making the best power available by pulling in cool/non-engine fouled air.
2. If you look right below the air intake you'll notice an oil cooler - but you have to be looking for it because it's pretty tiny and sits completely between the twin frame downtubes. I haven't seen the new FLH oil coolers in person yet, but it is about 1/3 the size of the massive (radiator looking) oil cooler found on the new Guzzi Cali 1400.
Though I didn't get to ride the Chieftain I must say that I like the look of the fairing (both the front of it, and more importantly the back of it) in person. It looks clean and like business.
A few other minor notes - clutch pull was on the firm side, moreso than I remember on most current Harleys, but it's still nothing like what Harleys used to be.
Switchgear is set-up like a standard metric. The safety briefing was funny as the guy was trying to say that without saying the term METRIC.
Fueling seemed good and the fly-by-wire throttle was fine with one possible exception - there seemed to be an on/off switch point near idle where I could feel a tiny bit of throttle lag. Could have just been me or the horrible conditions under which we were forced to demo these things, or it could have been a glitch with the bike. Certainly something I could get used to by simply not closing the throttle quite as much/quite as often - but then again I doubt I'd ever have to ride it much plodding along behind a dozen others who aren't getting out of their own way either.
All-in-all I came away feeling very positive about the bike itself with a revelation that I need not worry about the minutia of specs with these big touring bikes.
Would I buy one - that depends - honestly I already own two bikes with relatively limited dealer networks and I'm not sure I'd want to add a third. But that's no different with the new Guzzi Cali too.
I think in the end it will come down to the particulars. If I'm looking for a fairing, the Chieftain might get a nod, but if I'm looking for a Road King competitor, then I'd probably pass on the Vintage because the leather bags and fringe and spokes are a bit too much for me personally. At that point it would likely come down to an RK vs. the Cali 1400 Custom and a set of quick-detach Hepco&Becker bags.
I do think (hope) that Indian does well, because as their add campaign says "Choice is coming" and honestly, that's a good thing for the whole market. More choices, more competition, means everyone ups their game.
Now a few pics:
"Does this bike make my belly look smaller or Damn I make this bike look small"
(http://www.gigabikes.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10081/IMG_20130823_124053_631a.jpg)
I should have put a hand or foot in this pic for perspective, the freaking jugs look thicker than my thigh (but I guess you can see that in the previous pic)
(http://www.gigabikes.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10081/IMG_20130823_125031_931a.jpg)
You can see some of the tech features I mentioned - air intake, oil cooler, cooling fins on primary
(http://www.gigabikes.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10081/IMG_20130823_124938_765a.jpg)
The test mule - thanks Jay for the wonderful timing on this pic - "hey look at all the room I'd have for a beer belly"
(http://www.gigabikes.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10081/IMG_20130823_132438_487a.jpg)
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thanks Kev!
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Can "kitschy" be applied to motorbikes ?
Dusty
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;-T ;-T ;-T
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Hi, Kev. How's the torque feel compared to the HD or the Guzzi 1068cc ?
About engine internal noise and exhaust note?
Are the wheels sealed or tubes on the spoke ones.
Your test mule is what I would buy. Love that red, could mount a quality Shad
top box on that rack, done. What do you get for two grand more besides leather
bags and a windscreen.
Thanks for the write up chubby. Just kidding you look fine.
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The test mule - thanks Jay for the wonderful timing on this pic - "hey look at all the room I'd have for a beer belly"
You're very welcome -- I'm here to help! :BEER:
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Hi, Kev. How's the torque feel compared to the HD or the Guzzi 1068cc ?
About engine internal noise and exhaust note?
Are the wheels sealed or tubes on the spoke ones.
Your test mule is what I would buy. Love that red, could mount a quality Shad
top box on that rack, one. What do you get for two grand more besides leather bags and a wind screen.
Thanks for the write up chubby. Just kidding you look fine.
Ouch lol :BEER:
Torque felt comparable to the new Cali 1400, so a step or 3 beyond a 2V Guzzi big block. Can't compare to current HD big twin yet, but suspect it is also comparable.
Engine noise? I didn't notice...exhaust? pleasantly muted.
Wheels? sorry, didn't ask, but was told today the new HD ones (at least on dressers) are tubeless, so maybe.
Not sure of other differences between the Classic and Vintage other than seat, windshield, and bags.
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Torque felt comparable to the new Carli 1400, so a step or 3 beyond a 2V Guzzi big block.
:+1 on both comments above. I road my Breva 1100 to the demo. The Indian definitely has heaps of torque. It weighs about 240 lbs more than my Breva, but definitely feels like it has more torque. Granted, the 2V Guzzi big block will rev higher, and accelerate the lighter Breva faster than the Indian, but damn, I never thought 800lbs of bike could accelerate that. Both the Indian and the Cali 1400 have plenty-o-torque for the job. ;-T
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both bikes might have good torque but the Cal 14 runs up to 7k RPMs, whereas the Indian tops out under 5k.
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both bikes might have good torque but the Cal 14 runs up to 7k RPMs, whereas the Indian tops out under 5k.
Doesn't really matter how high one revs vs the other if peak numbers are higher at a lower point. More importantly a drag race isn't really what either bike is about.
They both have plenty of power to hustle their respective masses and the loads they might carry. They both handle better than you might expect.
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Im a fan of Indian bikes, but I dont like the giant chrome headlight shroud at all. Im sure its a great bike, but
I think the previous incarnation looked better.
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Doesn't really matter how high one revs vs the other if peak numbers are higher at a lower point. More importantly a drag race isn't really what either bike is about.
They both have plenty of power to hustle their respective masses and the loads they might carry. They both handle better than you might expect.
if you say that both bike have similar torque and one of the bikes has another 2k of revs, that's real HP. I usually ride my Guzzi over 4k. Now I know the Cal 14 doesn't need to be rev'd and it really goes. That's also why the C14 will just trounce a Harley. I was wondering if it was faster than the Indian too.
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if you say that both bike have similar torque and one of the bikes has another 2k of revs, that's real HP. I usually ride my Guzzi over 4k. Now I know the Cal 14 doesn't need to be rev'd and it really goes. That's also why the C14 will just trounce a Harley. I was wondering if it was faster than the Indian too.
Facts not in evidence.
Do we have a 1/4 mile time from the MCN test yet?
Don't be so sure about trouncing.
And similar torque means similar feel in the power range. That doesn't mean that power range is the same or they both pull the same at the same rpm. For all I know I might have been shifting the Cali at 1-2k higher rpm.
They might be "similar", but I haven't compared them THAT closely, and if not, then it's a huge assumption to think the Cali outpulls the 119 ft. lbs. of the Indian just because it revs more, even if it's making 20% less torque at peak (though I admit the lower weight probably makes them close).
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Cycle World is putting the Cali 1400 Custom at 12.48.
I see RK times anywhere from 11-14...but no times yet on the new higher output motor. If I had to guess I'd say a hair slower stock than the Cali, but Harley always leaves something on the table in that category that Guzzi doesn't.
Bet a mild tune to the RK would match the Cali, but the same to the Cali wouldn't yield much (if anything).
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An 11 second Road King?? ::) JATO assist? ;D
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Facts not in evidence.
Do we have a 1/4 mile time from the MCN test yet?
Don't be so sure about trouncing.
And similar torque means similar feel in the power range. That doesn't mean that power range is the same or they both pull the same at the same rpm. For all I know I might have been shifting the Cali at 1-2k higher rpm.
They might be "similar", but I haven't compared them THAT closely, and if not, then it's a huge assumption to think the Cali outpulls the 119 ft. lbs. of the Indian just because it revs more, even if it's making 20% less torque at peak (though I admit the lower weight probably makes them close).
Kev, I thought you rode both bikes and could let us know the answers......... All I know is the Cal 14 is much better performer than the Harley. I was hoping to know how it stacked against the Indian. We can speculate all day long. I'd like a bike that revs more than 5k.
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An 11 second Road King?? ::) JATO assist? ;D
1/8th mile :D
Dusty
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Cycle World is putting the Cali 1400 Custom at 12.48.
I see RK times anywhere from 11-14...but no times yet on the new higher output motor. If I had to guess I'd say a hair slower stock than the Cali, but Harley always leaves something on the table in that category that Guzzi doesn't.
Bet a mild tune to the RK would match the Cali, but the same to the Cali wouldn't yield much (if anything).
12.5 second touring bike is a freaking rocketship. I'm not sure what you're saying about RK times but 14.5 would be typical. Add bags to the Custom and it's still 13 second (magazine time) machine. Seat of pants tells me the Cal14 has at least second a half on the RK.
I've ridden too many Harleys to know that they aren't in the same league. I've ridden some scary fast "built" Harleys that are real fast- not what I'd call tourers. Have a buddy with a $35k screaming eagle full boat tourer. No way it will stay with a Cal 14, straight line, much less in the curves.
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An 11 second Road King?? ::) JATO assist? ;D
1/8th mile :D
Dusty
and a slow finger on the watch start button, and a fast one on the stop button. :D ;)
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I didn't say the 11.something second RK was stock lol.
That said I think you guys are over selling the Cali.
Here are some MCN numbers
TC88 Rk - 13.94
TC96 RK - 13.44
CVO (TC96?) Fat Boy - 12.6
I don't have stock numbers for a TC103, or the new high output 103, but every Harley I've ever seen dyno'd gains significantly from intake/exhaust/tune, much moreso than a Guzzi.
So if the TC96 stock was in the 13's it would not surprise me in the slight if two motor revisions later the RK's are in the 12's which would put them square in Cali territory.
Nevemind what a stage I tune should do.
And yes from seat of the pants the Indian and Cali are comparable. Which shouldn't trouble anyone since the Indian motor is significantly larger.
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I thought we did not trust MCN :D ;) Of course those are probably "corrected" times .
Dusty
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I thought we did not trust MCN :D ;) Of course those are probably "corrected" times .
Dusty
Trust, yet verify.
They're certainly not Bible specs, but absent anomalies they seem relatively consistent and believable.
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you wouldn't want to make a trip on RK that runs in the 11. It would beat you to death.
I don't believe any stock Harley tourers will run in the 12s. I've never ridden a Harley tourer that was as fast and smooth as the Cal 14. Including the Screaming Eagle Version.
I thought you'd ridden the Indian, Harley and Cal 14?
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Trust, yet verify.
They're certainly not Bible specs, but absent anomalies they seem relatively consistent and believable.
If we use the formula for how much HP it takes to accelerate a given weight in a certain time to a certain speed down a 1/4 mile , yes , those figures are very believable . Of course the rider makes a difference also . There was an article somewhere recently where bikes from different eras and engine type and size were 1/4 mile tested . Ricky Gadson , who primarily races production bikes, beat the times of Larry Mcbride , who is the fastest , quickest T/F bike racer . Proves something about technique .
Dusty
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you wouldn't want to make a trip on RK that runs in the 11. It would beat you to death.
I don't believe any stock Harley tourers will run in the 12s. I've never ridden a Harley tourer that was as fast and smooth as the Cal 14. Including the Screaming Eagle Version.
I thought you'd ridden the Indian, Harley and Cal 14?
Didn't ride the new RK yet.
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Didn't ride the new RK yet.
OK, but you've ridden other RKs? I wouldn't think there's a big diff.
So rate what you've ridden.
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I didn't say the 11.something second RK was stock lol.
That said I think you guys are over selling the Cali.
Here are some MCN numbers
TC88 Rk - 13.94
TC96 RK - 13.44
CVO (TC96?) Fat Boy - 12.6
Well Kev you may not have explicitly stated you were refering to stock bikes, but since thats all anyone of us have been talking about you implicitaly did!
But back to merky facts, MCN puts the 1400 custom at 13.3 sec in 1/4.
I don't have stock numbers for a TC103, or the new high output 103, but every Harley I've ever seen dyno'd gains significantly from intake/exhaust/tune, much moreso than a Guzzi.
So if the TC96 stock was in the 13's it would not surprise me in the slight if two motor revisions later the RK's are in the 12's which would put them square in Cali territory.
Nevemind what a stage I tune should do.
And yes from seat of the pants the Indian and Cali are comparable. Which shouldn't trouble anyone since the Indian motor is significantly larger.
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I have two friends that traded 96 inchers for 103 inchers , both say the 96 was faster . Dunno myself , too big too heavy .
Dusty
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Low, the older RKs I've ridden were much slower but we're talking EVOs and TC88s, pretty different from the current iterations.
Chad, anyone with the slightest knowledge of motorcycles would know a range of 3 seconds in 1/4 mile times of a single model must implicitly include non stock examples. My point was just about not assuming too much. :BEER:
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Low, the older RKs I've ridden were much slower but we're talking EVOs and TC88s, pretty different from the current iterations.
Chad, anyone with the slightest knowledge of motorcycles would know a range of 3 seconds in 1/4 mile times of a single model must implicitly include non stock examples. My point was just about not assuming too much. :BEER:
No, I'm not letting you get away that easy. It makes no sense at all to compare a motorcycle that has had no chance to be played with, to a substantially modified RK! We all know how you love a good pissing match brother. But you would be better off just saying, "Yea, your right, the 11 sec didn't belong in the narrative".
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:pop
Dusty
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:pop
Dusty
I know, righ? I had the same thought as I was typing! :D
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Found a european site comparing the Soft Tail Slim, to the 14 Custom. Interesting, they liked much about each and vis versa. However, they did conclude that that the HD 103 could not come close to matching the Guzzi. Oh, and Guzzi won overall, easily.
http://www.moto-station.com/article17135-harley-davidson-softail-slim-vs-moto-guzzi-california-1400-custom-custom-retro-contre-cruiser-moderne.html
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No, I'm not letting you get away that easy. It makes no sense at all to compare a motorcycle that has had no chance to be played with, to a substantially modified RK! We all know how you love a good pissing match brother. But you would be better off just saying, "Yea, your right, the 11 sec didn't belong in the narrative".
It makes perfect sense, because it reflects reality...i.e. what you might find or can have. My point in mentioning a range was don't assume you're going to walk away on the Cali, it might not be true.
And it might not be true even stock...we'll know more when we get some data on the current production models.
As for your personal statement regarding pissing matches, that was uncalled for and inaccurate. Just because I don't shy away from them doesn't mean I like them, or that this is one.
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Found a european site comparing the Soft Tail Slim, to the 14 Custom. Interesting, they liked much about each and vis versa. However, they did conclude that that the HD 103 could not come close to matching the Guzzi. Oh, and Guzzi won overall, easily.
http://www.moto-station.com/article17135-harley-davidson-softail-slim-vs-moto-guzzi-california-1400-custom-custom-retro-contre-cruiser-moderne.html
You know that's a dramatically different chassis and a different motor to the RK, right?
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Ok Kev, you can make an argument that you don't like them, but you cannot denny that you get into them more than anyone else on this board. That's not necessarily a bad thing, it's just a fact. I like that you don't dive under the table as soon as someone calls you up. You do a solid job of defending your positions.
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Found a european site comparing the Soft Tail Slim, to the 14 Custom. Interesting, they liked much about each and vis versa. However, they did conclude that that the HD 103 could not come close to matching the Guzzi. Oh, and Guzzi won overall, easily.[/size][/size]
http://www.moto-station.com/article17135-harley-davidson-softail-slim-vs-moto-guzzi-california-1400-custom-custom-retro-contre-cruiser-moderne.html
abso- fukin- lootly
let's kill this thread now. :
:beat_horse
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New Indians in Australia:
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/1185650_707187112641786_1154718830_n.jpg)
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Bikes-Only-Transport/217230934970742
“Over the years Polaris have used Bikes Only for many events and motorcycle moves. It was only natural that we would partner with them again to ensure a faultless service delivery of our bikes for the long awaited re-launch of America’s oldest motorcycle brand, Indian Motorcycle. This was a very secretive launch, the only photo in the public arena prior to the global launch was a silhouette of the bike, therefore security and secrecy was paramount, everything had to be perfect with no surprises. Upon explaining this to Ray and the team at Bikes Only they immediately understood and appreciated our concerns and showed us the plan of attack that was on the day, executed without fault. They picked up and delivered our Indian’s in perfect condition with the friendly and courteous service that will keep us coming back. Well done guys… was a pleasure working with you, keep up the great work.”
Regards,
Matthew St. Leger
Logistics & Supply Chain Manager
Polaris Industries Australia & NZ
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abso- fukin- lootly
let's kill this thread now. :
:beat_horse
MIGHT be true, but still facts not on evidence, or do you not recognize the TCB is a different motor, especially from the new high output TC 103?
I still suspect it's not the slam dunk some seem so certain to declare it.
Looks like
103" TCB = 97 ft. lbs.
103" TC HO (new King) = 105 ft. lbs.
110" TC CVO = 117 ft. lbs.
