Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Vasco DG on April 29, 2014, 07:47:32 PM
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Well my kit arrived. This is the 'C' kit for early A5 motors. It requires the removal of the heads to shim the valve springs which is a bore. Its also a sort of weird hybrid as it contains rocker carriers/camboxes that are machined so you can use the early rocker covers which is a bore. I would of though it would of been a lot simpler to just replace the rocker carriers and covers to keep parts selection easy.
New cambox.
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5484/14070401304_de7702d3e9.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/44512000@N00/14070401304/)
The 'Pads' that go into the rockers to cope with their radial movement.
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7041/14046824546_8ff801ed28.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/44512000@N00/14046824546/)
They fit on the roller tappets like so.
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5168/13883328039_f7ccab27b2.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/44512000@N00/13883328039/)
Scrappy pic of the rollers, sorry, I'm not going to take the cambox apart, you need a special tool to reassemble it, I don't have one yet.
(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2904/14069916645_a2eb7258e4.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/44512000@N00/14069916645/)
Pete
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Pete, thanks for the photos. By the way is the conversion an power of reliabilty upgrade? While I have not a problem, so far, with my 2009 stelvio. I am always interested in MG's inprovements.
Haven't talked for sometime hope everyone is fine.
Best regards
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Reliability. In some markets and conditions the flT tappets are prone to failure, especially if the bike isn't serviced properly. Hopefully the roller tappet conversion will prevent this..
Pete
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some more pics, the black is not standard but DLC coating, that a friend did.
(http://s17.postimg.org/4jaqin1uz/DSC06758.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/4jaqin1uz/)
(http://s17.postimg.org/8gy081oob/DSC06757.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/8gy081oob/)
(http://s17.postimg.org/v6x5117vz/DSC06756.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/v6x5117vv/full/)
(http://s17.postimg.org/h1wdwc563/DSC06754.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/h1wdwc563/)
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Nice pics but why the DLC? Seems a bit redundant on a hydrodynamic bearing.....
I can see the logic on the rocker supports.
Pete
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I won't show you the pictures of his old parts. Not once but twice. So he wanted to take any precoution possible. But problem was mainly the rocker supports. I had that too, had to replace one rocker as result. The rocker moves a few degrees so oil has not much chance to get in between, and pressure is allways on the cap.
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Yeah, and because the rocker doesn't spin the oil can't wedge so it just depends on 'Slipperiness' which is always going to be a bit 'How's yer father'.
Pete
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Nice photos and an interesting topic guys,
Forgive me if I've missed a previous discussion on this but can I ask a couple of questions--
When did they start fitting these Roller Tappets to new bikes ?
I have a 2009 model, is there a chance my steed was done at the factory ?
I need to check my Vv clearances soon so I should be able to see the cam and followers then right ?
If not, where do I go to order this kit when needed, or is prevention better than the cure of a failure
Cheers Ron
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Nice photos and an interesting topic guys,
Forgive me if I've missed a previous discussion on this but can I ask a couple of questions--
When did they start fitting these Roller Tappets to new bikes ?
I have a 2009 model, is there a chance my steed was done at the factory ?
I need to check my Vv clearances soon so I should be able to see the cam and followers then right ?
If not, where do I go to order this kit when needed, or is prevention better than the cure of a failure
Cheers Ron
yes you missed it, they are from production 5-2012. If you need a kit, talk to the dealer. If you have had all service made by the dealer like it should, they Guzzi will pay the parts. Even when warranty is over.
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Just checked the data plate, it says 1-2009 before the vin no. Am I in luck ? Obviously not
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There is a lot of horseshit talked about the flat tappet engines. Failures are generally dependent on two factors which I've covered many times. Poor servicing and use.
If you live in a cool, damp environment and mainly do short trips you will be more at risk of failure than if you do long trips and rarely ride in the rain. My explanation of the reasons for this has been posted many times before and should be easily searchable here and on other forums.
There is also the problem that a lot of shops, especially older 'Established' shops think that since it essentially *Looks* like an older Guzzi you can treat it the same as your 1977 T3. You can't. Its oil is a MAJOR cooling element for the pistons and top end. Ironically the motor will over-cool when it rains but the oil that goes past the exhaust valve seats will get VERY hot. Run any old shitbox mineral oil and it WILL cook. Even the very best synthetic oils will cook if you leave your bike idling for half an hour but a mineral will degrade really quickly as it gets momentarily heated to very high temperatures in the cooling galleries and when it contacts the bottom of the piston crowns from the under piston sprays. The full ester synth specified for the engine has it done so for a reason. Ignore ot at your peril but don't expect any sympathy if you use 'Free Grandfather Clock With Every Five Litres' mineral stuff because its 'Cheap'!
My early A5 shitbox is up to 70,000 Km. Unless I need to, which I doubt I will, I'll wait until I've done about 80,000 before I install my roller kit. Why? Because that equates to 50,000 miles which will be a good benchmark for people who live in primitive countries that haven't embraced decimalisation! ;D even my *Early* chilled cast iron tappets never failed in 23,000Km, (The factory 'Forgot' to send me my technical update parts, well done them!). My bike makes a horrid noise, it is absurdly clattery but it NEVER goes wrong and goes like a cut cat!
Use the right oil. Ride it far enough and hard enough to get it HOT at least once a week and don't leave it siting for weeks on end after a short ride. It'll probably last forever.
