The New Indian Chief Thunder Stroke 111 merged threadfest

[Kev m]

I'm saying that if I were to GET a Victory, it would not be a big overstuffed model. I realize they make different types.

Well, one might argue even the Judge is still a pretty big stuffed model, just no stock bags or windshield.

But yeah, the tube frame models are a little smaller

- Judge 691 lbs wet, only 4.7 in ground clearance, 64.8 in wheelbase, 92 in overall length

though ironically the case aluminum frame models may handle better in some the real world (I didn't scrape anything on them during the test rides when I scraped with the Judge due to lower height) but they are bigger.

[oldbike54]

WOW ! 14 pages discussing the new Polarindian . ;D Do you think there is a Polaris or Indian forum somewhere with even 2 pages discussing the 1400 Cali  :D
One thing for sure , they are garnering plenty of free press . Carry on .
Dusty

[Enrico Pallazzo]

I think people have never really gotten over the death of Indian. It was such a shame.

The new bikes aren't Indians, but at least they revive the style to some extent, and to enjoy one, you don't have to find a rusty old fender, add 350 repro parts to it, and pretend it's a restored bike. I believe this explains the interest.

PH , you are an honest HD rider , nothing wrong with the big ones , but they are "parade floats". Yeah , shifting my Jackal can also be an adventure , keeps me alert  :D
Dusty

I don't take it personally when someone comments on a brand. I don't make them! Might as well be honest about what you ride. They all have good points and bad.

[Kev m]

The new bikes aren't Indians

As argued earlier in this thread, that's a ridiculous opinion.

It is akin to any time someone uses the term "real" in the context of defining the relative merit of someone or something without literally meaning illegal "counterfeit".

It's like someone calling the new Triumphs, or even the new Moto Guzzis not real or actual examples of that brand just because of different owners in the lineage. Or not an actual "Jeep" cause of Fiat's involvement or ....

Brand is really what it comes down to.

And Polaris has not only purchased the rights to the brand, they have taken great pains in creating what the public perceives the company might still be producing today if it had not gone out of business (multiple times).

They've done a great job of replicating ONE of the iconic looks of the bikes from that original company.

As such, they're as real or actual as anything on the market today.

Though some may wish for more (variety, engine types etc.) and that is certainly fair.

But that doesn't devalue the current efforts in any way.

[Kev m]

all of this is merely opinion , ridiculous or not ,

Of course...

[Enrico Pallazzo]

As argued earlier in this thread, that's a ridiculous opinion.

There's nothing ridiculous about it. It's a hundred percent correct. You couldn't be more wrong. Indian died in 1953. The factories are gone. The tooling is gone. The engineers are gone. They don't make or stock parts for real Indians. They don't pay pensions to their old workers, if any are still alive. You can't sue them; courts recognize that the new company is completely different, even if you don't. It even has a new name. It's not "Indian Moto Cycle."

They don't even have the features that made Indians different from Harley-Davidsons. They're just upscale Harley clones with Indian labels. If anything, they're a reminder that Harley crushed Indian in every way. The only thing that survives is a pair of fender skirts on a bike based on a Harley. Indian hasn't been doing R&D since 1953. It's actually relying on R&D Harley-Davidson did during that time.

I could open a garage tomorrow and start building cars from scratch and call them Hudsons or Studebakers, but it would be a fantasy.

If the label is all that matters, you could buy a Heritage Springer and paint "INDIAN" on the tank. It's as much of an Indian as these new bikes, and it's cheaper and probably more reliable.

It reminds me of Abercrombie & Fitch. It used to be a great store, with products you couldn't find anywhere else. If you wanted to go on a safari with your own bearers, you could walk into Abercrombie's, and they would set you up. Then it turned into something like American Eagle Outfitters. Now it's a bizarre brand aimed at teens, and there is no relationship whatsoever to the real A&C. Different owners. Different vendors. It's a fake. The same thing is going on with Bell & Howell. You can buy cheap, crappy products labeled "Bell & Howell" now, but they have nothing to do with the quality products the real Bell & Howell made. You can actually pay the people who own the name, and they'll let you put it on your junk.