Now the important thing is these are all stock and HD leaves a much higher % of cheap/easy hp on the table (to sell accessories). Harley generally claims that pipes alone can add up to 10% more power, nevermind an intake and tuner.
Now weight is the one thing that will hold the RK back, but those numbers demonstrate it is probably closer than many are assuming.
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hell Kev- you couldn't even tell us if the Cal would run the Indian. I strongly suspect that the Cal 14 would absolutely stomp that Indian.
then you started talking about 11 sec RKs. Just a simple seat-of-the-pants answer for the Indian would've been nice. Most of us have ridden big Harleys. been there, done that.
The French mag already confirmed what we ALL know: the Harley won't keep up with the Cal in a straight-line much less the twisties.
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hell Kev- you couldn't even tell us if the Cal would run the Indian. I strongly suspect that the Cal 14 would absolutely stomp that Indian.
then you started talking about 11 sec RKs. Just a simple seat-of-the-pants answer for the Indian would've been nice. Most of us have ridden big Harleys. been there, done that.
The French mag already confirmed what we ALL know: the Harley won't keep up with the Cal in a straight-line much less the twisties.
How about you post some facts and experience then instead of just giving me bs. You have not ridden the new TC HO right? How about the Indian? Did you at least ride the Cali?
Yes, I can't say with any certainty if the Cali or Indian is faster or the better handler because my test rides didn't involve a drag strip, race track or stop watch.
What I did say, and stand behind, is that they felt close enough the differences probably mean jack dick in the real world.
As for my RK comments I posted a wide range of times I found which reflect what might be possible. If you can't grasp the context and are genuinely confused by it sorry, but I give you more credit than that which means you're just trolling.
Ps and the French mag tested a different chassis, with a different motor, and at a glance I see opinions, but no hard facts. I'm not gonna bet the farm on that (or most) "journalist" reviews thanks.
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the french mag had the 103 motor.
:beat_horse
dead parrot thread
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Low, I thought you knew something about Harleys?
A Softail uses a TCB motor with counterbalancer and different cams from a rubbermounted motor, especially the Touring models.
For 2014, Harley just released a new version of the TC103 called the "high output" with higher figures used only in Touring models.
So the French mag tested a different motor, in a different chassis. Not very applicable to this conversation.
More inportantly, did Chad post this (inserted in my quote in his post):
But back to merky facts, MCN puts the 1400 custom at 13.3 sec in 1/4.
And older RK TC96 mcn numbers:
Here are some MCN numbers
TC88 Rk - 13.94
TC96 RK - 13.44
CVO (TC96?) Fat Boy - 12.6
So MCN said they are in the same ballpark, before power was upped in the latest edition.
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Well, they tested a Softail, which has the 103B engine. It doesn't rev quite as freely as the non-counterbalanced 103 engine, but considering the Big Twin(TM) barely revs at all, we are talking about an incremental difference.
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Well, they tested a Softail, which has the 103B engine. It doesn't rev quite as freely as the non-counterbalanced 103 engine, but considering the Big Twin(TM) barely revs at all, we are talking about an incremental difference.
That's possible, but it's still rated for less power and has a different torque curve from the previous 103, never mind the brand new 103.
Maybe just as importantly, did they give any hard numbers or just impressions?
I'm not claiming to have all the data, but at least I'm presenting some here. Look at the MCN times and the factory torque ratings and at least admit this isn't black and white.
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Goodness , what a fun thread , don't kill it yet , let's see if we can find some real performance figures . Kev M , I do think you enjoy the "debate" , as do I , but the 10% HP increase that HD advertises with a muffler change has always seemed dubious at best . Any dyno figures ?
Dusty
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Goodness , what a fun thread , don't kill it yet , let's see if we can find some real performance figures . Kev M , I do think you enjoy the "debate" , as do I , but the 10% HP increase that HD advertises with a muffler change has always seemed dubious at best . Any dyno figures ?
Dusty
Actually the 10% is easy, but probably takes the intake too more often than not..
But start here:
http://www.nightrider.com/biketech/
Some of this is a bit outdated as it's from the original TC96 intro, buy it's a good example of what Harley usually leaves on the table (purposely).
http://www.nightrider.com/biketech/hd2007HD_performance.htm
This gives a large range of results on different HD BT TC motors
http://www.nightrider.com/biketech/hplist_twin_cam.htm
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8) Thanks . As you know , I am not a real basher of the motor company , or any brand . A Harley riding buddy told me HD guys don't care about outrunning other brands , only other Harleys . Some truth to that I do believe .
Dusty
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I have no doubt the new H-D H.O. 103 makes more torque than the old TC 103, 96, 88, etc., as well as slightly more torque than the nuovo Cali 1400. Here are the numbers that I have seen:
2013 103ci has 9.7:1 Compression Ratio with 100ft. lbs of torque @3250 rpm
2014 103ci twin cooled has 10.0:1 Compression Ratio with 105.5ft lbs of torque @3750 rpm.
2014 103ci non twin cooled has 9.7:1 Compression Ratio with 104.7ft. lbs of torque @3250 rpm.
(I believe these are "at the crank.")
However, the 1400 out-revs the H.O. 103 by quite a bit. Since hp is the product of torque and rpm, divided by a constant, the Cali should best the H-D in hp. Then consider the Cali weighs nearly 100 lbs less than the comparable RK, and the Cali should beat the new RK in most acceleration tests, although the H-D might run even or better just off the line, and possibly in a 60-80 mph roll-on contest.
As the H.O. 103 is already in what could be considered "Stage 2" tune, I doubt there are big gains to be had with aftermarket tuning. Besides, that would not be comparing apples-to-apples. If we were to compare a new RK with aftermarket tuning to a Cali 1400 with the full-boat GuzziTech treatment, I think the 1400 would still best the Harley.
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Those are mostly some good points.
But judging from what we've seen on other Guzzi 8V motors I doubt you'd see much or any peak gain on a Cali, whereas I don't accept that Harley hasn't left their usual gains on the table for dealer and parts/ accessories profit. It would go against what they've done for decades now. Besides they are still beholden to spa standards when they leave York.
And if we want apples to apples isn't MCN putting only a tenth of a second between the bagless Caki Custom and an RK with a tc96?
Did MCN not test the Touring Cali?
No matter, those numbers suggest same ballpark.
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More data
Cali 1400 according to CW:
Crank HP 96 @ 6500 rpm (that's only 1k more rpm than peak Harley TC HP )
Crank torque 90
Interestingly enough cw put rear wheel figures at 88 HP / 79 ft. Lbs. though the peak torque they listed at about 4500 rpm and not the 2500 rpm the factory published.
It will be interesting to see the rear wheel figures for the new Harley 103 HO.
I wonder if they're in the SE catalog as usual?
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Kev, I am guessing that the H.O. 103 engine will not see big gains through further tuning, because it is already "tuned." H-D says the H.O engine has a more free-flowing air intake and a more aggressive cam, so what's left to do? Add a non-EPA pipe and you have, in effect, a Stage 2 engine, no? (Look at how little power was gained by adding water cooling.)
Meanwhile, Polaris puts both H-D and M-G in their place. The new Indian 111 engine is rated at 119 lbs/ft of torque at 3,000 rpm. Yowza. It's also a gorgeous piece. Too bad the new Indian bikes weigh so much, despite the aluminum frame.
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I understand your logic, but history suggests otherwise. And even if it takes a non epa pipe that's still historically going to yield the results. You're not seeing much more stock cause of spa and they are leaving something more for dealers to sell. They still have SE pipes available (legal ones) that they advertized gains with on previous iterations.
Butt we'll see.
Oh, on the out revving, I think we're forgetting the Cali is no Griso.
Guzzi claims peak HP at 6500 and tque 2500
I'm seeing rev limiter listed at 6200 for Harley and peak torque at a higher than Cali 3250.
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^^^ Good points. I am looking forward to seeing some comparison tests in the coming months -- Guzzi vs. Harley vs. Indian -- maybe throw in a Victory, the Triumph Thunderbird, and a Japanese cruiser or two.
Meanwhile, I think what I REALLY want is the tech package in the nuovo California installed across the Big block Moto Guzzi line. A lot of people seem to want a Griso with ABS, but imagine if all of the 8V bikes had ABS plus ride-by-wire with traction control, electronic cruise control, and switchable engine maps. Mmmmmm. As much as I like the nuovo Cali, I think a Stelvio NTX with cc and tri-map would be my choice for next bike.
Is it unreasonable to think that Piaggio might do this for 2014? I don't think we have heard anything about the 2014 Moto Guzzi line-up. (Is the California 1400 considered a 2013 model or a 2014 model?)
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Low, I thought you knew something about Harleys?
A Softail uses a TCB motor with counterbalancer and different cams from a rubbermounted motor, especially the Touring models.
For 2014, Harley just released a new version of the TC103 called the "high output" with higher figures used only in Touring models.
So the French mag tested a different motor, in a different chassis. Not very applicable to this conversation.
More inportantly, did Chad post this (inserted in my quote in his post):
And older RK TC96 mcn numbers:
So MCN said they are in the same ballpark, before power was upped in the latest edition.
:beat_horse
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It's funny, but the tech package isn't a big draw for me.
But I can see why a Stelvio owner might be interested.
And jeeze, even Sportys have ABS brakes now, so yeah, I get it.
Low, thanks for making my point. I kinda figured you had no facts or experience to back up your attitude. ;-T
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Dog , are we still fighting ? If they throw a 1700 T-bird in the mix as suggested earlier , well, all else will be revealed for what they are ~;
Dusty
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Dog , are we still fighting ? If they throw a 1700 T-bird in the mix as suggested earlier , well, all else will be revealed for what they are ~;
Dusty
Oh REALLY? Well, it does appear to be a hair quicker than the Cali 1400 (again, going by MCN's numbers):
2010 T-Bird - 93 rwhp / 74 ft. lbs. / 801 lbs wet (within pounds of the Harley and Indian) / 13.31 1/4 mile.
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You guys were beginning to get along , just stirring the pot . **C ;) I am waiting for some head to head testing , so I might ignore that also . ::) Are we really arguing performance figures on a bunch of barges , what next , a roll on comparison between riding mowers . Most of these bikes will be ridden in parades at 45 MPH .
Dusty
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Standing at the finish line of a drag strip, a half-second or a second are huge distances. At 90mph a second is 117 feet, if I'm not mistaken.
However, in the real world of riding, these behemouths aren't drag racing. Mid-range roll-on performance is what's important.
Weight and gearing have a huge impact on how a bike feels. A half second on a theoretical quarter mile doesn't really mean jack.
I doubt there's much "real world" performance difference between a Chieftain and a Road Glide. Or, between a Chief Vintage and a Road King Classic.
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Standing at the finish line of a drag strip, a half-second or a second are huge distances. At 90mph a second is 117 feet, if I'm not mistaken.
However, in the real world of riding, these behemouths aren't drag racing. Mid-range roll-on performance is what's important.
Weight and gearing have a huge impact on how a bike feels. A half second on a theoretical quarter mile doesn't really mean jack.
I doubt there's much "real world" performance difference between a Chieftain and a Road Glide. Or, between a Chief Vintage and a Road King Classic.
BINGO... not to mention IF one does drag race these behemoths then state of tune and rider come into play too.
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A 650 Burgman will run an honest 115 MPH and carry a bag of groceries under the seat . My HD selling nephew works with a guy who has one , he outran several Harleys belonging to co workers in block to block match races . Just a point of reference . Pro Stock scooters anyone ? A good Pushrod Trident would run high 12 second quarter miles , and they were antiques when new .
Dusty
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A 650 Burgman will run an honest 115 MPH and carry a bag of groceries under the seat.
Funny you should mention it.
Looking into these bikes lately I got interested in capabilities - specifically bags.
I prefer the Custom to the Touring, and I don't really like the Touring bags so I'd be looking to go aftermarket - but that currently limits me to the HB C-Bow bags, and the only one I kinda care for is the Stryker. But it is only 23L.
I thought about perhaps putting bags on a Fat Bob for a smaller chassis (100 lbs less than an RK, and almost 50 lbs less than a Cali 1400 Touring), but it looks like I'd have to go with either Leather Covered Rigid bags from Harley that I THINK are listed at 19.5L or LeatherLyke bags which are (yes, you guessed it) 23L (actually 23.6L).
I don't have dimensions on the Indian bags yet, but they seem of decent size.
Harley lists the FLH bags as a total of 2.3 cu. ft. - meaning 65L total or 32.5L per side.
So the great irony is that - MY V7 with 30L HBs has more carrying capacity than the Cali 1400 Custom w/ those HBs or the Fat Bob with accessory bags, and only 2.5L less per side than the RK.
Of course my V7 ALSO has an HB topcase rack, so it has MORE CARRYING CAPACITY than any of these bikes if you don't add a topcase. :BEER:
Ah, I see the OEM fiberglass or OEM Leather covered fiberglass bags for the Cali are 35L - so they are bigger than the RK's by 2.5L per side.... not bad, though as Pete has noted the shape isn't the best.
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Burgmans and Tridents don't weigh 800 lbs.
My Sport 1100 will out run all these touring cruisers, too.
Doesn't really matter, though.
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Burgmans and Tridents don't weigh 800 lbs.
My Sport 1100 will out run all these touring cruisers, too.
Doesn't really matter, though.
True , they don't weigh 800lbs , but they have much smaller displacement also . My point is , we are getting worked up over antiquated performance figures , if one wants power and speed , buy a Rocket 3 , of course a good size inheritance will be needed to keep tires on it .
Dusty
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True , they don't weigh 800lbs , but they have much smaller displacement also . My point is , we are getting worked up over antiquated performance figures , if one wants power and speed , buy a Rocket 3 , of course a good size inheritance will be needed to keep tires on it .
Dusty
Now you're just trolling with the term "antiquated performance specs".
There's nothing "antiquated" about doing the job the bike is intended to do, and only offering a similar amount of get-up-and-go as most of the market.
Comparing the relative power/speed of touring bikes to each other is fine.
Comparing them to other segments doesn't really make a lot of sense, other than to note the relative differences in the market segments.
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if one wants power and speed , buy a Rocket 3 , Dusty
11.99 sec. @ 111.00mph is slow in the motorcycle world.
If I was drag racing, I surely wouldn't pick Triumph's big pig for the job.
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11.99 sec. @ 111.00mph is slow in the motorcycle world.
There is really a lot to like about the RIII.
It feel pretty nimble for its size, and obviously has power to spare.
But it still wouldn't be my choice because of a couple of things - not the least of which is that it is a larger engine than my car, I really don't want/need that. Not to mention the same trouble the T-bird has in my eyes - it's LC, and I just don't want that.
Still I totally get why people would like em.
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No trolling here , and I understand the different market segments , but what is baffling to me is why does everyone get all worked up over 800lb cruiser bikes that need car size engines to achieve "antiquated" performance figures
You KNOW you're getting my dander up now right? >:(
Define Performance?
The most important metric to me in a motorcycle is how a bike accomplishes the tasks to which it is going to be used.
As we already said, touring bikes aren't really meant to be racing (drag or road race) and therefore how fast it makes it to 60 or 100 or how well it might perform in a slalom test aren't really good yard sticks.
And if you call their "performance" antiquated based on the fact that they do not accomplish THOSE specific tasks as well as any bike that doesn't perform a TOURING BIKE'S SPECIFIC tasks as well, then you're being myopic in that you are looking at only one tangentially related ability to the primary purpose of the bike.
I would say these bikes DEFINE MODERN TOUR BIKE PERFORMANCE - as they offer heretofore unparalleled comfort, convenience, capabilities, safety etc. All things most relevant to their primary purpose.
That some might chose a Norge 8V for touring over them and have much more capability in the twisties or on a drag strip doesn't change that. And the great irony is that you could just as equally make the same misguided comment of "Antiquated Performance" of a Norge 8V based again on bikes that just aren't relevant to its primary purpose and it would be just as silly.
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It's simple, really. Within the design and esthetic preferences of cruiser riders, the incorporation of modern engine attributes leading to improved performance and reliability is an interesting technological development..
Just as in the automotive world, where not everybody drives a sports car, for consumers who like, say, pickup trucks, a new truck that offers better engine performance is of interest to the target audience, even if it may bore you.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free (http://tapatalk.com/m/)
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So you mean like the now discontinued 1800 VTX ? Look , never said these things bored me , kind of neutral about them really . But the reality is that most people who buy these things will not be interested in how fast they are .
Dusty
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But the reality is that most people who buy these things will not be interested in how fast they are .
Dusty
That contradicts what you said earlier...
The reality is those of us who buy these only care how fast they are relative to one another. ;)
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Saw one of the Chieftains last weekend, what a good looking bike! It'd be fun to ride one, and if the money is there, would be fun to buy one!