Of course if whoever services it doesn't have a clue all bets are off.
Pete
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Thanks for that Pete. I'm new here as you can tell, so sorry for all the questions that have been asked before.
My Griso,s done 20k now, rarely used for less than 1/2 hour runs. I've always Cut the filters open when I change the oil to inspect for particals, a bit anal ? Maybe , but I have a proper cutter that makes the task easy. Never found anything yet. I use the correct spec oils throughout and have had no mechanical issues. As Paul said I'll contact my local dealer for more info but I'm no longer concerned, the way my work commitments are it may take me another 5 years get the clock up to 40k.
Again thanks for everyone's help here and on other topics, the questions will get less annoying as I learn more,
Ron
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Pete is the conversion possible on the 1200 Sport 8v?
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Pete is the conversion possible on the 1200 Sport 8v?
Yes Dave but its expensive to do it off your own bat. Prices vary wildly for parts between different markets. For instance a driveshaft for a CARC bike retails for $900 here, in the USA it retails for $199. Why? I have no idea!
Over here my kit cost me over $1,400 and that's trade. Retail its over $1,800! It may well be cheaper elsewhere.
The thing is though that if you live in the right climate, don't often ride in the wet and thrash the living bejasus out of your flat tappet 8V at least once a week it will probably last forever. Mine shows no signs of going udders skywards after 70,000km but in parts of Europe particularly bikes were regularly failing sometimes as early as 2,000 miles. I can't say with 100% certainty that those are the causes, (Short trips, damp climate, poor maintenance.) but the logic stacks up so well I'll run with it.
As it is any flat tappet bike that fails will be supplied with the 'Upgrade' kit for free. If the failure occurs within warranty its entirely covered but even out of warranty, at the factory's discretion, the parts will be supplied but labour has to be paid for.
Why did I choose to buy my kit rather than waiting, probably in vain, for mine to fail? Three reasons really.
1.) Because I can and can afford to. Something that many owners can't. As such it is a way of putting people's minds at rest and if I can help lay to rest the 'Sky is falling!' Idea that the wonderful 8V engine is somehow a plague ridden monster to be avoided at all cost I'm happy to do it.
2.) Because as a service agent I want to be not only on top of my game but ahead of it. I'd prefer to learn about shit in my own bike than screw around with stuff on my customers' machines.
3.) Because the change from flat to roller tappets requires entirely different cam profiles, (And a few other changes.) but the factory still specifies the GRS8V03 map for fuelling. I want to see exactly what changes there are to the way the engine pumps purely for my own inquisitive nature.
I suppose there is also a forth reason in that I'd really like to stop my bike making a noise like an eighteenth century stamping mill! It is just stupidly mechanically noisy! The roller tappet bikes are a lot quieter. I've had blokes on Japanese and German bikes tell me I need to take my bike to a mechanic because its obviously horribly broken! ;D Its not, but especially in hot weather I can understand why they might think it is!!!
Pete
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For the 1200 sport 8V comes a kit D made for that. Prices from the kit very widely, depending on type, and have no relation to the parts inside.
kit A USD 999,38
kit B USD 754,00
Kit C USD 1.456,00
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Hadn't heard about the 'D' kit. Must be due to different cam profiles. Mark and I are trying to build a map for the 1200-8V at the moment and its being a real headache....
No idea why, yet!
Pete
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Well my kit arrived. This is the 'C' kit for early A5 motors. It requires the removal of the heads to shim the valve springs which is a bore. Its also a sort of weird hybrid as it contains rocker carriers/camboxes that are machined so you can use the early rocker covers which is a bore. I would of though it would of been a lot simpler to just replace the rocker carriers and covers to keep parts selection easy.
New cambox.
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5484/14070401304_de7702d3e9.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/44512000@N00/14070401304/)
The 'Pads' that go into the rockers to cope with their radial movement.
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7041/14046824546_8ff801ed28.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/44512000@N00/14046824546/)
They fit on the roller tappets like so.
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5168/13883328039_f7ccab27b2.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/44512000@N00/13883328039/)
Scrappy pic of the rollers, sorry, I'm not going to take the cambox apart, you need a special tool to reassemble it, I don't have one yet.
(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2904/14069916645_a2eb7258e4.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/44512000@N00/14069916645/)
Pete
Pete: Where do those little black pressed tin things , beside the spherical "pads", go for the install?
Thanks,
SJ
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Earthing tangs.
Pete
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I suppose there is also a forth reason in that I'd really like to stop my bike making a noise like an eighteenth century stamping mill! It is just stupidly mechanically noisy! The roller tappet bikes are a lot quieter. I've had blokes on Japanese and German bikes tell me I need to take my bike to a mechanic because its obviously horribly broken! ;D Its not, but especially in hot weather I can understand why they might think it is!!!
Pete
Hope the noise stopped, bet you question how anyone rode such a thing now, people did say
There is a lot of horseshit talked about the flat tappet engines. Failures are generally dependent on two factors which I've covered many times. Poor servicing and use.
If you live in a cool, damp environment and mainly do short trips you will be more at risk of failure than if you do long trips and rarely ride in the rain. My explanation of the reasons for this has been posted many times before and should be easily searchable here and on other forums.
Of course if whoever services it doesn't have a clue all bets are off.