Harley-Davidson has an unbroken history going back over a hundred years. The company has been bought and sold, but it never disappeared completely, the way Indian did. They sell parts for old bikes. They probably have collective bargaining agreements and other contracts that go back a long time, and which they have to honor. They have to worry about lawsuits involving things that happened ten or twenty years ago, because they can't claim they're not the old Harley-Davidson.

I like the term "Pretindian." That's what these bikes are. They're not Indians. They're a tribute to Indians.

I should put a piece of tape on my Jackal and write "INDIAN" on it. Then I could say I have a 2000 Indian. Better yet, I'll just change my name to "Indian Chief."

[youcanrunnaked]

They don't even have the features that made Indians different from Harley-Davidsons. They're just upscale Harley clones with Indian labels....The only thing that survives is a pair of fender skirts on a bike based on a Harley. Indian hasn't been doing R&D since 1953. It's actually relying on R&D Harley-Davidson did during that time.

You are entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts.  The quoted portion is, factually, incorrect.  

Polaris has sunk a lot of R&D effort into projecting Indian forward.  It's as good an interpretation of what Indian would have produced now if the company had a history of continuous production as anything that could be done today, given the state of the art and market forces.

Aside from that, the new bikes are in no way Harley clones.  Maybe you are thinking of the Gilroy Indians?

[oldbike54]

PH , we have been having this discussion for several months , and Kev M is only expressing his opinion . I can argue both sides , and even though I largely agree it is a marketing ploy , Polaris did spend lots of money and resources to create a MC . The new Polarindian is not a Harley clone , even though the aesthetics are similar , the bikes are very different .
Dusty
Edit  :pop

[Kev m]

There's nothing ridiculous about it. It's a hundred percent correct. You couldn't be more wrong.

Actually I couldn't be more right. The company legally has the right to the brand and product name, therefore game, set, match.

You can't sue them; courts recognize that the new company is completely different, even if you don't. It even has a new name. It's not "Indian Moto Cycle."
 

Can you really sue Harley today for something they did in 1953? Good luck with that.

No really, I understand and accept your point that it is NOT the original company. NO ONE believes it is. That's not the point. That doesn't make it a legitimate restart in the spirit and style of the original.

They don't even have the features that made Indians different from Harley-Davidsons. They're just upscale Harley clones with Indian labels. If anything, they're a reminder that Harley crushed Indian in every way. The only thing that survives is a pair of fender skirts on a bike based on a Harley. Indian hasn't been doing R&D since 1953. It's actually relying on R&D Harley-Davidson did during that time.

They don't have the features? Two wheels, two-cylinder  :D  no seroisly, a V-twin (styled like a sidevalve motor), with full fenders - no they certainly have Indian specific features.

The bike is NOT based on a Harley anymore than the Cali, or the T-Bird, or VTX is "based" on a Harley.

IT's NOT A shared crankpin
IT's NOT a primary chain motor
IT's NOT a 45 degree V

How many Harleys have the air intake molded into the cast aluminum frame?

Oh yeah, Harleys don't use cast aluminum frames.

I could open a garage tomorrow and start building cars from scratch and call them Hudsons or Studebakers, but it would be a fantasy.

Well, you COULD, but you wouldn't be legally able to do that, so it would be completely different.

If the label is all that matters, you could buy a Heritage Springer and paint "INDIAN" on the tank. It's as much of an Indian as these new bikes, and it's cheaper and probably more reliable.

You don't really keep up on motorcycle technical issues, service, or specifications do you eh?

You think a springer front end Harley Softail with a single pot disc brake is in someway comparable to a new Indian with dual 4-pot Brembos and ABS?

Nevermind Victory's reputation for reliability and ease of maintenance which looks like a Honda compared to certain late-model Harleys (like any BT TC88 motor except the 06 Dyna).

Now the Gilroy Indian Clones with S&S motors, well, that was another thing, you might have had a point then, but nothing you said applies to the new models.

Harley-Davidson has an unbroken history going back over a hundred years. The company has been bought and sold, but it never disappeared completely, the way Indian did. They sell parts for old bikes. They probably have collective bargaining agreements and other contracts that go back a long time, and which they have to honor. They have to worry about lawsuits involving things that happened ten or twenty years ago, because they can't claim they're not the old Harley-Davidson.