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Geez , I never said they have no right to exist , I merely said all of the excitement baffles me . Someone's choice in MCs is a personal matter , and many choose oversized over engined barges , fine by me . Once again , just do not understand the excitement .
Dusty
we're gettin' nowhere fast my friend...... :beat_horse
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Geez , I never said they have no right to exist , I merely said all of the excitement baffles me . Someone's choice in MCs is a personal matter , and many choose oversized over engined barges , fine by me . Once again , just do not understand the excitement .
Dusty
My Suburban does not handle as well as my Miata, nor return nearly the fuel economy.
My Miata does not tow 8400 lbs and carry six passengers and thier gear.
They both do thier jobs admirably.
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So what oil do you recommend to get good quarter mile times out of your land barge? ~;
:pop
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All these speed numbers are fine and dandy for bragging over beers and such after riding all day. But unlike sport bikes, these guys are designed to eat up miles of slab in comfort and safety. That is where the real comparisons will hold weight with the owners.
Still, a good ol' pissing contest in bar can be fun; just to have a pissing contest.
I'd really like to prefer the 1400 Cali, but the ergo's tell me the Indian is probably a better choice. The wallet says get a used Vulcan.
:winer (just noticed this graemlin, gotta use it!)
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Isn't it you who stated that lighter bikes are more fun .
Dusty
Yes. My enjoyment level goes down quickly as the weight passes 500 lbs.
For me, the perfect bike has two cylinders. Is between 450 and 500 lbs. Has between 80 and 100 bhp. And, has the ability to accept Givi or H+B luggage. I don't care what the quarter mile time is, only how quickly and comfortably it will transport my passenger and me around The Ozarks and The Rockies.
It's not a matter of my size or my strength. I "can" handle any motorcycle. I just don't "enjoy" the heavier ones as much as the lighter ones.
The '09-up Road Kings are nice. The new California 1400 is nice. I've ridden them both. The new Indian looks like it's going to be right in the fight. Heck, I even entered to win one. If I were to win an Indian, I'd probably ride it for awhile just to experience it. Don't know if I'd keep it as long as I've kept my other bikes, though...
:BEER:
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Yes. My enjoyment level goes down quickly as the weight passes 500 lbs.
For me, the perfect bike has two cylinders. Is between 450 and 500 lbs. Has between 80 and 100 bhp. And, has the ability to accept Givi or H+B luggage. I don't care what the quarter mile time is, only how quickly and comfortably it will transport my passenger and me around The Ozarks and The Rockies.
It's not a matter of my size or my strength. I "can" handle any motorcycle. I just don't "enjoy" the heavier ones as much as the lighter ones.
Honestly we probably have very similar tastes in this regard, though I might be ok with a little more weight and a little less power even on the "perfect" bike for me. Still we're closer than we are further apart.
The '09-up Road Kings are nice. The new California 1400 is nice. I've ridden them both. The new Indian looks like it's going to be right in the fight. Heck, I even entered to win one. If I were to win an Indian, I'd probably ride it for awhile just to experience it. Don't know if I'd keep it as long as I've kept my other bikes, though...
The 14+ RKs are sure to be similar to the 09-13, at least from a frame standpoint, and mostly from an engine standpoint (when did the base 103" TC motor become the standard in that chassis?). The new HO motor should have a little more umph.
And they changed a host of other things.
* The Brembo ABS brakes are now linked - though I'm told it's an electronic linking that only links under certain conditions/speeds.
* New larger (49mm) Forks.
* New saddlebag lids/latches - allow one handed operation.
* New switchgear - I THINK you can now toggle through the dash display from the handlebar and it looks like they've changed to a 1-touch hazard light.
* New lighting - LED or halogen depending on the model/application (halogens in the passing lamps on the RK, LED on some of the fairing models).
And obviously it retains the other items that made it such a versatile machine. Things like the quick detach bags and shield are great for service or for changing wind protection.
Though I'm sure some are going to chose the Indian Vintage over it - others are going to want to pass on the full fenders, fringe, and leather bags and I can understand that. I'm somewhere in the middle.
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I can also "ride" anything , and have done seat time on everything from AJS to Zundapp , even a Chang Jiang and a Mustang MC . That ain't the problem , it is the pushing part that I find objectionable about land barges , or if a foot slips on an oil patch while stopped .
Dusty
Us hackers don't worry about foot slips on oil! ;D ;D
Plus the sidecar holds a wife/SO who can push if needed.
BTW - the RK/TLE does the 1/4 in 37 seconds if I slip the clutch. ::(
Actually I 'm not sure of that time - they were resetting the traps by the time I got through. ???
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I'm sure I'm not much different than most enthusiasts. Since I was a child I e loved the ole Indians! But what then and still does draw me in was the design and engineering of the power plant. It was different and it worked. I love flatheads! I'm sure the days are gone of flatheads but that was and to many still is an Indian.
I wish with our modern technology that we COULD once again dabble into the flathead world.
The one thing I hope for the new Indian is that it IS different ; not an S&S engine or a victory engine dressed up differently. Just different!
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http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/113/16899/Motorcycle-Article/2014-Harley-Davidson-Touring-First-Rides.aspx
"(Motorcycle USA) sampled both the air- and twin-cooled 103 platforms during our test ride, with no discernable difference in performance. Throttling out of Denver on I-70 (incidentally, probably the most beautiful stretch of interstate in the entire nation) I found acceleration adequate but underwhelming. Turned out my bike was an international version, which is geared taller, for the stricter emissions and the high-speed autobahns of Europe. The U.S. version I later switched to seemed to have a little more giddy-up, although acceleration still isn’t overwhelming."
my turn :beat_horse
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HA !
Dusty
HA! You say! Let's see you take an RK / TLE through the traps at 37 seconds!!
(It was scary!)
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http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/113/16899/Motorcycle-Article/2014-Harley-Davidson-Touring-First-Rides.aspx
"(Motorcycle USA) sampled both the air- and twin-cooled 103 platforms during our test ride, with no discernable difference in performance. Throttling out of Denver on I-70 (incidentally, probably the most beautiful stretch of interstate in the entire nation) I found acceleration adequate but underwhelming. Turned out my bike was an international version, which is geared taller, for the stricter emissions and the high-speed autobahns of Europe. The U.S. version I later switched to seemed to have a little more giddy-up, although acceleration still isn’t overwhelming."
my turn :beat_horse
Wow, a fluff first impression from a jaded moto-journalist riding at altitude, it's practically a peer reviewed study. ::)
I love how you cut the last line out of your quote paragraph:
The lean mountain air probably didn’t help matters in this regard.
Or his follow up statement saying that his bike was having problems.
Still waiting for some numbers or your experience.
Get back to us when you have either.
Meanwhile the way you seem obsessed with that horse beating emoticon is starting to remind me of a play...Equus :o
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Throttling out of Denver on I-70 (incidentally, probably the most beautiful stretch of interstate in the entire nation)
Westbound I trust. Eastbound, not so much.
Really good banter on this thread. Just one stupid question: What ever happened to Ridley? As Jerry once said, "Not that there's anything wrong with that."
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Westbound I trust. Eastbound, not so much.
Really good banter on this thread. Just one stupid question: What ever happened to Ridley? As Jerry once said, "Not that there's anything wrong with that."
Sadly Ridley is no Moore .
Dusty
Edit , HD sued them successfully for 1/2 million dollars for the use of Auto Glide . Poor HD , so much for the freedom machine .
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Huh, I had no idea. Anyway, I don't recall quarter-mile times being a selling point on these bikes either.
Sorry for the drift. We now return to our regularly scheduled program.
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http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/113/16899/Motorcycle-Article/2014-Harley-Davidson-Touring-First-Rides.aspx
"(Motorcycle USA) sampled both the air- and twin-cooled 103 platforms during our test ride, with no discernable difference in performance. Throttling out of Denver on I-70 (incidentally, probably the most beautiful stretch of interstate in the entire nation) I found acceleration adequate but underwhelming. Turned out my bike was an international version, which is geared taller, for the stricter emissions and the high-speed autobahns of Europe. The U.S. version I later switched to seemed to have a little more giddy-up, although acceleration still isn’t overwhelming."
my turn :beat_horse
http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/19/16349/Motorcycle-Article/2013-Moto-Guzzi-California-1400-Custom-Review.aspx
"In its full-power setting the California (1400) springs to life, throttle response snaps, it launches with authority and pulls like a mule. Wringing out first gear will jet you up to almost 50 mph in a flash. In Veloce/Sport mode, more torque is available earlier in the rev range similar to the engine output of its American counterparts." .........
"Because at 709 pounds, it is a heavy bike. Surprisingly, this doesn’t prohibit the California from sticking like glue through sweepers and doesn’t require manhandling at parking lot speeds. The engine is a load-bearing member of the frame and the bike feels like most of its bulk is carried low and forward so it does fall into corners on some of the tighter radiuses. Its floor boards are up high and allow plenty of clearance when banked over."
of course, I've ridden this bike so the words only confirm what I already know.
seems like the Harley still performs like a Harley, no match for the Cal 14. Someone that's ridden the Cal and the Indian might let us know how they stack up. In lieu of that I tend to agree with Rocker saying that the Indian and Harley are probably pretty close.
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FYI, the "fringe" on the new Indian Chief Vintage is detachable.
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seems like the Harley still performs like a Harley, no match for the Cal 14. Someone that's ridden the Cal and the Indian might let us know how they stack up. In lieu of that I tend to agree with Rocker saying that the Indian and Harley are probably pretty close.
I did, you just didn't like what you heard.
Now ride the Indian and new Harley and get back to us.
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really?
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In Veloce/Sport mode, more torque is available earlier in the rev range similar to the engine output of its American counterparts."
hmmmmmm
Sounds familiar.
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Torque felt comparable to the new Cali 1400, so a step or 3 beyond a 2V Guzzi big block. Can't compare to current HD big twin yet, but suspect it is also comparable.
Quoted for Low. There's more in Jay's and my initial reports, but pulling out quotes on the phone is a pia.
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I just got the following email from Indian Motorcycles of North NJ. I find it interesting that nearly 9% of the attendees actually placed orders. That is very encouraging for Indian. I wish them well.
(https://pi54.com/email/lead_mgmt_system/ind/my14/ind_2014_logo_151x53.png)
(https://pi54.com/email/lead_mgmt_system/ind/my14/ind_lms_primary_2014_a_new_era.jpg)
Thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule to experience the all-new 2014 Indian Chief motorcycles, powered by the Thunder Stroke 111 Engine. Your participation during our two day Demo Event contributed to making our event a huge success. Over 350 people experienced the effortless handling, smooth operation, unmatched performance and shear pleasure of the new 2014 Indian Chief motorcycles. (Classic, Vintage & Chieftain). Nearly 9% of attendees placed orders for one of the three models. 75% of our customers ordered the Indian Chief Vintage.
My team and I, like you, are life-long motorcycle enthusiast and are extremely passionate about Indian Motorcycles . Today, with Polaris behind the brand, Indian Motorcycle brings a CHOICE for every V-Twin rider.
If you are considering an Indian motorcycle in the future, we want your purchase to be an exciting experience. We offer number of incentives, including special financing rates that will assist in making your purchase an over-all win-win.
Please contact us with questions, suggestions and your overall experience input . Your candid feedback enables us to continue to be your #1 Indian Motorcycle dealership. We want to ensure your day was as extraordinary as ours.
Throughout the year we host a number of rides and events here at Indian Motorcycle of Northern New Jersey, which can be found on our website at www.indian-nj.com.
We look forward to speaking with you. Please stop by or call for your personalized quote.
Regards,
Stephen M. Waite
Vice President / General Manager
Mack Powersports Corp. / Indian Motorcycle of Northern New Jersey
2365 US HWY 22 West
Union, NJ 07083
website: www.indian-nj.com
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That's 22 orders in one weekend, not a bad start.
Hopefully that doesn't just represent the pent up back log of interest, as they'll need to keep selling to stay in business, but that's a nice start.
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Always amazes me when Guzzi guys get wrapped up in numbers. I don't think any of us ride our old ditch pumps because of numbers so why the bickering? Ride the Indian before you fall in love or bitch about performance. You will never know the character if you don't ride one. If you need to go well over 100mph you should be looking at sport bikes not cruisers.
Hmmm...
-Kevin
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That's 22 orders in one weekend, not a bad start.
Hopefully that doesn't just represent the pent up back log of interest, as they'll need to keep selling to stay in business, but that's a nice start.
Uh, 9% is around 31 orders. :BEER:
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Always amazes me when Guzzi guys get wrapped up in numbers. I don't think any of us ride our old ditch pumps because of numbers so why the bickering? Ride the Indian before you fall in love or bitch about performance. You will never know the character if you don't ride one. If you need to go well over 100mph you should be looking at sport bikes not cruisers.
Hmmm...
-Kevin
It definitely has character. And lots of torque -- didn't I mention torque? ;D
The motor is also one of the best looking motors on any bike on the market, period.
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ha ha, either I got a different email (unlikely) or I read too fast (thought it said 250)....oops.
As Papa would say "that's more better".
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Well, our big biker rally was this week. Bikes, Blues, & BBQ. Anyway, I really wanted to see the new Indians. Unfortunately, this evening I got there too late, and they were packed and ready to head to the next event...
(http://rocker59.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/2013-September-21-BB/i-HBhr88r/0/L/DSCN9603-L.jpg)
Maybe next time...
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That's the lowest ground clearance of a trailer I have ever seen !!! :o ::)
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I bet once the air compressor came on, it rose up a bit. I would have tried to finagle a private tour in the trailer, but maybe you did that.
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Stopped by the Harley open house Thursday on our way out of town for a long weekend of riding.
I was hoping to demo the latest RK to compare it to the Cali and Indian, but they didn't have the standard RK available (only the Screaming Eagle 110" version) and there was already a waiting list 3-4 hours long.
So instead I took out the Dyna Fat Bob (only Dyna with dual discs) and a Sportster 48 with the new brakes and ABS.
The Dyna was very nice. Decent power, maybe a hair less than the Cali or Indian, but not enough that it would matter. Handled great, though the forward controls suck due to foot position and the fact that my right knee would have to sit against the air cleaner all the time with that peg setup.
As much as I liked the Indian, it's REALLY more bike than I want/need.
I could see making the Fat Bob a tourer that would be more right-sized for me.
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What about the "48" ? To painful to report on ?
Dusty
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:pop
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OK , I was just commenting on Kev M being tall . ;)
Dusty
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What about the "48" ? To painful to report on ?
Dusty
Actually, the Sportster remains my first choice in a Harley both for the smaller size and more simple/robust motor of more reasonable size.
The 48 suspension was not nearly as bad as I've been lead to believe, though cornering clearance was more compromised than I'd like. I'm sure it could be improved nicely with a set of progressive shocks in slightly longer bodies.
The real gem was the reason I wanted to ride it in the first place, the new brake system.
It should be noted that MCN has previously shown a 1200N with single 2-pot Nissin brake to stop in a shorter distance than some late-model R1200GS bikes they've tested, but I was not satisfied with feel or bite with that braking system, so I went to the duals used on the XL R models.
For 2014 models Harley increased the size of the rotors and calipers on the Sportsters, as well as revising the master cylinder sizes and adding braided steel brake lines. The result is a much better brake system that feels as strong (relative to bike size) as the 4-pot Brembo on the V7.
I could probably live with the new single disc setup ...even in the new electronically linked ABS version.
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So last weekend my wife and I again went down to TN for me to (again) test drive one of the wonderful V7 models. Got some seat time on a new Special. What a delight. On the floor they still had 3 different old stock V7s that apparently were just not selling despite mark downs. The dealer (Sloan's) carries lots of bikes including Polaris/Victory/Indian. They have completely remodeled an entire wing of their dealership in preparation for the arrival of the new Indians. T-shirts, old Indians, and memorabilia adorn the place. When I asked the guy said they already have 21 sold and obviously don't even have a single bike in yet. He said they brought the new bikes by for show and they expected some turn out but nowhere near the 200 folks who showed up to see them. Said they sold 7 that day.
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They certainly had a large sales campaign. This time next year we should know if they fulfilled the expectations the company set.
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I'd be a serious buyer for one... down the road.
I know it's their stock-in-trade aesthetic but I'd be waiting for the aftermarket to allow me to un-ass those fenders, front and rear.
Another sticking point for me is that I've learned and apparently had to re-learn - repeatedly, to not dive into major model year changes let alone an all new design.
I no longer have the tolerance to be an unwitting member of a de-facto focus group or an un-paid member of a manufacturer's post production R&D team.
Wrinkles gone or proven to be non-existant in the first place, a way to address the excess of body work acreage and a tank to conceal that billboard sized headstock and I could see giving up the Calvin for one of the "Classic" models.