Pete
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I have a 2010 Stelvio and I am just learning about the flat tappet problem. I only have 4200 miles on it. It has been meticulously kept in a dehumidified garage. Unfortunately, I don't have much time to ride, but when I do I usually ride about 100 miles per trip. I have used the factory recommended oil. I live in South Florida in a hot, humid environment. Do think I have to have the conversion done now or is there a chance I can get some miles out of it without damaging the engine? Thank you for your input.
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They probably just starting to wear, that is where you can see it. They all need to be fixed. The thing is that Guzzi won't fix unless they show it. Seen them and changed them at all different mileages. I'd head to Miami.
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I have a 2010 Stelvio and I am just learning about the flat tappet problem. I only have 4200 miles on it. It has been meticulously kept in a dehumidified garage. Unfortunately, I don't have much time to ride, but when I do I usually ride about 100 miles per trip. I have used the factory recommended oil. I live in South Florida in a hot, humid environment. Do think I have to have the conversion done now or is there a chance I can get some miles out of it without damaging the engine? Thank you for your input.
I have a 2009 and knowing what I know now, I wouldn't ride the bike another mile without fixing it. You really don't know what state your tappets are in. Some are worn out in 4000 miles; some (like mine) went almost 40,000 miles and were just starting to go.
When they fail, they shed hardened bits of tappet-facing into your oil stream, into the bearings and pump and everywhere else, and then your motor is hosed. The only way of detecting that it's happening is by measuring the valve lash - but unfortunately, by the time you're measuring increasing valve lash, you've already got hardened shrapnel in your oil.
There are hundreds of people now that have gone through the experience - were I you, I'd take advantage of what they've learned and just get it sorted without having to wonder.
You need a good dealer to work with, because only through a dealer and their documentation of the state of the tappets will Moto Guzzi supply you the $1400 kit to fix the issue. You can do it yourself following Pete R.'s photo-documentation of the process, or pay a shop about $700 to do it for you.
Lannis
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I was talking to my Brother the machine shop owner about EDM ing a pocket into the rocker arm and dropping a bearing into the pocket. He said the pocket would have to be polished to prevent erosion/wear. Sound like a much easier approach.
What happens when you lose a ball into the head or crankcase?
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It's not the rockers that wear, it's the tappets. The only viable fix is Rollerisation.
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I have a 2009 and knowing what I know now, I wouldn't ride the bike another mile without fixing it. You really don't know what state your tappets are in. Some are worn out in 4000 miles; some (like mine) went almost 40,000 miles and were just starting to go.
When they fail, they shed hardened bits of tappet-facing into your oil stream, into the bearings and pump and everywhere else, and then your motor is hosed. The only way of detecting that it's happening is by measuring the valve lash - but unfortunately, by the time you're measuring increasing valve lash, you've already got hardened shrapnel in your oil.
There are hundreds of people now that have gone through the experience - were I you, I'd take advantage of what they've learned and just get it sorted without having to wonder.
You need a good dealer to work with, because only through a dealer and their documentation of the state of the tappets will Moto Guzzi supply you the $1400 kit to fix the issue. You can do it yourself following Pete R.'s photo-documentation of the process, or pay a shop about $700 to do it for you.
Lannis
Thanks for the good advice. Unfortunately, the dealers I've spoken to don't seem to have a clue about the roller tappet conversion and I don't feel comfortable doing the conversion myself. Do you know of any youtube videos I can watch?
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Thanks for the good advice. Unfortunately, the dealers I've spoken to don't seem to have a clue about the roller tappet conversion and I don't feel comfortable doing the conversion myself. Do you know of any youtube videos I can watch?
Some dealers are much better than others. Where are you located?
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Yes, Pete did make video didn't he? Was about 15min long.
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The vid I did was simply to show how easy it was to inspect them. John Burgess was told $2000 to inspect. It took me 13 minutes to get the cambox disassembled on the bench! I wish I could get paid $1000 per hour! (I only did the LH side for the vid.)
I have done a fAirly long photoessay on it though.
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Pete has a Master's in rollerization and can do it 3x faster than most other mechanics plus identified the entire issue before the factory could figure out what happened. So that leaves us with the following facts that I have seen;
1. Every DLC flat tappet replaced under warranty will be granted a continuation warranty by Piaggio USA provided you have some documentation of previous service and are very persistant. This applies to parts only and you foot the bill. Pretty fair if you have a good dealer.
2. The labor is varying widely among dealers especially if they have no prior experience with the issue. They might even declare it to be normal wear and give a half-assed attempt to get the roller parts authorized. As a rule of thumb 4-6 hours for A or B kit and 6-10 hours for a C kit requiring head removal. Extra cost for severe carnage requiring sump drop and backflushing the oil cooler.
3. Moto Guzzi should have hired Pete in 2007 to help validate the design of 8V engines and saved us all a lot of grief and money!
4. Rollerise your bike expense be damned and enjoy the best retro bike that has still not been given proper credit for excellent handling and power characteristics while being very simply maintained. Or just buy a later model bike and have a great ride.
Just my 2 cents 😁
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Actually John I was part of the problem. I defended the flat tappet design for a very long time because I wasn't seeing any failures on bikes I'd serviced from new. The problem was that they were failing, just not catastrophically enough for the failure to be evident. They don't start making a noise or behaving noticeably badly until all the DLC is gone and the parent metal of the tappet starts degrading. It wasn't until I started seeing problems on bikes I'd serviced from new in about 2013 that I instituted my 'Inspect every one' policy and discovered how wrong I had been.