Actually (and sadly) Harley modernized their parts obsoletion program over a decade ago, they don't carry or sell much for old bikes. VERY little for any Shovel or Ironhead, not a lot more for a number of EVOs. But even so, sure they have an unbroken history. So that means what exactly? They are "real" and anything that doesn't have over 100 years unbroken history is fake? Triumph is fake too? Guzzi is real because they have the same factory? Really?  :D

I like the term "Pretindian." That's what these bikes are. They're not Indians. They're a tribute to Indians.

I should put a piece of tape on my Jackal and write "INDIAN" on it. Then I could say I have a 2000 Indian. Better yet, I'll just change my name to "Indian Chief."

 ::) ::) ::)

[Enrico Pallazzo]

Actually I couldn't be more right. The company legally has the right to the brand and product name, therefore game, set, match.

Wow, can I win an argument by saying "game, set, and match?" Then GAME, SET, and MATCH. INFINITY AND NO TAGS BACK! You didn't see that coming, did you?! Don't mess with a guy who watches Pee Wee Herman.

The product name doesn't make it a real Indian. And if it did, the real name is "Indian Moto Cycle," so they don't have the real name. GAME!

I can't even find "Indian Moto Cycle" on the PTO site. I wonder if I can buy it and then resell it to them.

Can you really sue Harley today for something they did in 1953? Good luck with that.

Well, I'm a lawyer. So here is the answer: it depends. Anyone who says otherwise, without research, is not much of an attorney. It's very unlikely, but it's impossible to say without careful research, and there are many circumstances under which a statute of limitations will be tolled by a court. Suing the original Indian company, however, is definitely not possible. It doesn't exist. They have no registered service agent. You can definitely sue them for things that happened before the new Pretindian company was formed, and there was probably never a lapse in liability. GAME!

No really, I understand and accept your point that it is NOT the original company. NO ONE believes it is. That's not the point. That doesn't make it a legitimate restart in the spirit and style of the original.

That's true, and I hope they sell ten billion bikes. I would love to have a Vintage Chief. But it's not a real Indian.

The bike is NOT based on a Harley anymore than the Cali, or the T-Bird, or VTX is "based" on a Harley.

Transverse 90° motor...not even close. From a hundred yards, a new "Indian" looks very much like a Harley, however. GAME! SET! MATCH! DOUBLE MATCH!

Nevermind Victory's reputation for reliability and ease of maintenance which looks like a Honda compared to certain late-model Harleys (like any BT TC88 motor except the 06 Dyna).

I agree with the never mind part. I have never read anything bad about Polaris reliability, but since it's irrelevant: GAME! SET! MATCH! SERIES! SEASON!

There is much more to a brand than a name. The power of the brand is based largely on history and continuity of management, employees, designers, etc. Harley and other brands have most of those things or at least a few. Indian? Not so much.

Sure, they have the legal right to call it an Indian. They could also call it an SR71, since that's not a trademark. Doesn't mean it came from the Skunkworks.

I'm just going to type GAME GAME GAME from now on. Much easier.

[oldbike54]

Oh hell , another lawyer  ;D I am just kidding . Can I sue BMW for the fact my /5 has started leaking oil ?
Dusty

[Enrico Pallazzo]

Everybody hates lawyers. I totally understand that. But if you think we're dishonest and sadistic, you should see our clients.

[Sasquatch Jim]

  It would be my guess from reading this last page that someone here doesn't have enough money to buy one of the new Indians,
  So in traditional gay pirate attitude they have decided the best thing is to bad mouth them to people who like them.
  To that person or others who do this I say, Take your complaints to the illgloomy site where they will be appreciated.

[oldbike54]

Everybody hates lawyers. I totally understand that. But if you think we're dishonest and sadistic, you should see our clients.

I don't hate lawyers , had one for dinner last night  ;D Seriously , one of my best friends is an attorney , no preconceived notions from me regarding councilors at law . Funny thing , never really needed representation , my divorce attorney represented both of us . Hmm , maybe that is why she got everything . Do over , do over .
Dusty

[Enrico Pallazzo]

I don't hate lawyers , had one for dinner last night  ;D Seriously , one of my best friends is an attorney , no preconceived notions from me regarding councilors at law . Funny thing , never really needed representation , my divorce attorney represented both of us . Hmm , maybe that is why she got everything . Do over , do over .
Dusty

My mom got the same deal, and it worked out pretty much the same for her, only not on the good end. I'm not crazy about lawyers, myself. But it's good to have the degree. Beats digging a ditch.