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I was recently at the local Victory (Honda & Yamaha) dealer and asked them if they were taking on Indian. The salesman told me "no, Indian wants a stand alone dealer."
I guess they gave me a line of BS. No Indian dealer here in OKC. I would like to ride one. (I doubt if I'd like at as well as the Cal 14 but I ain't buying now anyway.)
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Maybe Indian didn't want that particular dealer for some reason. I've seen some pretty whacko stuff pulled on dealers in other product lines.
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prolly
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John, reading between lines, the Victory dealer you are refering to also has Ural, Royal Enfield, and several scooter lines to go with Victory, Yamaha, and Honda. Pretty wide selection already.
Have you checked with the Victory dealer in Jones? They carry Can-Am (had a bunch of Spiders in stock last time I was there) along with Polaris (I think). That might be the best bet for an established local dealer to pickup Indian, but they are definitely not a boutique type of place.
What does Indian seem to want their dealers to look like, fancy superstore, Mom & Pop type, or ...?
Darren
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Unless you just have to be the first kid on the block to have one, I would wait a year or three. :BEER:
Matt
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I'm not sure why Sloan's got the franchise and others didn't. They are a huge multi brand dealer: Yamaha, Victory, Guzzi, KTM, Suzuki, Vespa, Piaggio, Polaris, and Kymco. Maybe they mainly got it because there is a giant, seemingly uber successful Harley dealer about 100 yards away?
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When I asked the guy said they already have 21 sold and obviously don't even have a single bike in yet. He said they brought the new bikes by for show and they expected some turn out but nowhere near the 200 folks who showed up to see them. Said they sold 7 that day.
That's exactly like what I've heard from the stand alone dealer in northern NJ.
The salesman told me "no, Indian wants a stand alone dealer."
I guess they gave me a line of BS.
Yup definite line of BS.
Of the 3 closest dealers to me, 2 are NOT stand alone
50 miles away:
http://www.hernleys.com/ is Polaris, Victory, Indian
231 miles away:
http://www.menneto.com/ is Victory, Polaris, Yamaha, Indian
The only stand alone is:
100 miles away:
http://www.indian-nj.com/
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Unless you just have to be the first kid on the block to have one, I would wait a year or three. :BEER:
Matt
Or six or eight. To me, they don't look any different than any of the HD or metric V-twin cruiser/touring bikes. Big, heavy bike, V-twin, lots of bells and farkles, laid-back seating position to kill my back, limited ground clearance, and you see yourself coming the other way 50 times a day ... ?
I've never seen the draw.
Lannis
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October 19-20 @ Victory / Indian of Scottsdale, AZ in the Airpark. 8)
The Indian demo truck will be here and we will be test riding the new bike! :) I signed up for the Chieftain! :)
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That's exactly like what I've heard from the stand alone dealer in northern NJ.
Yup definite line of BS.
Of the 3 closest dealers to me, 2 are NOT stand alone
50 miles away:
http://www.hernleys.com/ is Polaris, Victory, Indian
231 miles away:
http://www.menneto.com/ is Victory, Polaris, Yamaha, Indian
The only stand alone is:
100 miles away:
http://www.indian-nj.com/
Menneto's is owned by the brother of the VP in charge of Indian Motorcycles so I doubt they will experience problems getting bikes.
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I know it's their stock-in-trade aesthetic but I'd be waiting for the aftermarket to allow me to un-ass those fenders, front and rear.
As you note, it's their aesthetic... but un-assing* those fenders would simply make the Indian look like any other V twin on the road. And I'm not sure it has any cool technology or features that distinguish it from, say, a Yamaha Star or Harley Deluxe. That said, I hope Indian has a hit. Lots of room for motorcycles of all kinds out there.
*a verb form I will likely never use again in my life
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Remember, Indian is Polaris/Victory.
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IMHO, they shoulda built the bike around an inline 4.
Agreed - that would have been a unique standout from all of the other V twin cruisers.
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October 19-20 @ Victory / Indian of Scottsdale, AZ in the Airpark. 8)
The Indian demo truck will be here and we will be test riding the new bike! :) I signed up for the Chieftain! :)
If it's run the same way it won't matter what you signed up for - they give a safety briefing before each ride and then it's a "go get on a bike" free-for all.
So listen to about HALF the briefing keeping yourself between the group and the bikes, then make a brake for it to grab one of the few Chieftains. ;-T
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I'm not sure it has any cool technology or features that distinguish it from, say, a Yamaha Star or Harley Deluxe.
Well the cast Aluminum frame is kinda cool, especially with the integrated cold air intake.
The non-linked ABS is kinda cool.
I couldn't see the brakes because of said fenders (there are bolted panels with access ports though), but I THINK Victory is using Brembos so I would suspect that's what Indian would be using (and I that's somewhat distinguishing it from the Star bikes right?).
And I BELIEVE that Indian is using some of the same strategies that Victory uses to help make their bikes arguably more durable than Harleys. For instance, mounting the stator coil on the finned primary cover, instead of deeper in on the cases where it would be hotter. And I also believe the Indian uses a gear driven primary (no primary chain like the Harleys).
Not to mention the Chieftain has remote locking hard bags and an electrically adjustable windshield, both unique to the market segment.
So I think they are distinguishing themselves.
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looks like they have a ways to go setting up dealerships, in my area Arkansas, Nebraska and Houston TX are nearest.
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looks like they have a ways to go setting up dealerships, in my area Arkansas, Nebraska and Houston TX are nearest.
And that dealer is in Sherwood or Jacksonville. I'm as close to OKC as I am to that dealer!
I guess the knuckleheads at our local NWA Victory dealer didn't step up.
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The article in the local paper (take that for what it's worth) said the Indian dealer here in Erie, PA (Off-Road Express - Victory, Yamaha, Suzuki, Polaris superstore, + Suzuki cars) was on board before anyone in Pittsburgh, Cleveland, or Buffalo. We're about equidistant between the 3 of them.
The demo truck will be here Tue/ Wed this week. I can't decide if it's worth giving up overtime to stop in, or if my departed Father-in-Law (a devoted "old" Indian fan) would approve or disapprove. (If he were here there would be no doubt.....)
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So last weekend my wife and I again went down to TN for me to (again) test drive one of the wonderful V7 models. Got some seat time on a new Special. What a delight. On the floor they still had 3 different old stock V7s that apparently were just not selling despite mark downs. The dealer (Sloan's) carries lots of bikes including Polaris/Victory/Indian. They have completely remodeled an entire wing of their dealership in preparation for the arrival of the new Indians. T-shirts, old Indians, and memorabilia adorn the place. When I asked the guy said they already have 21 sold and obviously don't even have a single bike in yet. He said they brought the new bikes by for show and they expected some turn out but nowhere near the 200 folks who showed up to see them. Said they sold 7 that day.
The day I went (demo day), they said they had 9 orders by the end of the day from that dealer. Not bad. I think only 60-70 people test rode. Very nice bike, for a cruiser that is (not a cruiser guy anymore).
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Pulled into a parking lot today, and saw a new Indian pull up and park. It had Mn. plates. Talked briefly with the rider, he was less than talkative. Seems he was working for Motorcyclist magazine, and he was doing a long term test ride.
I REALLY want to be a fan of Indian, and I really like what I have read, and I liked the pictures of the engine.
In person, meh.
I didn't have the time to inspect the veh. closely, but the valve covers were obviously die cast or injection cast or some such. Looked like Aluminum. Really long neck, btwn the tank and steering head. Kinda cheesy decal on the tank.
Maybe I'm being hyper critical because the rider was kind of, well.....
I hope they do well, and I get to look at one closely at my leisure.
After work, rode the B1100 home. Like the song says I love my bike.
kjf
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Interesting. I suppose I want to be a fan too. Not sure it will happen at this point. Indian will offer demo rides at the upcoming International Motorcycle Show Oct 25-27 in San Mateo. It's close to two hours to get there for me, I'm planning to go Saturday. Another chance to demo ride Dec 6-8 at the show in Long Beach.
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I've been looking forward to seeing one because I want to love them too. There is something about the photos that I haven't liked, but can't quite place it. I was hoping that seeing one in person would let me figure it out.
I have a friend here that ordered one in August and tells me that the customer service in the ordering process so far has been horrible. They keep giving him random conflicting dates for delivery and he still doesn't have it. He tells me this seems to be quite common with early buyers so far. I want them to succeed....
Sam
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I'm the opposite - I liked em better in person...
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During the Indian Demo Truck visit to Scottsdale, AZ, I rode the new Vintage and Chieftain recently. I was really impressed with both of them. The motor / transmission is smooth. The handling / brakes are great. The sitting position / comfort factor is excellent. The fit / finish is great. I would have no problem owning and riding one :)
Polaris hit a home run with these bikes (IMHO). :) 8) ;-T ;-T
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Now I'm really looking forward to seeing one. Might have to take a ride to NC to the nearest dealer to visit one soon.
Sam
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Saw one months ago, a Cheiftan I think with the hardbags. Looked great in person, could be a bit louder, and if I did get a new bike I think this would be it for a cruiser.
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I decided to ride one the day after JJ. Too short of a ride to get used to the forward controls. My legs did not like being strung out front. Acceleration was sedate. But she tracked very nicely; was smooth, a nice bike. Ergo's were not that great for me (36" inseam, long arms, skinny bum) and while I really wanted to like it after just sitting on one; the test ride proved that the 1400 California may be more my liking; but I suspect I'm just not a cruiser kinda guy.
It sure made my Griso seem small though!
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During the Indian Demo Truck visit to Scottsdale, AZ, I rode the new Vintage and Chieftain recently. I was really impressed with both of them. The motor / transmission is smooth. The handling / brakes are great. The sitting position / comfort factor is excellent. The fit / finish is great. I would have no problem owning and riding one :)
Polaris hit a home run with these bikes (IMHO). :) 8) ;-T ;-T
:+1 My experience on the Chieftain was much the same. No reason to not buy one if this is the style and size machine you are looking for.
My Stelvio felt like a sport bike on the way home. ;D
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With a weight of close to 800, can one person put it back on its wheels if it falls over?
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With a weight of close to 800, can one person put it back on its wheels if it falls over?
Yes, I've picked up a 700 lbs. Harley and I've seen women half my size pick up a 600 lbs. Harley.
It's all in the center of gravity and the technique.
In all cases you're levering it up, not bench pressing it.
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With a weight of close to 800, can one person put it back on its wheels if it falls over?
I wonder how far it can fall. Some of these designs these days have wonderful limiting built in - as well as stopping them part way most of the time, they offer two stage lifting if it does go all the way.
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Yes, I've picked up a 700 lbs. Harley and I've seen women half my size pick up a 600 lbs. Harley.
It's all in the center of gravity and the technique.
In all cases you're levering it up, not bench pressing it.
:+1
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Saw a guy riding a new Indian on Saturday. There's a dealership a mile from my house. Pretty bike, but so much garbage on it. Fairing, fifty gauges, stereo, DVD, radar, makeup table, barbecue grill...
I think they really ruined it. Am I the only one who likes a little less junk on a bike?
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Saw a guy riding a new Indian on Saturday. There's a dealership a mile from my house. Pretty bike, but so much garbage on it. Fairing, fifty gauges, stereo, DVD, radar, makeup table, barbecue grill...
I think they really ruined it. Am I the only one who likes a little less junk on a bike?
Ruined what? They didn't exist, and a new company developed what (according to the response I've seen) is exactly what most buyers in that market want.
Personally I thought it rode and handled great, the tech is arguably smarter than Harley, and the similar models (Vintage and Classic) have no more "garbage" on them than a Cali 1400.
Now that said, yeah, they're big and arguably a bit excessive, but again, most here feel that away about the Cali too.
ME? I get them, even if my priorities mean that I tour on a V7 these days (and happily so). But I could own one also...
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Somewhere in Cycle World someone suggested that Polaris should offer a new Indian Scout, as a lighter, better handling, sportier bike in the under-$10,000 range. He might be right. The Sportster does that for Harley, after all.
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I think the main problem is that people who don't like what I like are just wrong.
My other bike is an FLSTC. I really like it, but it's not a motorcycle. It's a parade float. It's like riding a couch down a water slide greased with lard.
I'll give Harley credit. Everything on it works. The fit and finish are great. It shifts like Rolex made the transmission. With the Jackal, shifting is always a spirited discussion.
I have a lot of respect for Polaris. I would love to have a Victory, but I don't want another barge. I would want to clean it up.
They're a little ugly, but I'm sure that can be overcome.
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Somewhere in Cycle World someone suggested that Polaris should offer a new Indian Scout, as a lighter, better handling, sportier bike in the under-$10,000 range. He might be right. The Sportster does that for Harley, after all.
I agree - that said, Sportys make up only about 20% of Harley's sales - though that's a good 50-80k bikes/year.
My other bike is an FLSTC. I really like it, but it's not a motorcycle. It's a parade float. It's like riding a couch down a water slide greased with lard.
I'll give Harley credit. Everything on it works. The fit and finish are great. It shifts like Rolex made the transmission. With the Jackal, shifting is always a spirited discussion.
I have a lot of respect for Polaris. I would love to have a Victory, but I don't want another barge. I would want to clean it up.
They're a little ugly, but I'm sure that can be overcome.
Question for you, what other Harley's have you ridden? How about the Indian or Victories?
I'm asking just in case the FLSTC is your only point of reference.
The current FLH models handle quite well and are much less "ponderous" than FL Softails. Completely different steering geometry and lean angles.
Most Dynas handle quite well too, very close to Cali abilities.
And our XL1200Lr is basically the same weight, with slightly shorter wheelbase, than my old Jackal and handles just as well, with same or more power.
I guess I'm just saying there's more to the story and a lot of people assume it's all one flavor. Perhaps more of a variant on the flavor (like Guzzi) but still more to it.
The Victories and Indian I rode this year all handled pretty well, some better than others, but there's a lot to like there too.
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I'm saying that if I were to GET a Victory, it would not be a big overstuffed model. I realize they make different types.
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I've heard the BBQ grill option is quite popular in the South ;D PH , you are an honest HD rider , nothing wrong with the big ones , but they are "parade floats". Yeah , shifting my Jackal can also be an adventure , keeps me alert :D
Dusty
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I'm saying that if I were to GET a Victory, it would not be a big overstuffed model. I realize they make different types.
Well, one might argue even the Judge is still a pretty big stuffed model, just no stock bags or windshield.
But yeah, the tube frame models are a little smaller
- Judge 691 lbs wet, only 4.7 in ground clearance, 64.8 in wheelbase, 92 in overall length
though ironically the case aluminum frame models may handle better in some the real world (I didn't scrape anything on them during the test rides when I scraped with the Judge due to lower height) but they are bigger.
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WOW ! 14 pages discussing the new Polarindian . ;D Do you think there is a Polaris or Indian forum somewhere with even 2 pages discussing the 1400 Cali :D
One thing for sure , they are garnering plenty of free press . Carry on .
Dusty
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I think people have never really gotten over the death of Indian. It was such a shame.
The new bikes aren't Indians, but at least they revive the style to some extent, and to enjoy one, you don't have to find a rusty old fender, add 350 repro parts to it, and pretend it's a restored bike. I believe this explains the interest.
PH , you are an honest HD rider , nothing wrong with the big ones , but they are "parade floats". Yeah , shifting my Jackal can also be an adventure , keeps me alert :D
Dusty
I don't take it personally when someone comments on a brand. I don't make them! Might as well be honest about what you ride. They all have good points and bad.
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The new bikes aren't Indians
As argued earlier in this thread, that's a ridiculous opinion.
It is akin to any time someone uses the term "real" in the context of defining the relative merit of someone or something without literally meaning illegal "counterfeit".
It's like someone calling the new Triumphs, or even the new Moto Guzzis not real or actual examples of that brand just because of different owners in the lineage. Or not an actual "Jeep" cause of Fiat's involvement or ....
Brand is really what it comes down to.
And Polaris has not only purchased the rights to the brand, they have taken great pains in creating what the public perceives the company might still be producing today if it had not gone out of business (multiple times).
They've done a great job of replicating ONE of the iconic looks of the bikes from that original company.
As such, they're as real or actual as anything on the market today.
Though some may wish for more (variety, engine types etc.) and that is certainly fair.
But that doesn't devalue the current efforts in any way.
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all of this is merely opinion , ridiculous or not ,
Of course...
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As argued earlier in this thread, that's a ridiculous opinion.
There's nothing ridiculous about it. It's a hundred percent correct. You couldn't be more wrong. Indian died in 1953. The factories are gone. The tooling is gone. The engineers are gone. They don't make or stock parts for real Indians. They don't pay pensions to their old workers, if any are still alive. You can't sue them; courts recognize that the new company is completely different, even if you don't. It even has a new name. It's not "Indian Moto Cycle."