I've been trying to atone for that mistake by informing every owner I can about the problem and how one should address it. That's the difference between an adult and a child though. Being able to admit you are wrong is not something to be ashamed of. Resolutely continuing to try and maintain an untruth really isn't.........
Pete
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Sometimes the road to Damascus can be a long one Pete.
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I would be calling ea dealer in FL and asking them Q's. The regional tech for this area lives right down the road from me, if they have a problem the techs call him.
You COULD call the 800 ph no and complain, see if it does any good.
If they work on BMW's/Duc's they should be able to do the rollerization in record time.
Have them look up Technical Bulletin #2014-004
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Being able to admit you are wrong is not something to be ashamed of. Resolutely continuing to try and maintain an untruth really isn't.........
It takes a big man to say that.. but you *are* a big bugger. :cool: :grin:
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Some dealers are much better than others. Where are you located?
I'm near West Palm Beach, Florida
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I would call the dealer in Miami, they should be pretty well versed at it by now.
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What Pete Roper said. If you plan to keep the bike go ahead and get it done. Did mine myself, couldn't be happier. :popcorn:
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I talked to the people in Miami and they didn't seem to know what I was talking about. They wanted to charge me a minimum of $500 to inspect the tappets.
I called Cycles of Jacksonville. They said they had done a couple of griso's so I trailered the bike 4 1/2 hours up there. Even then I had to explain that the cam box had to come out and I showed them Pete Roper's video. Here are some photos of what the tappets looked like after only 4500 miles. The dealer is filing a claim with Piaggio. Hopefully, all will go well.
(http://thumb.ibb.co/hSSEsn/Screen_Shot_2018_03_06_at_9_03_22_PM.png) (http://ibb.co/hSSEsn)
(http://thumb.ibb.co/eUDnCn/Screen_Shot_2018_03_06_at_9_03_33_PM.png) (http://ibb.co/eUDnCn)
(http://thumb.ibb.co/dwvZsn/Screen_Shot_2018_03_06_at_9_03_41_PM.png) (http://ibb.co/dwvZsn)
(http://thumb.ibb.co/kskdJS/Screen_Shot_2018_03_06_at_9_03_49_PM.png) (http://ibb.co/kskdJS)
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You got trouble.. right there in river city..
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I talked to the people in Miami and they didn't seem to know what I was talking about. They wanted to charge me a minimum of $500 to inspect the tappets.
I called Cycles of Jacksonville. They said they had done a couple of griso's so I trailered the bike 4 1/2 hours up there. Even then I had to explain that the cam box had to come out and I showed them Pete Roper's video.
That's incredible. The degree of ignorance and incompetence among some people who call themselves "dealers" and "professionals" is appalling. How could someone call themselves a "Moto Guzzi Dealer" in the year 2018 and not know these things?
My dealer did a great job on mine. I don't know whether they already knew what to do or if they learned as they went along, as I think mine was the first one they ever did, but they:
1) Assured me they would take care of the problem.
2) Dealt with Guzzi and hammered them into submission even though the tappets were only discolored and not missing any material yet, and got the kit at no cost to me.
3) Fixed it on budget and on schedule, followed up to make sure it was good, and 7000 miles later it's running like a big Italian sewing machine.
ANY dealer COULD do that; but they have to care about doing a good job for you, and some of them obviously don't care, they just cash checks ....
Lannis
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I think a lot of dealers would look at those tappets and not think anything was wrong. Just one spec of DLC missing is a failure.
I had one fellow argue with me that it was all BS and there was no problem. The ignorant abound.
Excellent work by this dealer to get this sorted for you.
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I think a lot of dealers would look at those tappets and not think anything was wrong. Just one spec of DLC missing is a failure.
But where do these guys live, in a glass bell jar or something? Sure, before they started failing, 'cause how do you know what you don't know?
But NOW, when it's been shown that Every ... Single .... 2008 - 2012 8-valver over a certain mileage has failed? One skim over this list, one look at Guzzi service advice (or whatever they call them), even one discussion with someone who's literate about Guzzis would tell them to WATCH OUT! Not just say "Duh, really, dude?"
Lannis
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Excellent, the vid should at least convince people that pulling a cambox is NOT a $500 job!
I mean? It's a Moto Guzzi FFS! How hard can it be???
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That's incredible. The degree of ignorance and incompetence among some people who call themselves "dealers" and "professionals" is appalling. How could someone call themselves a "Moto Guzzi Dealer" in the year 2018 and not know these things?
My dealer did a great job on mine. I don't know whether they already knew what to do or if they learned as they went along, as I think mine was the first one they ever did, but they:
1) Assured me they would take care of the problem.
2) Dealt with Guzzi and hammered them into submission even though the tappets were only discolored and not missing any material yet, and got the kit at no cost to me.
3) Fixed it on budget and on schedule, followed up to make sure it was good, and 7000 miles later it's running like a big Italian sewing machine.
ANY dealer COULD do that; but they have to care about doing a good job for you, and some of them obviously don't care, they just cash checks ....