It would be my guess from reading this last page that someone here doesn't have enough money to buy one of the new Indians,
  So in traditional gay pirate attitude they have decided the best thing is to bad mouth them to people who like them.
  To that person or others who do this I say, Take your complaints to the illgloomy site where they will be appreciated.

GAY PIRATES! WOW! THAT MUST BE ONE COOL WEBSITE!

[rboe]

There are oil threads and now there are Indian threads.  ::)

About the only way to set this to rest is to wait twenty years and see how Polaris is doing with the brand (like Triumph has down with their brand). Not only will we have a track record; I suspect many that have a dog in this race will no longer care.  ::)

[Kev m]

Ohhhhh puuhhhlease....

The value of a brand is:

1. The name
2. The product
3. The company behind the name, but even then only if someone gives a crap (and most consumers don't).

And do new Indians look like Harleys? Only to people who don't know or care about Motorcycles. Remember that most of the US thinks there are Harleys and sportbikes.

Plenty of people call Guzzis "Harleys".

So again, what does the rebirth of Indian represent? Just what the ads say "Choice is coming to American motorcycles".

Seriously someone would have to be blind or ignoring the significant tech differences to miss how these are not clone bikes.

And most importantly they are actual physical motorcycles that one can buy and ride that are designed with the visual heritage of some historical Indian models, from a company called Indian, sooo they are as "real" as any Harley, Guzzi, Ducati, Triumph, or Honda despite disjointed heritage.

To call it otherwise is to assume a position somewhere between elitist and pedantic.

[Kev m]

There are oil threads and now there are Indian threads.  ::)

About the only way to set this to rest is to wait twenty years and see how Polaris is doing with the brand (like Triumph has down with their brand). Not only will we have a track record; I suspect many that have a dog in this race will no longer care.  ::)

Is that a "real" Triumph you reference? :D

[Triple Jim]

Remember that most of the US thinks there are Harleys and sportbikes.

I'll take that one step farther, most of the US thinks there are Harleys and the the big four Japanese brands.  If it's not one of those five, they've never heard of it.  The local guy who does vehicle safely inspections is the nicest guy in the world.  He's in his 80s and has been inspecting cars and the occasional motorcycle for decades, but of course he'd never heard of Moto Guzzi.

[Enrico Pallazzo]

Man, I was hoping not to have to do this, but you're making me pull out the big gun.

[Triple Jim]

A post that actually made me laugh out loud.

[Enrico Pallazzo]

Kev is just mad at me about the chin beard thing. I'm pretty sure I said I was sorry.

[Kev m]

Kev is just mad at me about the chin beard thing. I'm pretty sure I said I was sorry.

:D ;) :D

And FWIW, I'm happy with the friendly debate.

[Enrico Pallazzo]

Well that ruined the whole thing. :BEER:

[LowRyter]

PH , we have been having this discussion for several months , and Kev M is only expressing his opinion . I can argue both sides , and even though I largely agree it is a marketing ploy , Polaris did spend lots of money and resources to create a MC . The new Polarindian is not a Harley clone , even though the aesthetics are similar , the bikes are very different .
Dusty
Edit  :pop

I'll make one point about Harley vs the (new) Indian (PolarIndain LMAO).  

It took Harley 4 years (record time for Harley) to update their existing models to the "Rushmore" design.  This is their fast turn around, market-oriented evolutionary (evo?) approach that produced water cooled the Harleys.  

Polaris designed & produced the new Indian from the ground up in 3 years.

this point provided with no additional comment.    :pop

[oldbike54]

LR , when I first coined Polarindian several months ago , someone suggested that would make it an Eskimo . Thought it really funny .
Dusty

[LowRyter]

 ;D

[Penderic]

If Moto Guzzi had bought up the Indian brand first....


 :D

[rocker59]

the new bikes are in no way Harley clones.  Maybe you are thinking of the Gilroy Indians?

 :+1

He's just ranting and trolling.

[Enrico Pallazzo]

Always easier to toss out a flippant criticism of someone's remarks than to respond thoughtfully.