They don't even have the features that made Indians different from Harley-Davidsons. They're just upscale Harley clones with Indian labels. If anything, they're a reminder that Harley crushed Indian in every way. The only thing that survives is a pair of fender skirts on a bike based on a Harley. Indian hasn't been doing R&D since 1953. It's actually relying on R&D Harley-Davidson did during that time.
I could open a garage tomorrow and start building cars from scratch and call them Hudsons or Studebakers, but it would be a fantasy.
If the label is all that matters, you could buy a Heritage Springer and paint "INDIAN" on the tank. It's as much of an Indian as these new bikes, and it's cheaper and probably more reliable.
It reminds me of Abercrombie & Fitch. It used to be a great store, with products you couldn't find anywhere else. If you wanted to go on a safari with your own bearers, you could walk into Abercrombie's, and they would set you up. Then it turned into something like American Eagle Outfitters. Now it's a bizarre brand aimed at teens, and there is no relationship whatsoever to the real A&C. Different owners. Different vendors. It's a fake. The same thing is going on with Bell & Howell. You can buy cheap, crappy products labeled "Bell & Howell" now, but they have nothing to do with the quality products the real Bell & Howell made. You can actually pay the people who own the name, and they'll let you put it on your junk.
Harley-Davidson has an unbroken history going back over a hundred years. The company has been bought and sold, but it never disappeared completely, the way Indian did. They sell parts for old bikes. They probably have collective bargaining agreements and other contracts that go back a long time, and which they have to honor. They have to worry about lawsuits involving things that happened ten or twenty years ago, because they can't claim they're not the old Harley-Davidson.
I like the term "Pretindian." That's what these bikes are. They're not Indians. They're a tribute to Indians.
I should put a piece of tape on my Jackal and write "INDIAN" on it. Then I could say I have a 2000 Indian. Better yet, I'll just change my name to "Indian Chief."
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They don't even have the features that made Indians different from Harley-Davidsons. They're just upscale Harley clones with Indian labels....The only thing that survives is a pair of fender skirts on a bike based on a Harley. Indian hasn't been doing R&D since 1953. It's actually relying on R&D Harley-Davidson did during that time.
You are entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts. The quoted portion is, factually, incorrect.
Polaris has sunk a lot of R&D effort into projecting Indian forward. It's as good an interpretation of what Indian would have produced now if the company had a history of continuous production as anything that could be done today, given the state of the art and market forces.
Aside from that, the new bikes are in no way Harley clones. Maybe you are thinking of the Gilroy Indians?
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PH , we have been having this discussion for several months , and Kev M is only expressing his opinion . I can argue both sides , and even though I largely agree it is a marketing ploy , Polaris did spend lots of money and resources to create a MC . The new Polarindian is not a Harley clone , even though the aesthetics are similar , the bikes are very different .
Dusty
Edit :pop
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There's nothing ridiculous about it. It's a hundred percent correct. You couldn't be more wrong.
Actually I couldn't be more right. The company legally has the right to the brand and product name, therefore game, set, match.
You can't sue them; courts recognize that the new company is completely different, even if you don't. It even has a new name. It's not "Indian Moto Cycle."
Can you really sue Harley today for something they did in 1953? Good luck with that.
No really, I understand and accept your point that it is NOT the original company. NO ONE believes it is. That's not the point. That doesn't make it a legitimate restart in the spirit and style of the original.
They don't even have the features that made Indians different from Harley-Davidsons. They're just upscale Harley clones with Indian labels. If anything, they're a reminder that Harley crushed Indian in every way. The only thing that survives is a pair of fender skirts on a bike based on a Harley. Indian hasn't been doing R&D since 1953. It's actually relying on R&D Harley-Davidson did during that time.
They don't have the features? Two wheels, two-cylinder :D no seroisly, a V-twin (styled like a sidevalve motor), with full fenders - no they certainly have Indian specific features.
The bike is NOT based on a Harley anymore than the Cali, or the T-Bird, or VTX is "based" on a Harley.
IT's NOT A shared crankpin
IT's NOT a primary chain motor
IT's NOT a 45 degree V
How many Harleys have the air intake molded into the cast aluminum frame?
Oh yeah, Harleys don't use cast aluminum frames.
I could open a garage tomorrow and start building cars from scratch and call them Hudsons or Studebakers, but it would be a fantasy.
Well, you COULD, but you wouldn't be legally able to do that, so it would be completely different.
If the label is all that matters, you could buy a Heritage Springer and paint "INDIAN" on the tank. It's as much of an Indian as these new bikes, and it's cheaper and probably more reliable.
You don't really keep up on motorcycle technical issues, service, or specifications do you eh?
You think a springer front end Harley Softail with a single pot disc brake is in someway comparable to a new Indian with dual 4-pot Brembos and ABS?
Nevermind Victory's reputation for reliability and ease of maintenance which looks like a Honda compared to certain late-model Harleys (like any BT TC88 motor except the 06 Dyna).
Now the Gilroy Indian Clones with S&S motors, well, that was another thing, you might have had a point then, but nothing you said applies to the new models.
Harley-Davidson has an unbroken history going back over a hundred years. The company has been bought and sold, but it never disappeared completely, the way Indian did. They sell parts for old bikes. They probably have collective bargaining agreements and other contracts that go back a long time, and which they have to honor. They have to worry about lawsuits involving things that happened ten or twenty years ago, because they can't claim they're not the old Harley-Davidson.
Actually (and sadly) Harley modernized their parts obsoletion program over a decade ago, they don't carry or sell much for old bikes. VERY little for any Shovel or Ironhead, not a lot more for a number of EVOs. But even so, sure they have an unbroken history. So that means what exactly? They are "real" and anything that doesn't have over 100 years unbroken history is fake? Triumph is fake too? Guzzi is real because they have the same factory? Really? :D
I like the term "Pretindian." That's what these bikes are. They're not Indians. They're a tribute to Indians.
I should put a piece of tape on my Jackal and write "INDIAN" on it. Then I could say I have a 2000 Indian. Better yet, I'll just change my name to "Indian Chief."
::) ::) ::)
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Actually I couldn't be more right. The company legally has the right to the brand and product name, therefore game, set, match.
Wow, can I win an argument by saying "game, set, and match?" Then GAME, SET, and MATCH. INFINITY AND NO TAGS BACK! You didn't see that coming, did you?! Don't mess with a guy who watches Pee Wee Herman.
The product name doesn't make it a real Indian. And if it did, the real name is "Indian Moto Cycle," so they don't have the real name. GAME!
I can't even find "Indian Moto Cycle" on the PTO site. I wonder if I can buy it and then resell it to them.
Can you really sue Harley today for something they did in 1953? Good luck with that.
Well, I'm a lawyer. So here is the answer: it depends. Anyone who says otherwise, without research, is not much of an attorney. It's very unlikely, but it's impossible to say without careful research, and there are many circumstances under which a statute of limitations will be tolled by a court. Suing the original Indian company, however, is definitely not possible. It doesn't exist. They have no registered service agent. You can definitely sue them for things that happened before the new Pretindian company was formed, and there was probably never a lapse in liability. GAME!
No really, I understand and accept your point that it is NOT the original company. NO ONE believes it is. That's not the point. That doesn't make it a legitimate restart in the spirit and style of the original.
That's true, and I hope they sell ten billion bikes. I would love to have a Vintage Chief. But it's not a real Indian.
The bike is NOT based on a Harley anymore than the Cali, or the T-Bird, or VTX is "based" on a Harley.
Transverse 90° motor...not even close. From a hundred yards, a new "Indian" looks very much like a Harley, however. GAME! SET! MATCH! DOUBLE MATCH!
Nevermind Victory's reputation for reliability and ease of maintenance which looks like a Honda compared to certain late-model Harleys (like any BT TC88 motor except the 06 Dyna).
I agree with the never mind part. I have never read anything bad about Polaris reliability, but since it's irrelevant: GAME! SET! MATCH! SERIES! SEASON!
There is much more to a brand than a name. The power of the brand is based largely on history and continuity of management, employees, designers, etc. Harley and other brands have most of those things or at least a few. Indian? Not so much.
Sure, they have the legal right to call it an Indian. They could also call it an SR71, since that's not a trademark. Doesn't mean it came from the Skunkworks.
I'm just going to type GAME GAME GAME from now on. Much easier.
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Oh hell , another lawyer ;D I am just kidding . Can I sue BMW for the fact my /5 has started leaking oil ?
Dusty
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Everybody hates lawyers. I totally understand that. But if you think we're dishonest and sadistic, you should see our clients.
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It would be my guess from reading this last page that someone here doesn't have enough money to buy one of the new Indians,
So in traditional gay pirate attitude they have decided the best thing is to bad mouth them to people who like them.
To that person or others who do this I say, Take your complaints to the illgloomy site where they will be appreciated.
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Everybody hates lawyers. I totally understand that. But if you think we're dishonest and sadistic, you should see our clients.
I don't hate lawyers , had one for dinner last night ;D Seriously , one of my best friends is an attorney , no preconceived notions from me regarding councilors at law . Funny thing , never really needed representation , my divorce attorney represented both of us . Hmm , maybe that is why she got everything . Do over , do over .
Dusty
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I don't hate lawyers , had one for dinner last night ;D Seriously , one of my best friends is an attorney , no preconceived notions from me regarding councilors at law . Funny thing , never really needed representation , my divorce attorney represented both of us . Hmm , maybe that is why she got everything . Do over , do over .
Dusty
My mom got the same deal, and it worked out pretty much the same for her, only not on the good end. I'm not crazy about lawyers, myself. But it's good to have the degree. Beats digging a ditch.
It would be my guess from reading this last page that someone here doesn't have enough money to buy one of the new Indians,
So in traditional gay pirate attitude they have decided the best thing is to bad mouth them to people who like them.
To that person or others who do this I say, Take your complaints to the illgloomy site where they will be appreciated.
GAY PIRATES! WOW! THAT MUST BE ONE COOL WEBSITE!
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There are oil threads and now there are Indian threads. ::)
About the only way to set this to rest is to wait twenty years and see how Polaris is doing with the brand (like Triumph has down with their brand). Not only will we have a track record; I suspect many that have a dog in this race will no longer care. ::)
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Ohhhhh puuhhhlease....
The value of a brand is:
1. The name
2. The product
3. The company behind the name, but even then only if someone gives a crap (and most consumers don't).
And do new Indians look like Harleys? Only to people who don't know or care about Motorcycles. Remember that most of the US thinks there are Harleys and sportbikes.
Plenty of people call Guzzis "Harleys".
So again, what does the rebirth of Indian represent? Just what the ads say "Choice is coming to American motorcycles".
Seriously someone would have to be blind or ignoring the significant tech differences to miss how these are not clone bikes.
And most importantly they are actual physical motorcycles that one can buy and ride that are designed with the visual heritage of some historical Indian models, from a company called Indian, sooo they are as "real" as any Harley, Guzzi, Ducati, Triumph, or Honda despite disjointed heritage.
To call it otherwise is to assume a position somewhere between elitist and pedantic.
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There are oil threads and now there are Indian threads. ::)
About the only way to set this to rest is to wait twenty years and see how Polaris is doing with the brand (like Triumph has down with their brand). Not only will we have a track record; I suspect many that have a dog in this race will no longer care. ::)
Is that a "real" Triumph you reference? :D
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Remember that most of the US thinks there are Harleys and sportbikes.
I'll take that one step farther, most of the US thinks there are Harleys and the the big four Japanese brands. If it's not one of those five, they've never heard of it. The local guy who does vehicle safely inspections is the nicest guy in the world. He's in his 80s and has been inspecting cars and the occasional motorcycle for decades, but of course he'd never heard of Moto Guzzi.
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Man, I was hoping not to have to do this, but you're making me pull out the big gun.
(http://i840.photobucket.com/albums/zz329/TheNewSteveH/110413motoguzziindian_zpsbcdded01.jpg)
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A post that actually made me laugh out loud.
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Kev is just mad at me about the chin beard thing. I'm pretty sure I said I was sorry.
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Kev is just mad at me about the chin beard thing. I'm pretty sure I said I was sorry.
:D ;) :D
And FWIW, I'm happy with the friendly debate.
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Well that ruined the whole thing. :BEER:
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PH , we have been having this discussion for several months , and Kev M is only expressing his opinion . I can argue both sides , and even though I largely agree it is a marketing ploy , Polaris did spend lots of money and resources to create a MC . The new Polarindian is not a Harley clone , even though the aesthetics are similar , the bikes are very different .
Dusty
Edit :pop
I'll make one point about Harley vs the (new) Indian (PolarIndain LMAO).
It took Harley 4 years (record time for Harley) to update their existing models to the "Rushmore" design. This is their fast turn around, market-oriented evolutionary (evo?) approach that produced water cooled the Harleys.
Polaris designed & produced the new Indian from the ground up in 3 years.
this point provided with no additional comment. :pop
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LR , when I first coined Polarindian several months ago , someone suggested that would make it an Eskimo . Thought it really funny .
Dusty
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;D
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If Moto Guzzi had bought up the Indian brand first....
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/1187118689-triking-engine_zpsb557fd32.jpg)
:D
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the new bikes are in no way Harley clones. Maybe you are thinking of the Gilroy Indians?
:+1
He's just ranting and trolling.
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Always easier to toss out a flippant criticism of someone's remarks than to respond thoughtfully.
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I'll make one point about Harley vs the (new) Indian (PolarIndain LMAO).
It took Harley 4 years (record time for Harley) to update their existing models to the "Rushmore" design. This is their fast turn around, market-oriented evolutionary (evo?) approach that produced water cooled the Harleys.
Polaris designed & produced the new Indian from the ground up in 3 years.
That's why it was called "Project Rushmore." Harley-Davidson might have been able to revamp their line-up in less time, but management asked, "Why should we rush more?"
(http://www.svrider.com/forum/images/smilies/rimshot.gif)
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Always easier to toss out a flippant criticism of someone's remarks than to respond thoughtfully.
True. I'm not sure who's supposed to be ranting and trolling in this thread ... ?
I hope it's not whoever is taking the position that these "Indians" look pretty much like Harleys, or any of the Harley jap-a-clones ... Big fat cruisers with a ton of sheet metal, trading on the "Lifestyle" and the past, with standard Harley type V-twin engines that despite whatever internal design differences they might have still share a lot of DNA with a Harley, and none with the old flathead, hand-shift Indians.
I've owned 35 motorcycles including 3 Harleys and an Indian, and if a crowd of these bikes rode past mixed in with Harleys and the corresponding Yamahonduki copies, I probably wouldn't be able to spot the difference ...
Dangerous to say that amidst the roiling crowd of fanboys, but I'm used to it ... ;-T
Lannis
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I guess both of you guys missed KevM's detailed and thoughtful summary of the key features that differentiate the new Indians from the current Harleys? Oh, right, if you're a born contrarian, no use trying to confuse you with facts....
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PROGRAMS HERE , GET YER PROGRAMS HERE ! Hey Lannis , is it OK to rant and troll ? ;D
Dusty
You make the call ... reading the responses, I wasn't sure WHO was ranting and trolling! Usually it's the person with the "dissenting opinion" ....
Lannis
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I guess both of you guys missed KevM's detailed and thoughtful summary of the key features that differentiate the new Indians from the current Harleys? Oh, right, if you're a born contrarian, no use trying to confuse you with facts....
Not denying any FACTS about crankpin angles or internal engine configurations or external details. Just saying that, in my opinion, it makes no difference in the perception, visual feel, or the potential market for the bike. And those ARE opinions, and are just as valid as anyone elses.
Lannis
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Visual feel? ???
Trying to wrap my head around that one, but... all I get is a sour taste in my ear....
;D
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That's why it was called "Project Rushmore." Harley-Davidson might have been able to revamp their line-up in less time, but management asked, "Why should we rush more?"
(http://www.svrider.com/forum/images/smilies/rimshot.gif)
so rush-more is an oxymoron.
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Not denying any FACTS about crankpin angles or internal engine configurations or external details. Just saying that, in my opinion, it makes no difference in the perception, visual feel, or the potential market for the bike.
So any transverse crankshaft v-twin is a Harley copy now? Ok, noted. :D
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So any transverse crankshaft v-twin is a Harley copy now? Ok, noted. :D
Did I say that? Did I? I think you just made that up .... :D
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IT's NOT A shared crankpin
Kevin, the photos I've seen of the Indian crank depict a single crank pin. Are you referring to the forked design of the Harley, so the two cylinders are exactly in line?
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Kevin, the photos I've seen of the Indian crank depict a single crank pin. Are you referring to the forked design of the Harley, so the two cylinders are exactly in line?
Yes, my bad....
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Finally had a chance to see them in person last weekend at a dealer west of town. Didn't take them out for a ride or anything like that, but gave them a good look over.