Lannis
So far my dealer has been great. I think they too are sort of learning as they go, but they promised to do whatever I wanted them to do. They said they had inspected some Griso's in the past, however, when I got there the mechanic told me that both Grisos checked out ok. Knowing what we all know now, if the Grisos he inspected had as little as a few thousand miles on them, I would think they would have shown some wear on the DLC coating. That's why I insisted they show me actual pictures of the tappets just to make sure they weren't just checking valve clearances. I have to admit they have been good to work with and they assured me they would do everything possible to get Piaggio to step up to the plate. I think the problem here in Florida is every single dealer I spoke with (there are 5 of them) sell Guzzi's as sort of a side line. One dealer told me he was not very familiar with Guzzi's and he has only one wrench that works on them. The showrooms are full of Honda's, Yamaha's Ducati's and Triumph's but if you look in the corner you may see 2 or 3 Guzzi's. Lets face it, Guzzi's are few and far between and thats why we love them....
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Excellent, the vid should at least convince people that pulling a cambox is NOT a $500 job!
I mean? It's a Moto Guzzi FFS! How hard can it be???
I trust your advice on this much more than that VascoDG guy!! :grin:
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A huge thank you to Pete Roper for taking the time to share his knowledge and experience. The information that you have shared has been a tremendous help with regard to the flat tappet issue.
Thanks Pete!!!
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So far my dealer has been great. I think they too are sort of learning as they go, but they promised to do whatever I wanted them to do. They said they had inspected some Griso's in the past, however, when I got there the mechanic told me that both Grisos checked out ok. Knowing what we all know now, if the Grisos he inspected had as little as a few thousand miles on them, I would think they would have shown some wear on the DLC coating. That's why I insisted they show me actual pictures of the tappets just to make sure they weren't just checking valve clearances. I have to admit they have been good to work with and they assured me they would do everything possible to get Piaggio to step up to the plate. I think the problem here in Florida is every single dealer I spoke with (there are 5 of them) sell Guzzi's as sort of a side line. One dealer told me he was not very familiar with Guzzi's and he has only one wrench that works on them. The showrooms are full of Honda's, Yamaha's Ducati's and Triumph's but if you look in the corner you may see 2 or 3 Guzzi's. Lets face it, Guzzi's are few and far between and thats why we love them....
Well, it's a credit to you that you're working with your dealer in that way. But if I hung out my shingle as a doctor, and a patient came in with appendicitis, and the patient had to show the doctor where to cut and where to look up what an appendix was ... I'd say the doctor didn't have any business calling himself one.
Any job I took on in my life, I busted my arse to learn EVERYTHING there was to know about it. I didn't tell my customers "Well, I know I'm supposed to be the expert, but you'll have to help me with that because I don't do the research to get good at what I do for a living."
They just shouldn't be hanging out Moto Guzzi dealer signs if they know less about Moto Guzzis than people who scan this very list a couple times a week .... !
But ... you've noticed that moaning about it won't get you back on the road, so good luck and happy fixin'!
Lannis
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Thanks Lannis!
You have also been a great help...
I agree 100% but as you say the goal is to get back on the bike and hopefully have Piaggio share in the process. If that happens and my dealer gets the bike back together again I will be a happy camper. If all goes well I'll be showing the Guzzi to all the Harley folks on the Lake Okeechobee locks in a week or two... :wink:
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We had an MV in last week. That was fun. Shit those things sound angry! No biggie but really it too is essentially two wheels and a horn.
No, we don't have a shim kit for it or any, if needed, I dunno, special tools but it came in because it's clutch was dragging and the owner, (Dave, the squeeze of the lovely Stacey who works at the top pub.) had been told by the 'Local' dealer in Canberra that a.) They couldn't look at it for three weeks and b.) it would probably need a new master cylinder which would cost a king's ransom!
He was going to take it up to Sydney to the dealer up there. The shop is on the northside! Two hours through central Sydney with a badly dragging clutch? Bad enough to stall at lights?! How about no. How about get *******!
All it was was the threaded adjuster on the actuating plunger. Same mechanism but slightly different to the system on the CARC bikes. Ten minutes, done! Cost? Two beers!
It's not rocket science!
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I think a lot of dealers would look at those tappets and not think anything was wrong. Just one spec of DLC missing is a failure.
I had one fellow argue with me that it was all BS and there was no problem. The ignorant abound.
Excellent work by this dealer to get this sorted for you.
Sadly, I think that a lot of *Mechanics* wouldn't know tappet damage if you bashed it up their blurters with a Kango hammer. A
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We had an MV in last week. new master cylinder which would cost a king's ransom!...
...All it was was the threaded adjuster on the actuating plunger. Same mechanism but slightly different to the system on the CARC bikes. Ten minutes, done! Cost? Two beers!
It's not rocket science!
Three weeks and $500.
Arse!
and
Win!
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One final thing, and I'm really not 'Big Noting' myself, I probably have as much, if not more experience with this issue than pretty much anyone else who isn't living in a cave and doesn't use the innerneck!
If people have shops that are ignorant, need advice, or simply want reassurance about any aspect of rollerisation or any other aspect of 8V or CARC bike mechanicals they are more than welcome to contact me direct.
motomoda.roper<at>gmail.com or, from overseas, +61 417 462 440. If phoning though please member the world is a globe and there are time zones. I don't respond well to being called in the middle of the night! :violent1: Just remember, if the earth was flat cats would of pushed everything off the edge of it by now!
The CARC bikes, despite their seeming unpopularity, are the current apogee of Guzzi development. Set up right they are a joy. You either 'Get it' or you don't. But they were the last attempt by Guzzi to remain relevant and 'Modern'.
Pete
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"The CARC bikes, despite their seeming unpopularity, are the current apogee of Guzzi development. Set up right they are a joy. You either 'Get it' or you don't. But they were the last attempt by Guzzi to remain relevant and 'Modern."
Pete
Agreed! :thumb:
Bob
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I think a lot of dealers would look at those tappets and not think anything was wrong.
That's my dealer...
My tappets looked a lot like that.
But thanks to you guys, that cleared up this mess, I knew better, and told him, that no way was he putting that sh*t back in...
He sent pics to Piaggio, they owned it and delivered the parts...
All's good - now...
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Piaggio needs to step up here:
Without good customer support, a strong chain of COMPETENT dealerships and customer loyalty, they will never be able to compete with the big Japanese companies or dare I say Harley Davidson...
Harleys are beautiful bikes but IMO certainly not better bikes than MG and Aprilia....yet people are lining up every weekend at the big Harley dealerships to spend their last dollar on a new Street Glide and eat a few hot dogs and hamburgers while picking out a new bike.
Think about it Piaggio!!
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Piaggio needs to step up here:
Without good customer support, a strong chain of COMPETENT dealerships and customer loyalty, they will never be able to compete with the big Japanese companies or dare I say Harley Davidson...
Harleys are beautiful bikes but IMO certainly not better bikes than MG and Aprilia....yet people are lining up every weekend at the big Harley dealerships to spend their last dollar on a new Street Glide and eat a few hot dogs and hamburgers while picking out a new bike.
Think about it Piaggio!!
You're correct. Guzzi will never compete with Honda or Harley. And, they shouldn't try.
How many USA dealers would you want in your "strong chain of COMPETENT dealerships" for a marque which imports about 1,000 units annually into the United States?
Harley-Davidson sold about 170 times that number in The USA during 2017.
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That's normal wear or so I've been told by dealer who shall not be named. Pfft!!! :violent1:
Piaggio will give you the parts. Don't take no for an answer. I had to go to a second dealer to get it done.
I talked to the people in Miami and they didn't seem to know what I was talking about. They wanted to charge me a minimum of $500 to inspect the tappets.
I called Cycles of Jacksonville. They said they had done a couple of griso's so I trailered the bike 4 1/2 hours up there. Even then I had to explain that the cam box had to come out and I showed them Pete Roper's video. Here are some photos of what the tappets looked like after only 4500 miles. The dealer is filing a claim with Piaggio. Hopefully, all will go well.
(http://thumb.ibb.co/hSSEsn/Screen_Shot_2018_03_06_at_9_03_22_PM.png) (http://ibb.co/hSSEsn)
(http://thumb.ibb.co/eUDnCn/Screen_Shot_2018_03_06_at_9_03_33_PM.png) (http://ibb.co/eUDnCn)
(http://thumb.ibb.co/dwvZsn/Screen_Shot_2018_03_06_at_9_03_41_PM.png) (http://ibb.co/dwvZsn)
(http://thumb.ibb.co/kskdJS/Screen_Shot_2018_03_06_at_9_03_49_PM.png) (http://ibb.co/kskdJS)
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You're correct. Guzzi will never compete with Honda or Harley. And, they shouldn't try.
How many USA dealers would you want in your "strong chain of COMPETENT dealerships" for a marque which imports about 1,000 units annually into the United States?
Harley-Davidson sold about 170 times that number in The USA during 2017.
I was referring to Piaggio not just MG but I agree they are a small fraction of the motorcycle market in the States and that isn't a bad thing however it is all the more reason Piaggio should do everything possible to build customer loyalty. I love my Guzzi and the dealer I bought it from was amazing however they closed shop and ever since I have had serious issues with customer support and finding dealers that really know anything about Guzzis. 4 out of 5 approved dealers I spoke with had no idea what I was talking about when I asked about the 8V flat tappet issue. I don't mean to imply that Guzzi should have thousands of dealerships but for a small marque it is essential that the dealers they have be on top of things. As Lannis said, after 10 years of posts about the flat tappet problem how can an approved Guzzi dealer not know all there is to know about the issue. That coupled with the fact that Guzzi didn't step up when this issue first became evident doesn't exactly make folks feel warm and fuzzy about making a second Piaggio purchase.
I didn't mean to imply that Guzzi should try to run HD out of business or become a giant in the industry. That would take away the the fact that they are unique, however, to stay in business they must compete for a small share of that market. To do that they need return customers and good reviews. They won't get either if they don't take care of the customers they have...
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I'm not familiar with the system in the US but over here there are layers of problems. Piaggio's arrogance is at the top of the triangle and then it filters down to the importer, which changes often, and their greed and indifference. That in turn leads to a rapid turnover of dealers and service agents which means in turn that even if the people at the coalface doing the work actually like Guzzis, and most of them don't, thinking them old, slow and weird, they don't get the chance to learn their idiocyncracies or see enough of them to identify *Common* issues.
In reality though apart from the flat tappet issue the 8V bikes are, generally, very reliable. It's stupid crap like bearings not being greased that causes the most problems. Compared to many other marques with far more enviable reputations for *Reliability* I honestly think Guzzi stack up pretty damn well. An awful lot of the work Michael and I do is actually un-buggering the 'Repairs' and 'Tuning' inflicted on the poor things by supposed 'Technicians' and 'Tuners'!
Pete
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That's normal wear or so I've been told by dealer who shall not be named. Pfft!!! :violent1:
Piaggio will give you the parts. Don't take no for an answer. I had to go to a second dealer to get it done.