They are a pretty big bike, look well made, the styling looks a lot better in person, and we were really impressed. Money would be an issue with me, and if I get anything for 20-25k it's going to be a old 911, so not in the market for a while. But, if I was looking and wanted a larger bike (harley, victory, etc) then this would be in the running.
Also, the Victory line looks pretty good in person. Again, not in the market for one, but if I was they would be something I'd consider.
;-T
As far as them vs guzzi, I don't think they are really in the same class/league. The cali 1400 seems a lot smaller, and is maybe more on the sporting end of the deal, where as the Indian seems more of a cruiser and straight line power type of bike (like the HD market). I'm sure either would do just fine with regular driving, and the rest is up to style and looks.
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Reviving this to add some notes about the recent comparison test by Cycle World of the California 1400 Custom vs. Harley-Davidson Softail Deluxe vs. Indian Chief Classic.
http://www.cycleworld.com/2014/02/19/harley-davidson-softail-deluxe-vs-indian-chief-classic-vs-moto-guzzi-california-1400-custom-comparison-test/
SPECIFICATIONS
Harley-Davidson Softail Deluxe Indian Chief Classic Moto Guzzi California 1400 Custom
PRICE $19,759 $19,499 $14,990
DRY WEIGHT 709 lb. 780 lb. 681 lb.
WHEELBASE 64.5 in. 68.7 in. 66.9 in.
SEAT HEIGHT 26.1 in. 28.4 in. 29.3 in.
FUEL MILEAGE 40 mpg 36 mpg 35 mpg
0-60 MPH 4.6 sec. 4.5 sec. 3.7 sec.
1/4 MILE 13.34 sec. @ 98.49 mph 13.20 sec. @ 98.46 mph 12.54 sec. @ 105.21 mph
HORSEPOWER 71.0 hp @ 5230 rpm 75.9 hp @ 4300 rpm 84.6 hp @ 6180 rpm
TORQUE 87.3 lb.-ft. @ 3070 rpm 105.3 lb.-ft. @ 2850 rpm 78.6 lb.-ft. @ 2820 rpm
TOP SPEED 113 mph 114 mph 125 mph
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Both American bikes are way slower, one is a 100Lb heavier, neither can stop anywhere near as well, and the nearest in price will eat up an additional $4600, yet they pick the Indian as the best???
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Both American bikes are way slower, one is a 100Lb heavier, neither can stop anywhere near as well,
Hold up a second, "way slower"?
I disagree, almost a second may mean something on a drag strip, but it generally means jack dyke to how these bikes are ridden.
And I see no stats on braking, though I suspect that Harley would be horrible comparatively since the others have dual Brembos.
I find it interesting that the Indian has more lean angle than the Cali, and they noted how stiff the Indian chassis was.
As for a winner, that's subjective.
Ever watch Top Gear, they almost always pick the "worst"car statistically as they one they would own.
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Ever watch Top Gear, they almost always pick the "worst"car statistically as they one they would own.
Unless it's a Robin Reliant. :D
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thanks YCRN-
confirms what I felt when I rode them. The Cal 14 is much sportier ride!
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thanks YCRN-
confirms what I felt when I rode them. The Cal 14 is much sportier ride!
Unless you're talking about handling/lean angle, chassis stiffness, or possibly brakes...but hey, I guess drag races are "sporty too".
Sounds like measurement with a yard stick again...when a micrometer would do.
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Hold up a second, "way slower"?
I disagree, almost a second may mean something on a drag strip, but it generally means jack dyke to how these bikes are ridden.
And I see no stats on braking, though I suspect that Harley would be horrible comparatively since the others have dual Brembos.
I find it interesting that the Indian has more lean angle than the Cali, and they noted how stiff the Indian chassis was.
As for a winner, that's subjective.
Ever watch Top Gear, they almost always pick the "worst"car statistically as they one they would own.
It's also interesting to note that MCN (M Consumer News) only managed a 13.3 with the Cali Custom, meaning a dead heat with the Harley and a tenth slower than the Indian.
So again, performance differences are probably much ado about nothing.
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Performance is not just straight-line acceleration. Performance is the total dynamic package -- How does the bike function going down the road? In addition to the specifications that I transcribed, the CW article notes that the Moto Guzzi has the best combination of ride, handling and comfort, steers and brakes the quickest, is the only one with traction control (and ride modes), and weighs the least by more than 60 lbs. It is, by every objective and subjective measure, the best-performing bike of the bunch. That is without taking the $4K+ price difference into account.
That the Indian won can be attributed to one or two (or maybe three) things:
1. The Indian is newer, so it's "newness" won out over the more familiar Guzzi.
2. Polaris deserves a boost for preserving the Indian brand; besides, Guzzi had its day when the Cali 1400 won Cruiser of the Year for 2013.
3. Polaris is going to spend big advertising dollars on promoting its brands within the pages and web site of Cycle World; Moto Guzzi -- not so much.
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#3 is a big one. It's amazing how closely advertizing dollars are connected to articles and reviews with many/most magazines.
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Performance is not just straight-line acceleration. Performance is the total dynamic package -- How does the bike function going down the road? In addition to the specifications that I transcribed, the CW article notes that the Moto Guzzi has the best combination of ride, handling and comfort, steers and brakes the quickest, is the only one with traction control (and ride modes), and weighs the least by more than 60 lbs. It is, by every objective and subjective measure, the best-performing bike of the bunch. That is without taking the $4K+ price difference into account.
The Chief is the heaviest (99 pounds heavier than the Guzzi) and has the longest wheelbase of the bunch (68.7 inches by our measure) but is also, by far, the most luxurious to ride.
All three bikes do an admirable job damping engine vibration, especially at lower revs, where these bikes deliver ample torque. Guest tester Ryan Orr said the Guzzi was so smooth it reminded him of an electric bike. But once the Softail and California are wound up, vibration finds its way through the bars and floorboards, while the Chief remains surreally smooth from the bottom to the top of its generous powerband.
Also not surprising, the Guzzi offers plenty of cornering clearance, but in an extraordinary twist, it turns out that the Indian actually offers the best clearance value among these three bikes. And, actually, it’s the best of any traditionally styled, floorboard-equipped cruiser we’ve ever tested.
And when you’re heeled over on the big Chief, it’ll also hold a wonderfully dedicated line. Steering feel is solid and weighty but not ponderous. Extremely predictable. The two testers who hadn’t experienced the “behemoth” in the twisties were blown right out of the water. From Conner’s notes: “I’m totally surprised how well the Indian handles despite that exceptionally long wheelbase.” To Orr’s: “Cornering this beast was no problem, thanks to nice suspension action and all that clearance.”
But at the end of the day doesn’t it come down to power and money? All of these bikes are fast—certainly powerful enough to quicken the pulse. And interestingly, the Guzzi’s 1,380cc V-twin is pumping out almost 10 more top-end ponies than the Indian’s 1,819cc Thunder Stroke 111, which, of course, squashes everything in sight when it comes to torque. And, oh yeah, that’s including the Harley. Let’s just say that if the Thunderstroke 111 were arm wrestling Harley’s 1,690cc Twin Cam 103, the Indian would put Harley’s hand right through the table.
The Guzzi, meanwhile, charmed us enough last year to take Best Cruiser in Ten Best voting and undisputedly carries on as one of the most soulful, sporty, and value-priced cruisers of all time. But the Chief out-torques them both and, while not as agile as the Guzzi, can lean just that much farther.
It seems to me that the Indian "won" because PERFORMANCE is SUBJECTIVE if you're not on the race track.
And it seems to me that although there's no doubt the Guzzi is more "sporty" the Indian isn't that far behind, which is really the point I've tried to make for months... that they are "comparable" where they are going to be used (the street).
Look, pointing out the relative strengths of the Indian (or even the Harley) isn't damning the Guzzi....
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#3 is a big one. It's amazing how closely advertizing dollars are connected to articles and reviews with many/most magazines.
I'm shocked--shocked!--at the possibility that BMW advertising in Car & Driver magazine might have an influence on their choice of BMW as the winner of every single car comparison article in the last 40 years.
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Yeah, a couple decades ago, I was trying to market an automatic speed control system for tournament water ski towboats that I had designed and built, and representatives of a major water ski magazine came right out and told me that if I were to take out some expensive ads, they'd be happy to write an article about my product. I declined, partly because I couldn't afford the ads.
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And they failed to do a real spirited riding test. The Cali would have smoked these two in spirited riding. It is sportier and faster and a full 100#s lighter than the Indian. How can they say the Indian has more lean angle and that makes up for it being less sportier than the Cali? So it takes you longer to get to that lean angle and you have less power coming out to the curves but a bit more lean angle. The top speed and faster 1/4 and sportier ride means Guzzi walks away from both of Indian and HD in the twisties and what about lugging that 800# with the long wheel base Indian around the city? Even some Guzzitis have complained the 1400 is just a bit large for city use. So I see the Indian as big fail there. I do not see Guzzi loosing any sales to the Indian cause if someone is going to drop $4K more on a slower heavier poorer handling bike then they want it for styling and "heritage" and profiling. I see it taking a chunk out of HD sales a big chunk.
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And they failed to do a real spirited riding test. The Cali would have smoked these two in spirited riding. It is sportier and faster and a full 100#s lighter than the Indian. How can they say the Indian has more lean angle and that makes up for it being less sportier than the Cali? So it takes you longer to get to that lean angle and you have less power coming out to the curves but a bit more lean angle. The top speed and faster 1/4 and sportier ride means Guzzi walks away from both of Indian and HD in the twisties
BECAUSE 99% of buyers of ANY of those three bikes don't CARE about that, they're not gonna be racing twisties.
If they were there are about 50-100 other current model year bikes they could buy that would be better than all three buy a significant margin...
WAY MORE than the rch that the Guzzi squeaks out in this comparison.
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And they failed to do a real spirited riding test. The Cali would have smoked these two in spirited riding. It is sportier and faster and a full 100#s lighter than the Indian. How can they say the Indian has more lean angle and that makes up for it being less sportier than the Cali? So it takes you longer to get to that lean angle and you have less power coming out to the curves but a bit more lean angle. The top speed and faster 1/4 and sportier ride means Guzzi walks away from both of Indian and HD in the twisties and what about lugging that 800# with the long wheel base Indian around the city? Even some Guzzitis have complained the 1400 is just a bit large for city use. So I see the Indian as big fail there. I do not see Guzzi loosing any sales to the Indian cause if someone is going to drop $4K more on a slower heavier poorer handling bike then they want it for styling and "heritage" and profiling. I see it taking a chunk out of HD sales a big chunk.
once you ride them, it's no contest :bike
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BECAUSE 99% of buyers of ANY of those three bikes don't CARE about that, they're not gonna be racing twisties.
If they were there are about 50-100 other current model year bikes they could buy that would be better than all three buy a significant margin...
WAY MORE than the rch that the Guzzi squeaks out in this comparison.
I do wish they'd time 'em around Streets of Willow, though, to give an idea of handling.
They do run 'em through the quarter. Streets of Willow would be an easy deal.
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once you ride them, it's no contest :bike
Not really, not since I rode them...
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I do wish they'd time 'em around Streets of Willow, though, to give an idea of handling.
They do run 'em through the quarter. Streets of Willow would be an easy deal.
Yeah that would be cool . Compare lap times . Of course most potential buyers have no idea what the streets of willow are . As opposed to the famous willow loop in the Texas hill country where the average speed is what 35 mph ?
Dusty
Sent from a submarine in Oklahoma .
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Yeah that would be cool . Compare lap times . Of course most potential buyers have no idea what the streets of willow are . As opposed to the famous willow loop in the Texas hill country where the average speed is what 35 mph ?
Dusty
Sent from a submarine in Oklahoma .
I would suspect the Guzzi would come out on top...
and again, MOST BUYERS in the category would give a flyingmothercumfukt hrougharollingjelly donut.
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BECAUSE 99% of buyers of ANY of those three bikes don't CARE about that, they're not gonna be racing twisties.
If they were there are about 50-100 other current model year bikes they could buy that would be better than all three buy a significant margin...
WAY MORE than the rch that the Guzzi squeaks out in this comparison.
I did not say anything about "racing" in the twisties. I said spirited riding in the twisties. Just because you are buying a cruiser does not exclude spirited riding in the twisties. They considered agility and sportiness in the article and Guzzi won on both of them. I bet zero percent of HD buyers consider handling important or will even ride their bike in a spirited manner. The bike is incapable of it. I would expect Indian customers do not consider handling high on their list either but probably higher than HD owners. It may even win over some HDers because the Chief blows away the Harley. Guzzi buyers I would bet 75% of them consider handling very important and not only that they will ride their bike in a spirited manner. They are buying a cruiser and they understand they are giving up handling compared to a lot of other bikes. But the 1400 is a great handling cruiser and that is the deal maker for a lot of 1400 Guzzi owners.
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I did not say anything about "racing" in the twisties. I said spirited riding in the twisties. Just because you are buying a cruiser does not exclude spirited riding in the twisties. They considered agility and sportiness in the article and Guzzi won on both of them. I bet zero percent of HD buyers consider handling important or will even ride their bike in a spirited manner. The bike is incapable of it. I would expect Indian customers do not consider handling high on their list either but probably higher than HD owners. It may even win over some HDers because the Chief blows away the Harley. Guzzi buyers I would bet 75% of them consider handling very important and not only that they will ride their bike in a spirited manner. They are buying a cruiser and they understand they are giving up handling compared to a lot of other bikes. But the 1400 is a great handling cruiser and that is the deal maker for a lot of 1400 Guzzi owners.
And having ridden them (except the Softail, screw that, there are MUCH better handling Harleys), I'm telling you that IF YOU'RE NOT RACING the differences are bullshit...they are rch's.
That's essentially what these normally sportbike riding guys are saying.
Again, I've run down, or out run sportbikes on lowered Harleys or touring models...it's about the rider more than the bike on the street.
And "Guzzi" buyers make up what 0.01% of the market? That's what I'm saying, the vast majority of buyers of this type of bike will never give a crap about the slight differences in performance.
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.And "Guzzi" buyers make up what 0.01% of the market? That's what I'm saying, the vast majority of buyers of this type of bike will never give a crap about the slight differences in performance.
OK so you made your point. How many 1400 owners on this list? I wonder if they are reading this thread. How many considered handling?
I am not a great rider so a better performing bike is going to make me a better rider. You are looking at this from the elite rider's perspective and I am looking at it from the guy who does not drag his pegs through every corner. So a really good rider can take a mediocre bike and blow off the road a mediocre rider on a great sport bike.
I had a piece of crap HD and it almost killed me. I moved over to a 750 Ducati and all of a sudden I thought my last name was Cathcart.
I hear so many guys talking about the handling of the 1400 and you make it sound meaningless. I do not believe that for a second.
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OK so you made your point. How many 1400 owners on this list? I wonder if they are reading this thread. How many considered handling?
I am not a great rider so a better performing bike is going to make me a better rider. You are looking at this from the elite rider's perspective and I am looking at it from the guy who does not drag his pegs through every corner. So a really good rider can take a mediocre bike and blow off the road a mediocre rider on a great sport bike.
I had a piece of crap HD and it almost killed me. I moved over to a 750 Ducati and all of a sudden I thought my last name was Cahtcart.
I hear so many guys talking about the handling of the 1400 and you make it sound meaningless. I do not believe that for a second.
No, my point of the opposite...that most riders are not elite, nor are they likely to need a bike that is.
You had ONE bad Harley, it almost killed you? REALLY? why? Cause you bought a model that was particularly for show and over rode the go?
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No, my point of the opposite...that most riders are not elite, nor are they likely to need a bike that is.
You had ONE bad Harley, it almost killed you? REALLY? why? Cause you bought a model that was particularly for show and over rode the go?
I did not say most riders are elite so we are in agreement. This is what I said: "You are looking at this from the elite rider's perspective". This is an elite rider's speaking "I've run down, or out run sportbikes on lowered Harleys or touring models...it's about the rider more than the bike on the street". And this is an elite rider talking " IF YOU'RE NOT RACING the differences are bullshit. That's essentially what these normally sportbike riding guys are saying".
I would not ask a "normally sportbike guy" or someone who can run down a sport bike on a lowered Harley about the differences in handling between these bikes. You/they couldn't tell me anything. You/they live ride with a much better skill set than I do. So your perspective is not going to help me decide.
It is not why I bought the Harley or if I over rode it (which can also be done on that wonderful Duck) it's the "concept" that a better bike made me a better rider. With the Duck I could ride at the same speed or even a faster speed with the same skill set because I was riding a better handling bike. And you freaking criticize me with a made up story for overriding a show bike. No it was not a show bike and it was in the early 70s. I bought the Harley before the Ducati's had hit the show room floors and I didn't even know what a Guzzi was. It was only a year later that I realized I want more performance even if I was not going to drag my pegs. I still say from what I have read in the threads on this list that handling is important to the guys who have bought the 1400. :beat_horse :beat_horse I am sure you could not tell the differences I made in my Mille.... bitubos, Wirth progressive front springs, lowered narrower bars, euro jetted carbs, large caliper brakes. I am sure you would still out run me on your lowered Harley no matter what I did to my bike. But I can say that it handles much better and I am a better rider for the modifications I have done. No doubt that is bullshit to the sportbike guys but I am not interested in what they think of my riding skills unless they are trying to help me be a better rider.
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In my experience, the "better handling" bike enables you to have more confidence in your skills. You discover that you can ride it faster, smoother, etc., than the ill-handling bike. You chalk up your newfound prowess to the superior bike. I submit that if you now jump back on the ill-handling bike, you'll be able to ride it at a much higher level than you could before. Confidence is key.
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In my experience, the "better handling" bike enables you to have more confidence in your skills. You discover that you can ride it faster, smoother, etc., than the ill-handling bike. You chalk up your newfound prowess to the superior bike. I submit that if you now jump back on the ill-handling bike, you'll be able to ride it at a much higher level than you could before. Confidence is key.
No question confidence is a key and that riding a better bike will make you a better overall rider. Although I will say if I had experienced some significant exposure to a dirt bike I would be a much better roadie today. The HD I got into trouble with was no showie. I traded in a Full Dresser Pan head on a new "sleek" 72 FX Super Glide which was basically a striped down 74 c.i. with a sportster front end. It was AMF time at HD in those lean years. I put 12K miles on it in the 8 riding months available in central Illinois. It should have been labeled unsafe at any speed. I was following a 650 Triumph on some tight twitisties and we both got going to fast. I ground my clutch cover and it stated bouncing around. It had no brakes so that was not an option except to ride it out. After one particularly down hill decreasing radius lefty we both pulled over. Even Bob with his upsweep pipes and gobs of ground clearance said let's bring it down a notch or two. I remember taking my motorcycle endorsement on the Ducati when I moved to Georgia. The LEO doing the test said he had never seen anybody handle the test course with such ease. My reply was it's the bike not me.
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Hold up a second, "way slower"?
I disagree, almost a second may mean something on a drag strip, but it generally means jack dyke to how these bikes are ridden.
Maybe, but at the end of the quarter mile, the Guzzi would be 117 feet ahead of the Indian, according to the numbers posted on the previous page.
That's practically the next zip code.
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I think you're taking my comments the wrong way, let me try and explain it again...
I did not say most riders are elite so we are in agreement. This is what I said: "You are looking at this from the elite rider's perspective". This is an elite rider's speaking "I've run down, or out run sportbikes on lowered Harleys or touring models...it's about the rider more than the bike on the street". And this is an elite rider talking " IF YOU'RE NOT RACING the differences are bullshit. That's essentially what these normally sportbike riding guys are saying".
I would not ask a "normally sportbike guy" or someone who can run down a sport bike on a lowered Harley about the differences in handling between these bikes. You/they couldn't tell me anything. You/they live ride with a much better skill set than I do. So your perspective is not going to help me decide.
NO, I'm FAR from an elitist with regards to my skills. I've been on the other side of that equation too, handily outridden a member of this board while I was arguably on a more capable machine.
My point was speaking to the capability of the average rider vs. the capability of the average machine, i.e. that MOST bikes today are FAR more capable than the riders.
There's no way that more than maybe a percentage of riders out there can use 10/10ths of a modern sportbike or even the top sport touring bikes.
And even if they could, do you think people should be riding that way in the street?
The types of bikes we're talking about (cruisers and tourers) are arguably the LEAST performance oriented bikes around these days, yet the bikes in this test review (even the largest and "slowest") are putting down 12 to 13 second 1/4 mile times, THAT'S WRX STI territory. That's as fast as some of the top dog muscle cars of the 60's.
Yeah, it's not all about a straight line, but how fast do you need to corner (see previous comment about sport bikes).
And if cornering speed IS your priority, then a Cali 1400 is just as much the wrong choice as the Harley or Indian.
Hell if SPEED is your priority, then a Cali 1400 is JUST AS MUCH THE WRONG CHOICE, because a SPORTBIKE today means 9 and 10 second 1/4 miles, maybe 11's for some of the SLOW ones.
If a second difference of the Cali is murdering the Indian, then the Cali shouldn't even get out of bed if you want to talk real speed.
With regards to the rider-not-the-bike. I don't think many people are going to argue that if you want to become a more skilled rider, you do that on a less capable, not MORE capable bike. The more capable the bike the easier it is to use the bike to make up for lack of skill. It's not just confidence, it's that it is just plain easier to go faster on a bike with better motor, better suspension, better brakes.
And personally I think TOO EASY to get a false sense of security with your speed relative to the environment around you. Most of the corners around here are blind, so how much do you want to risk on each of them. I mean if you can ride a slow bike at double that silly yellow "recommended" corner speed, do you REALLY need an even more capable bike to take it up another 10 or 20 mph in cornering speed?
My point about the differences between the Cali and Indian being BS is because EVEN the Indian is more capable than MOST riders and MANY sportbikes of decades ago.
It is not why I bought the Harley or if I over rode it (which can also be done on that wonderful Duck) it's the "concept" that a better bike made me a better rider. With the Duck I could ride at the same speed or even a faster speed with the same skill set because I was riding a better handling bike. And you freaking criticize me with a made up story for overriding a show bike. No it was not a show bike and it was in the early 70s. I bought the Harley before the Ducati's had hit the show room floors and I didn't even know what a Guzzi was. It was only a year later that I realized I want more performance even if I was not going to drag my pegs. I still say from what I have read in the threads on this list that handling is important to the guys who have bought the 1400. :beat_horse :beat_horse
Anyway, I wasn't criticizing you regarding the Harley, unless you think pointing out you over-rode the go is being critical. That said, you're talking about AN ANTIQUE, something that was built when I was in diapers. Seriously is everything you think about Harleys based on experience from LONG before my wife was even born?
Trust me, they're not the same anymore. SURE some are particularly low and for show (that includes the Softail from the article). But they're not all that way. And even the worst is still DECADES ahead of the 72 you referenced.
The Cali 1400 handles great, but it's still an RCH in the real world when compared to a lot of other cruisers and tourers, and it's still miles behind what a Sportbike or Sport Tourer is capable of.
And my point is IF YOU'RE THE TYPE OF GUY TO RIDE A CRUISER OR TOURER, then MOST LIKELY (sure there are exceptions) the RCH difference between the Indian and the Cali is going to mean nothing to you. And I think the market bears that out, the 0.01% of which are guys who currently chose the Cali 1400 being the exception, not the rule.
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Putting the bike origins aside, it is still easy to understand how the writers came to their conclusion. As many of you, I have ridden them both and that of course is the only way to realistically compare them. I don't put much emphasis on stats; I don't even know how quick any of my past motorcycles covered the quarter mile. If it mattered, I suppose I wouldn't have bought my first California. If you want to brag about your ride, by all means pore over those stats until you're blurry eyed. That way they will be on the tip of your tongue when you are bench racing. If it is about the riding experience, then it is very personal and subjective. If handling was a priority to the testers, they probably would have (and should have) chosen something other than the HD Softail to test.
I was impressed with both the California and the Indian. I think I could be happy with either one. Having said that, a couple of short demo rides are hardly sufficient for me to fully understand and qualify the nuances of each of the bikes. Even so, to me the 1400 seemed a bit more like a big sports bike than a cruiser, except for the floorboard dragging of course. I never touched the Indians floorboard's on the 30 minute test ride. It was smooth, comfortable and it was apparent that it had a very stiff chassis. Between the two, it would be my choice for a touring cruiser. For local riding in the N. GA mountains, maybe I would give the 1400 the nod.
I suspect my pre-ride expectations factored into my opinion somewhat. Though I was very impressed with my demo ride on the Guzzi, I expected as much based upon previous ride reports. I was impressed but not really surprised. Prior to my ride on the Indian, I really did not have very high expectations. I expected it to be merely a footnote in my riding experiences. It was way, way more than that. I hope to ride both again this spring - who knows?
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And "Guzzi" buyers make up what 0.01% of the market?
I think it's more like .001 !!!
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I question whether H-D makes better-handling Big Twins than the Softail. In my experience, the solid-mount Softail frame is stiffer and handles directional changes better than the rubber-mount Dyna and FL models. Where it falls down in handling is poor lean angles due to a lack of clearance. The FL and Dyna bikes have a bit more cornering clearance, but it's not a huge difference. So, IMO this is a case of six of one, half a dozen of the others. The Softail feels less wiggly and holds a line better than the Dyna and FL models; the Dyna and FL models heel over just a bit further (which is still not much) but feel more vague while doing it. I actually like the Softail chassis better, but, bottom line, in stock form they all handle like crap. There is no Harley Big Twin that can come close to the handling of the California 1400 Custom. I think the complaint that this test involved a Softail instead of a Road King or some other Big Twin from H-D is a red herring.
I also think the difference in handling between the Harley and the Moto Guzzi is enough to be a selling point to a majority of riders in this category, if they would simply open their minds to the possibility that just maybe Harley-Davidson is not the only motorcycle on the planet worth owning. It is way too easy for a rider of even meager abilities to out-ride the capabilities of H-D's bikes. If H-D buyers didn't know or care about this, why is there an aftermarket for Harley suspension upgrades? Regardless of riding abilities, if given the choice, who would not want a better-handling, quicker-turning, shorter-stopping, more comfortable-riding motorcycle? The feeling of security and being in control of the machine (not to mention the fun factor) is so much greater on the California 1400 Custom than on any Harley Big Twin that I cannot imagine an honest A-B comparison resulting in any rider saying, "Nah, I don't need all that capability; give me the Harley."
Having not yet ridden the Indian bikes, I have no opinion on how they compare. If Polaris has managed to make a bike that can hang with the Moto Guzzi, despite being 2" longer and 100 lbs. heavier, then they are to be congratulated.
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I also think the difference in handling between the Harley and the Moto Guzzi is enough to be a selling point to a majority of riders in this category, if they would simply open their minds to the possibility that just maybe Harley-Davidson is not the only motorcycle on the planet worth owning. It is way too easy for a rider of even meager abilities to out-ride the capabilities of H-D's bikes. If H-D buyers didn't know or care about this, why is there an aftermarket for Harley suspension upgrades?
By that logic BMW and Guzzi suspensions are all shit too. Hell, there are plenty of guys on the Ducati board who upgrade there suspension.
The only thing that tells us is that no matter what the OEM provides, some people are going to be dissatisfied.
You obviously know I already disagree about the handling comparison. And I'm not talking about feel or preference, but actual performance, what it CAN or CANNOT do.
And in that sense, I think the current Dyna and FL both handle fine, and better than the Softail (and I think the differences in lean angle are not insignificant).
Hell, the Softail they chose is the 5th least capable of leaning bike that Harley builds (better only slightly than the Superlow, and a bunch of other Softails, and even then only by about 1 degree of lean):
(degrees lean left / right)
Softail Deluxe - 25.8 / 26.7
vs.
Road King - 33 / 31
Meanwhile EVERY SINGLE Dyna and FL offer from 5-7 degrees more lean angle, that's about 20-26% more lean angle.
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Kev, I almost deleted the line about aftermarket suspension bits, because I knew you wouldn't let me get away with it. Still, on H-D forums, is it not the consensus that their bikes are grossly under-sprung and lack suspension travel and cornering clearance? My impression is that the spring weights they select at the factory can barely hold up the weight of their bikes, sans rider.
As for the Softail vs. Road King comparison, I stand by what I wrote. Handling is not just about lean angle. I find the Softail chassis substantially stiffer and more confidence-inspiring than the wet-noodle feeling I get whenever I ride an FL bike (even an '09 or newer bike). The lean angle differences are marginal IMO because I scrape floorboards on either bike -- at moderate to slow speeds, just by making a turn at an intersection. I will admit that on paper, a 20% difference seems like a lot. Out on the street, I don't feel it. Maybe because I would not want to lean a Road King to its limit, given how wobbly it feels while doing so, whereas I would lean a Softail to its limit with more confidence.
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Lol
On the suspension, I think Harley prioritizes (and balances) low ride heights and comfort, neither of which really benefits cornering. But under sprung or more often improperly adjusted?
I still say you're talking preference and not capability with regards to the FLH/FXD vs FXST cornering comparisons.
And I won't question your preferences.
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MOST BUYERS in the category would give a flyingmothercumfukt hrougharollingjelly donut.
I agree.
I only want the lap times for my own personal curiosity.
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once you ride them, it's no contest :bike
So what are your impressions (if you already posted them I missed it) as to the no contest.
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So what are your impressions (if you already posted them I missed it) as to the no contest.
I have posted quite a bit. I don't own a Cal 14 but would like to. I've ridden the new Indians, some Victories and most Harleys. I've ridden both the Cal Custom and the Touring model with my wife.
When I said no contest, it was based on riding experience, meaning the Cal is much sportier: More power, smoother, faster, better handling, better balance, more maneuverable and better brakes.
I've written all over about my impressions. :beat_horse
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I suppose, the big distinction with HD, Ducati, and Guzzi vs Indian, Norton, etc. is that they've been in business continually and still occupy thier original factories. (though HD has grown well beyond Milwaukee).
Polaris is getting ready to knock a home run with Indian. So, despite no ties to Springfield, the brand has an identity and will be successful on its own level with the Polaris clout behind it.
So a Triumph isn't a Triumph because they didn't make a bike every year. Nortons are not Nortons? I don't remember reading on Wiki that a manufacturer had to build in every year to keep the name. You only need look at the new ones to see they are all Indian.
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So a Triumph isn't a Triumph because they didn't make a bike every year. Nortons are not Nortons? I don't remember reading on Wiki that a manufacturer had to build in every year to keep the name. You only need look at the new ones to see they are all Indian.
Geez, man. This argument goes round and round.
Bloor bought Triumph out of bankruptcy, licensed production of Bonnevilles to a 3rd party between 1983 and 1987, while building a new factory to build new bikes, which started in 1988 on a limited basis. Personally, I believe Triumph does have an unbroken lineage, though many people disagree.
Norton is not Norton. The current Norton is the brainchild of an American named Greer who ended up selling his company to some Brits. Sure, they own the name, but the current Norton is not directly linked to the original. Really kick-ass bikes, though.
Indian. Really? You want to talk about the Polaris Indian like it has lineage to Springfield Mass? Polaris have done a bang-up job with the new bike. It's going to be very successful. Does the company have a lineage to the original. No. Other than the name, there is no direct lineage. Great tribute, though. I'd ride one. ;-T
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How many 1400 owners on this list? ... How many considered handling?
At least one, and I did.
But for me it wasn't about 'twisties' handling--I live in Illinois, for god's sake; drive one mile, turn 90 degrees, and repeat--but neutral handling at very low speeds. Because I'm going to be in a parking lot trying to turn my 700 pound beast more often than I'm scraping the foot boards around a sweeper. And I refuse to 'duck walk' my motorcycle. Anyway, guess what: at walking/parking lot speeds, the California 1400 handled far better than the competition, namely the Road King, Softail Deluxe and Triumph Thunderbird. Giggle derisively if you want, but that was one of my criteria; this is the real world.
For what that's all worth...
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At least one, and I did.
But for me it wasn't about 'twisties' handling--I live in Illinois, for god's sake; drive one mile, turn 90 degrees, and repeat--but neutral handling at very low speeds. Because I'm going to be in a parking lot trying to turn my 700 pound beast more often than I'm scraping the foot boards around a sweeper. And I refuse to 'duck walk' my motorcycle. Anyway, guess what: at walking/parking lot speeds, the California 1400 handled far better than the competition, namely the Road King, Softail Deluxe and Triumph Thunderbird. Giggle derisively if you want, but that was one of my criteria; this is the real world.
For what that's all worth...
As a formed Chicagoan I can attest the drive one mile turn 90 degrees drive another 2 miles turn 90 degrees. For those you of not familiar with C-Town it is set up on a 90 degree grid. Every thing is nothing but rectangles except for what 4-6 diagonal streets running out to downtown in opposite directions from each other It is the Anti-Washington DC. You get lost in Chicago you are stupid.
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You get lost in Chicago you are stupid.