Incredible! there just isn't any excuse for that kind of ignorance....hats off to you for standing your ground! My dealer has been very good now that they have seen Pete's video so if anyone in the southeast needs to have their 8V rollerized I can point them in the right direction...
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Do remember that the vid just shows removing a cambox. As I said though the other side, which requires removal of the tank, takes about the same time, on a Griso. Some other models take a bit longer because of the amount of bodywork that needs removing and the fact that some of them need the airbox taking out to get to the tensioner plug on the RH side.
With the rollerisation itself if it's an A or B kit bike swapping the camboxes takes not a lot more time than removing them but of course the bike needs tuning and servicing as well when the work is done and as I've said it is my opinion that flushing the sump with a couple of litres of oil is a joke. The sump should be dropped and cleaned out properly.
With C and D kit bikes the heads need to come off and disassembled and that takes more time again. With Stelvios the heads are also bolted to the frame, again, more time.
Really though it's worth doing. Not doing it will reduce your bike to scrap. There's no money to be had in a busted-arsed 8V even if the rest of it is immaculate. The motor is the 'Jewel in the Crown' without that it's worthless.
Pete
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I was referring to Piaggio not just MG but I agree they are a small fraction of the motorcycle market in the States and that isn't a bad thing however it is all the more reason Piaggio should do everything possible to build customer loyalty. I love my Guzzi and the dealer I bought it from was amazing however they closed shop and ever since I have had serious issues with customer support and finding dealers that really know anything about Guzzis. 4 out of 5 approved dealers I spoke with had no idea what I was talking about when I asked about the 8V flat tappet issue. I don't mean to imply that Guzzi should have thousands of dealerships but for a small marque it is essential that the dealers they have be on top of things. As Lannis said, after 10 years of posts about the flat tappet problem how can an approved Guzzi dealer not know all there is to know about the issue. That coupled with the fact that Guzzi didn't step up when this issue first became evident doesn't exactly make folks feel warm and fuzzy about making a second Piaggio purchase.
I didn't mean to imply that Guzzi should try to run HD out of business or become a giant in the industry. That would take away the the fact that they are unique, however, to stay in business they must compete for a small share of that market. To do that they need return customers and good reviews. They won't get either if they don't take care of the customers they have...
Piaggio's dealerships are divided: scooter and motorcycle.
Piaggio's biggest deal is Vespa. Those dealers and their customer base don't really cross over to motorcycles.
I don't see consolidating Piaggio's marques into one set of dealerships.
You may be new to Guzzi. Relatively speaking, Guzzi is doing great right now.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk
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You may be new to Guzzi. Relatively speaking, Guzzi is doing great right now.
This. I think they may even be making a little money. <shrug>
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Piaggio's dealerships are divided: scooter and motorcycle.
Piaggio's biggest deal is Vespa. Those dealers and their customer base don't really cross over to motorcycles.
I don't see consolidating Piaggio's marques into one set of dealerships.
You may be new to Guzzi. Relatively speaking, Guzzi is doing great right now.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk
I'm not exactly new to Moto Guzzi. I remember the BMW/Moto Guzzi shop down the street from my house...that was in the '60s/early '70s. In the mid-late '70's I rode dirt bikes and visited the shop often. Guzzi's were pretty popular then. I admit I don't keep track of Guzzi's financial bottom line, but if they are doing well (and I hope they are), it isn't apparent here in South Florida. One of the largest dealer chains in the area (4 shops) dropped Guzzi in 2010. When I asked why, they explained that Piaggio was a PITA to work with. I know of at least two other dealerships in the southeast that have dropped Moto Guzzi in the past 8 years. I really hope Guzzi is doing well because I love the bike and the brand. Again, my point is Piaggio is trashing their customer loyalty by not standing behind their product as is apparent on this very thread and several others.
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Hey, I worked for Scooter Superstore
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Scooter Superstore, Sounds familiar...where was that??
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This. I think they may even be making a little money. <shrug>
I hope so for local guy Don and his partners that are opening a franchise. For some reason, I am a little doubtful.
OTOH, I was chatting with a guy that had the local Triumph-Suzuki franchise until he told them all to go to hell. And it he says that the manufacturers are making money and the dealers are eating scraps. If you don't believe him, he will tell you to go talk to someone that owned a Victory store. He mentions all the stuff that those dealers had buy from the company before they closed the doors. He just says thy are all a bunch of crooks.
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Scooter Superstore, Sounds familiar...where was that??
My boss Peter was building an empire, 5 shops in FL and 3 in GA Homebase was Hollywood, FL by his huge Hobby Shop
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Was one of the dealerships in the West Palm Beach area?
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Can't remember, Jacksonville, Jacksonville Beach, Daytona Beach, Gainseville, Hollywood, FL/ Atlanta, Norcross, Fairburn, GA
There may have been others in FL.
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Can't remember, Jacksonville, Jacksonville Beach, Daytona Beach, Gainseville, Hollywood, FL/ Atlanta, Norcross, Fairburn, GA
There may have been others in FL.
Sounds very familiar. I was in a scooter shop in Lake Park some time ago. I spoke with the manager who was a Guzzi guy. Nice shop but I can't remember the name...
Anyway I received good news today. My Stelvio is rollerized at last and Piaggio picked up the tab for the parts! The dealer also took care of a couple of recalls that I wasn't aware of. The center stand and a plastic cover for the ECU. These items (according to my dealer) were recall items and that brings up a couple of questions:
1) I have been told the reason the tappet issue wasn't a recall item was because it wasn't considered a safety issue. If that is the case why is the installation of a plastic cover over the ECU considered a recall? Doesn't seem to be any more of a safety issue than a blown engine??
2) How is it I didn't know about either of these recalls? Did i miss something? I'm sure if I received something in the mail from Piaggio I would have opened it right away...
Regardless, I will soon be riding again so all is well!!
That said I will have to wait till next weekend to pick up the bike. Per Pete's advice I asked the shop to pull the sump and clean out any DLC crap laying in the bottom end. It's a shame as I just performed an oil change with eni 10W60 a few days before finding out about the tappet issue.
Don't yet know what the labor cost is going to be after dropping the sump but at least the rollerization is done and my Stelvio should be good to go for years to come.
I really wish piaggio had notified me and everyone else riding a flat tappet 8V about the problem when they first knew about it. If it weren't for all the good folks on the internet I would still be riding my pride and joy and ripping her guts out without even knowing it. What would be the harm in letting everyone know about the problem before they blow up their engines? Just give everyone the the heads up and let them know the policy about providing the kit. Just good PR! I wonder how many other poor folks are out there riding their flat tappet bikes to death without knowing it??!! Damn shame!!
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A lot of this stuff they leave to the dealers to notify the owners. If the dealers don't read the bulletins no one knows.
I know the dealer I worked for got a letter telling them to call all customers of the effected bulletin for V7 fuel tank vapor valve (the blue/yellow one).
If the bike never goes back to a dealer for service or dealer doesn't care how are you to know.
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Exactly! I received a recall notice in the mail for my Kawasaki KLX 250 for a fuel tank issue so why cant Guzzi (Piaggio) do the same? very poor public relations...
I wonder how many folks with blown engines under 10,000 miles will consider another Guzzi??? As much as I love them I will most likely look elsewhere for my next bike. The V85 concept is one of the best looking bikes I've seen in a long time and had it not been for the flat tappet issue on my Stelvio, I would have bought the first v85 that hit south Florida. Sadly the "completely new engine" scares the hell out of me. What Achilles heal will this one have? Nope, I'll ride the wheels off my Stelvio and then mortgage the farm for a grand touring bike....
Oh hell, I say that now but as my better half will attest I am hooked on adventure bikes and nothing has the character of a Guzzi......
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Head and heart...
My head says forget about that new Griso at the dealers. My heart can't let me get over it. Not at all logical, but damn it! :violent1:
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Sounds very familiar. I was in a scooter shop in Lake Park some time ago. I spoke with the manager who was a Guzzi guy. Nice shop but I can't remember the name...
Anyway I received good news today. My Stelvio is rollerized at last and Piaggio picked up the tab for the parts! The dealer also took care of a couple of recalls that I wasn't aware of. The center stand and a plastic cover for the ECU. These items (according to my dealer) were recall items and that brings up a couple of questions:
1) I have been told the reason the tappet issue wasn't a recall item was because it wasn't considered a safety issue. If that is the case why is the installation of a plastic cover over the ECU considered a recall? Doesn't seem to be any more of a safety issue than a blown engine??
2) How is it I didn't know about either of these recalls? Did i miss something? I'm sure if I received something in the mail from Piaggio I would have opened it right away...
Regardless, I will soon be riding again so all is well!!
That said I will have to wait till next weekend to pick up the bike. Per Pete's advice I asked the shop to pull the sump and clean out any DLC crap laying in the bottom end. It's a shame as I just performed an oil change with eni 10W60 a few days before finding out about the tappet issue.
Don't yet know what the labor cost is going to be after dropping the sump but at least the rollerization is done and my Stelvio should be good to go for years to come.
I really wish piaggio had notified me and everyone else riding a flat tappet 8V about the problem when they first knew about it. If it weren't for all the good folks on the internet I would still be riding my pride and joy and ripping her guts out without even knowing it. What would be the harm in letting everyone know about the problem before they blow up their engines? Just give everyone the the heads up and let them know the policy about providing the kit. Just good PR! I wonder how many other poor folks are out there riding their flat tappet bikes to death without knowing it??!! Damn shame!!
The reason why an ECU cover was a recall and the flat tappet issue wasn't is obvious. An ECU cover is CHEAP!
The cost of doing the right thing with the flat tappet fiasco would of cost a Piaggio suit his annual bonus. Was never going to happen! :rolleyes:
Pete
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Head and heart...
My head says forget about that new Griso at the dealers. My heart can't let me get over it. Not at all logical, but damn it! :violent1:
We're about to get a local dealer. Jus sayin' :evil:
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The reason why an ECU cover was a recall and the flat tappet issue wasn't is obvious. An ECU cover is CHEAP!
The cost of doing the right thing with the flat tappet fiasco would of cost a Piaggio suit his annual bonus. Was never going to happen! :rolleyes:
Pete
Yep!
Just what I was thinking!!! Hats off to you and everyone else getting the word out! If Paiggio has to cough up for enough roller kits it may still cost that suit his bonus.... The best way to get any justice for the customers is to do exactly what you are doing. Getting the word out and inspecting every flat tappet bike that comes into your shop. It would be great if dealers here would follow your example!
Pete,
Looking at the pictures of the tappets in my bike do you think I caught the the problem in time??