I don't know about being stupid if you get lost in Chicago, but I do know that in a semi you can't get there from here. A 13' 6" trailer in Chicago, and your destination is always on the otherside of a 10' 6"overpass. An even if the overpass says 13' 7", DON"T BELIEVE IT! Chicago is great at repaving the road and not changing the clearance signs. Now that I yank a tank insted of a reefer, I don't hate driving Chicago as much as I used to. ::)
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I don't know about being stupid if you get lost in Chicago, but I do know that in a semi you can't get there from here. A 13' 6" trailer in Chicago, and your destination is always on the otherside of a 10' 6"overpass. An even if the overpass says 13' 7", DON"T BELIEVE IT! Chicago is great at repaving the road and not changing the clearance signs. Now that I yank a tank insted of a reefer, I don't hate driving Chicago as much as I used to. ::)
Yup, been there done that!
Sure your rig'll clear... at the front of the trailer - you just can't always transition once engaging the decline on one side and the incline on the other. We used to call it "low centering" like "high centering" off road.
Is it in point of fact 13' 6" from the road to the bottom of the overpass? Sure, at least before the last 7 re-surfacings. Can you get a 53' (let alone our old 40 footers) trailer under there? Nope.
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I am always lost in Chicago , or DC , or NYC , or pretty much anywhere . Makes life more exciting , adds an air of uncertainty . Hey , how did THAT get here .
Dusty
Sent from a submarine in Oklahoma .
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I grew up a few miles outside of DC and never really got the hang of navigating that city. Every time I started to do well, they'd make another street 1-way. I remember once being able to see the building I was trying to get to, and by the time I followed 1-way streets for a while trying to get there I was about a mile away and lost.
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It's not just Chicago. This underpass on North Gregson Street in Durham NC claims quite a few victims! :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzkWTcDZFH0
http://11foot8.com/about/
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It's not just Chicago. This underpass on North Gregson Street in Durham NC claims quite a few victims! :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzkWTcDZFH0
http://11foot8.com/about/
That's pretty funny. Some of the guys pulling campers didn't even stop when the bridge peeled off the top of their camper ... just made the next left and rolled on.
On the other hand, what else do you do? I expect that going back and picking up the pieces out of the roadway would be neighborly ....
Lannis
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I wonder if the new Indian would fit under that bridge... 8)
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Chicago is laid out on a near perfect 90 degree grid with a point near downtown, State and Madison where the street numbers begin at O-O. All (but a few) streets north/south or east/west/ are either parallel/perpendicular each other. There are only a handful of diagonal streets and they run from downtown diagonally north by north west or south by south west. There are few shorter streets that do not follow that rule.
Every 800 = 1-one mile. So I lived at 3600 North Nora and 7200 West Addison. That puts me 4.5 miles North of Madison and 9 miles West of State Street. (or more importantly 8 miles West of Wrigley Field).
Odd ending street numbers are on one side of the street and even ending numbers on the other side of the street.
The numbers are on most poles as well as city street signs. Watch the number going up and you are going way from ground zero and numbers going down towards ground zero.
You just need to now which side of State and Madison you are on and which direction you are facing. State street is easy because it is so close to the Lake that there are not many addresses East of State street.
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West Addison.
Ever since 1981, I can't even read that without grinning .....
Lannis
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Ever since 1981, I can't even read that without grinning .....
Lannis
1060 West Addison!
(http://citynoise.org/upload/49576.jpg)
:BEER:
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1060 West Addison!
(http://citynoise.org/upload/49576.jpg)
:BEER:
Wait a second that is the address of Wrigley Field. You're pulling some leg here. Elwood Blues indeed.
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Moto Indian Thunder Stroke Le Mans III merged Motorcycle:
http://suchen.mobile.de/motorrad-inserat/moto-guzzi-le-mans-iii-cassano-delle-murg/190385393.html?lang=de&pageNumber=3&__lp=3&scopeId=MB&sortOption.sortBy=price.consumerGrossEuro&makeModelVariant1.m akeId=18100&makeModelVariant1.s earchInFreetext=false&makeModelVariant2.s earchInFreetext=false&makeModelVariant3.s earchInFreetext=false&vehicleCategory=Motorbike&segment=Motorbike&maxFirstRegistratio nDate=1990-12-31&negativeFeatures=EXPORT&daysAfterCreation=14
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Wait a second that is the address of Wrigley Field. You're pulling some leg here. Elwood Blues indeed.
You saw the movie, didn't you?
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My favorite movie of all time. People don't realize that it was a MUSICAL!! At no time in the movie is there not music playing. And only once do you see Jake and Elwoods eyes. BB 2000 sucked as a movie. I think it was just a great excuse for great musicans to get together and party, film it, and call it a movie. ;) :D
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You saw the movie, didn't you?
Of course. I was just playing stupid.
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Chicago is laid out on a near perfect 90 degree grid with a point near downtown, State and Madison where the street numbers begin at O-O. All (but a few) streets north/south or east/west/ are either parallel/perpendicular each other. There are only a handful of diagonal streets and they run from downtown diagonally north by north west or south by south west. There are few shorter streets that do not follow that rule.
Every 800 = 1-one mile. So I lived at 3600 North Nora and 7200 West Addison. That puts me 4.5 miles North of Madison and 9 miles West of State Street. (or more importantly 8 miles West of Wrigley Field).
Odd ending street numbers are on one side of the street and even ending numbers on the other side of the street.
The numbers are on most poles as well as city street signs. Watch the number going up and you are going way from ground zero and numbers going down towards ground zero.
You just need to now which side of State and Madison you are on and which direction you are facing. State street is easy because it is so close to the Lake that there are not many addresses East of State street.
North side has named streets and the south side has numbered streets for those streets going east-west. There's a few exceptions, though. The Bridgeport neighborhood gets a little goofy because of the river.
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Of course. I was just playing stupid.
;-T
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I took the opportunity to ride the new Indian VTwin along with PYoung last week at Bike Week. I rode the top-of-the-line Chieftain and PYoung rode a Chief Classic(?).
The ride was, of course, limited and we never got out in the country where we could let the machines stretch their legs but it was a nice sampling. I was impressed with how far Indian has leaped with these bikes in such a short time.
Fit and finish and overall quality is top-notch. Marketing and factory support seem to also be on the mark. You can see in my pics that, between test rides, Indian had people out there wiping-down and polishing the bikes before the next group of riders saddled-up.
Before I had returned home, I had received three emails from the Indian dealer closest to me thanking me for the ride and offering to follow-up with more test rides and information. On top of that, I received two phone calls, one from my closest dealer and one from the Indian factory, thanking me for the test ride.
The Indian I rode did fine. In my mind I was comparing it to my experience with Harley-Davidson. The Indian power and suspension seemed similar to comparable stock Harley models. Transmission shifting was a little notchy but not offensive.
The overwhelming thing I noticed about the Indian was the inordinate amount of engine heat that roiled up from the engine onto me. I really think this will become an issue and need addressing, especially for riders in hotter climes.
Overall, I think Indian is making a good showing but they are not nearly as finely-polished and developed as the Harley models.
Prepping the test fleet-
(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc462/leafman60/Daytona%202014%20Bike%20Week/021-1.jpg) (http://s1213.photobucket.com/user/leafman60/media/Daytona%202014%20Bike%20Week/021-1.jpg.html)
Decked-out Chief Vintage with all the fringe-
(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc462/leafman60/Daytona%202014%20Bike%20Week/019-1.jpg) (http://s1213.photobucket.com/user/leafman60/media/Daytona%202014%20Bike%20Week/019-1.jpg.html)
Engine cutaway, non roller lifters-
(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc462/leafman60/Daytona%202014%20Bike%20Week/018-2.jpg) (http://s1213.photobucket.com/user/leafman60/media/Daytona%202014%20Bike%20Week/018-2.jpg.html)
Beehive valve springs-
(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc462/leafman60/Daytona%202014%20Bike%20Week/019-2.jpg) (http://s1213.photobucket.com/user/leafman60/media/Daytona%202014%20Bike%20Week/019-2.jpg.html)
Single-shock rear -
(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc462/leafman60/Daytona%202014%20Bike%20Week/050-1.jpg) (http://s1213.photobucket.com/user/leafman60/media/Daytona%202014%20Bike%20Week/050-1.jpg.html)
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The overwhelming thing I noticed about the Indian was the inordinate amount of engine heat that roiled up from the engine onto me.
That's what bothers me about the late model big twin Harley-Davidson's too.
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Thanks for report and pics. Nice to see they are really making a run at it especially with the calls and follow up. Did they say anything about when we can expect a standard with that engine in it? :BEER:
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Thanks for report and pics. Nice to see they are really making a run at it especially with the calls and follow up. Did they say anything about when we can expect a standard with that engine in it? :BEER:
Nothing was said about that. I don't expect it anytime soon. They have targeted the market for H-D's most popular models and seem to be focused on making a go at it.
They don't have to sell a huge number of bikes to have a successful initiation into the business and I think they may have a chance for those who like the styling but simply want something different from the dominant Harley.
Interesting to me is that Victory seems to be the red-headed stepchild all of a sudden. These Indian banners proclaiming "Finally a choice in American motorcycles" totally overlook their sibling brand that has been around for a long time now.
Next to the Indian tent was the Victory tent and they had a trick rider out front doing figure 8s on that big Buck Rogers model showing how nimble it really was. There were folks over there but no where near the numbers hovered around the big pretty Indian bikes.
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That's what bothers me about the late model big twin Harley-Davidson's too.
What late-model, liter-plus, air-cooled twin doesn't put out a lot of heat?
My Breva 1100 was unbearable in hot summer temps.
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I'm talking a significant amount of heat from the Indian, especially compared to the air-cooled Harley models.
The water-cooled Harleys are even better at heat management.
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I'm talking a significant amount of heat from the Indian, especially compared to the air-cooled Harley models.
The water-cooled Harleys are even better at heat management.
I didn't notice that myself, but I didn't ride one with a fairing.
I did ride some Victory models with windshields and fairings last summer, but again, didn't notice a problem.
My Breva 1100 was seriously unpleasant in ambient temps maybe 90°F and above, and just "uncomfortable" in 80°F and above.
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Did anyone else test ride a new Indian? Impressions?
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I rode one and put up a ride report here last night. I enjoyed riding the Indian, no heat issues but wont be trading my Jackal for one. I do hope they make it, however.
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I spotted my first "new" Indian on the commute into work today. It was the Red Vintage model, it looked like a parade float going down the road, but I'm sure the owner was enjoying the ride. We (NE WI) have a new Indian dealer in the area and they are doing Demo rides May 15-17. I may try to get up and take one for a spin, cuz everyone loves a parade.
http://www.tytlerscycle.com/eventslist.htm?groupId=40584&itemId=196973 (http://www.tytlerscycle.com/eventslist.htm?groupId=40584&itemId=196973)
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"it looked like a parade float going down the road"
You are a bad person ;)
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"it looked like a parade float going down the road"
You are a bad person ;)
But honest :D
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The one I sat on last month was unnecessarily heavy. Nicely finished bike, but I could hardly get it off the side stand. And footboards don't cut it for me. I'm sure it's quite capable, but that's not the best setup for the type of riding I enjoy.
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I'd about be afraid to take a new Indian on a demo ride.
It could be mighty hard to explain how I leaned past vertical and got off balance, and had to leave their new $22K, 850 pound motorcycle laying in a ditch... :o
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I'd about be afraid to take a new Indian on a demo ride.
It could be mighty hard to explain how I leaned past vertical and got off balance, and had to leave their new $22K, 850 pound motorcycle laying in a ditch... :o
I'll let you know my results if I do get a chance to try it out. No interest here, just a curiosity. I guess the float reference comes from those full skirt fenders and all that fringe flappin' in the wind, just needs a girl on back doing the Miss America wave.
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merged into the threadfest
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I spotted my first "new" Indian on the commute into work today. It was the Red Vintage model, it looked like a parade float going down the road, but I'm sure the owner was enjoying the ride. We (NE WI) have a new Indian dealer in the area and they are doing Demo rides May 15-17. I may try to get up and take one for a spin, cuz everyone loves a parade.
New Indians are very impressive in person, they seem to have a great build quality, and are NOTHING like the clones of old. The engine is an impressive looking lump up close. Personal opinions of everything else subjective.
They are going after the HD softail/street glide sales. Expect the same level of fit/finish/performance you would get from those bikes and you won't be disappointed.
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"it looked like a parade float going down the road"
You are a bad person ;)
I remember those Guzzi boys at the New Cumberland/WVa rally who came in with totally leather fringed/fish tail pipes and all the rest of chrome and glitz that you could manage to find a space for on the bike. If I remember these guys where either from Monaco or Westmorland Guzzi. They came in as one big loud flashy "parade float" and left the same way: loud and at full throttle. I had never so much had seen one Guzzi dressed like before much less a group of them. Anybody here part of the group or have pics?
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Local dealer had the demo trailer here a couple of weeks ago. I went and sat on one thinking I would like to take it out on their demo ride but the way forward position of the floorboards were a turn off for my short 30 inch inseam. No way would I like to ride that thing with all my weight sitting on my tail bone!!! Plus they have no trunk option for touring. Good luck to them but not for me.
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The kid and I ran into the demo truck in Madison Wi. a few weeks ago. They tried to get us to take a demo ride. Sorry, not interested. They did have a gorgeous maroon sidecar rig (40K) that I'd look good on..
In person they didn't look nearly as ponderous as I expected. Fit and finish were top notch. Cruisers. Pfffft.
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I've seen the Indians and they are impressive ! Just not my cup o' tea and too heavy for me. I read the fringes zip on/off so that issue can be dealt with real quick. The motors are beautiful, IMHO. ;-T I read they are selling well.
Saw 2 1400 Guzzis for the 1st time @Laughlin River Run too and they looked small compared to the Indians, Harleys. Lot of Victory, Indian demo bikes. Too bad no Guzzi demo bikes. >:( The Guzzi display was small potatoes (dealer) compared to the big boys.
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The kid and I ran into the demo truck in Madison Wi. a few weeks ago. They tried to get us to take a demo ride. Sorry, not interested. They did have a gorgeous maroon sidecar rig (40K) that I'd look good on..
In person they didn't look nearly as ponderous as I expected. Fit and finish were top notch. Cruisers. Pfffft.
I saw a factory white Victory trike @ LRR for $40K :o It was huge to match it's price.
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Today I went to the Heritage Motorcycles NW Arkansas open house and Indian demo day in Rogers, Arkansas.
I really enjoyed riding the Chief Vintage, this time with no windshield! Really nice engine on these bikes. Smooth, but still some of the V-twin feel communicating to the rider. Nice long floorboards that offer a lot of options for foot placement.
Overall, the Chief is one helluva first effort from Polaris. Nice solid, powerful, comfortable motorcycle. I'd definitely pick a Chief over a Road King/Road Glide...
Chief is a big, nice Lincoln Town Car of a motorcycle. I want to own one. But, just not ready to plunk down $20k - $25k for a motorcycle.
I was a little like a duck out of water. I rode my Guzzi Sport 1100 to the event (only non cruiser in the full parking lot), and was the only one (other than ride leaders) with hi-viz jacket, gloves, and my own helmet! (there was a table of loaner halfies for the demo riders who showed up without helmets)
(http://rocker59.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Miscellaneous-bike-photos/i-wkbDj9N/0/O/indian%20demo%204-25-15.jpg)
That's me, third in line, looking all the world like one of the ride leaders. LOL!
(http://rocker59.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Miscellaneous-bike-photos/i-bfGx8M2/0/O/Indian%20demo%202%204-25-15.jpg)
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...it looked like a parade float going down the road...
Funny, I rode my Mille to a neighbor's house and talked to the wife for a few minutes. When she saw the bike, she said "Oh, you rode a little street bike." She's from a background of small dirt bikes, so I was puzzled, but didn't argue. :D
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I went to the Laughlin River Run gathering yesterday @ Laughlin, Nevada and saw 2 of the big Indians on display, 1 dressed, the other not. Actually they didn't look that big to me surrounded by a multitude of Harleys & Victory's. Saw a few on the road around Oatman too. In fact there was a Guzzi guy w/a black 1400 Guzzi peddling something on a card table @ the east end of town. Had no customers when I went by. Also a couple Ex-Hendersons @ Laughlin parking lot, 1 chromed up, the other w/less chrome. ??? They had both been ridden there. I was on my black 250 MP3 and still many bikers have never seen a MP3 before. ;D Oatman was so crowded with bikers & roaming burros, I'm glad I was on my MP3 to make it thru! :BEER: Riding to Oatman is a trip in itself. Also saw a # of those Polaris car like 3 wheelers both on the roads & under the hood on display. Their all aluminum DOHC motor sure is beautiful to look at! ;- ;-T
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I grew up a few miles outside of DC and never really got the hang of navigating that city. Every time I started to do well, they'd make another street 1-way. I remember once being able to see the building I was trying to get to, and by the time I followed 1-way streets for a while trying to get there I was about a mile away and lost.
That sounds like San Francisco to me. Or try Portland, Or. If you miss an off ramp you're SOL! They don't even let you know ahead of time to get ready for it. :wife: